Petition for The Coalition to Reconsider FTTH

There's an online (yes, I know) petition doing the rounds. Normally I wouldn't waste my time with these things, but this one was only started 2-3 days ago and is already at >96,000 signatories. Just to send a message, would you guys mind signing?

Tony Abbott
Malcolm Turnbull
The Liberal Party of Australia
The Senate
Reconsider your plan for a 'FTTN' NBN in favour of a superior 'FTTH' NBN.

More info at:…
[Your name]


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  • +7


  • +1

    what happen to customer already has NBN ?

    • +1

      Then they're lucky. Especially the ones who buy houses that are already connected to the NBN via FTTH.

      • woahh im lucky. moorebank nsw

      • People should start listing this "Already connected to NBN" as a feature of the house in real estate advertisements. That will increase the value of the house.

  • +8

    Signed….Technology is growing rapidly and I believed FTTH is a must!!

    • +24

      Umm you do realise that it's not that site itself that creates these petitions? They are created by users, who are free to create what ever petition they like whether it be against a left leaning government policy or a right leaning government policy.

      • +21

        Agreed. Hell, the creator of the petition is a Liberal voter. Just because the policy was created by Labor doesn't mean that the Liberals should oppose it. This is the future of Australia's communications network and should have bipartisan support to transcend petty politics.

        Also, its reached 100k!

        • +6

          Why not start a petition yourself* if you feel that strongly about an issue? Otherwise the presence or absence of a given issue on a user initiated petition site simply reflects the interest or apathy users feel about the issue, or perhaps their willingness to use that way of drawing attention to the issue. You'd have to ask the (potential) petitioners.

          * E.g. put up a "FTTN is sufficient, don't waste money" petition and see you are blocked to test your theory.

        • +3

          I still question why there was no "stop carbon tax" petition, considering that there is/was such animosity towards that policy.

          Maybe not as many people agree with you as you thing? I sure don't. Try a petition and see if you are all that correct.

        • +2

          This is democracy and you can petition all you want, but remember this,

          Gillard promised there won't be a carbon tax under a govt I lead, and she gave us the Carbon tax.

          Abbot promised FTTN, repeal of carbon tax , and we as a country elected him with a thumping mandate.

 , Getup are the big and popular Leftie websites, and is a similar the Right leaning website. Left has a lead on the right in general online campaigning and petitions.

          Also demographically there are more of left in General active(including on Ozbargain) on social media and online, so while you may not like FTTN, remember that Tony got voted in with that as a promise.

          This is also why Stop the carbon tax is unlikely to gain much support online, however it did gain support in the Poll that Matters.

        • Well put Gp, I'll just add another point..

          Otherwise the presence or absence of a given issue on a user initiated petition site simply reflects the

          nature of the audience(left leaning) and as a result the nature of the site Leftist.

        • What an idiot he is voting Liberal then whining about this?

    • +6

      mick123, you don't get it. Petitions are put up by users, not the site. In fact the site is based in the US, but anybody in the world can start a petition. This is a progressive petition. I don't give a fsck who implements FTTH, it's the superior proposal, no matter who came up with it.

      But you might have to unsubscribe from email from later. That's no biggie.

      • +7

        As a country we CHOSE FTTN by electing LIBERALS.

        I like your black and white world, that one has to agree with every policy that the ruling party proposes. Nick Paine certainly doesn't fit in your world view.

        • -1

          well Gp, if we are talking about that website, I bet there is not a single popular petition there supporting Liberal policies. So it does make it a leftist website, may not be by intent but by actions.

          Ofcourse we can disagree and there is space for that, the point is Australians had a choice and gave a mandate to Tony and his Team to do certain things, among those was FTTN, This petition simply goes against that clear mandate.

        • +2

          The guy who made the petition is a Liberal supporter.

        • That's too absolute. A mandate is not carte blanche to do anything. There is always room for disagreement and change of mind. Otherwise democracy is a farce with this kind of non-participation, a blank check to do anything for the next 3-4 years.

        • A mandate is not carte blanche to do anything.

          I agree, it is not, It is an implicit agreement with the electorate to do what you promised before the election, in this case FTTN

        • Tony Abbott also thinks we vote for candidates based on sex appeal but I'm pretty sure people actually vote on how they think the policies of that candidate will affect their life not their *bleeping libido.

        • The guy who made the petition is a Liberal supporter.

          If he's a Liberal then I am a Greens Supporter :-)

      • Dealman it's unfortunate that your judgements on technology policies are coloured by your right wing party beliefs. The fact is, the NBN is not a left wing or right wing issue. It's a piece of critical national infrastructure. Would you call building an airport or a national highway a left wing policy or a right wing policy? Of course not. In the same vein, the NBN being played up as a left wing policy is sadly misguided, and it's in the nation's best interests to build critical infrastructure rather than let it become collateral in the battle between Labor and Liberal.

        "IF you want FTTH Vote Labor,
        IF you want FTTN Vote Liberal,

        As a country we CHOSE FTTN by electing LIBERALS."

        I wasn't aware the election was based solely on the NBN issue. Even if people voted for Liberals, they can appreciate that Labor had the superior policy, hence why this petition was started by a Liberal voter.

        PS: You're welcome to start right wing petitions on if you believe that the right wing is not being properly represented online.

        • +1

          Cheng mate, it's all good mate, regarding beliefs I love tech as much as the other guy, Love the gadgets, Pay from my pocket for Optus premium speed pack, have all the gadgets like every other Ozbnr… so not as much of a Right wing luddite as you might think.

          Where we disagree is priorities, I just don't think considering our finances as a Nation, the most important thing we need is FTTH. If we had the money I'd love FTTH, just not now.

          I'd rather take FTTN + spend the money saved on

          a greater investment in defence
          better healthcare for the elderly
          paying off the debt.

        • +2

          Healthcare, education and affordable housing should always be our #1 priorities.

        • Fair enough, I can see your point about budget concerns and like others have said, the nation's budget is not a zero sum game. Spending money on healthcare and education does not mean that there is no money left to spend on infrastructure like telecommunications or high speed rail, and that's not counting the benefits it'll bring to Australia's economy in the future. Hopefully Abbott and Turnbull will see its importance rather than reject it because it's a Labor policy, or because they must fulfil their election promises.

          What I can't stand are the people who don't see the bigger picture. These are the ones who say "oh it's good enough" or "it's only going to be useful for downloading porn faster." Sure it's fast enough now, but who knows what the future will require. It's like building a highway that's only 2 lanes wide because it's good enough now. It doesn't take into account the future requirements of the country.

          I hope Abbott and Turnbull takes another look at the budget and reconsider this project as a priority rather than a second or third tier project.

        • double post

        • also can you imagine that when the copper network was built they only built it to the the local public phone box and not to households because the mail system was seen as adequate for communications…lol

        • +1

          also can you imagine that when the copper network was built they only built it to the the local public phone box

          Funny that, it was always done that way my friend, they were called telegraph lines,
          and they only linked up post boxes / light houses and other such places, not to individual houses :-)

          I'd be all for FTTH , if only there was a cost benefit analysis done or if it was not done on tax payer money, user pays !

        • So I imagine there was a similar outcry when they decided to ditch telegraph wires and lay copper wire to households then? I wonder if I can find the cost benefit analysis for that infrastructure project.

      • It's funny that the nationals back FTTH… But they are too gutless to actually have a say against the liberals.

  • +3

    Signed and shared on facebook…thanks for the heads up.

  • -2

    It is a nice thing to have, fibreglass all the way. But one way or the other it has to be paid for, and since this is governement planned, implemented and orgaized, it is garanteed overpriced. I think with 1MB download I am quite happy. and would prefer they save the money.

    • +6

      Fibreglass all the way? What, are you building a boat?

      • +1

        The internet is a series of tubes, fibreglass tubes.

  • +1

    Apparently, the current roll out of the NBN has a 16% take up rate. That is, 16% of homes that it passes have installed it. If the NBN is so important, why is there such a low take up rate?

    Also, if a fibre internet connection to your premises is important to certain people and businesses, what is wrong with paying for the "last mile" of cabling yourself? Why should the government not provide a fast backbone and if the connectivity is of vital importance, the end user pay for the final piece of infrastructure?

    These are genuine questions I would like answered and am happy to change my view if there is a reasonable cause to.

    • +2

      One reason is "Rental/Investment" property; the owner does not live in the property, so why connect?

      Another reason might be "Plans start from as little as $30 a month for a 12 megabits per second (Mbps) download speed and one Mbps upload service with a 15 gigabyte (GB) monthly data allowance."
      With TPG UNLIMETED DATA, a verified (yesterday) 1 MByte download, incl phone for 69$

      • That is a good point regarding the rental property. I am not sure what the rest of your post is referring to though.

        • He means to say you can get unlimited ADSL internet for $70 per month, including phone. Which represents the best value ADSL2+ plan that you can get for the moment, assuming you live within an area that is serviced by TPG ADSL.

          Let's compare plans. Say an average family of 3 wishes to connect to the internet. They have a $60 per month budget. They consider two plans:

          NBN Silver 30 (Tier 2 25MBPS) gives you 30 gigabytes of downloads per month, and the modem costs you $249 upfront.

          TPG 500GB Bundle gets you 250+250GB of downloads per month, and the modem costs you $99 upfront.

          For $70 per month, you can upgrade the plan to TPG Unlimited bundle, and download all you want.

          30GB a month is pretty measly… and at 25mbps speeds it doesn't even take half a day to exceed the monthly limit. You can see why NBN take-up is so low. Its fast… but it's stupidly expensive per GB.

        • -1

          Your looking at the wrong plans, both NBNsp which is unlimited, at 60 per month for 12/1 and 80 for 25/5

          Regardless after a suburb is passed through, in 18 months the copper is decommissioned, meaning they have to go to NBN regardless.

          That being said, once you move into the 100-110 range your value for money is pretty decent, you can get 100/40 with 2tb downloads + unlimited upload and option for static ip for 104 a month, extel offer 250gb peak, unlimited offpeak and unlimited uploads thats 105 a month, NBNsp 100 a month for 100/40 unlimited etc

    • Simply put, fibre plans are not good value at this stage. The download quota is too little and with a fast download speed it's easy to blow your download limits.

      • Is there reason to think they will get better value? There should not really be any economies of scale for a government project. The price now should be the price at the end of the project.

        • +1

          There should not really be any economies of scale for a government project. The price now should be the price at the end of the project.

          You're not getting your internet service directly from the government, are you? It's not a monopoly. Telstra, Optus, Iinet are all resellers of the fiber network and there is fair competition to keep prices in check. The prices will also adjust over time due to supply and demand — the more people have access to the NBN the lower the marginal costs.

        • +1

          Come to cairns and show me how I can connect to anybody other than Telstra's backbone. Last time I checked plans on other providers are at least $20 cheaper on their own networks rather than Telstra. Guess who sold our PSTN network to telstra? Coalition.

        • I'm referring to the future when the NBN project is completed. As of right now Telstra has a monopoly on everything Telecoms rrelated in regional areas.

    • +1

      Also, if a fibre internet connection to your premises is important to certain people and businesses, what is wrong with paying for the "last mile" of cabling yourself?

      Becuase the whole point is for everyone to get it. Look up digital divide.

      • +1

        I would says the difference between 100mbps & 20mbps would not be noticeable to most internet users. If the difference is important, why should you not pay for it?

        • +4

          reliability? copper network is aging. Unless they replace all the copper where I live because my ADSL disconnects all the time which is a pain. Can never game online because it keeps on cutting out and you might be winning in a match and boom lost connection :(. Called Telstra multiple times and they send someone out who say they cannot do anything. Even call quality is very low with crackles more so when it has rained.

          Also future proof, 100mbps maximum compared to 1000mbps.
          I did read that there is 1gbps possible under test conditions for copper but I also read 10gbps for fiber is possible with only upgraded hardware on each end.

          Then there is the ongoing cost of replacing backup batteries at each node every 3 years. Having to fix up the work of vandals, and having those ugly refrigerator sized boxes everywhere. Cannot forget to mention the extra power usage required by each of the nodes.

          To spend 25 billion on Fibre to the Node does feel a bit wasteful to me. When for 15 billion or so extra you can get so much more and won't need to upgrade it 10 years down the track when things like 4K TV become the norm.

          One thing that has interested me is the reliability to run medical and remote diagnosing equipment on Fiber.

          I don't quite care about speed either. But I really care about reliability.
          I also cannot forget I really hate Telstra having the market share of the other proposed networks.

          I still do feel like upload speed could do with an improvement and would look towards getting a 50/20 plan. That way I can send projects to friends for their help easily and it makes it easier if everyone had the same network. This digital divide would cause many to be on the slower, less reliable network and if I paid the approx $3000 under liberals plan to still get fiber none of my friends/colleagues would have the same connection so it wouldn't be worth it. Putting Australia way behind.

          I think Australia really needs this. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.

          I did read 2-3rds surveyed supported the faster NBN. But many voted liberal because labors other polices where getting out of hand and not very well executed.

        • I did read that there is 1gbps possible under test conditions for copper but I also read 10gbps for fiber is possible with only upgraded hardware on each end.

          1tbps is the current limit for fibre. 1gbps is in active use in many cities around the world. 'Copper' can do 40gbps (or more), but NOT on the existing cables that we have in Australia, which is the big issue.

          Seeing as people didn't understand the digital divide problem I will explain it:

          1: Applications will not be built (or not take off) if they need more bandwidth and only a small percentage of people have it.

          2: Those applications that do will be restricted to those that can run it, cutting off the other people (usually the poor). This problem only gets worse, as each group starts using different services and stop communicating with each other.

        • +2

          I just wanted to say, there is a large majority of us not even getting 10mbps, I for one am getting 5..

          Now if you consider 5mbps to 100mbps, i'm sure you will have a different opinion

    • +5

      put simply people are not machines, and often fail to do things that are in their best interests. This is due inpart to short sightedness, lack of data and a lack of imagination.

      People in this country see the government not only a regulator of society as it is today, but also a guiding hand for the future. If there is a way for the government to invest $1 of taxpayer money today, and see a return to society of $2 tomorrow, then most people would consider that to be money well spent. The $2 won't be in direct remuneration to the spender, which is why few individuals will do it, and will occur over a much longer time frame than most are comfortable with (in this case decades). Governments can also function to break the chicken-egg cycle, to allow developers to create products without worrying if there's a market for it.

      There's also the argument of volume discount, but that probably gets cancelled out by bureaucratic inefficiencies and low scale corruption.

      You can use most of the same arguments for roads. Imagine if you had to pay for the 'last mile' to your house. Would you bother, or argue that the dirt road you already have works just fine? How many people would even consider things like the amount of petrol saved or the decreased risk of an accident?

  • +2

    I found this to be an excellent video outlining the huge benefits of FTTH over FTTN (pre-election).

      • At least we have a health care system. As a country we are in the top 5 in terms of economic standing and living standards.
        It would be better to scrap the NBN completely than waste time, money and resources installing an obsolete service like FTTN.

      • +12

        As a country We are mortgaged to the hilt.

        As a country we have one of the lowest debt-to-GDP ratios of any nation in the world.

        • +10

          how did he tweak any figures? the debt-to-GDP ratio is one of the best indicators of an economy's ability to service its debt. following your logic then, america would be bankrupt 500 times over, to use your mannerism of speech. you've shown us not only have you no understanding of basic economic principles but also unable to see past your presumptions and prejudices even when facts are presented to you

    • Thanks for the video link.
      I just watched it.

      What I don't understand is how the speed could continually drop (FTTN) as it gets further from the node.
      I would expect a similar flat grap to FTTH but obvioulsy at a lower speed as there is copper from the node.
      I thought the copper part would be the limiting part, then if the fibre part was 1 meter or a kilometer away, i would expect similar speeds….
      I must be missing something….

      I was just explaining it to someone else and just answered my own question.
      Idiot !
      I had the fibre and copper mixed around. (insert forehead slap)

  • -4

    If I start a petition says all Australian should be entitled to free internet access, unlimited download, at
    100mbps in order to eliminate digital disadvantage.

    I bet I will get more signatures than this one, enough said.

    • +1

      That may be true, but this petition isn't asking the government to implement entirely new policy, such as free internet like you said. It's just asking to reinstate policy that had already been approved and had begun to be implemented before the election happened. IMO it's far better to upgrade now and invest for the future rather than having to outlay another huge amount of money in another decade's time to upgrade a system that is nearly obsolete before it's even been put in the ground.

    • +7

      I bet if I created one that said lets deny jayzee any internet access I'd get a few people to vote for it too…you totally are missing the point of this petition

  • +1

    At 200,000 signatures now, and I think it's being hammered because I'm getting an error when I try to sign.

    • It's more likely just you, remember serves many many petitions.

    • +7

      If you had limited finances in your house and had to make a choice

      What if it's not a zero-sum game and you can have more national income if you have modern infrastructure. Or worse, what if the national income falls because we fall behind other developed countries, or we waste money doing things other countries do more efficiently?

      You could get faster internet, Average Australian family

      That gives the impression that that's all the Internet is good for. What about all those SMEs that could benefit from faster speeds? Let them pay you say, but what is the cost of a two-speed or multi-speed Internet infrastructure? Do we end up paying more than providing FTTH for all?

      There are others but these will do for a start.

      I don't have the figures, but I challenge the assumptions hidden in the way you have posed the question.

      • +1

        Re zero sum,
        Well the budget is in deficit now and for the near term forseeable future, so I'd think that does call for lower spending.

        The bulk of the cost of FTT(Home) is in digging up the streets trying to give Faster internet to the average Australian family Home not to the businesses and SMEs.

        If it was just about giving faster internet to businesses as you put it then the cost would be way less, as they are not as spread out and not as much digging would be involved. At that extremely lower cost I'd be all over FTT(SME).

        Ps: However hypothetical it may be you still haven't answered the question :-)

        • +7

          Ps: However hypothetical it may be you still haven't answered the question :-)

          Because the premise is flawed.

          It is like saying: Pick one:

          • Your family will die

          • Support gay marriage

          Which do you pick?

        • +3

          What I'm taking issue is the way you have loaded the question. If you are going to use questionable argument tactics like these why should we believe you over better arguments from studies? And trying to shift the question to me when you haven't convinced us of your assertions is also a dodgy tactic.

    • +2

      Medical care for old people? <MOD - Removed foul language> that I want my yootoobs faster
      Why spend money when they're just going to die anyway


      • +1

        Society advances one funeral at a time.

    • +1

      Never thought Ozbargain would be such an anti-lib site with all the votes comments on quite a few smart comments

      • -1

        Ha ha I found this out the hard way hey :-)

        Votes here don't matter, Atleast the Country voted the RIGHT way :-)

      • are you serious? internet + bargain hunters, how left-leaning can you get?

      • +1

        Not sure how you came to that conclusion over 1 issue. Ozbargain forum members tend to be tech focussed, which is why they'll defend policies that advance technology in Australia. It's ridiculous to extrapolate that support to other anti-Liberal issues such as asylum seekers and the carbon tax.

        But hey, if blindly defending a single piece of Liberal policy simply because Tony Abbott approved it instead of doing your own research is your prerogative, then go ahead. Just don't expect to get any support here.

        • people see what they want to, always have always will

  • Signed!

  • -3

    They might reconsider, if only the previous government who had the FTTH plan hadn't raided the coffers and once that was gone carried on over spending, therefore leaving little wriggle room with regard to this policy, they also committed funding on other expensive but great ideas like the NDIS and Better Schools which effectively means that the countries finances are over-committed beyond even the forward estimates. As with our personal budget we have to economise. The other day I walked into a car showroom to buy a 20 grand car because that's all we can afford, the sales guy showed me flashier, faster and generally better models. I could have given in and blown the budget by committing to a pricier car, but then realised that not only do I pay more money, I also have loan repayments and interest to find. If we carried on with foxtel and dining out as we like to, our finances would become a big problem. I think governments need to live within their means as well and because most western countries have huge debts is not a compelling reason for Australia to take the same path. Remember Government debt = our debt, too many people don't look at it that way.

    Anyway for the bulk of the public, wireless is the future, this might not be apparent in 2013 but by 2020 speeds and latency will be just as good and without all the maintenance.

    • -2

      You do realize tax payers are not actually paying for the NBN don't you? In fact, no tax payer will pay a cent towards it unless you take up the services from it.

      • +3

        Haha yeah and rolling out the NBN cables, paying Telstra 12billion, sending satelites into space, paying contractors etc all comes free like the air you breathe, dream on! If this is not being funded from capital works then the former government were liars by saying it.

  • Any evidence that wireless is going to be the answer in just over six years. The liberals have won the election, so all the bullshit can now be stopped.

    • Yes going by development, demand and take up of the technology over the past six years. Cabled broadband technology has a good 20 year start on wireless. Fibre is not future-proofed nothing is.

      Only history gives evidence!

  • OK, got any links to this invention. Operating a 1,500 billion budget a year cant be compared to the average household budget

    • Which invention? Why don't you consider government debt to be your debt? It's all our debt and when the government announces a 30 billion shortfall in a single fiscal year that equates to $2000 for every adult in Oz, makes you think don't you think! We didn't even get a $900 cheque :o)

      • Why don't you consider government debt to be your debt?

        Because it isn't.

        It's all our debt and when the government announces a 30 billion shortfall in a single fiscal year that equates to $2000 for every adult in Oz, makes you think don't you think!

        It makes me think that is a good investment to prevent a depression.

        • -1

          Why should Australia have a depression in tax year 2012-13, no one else has one apart from perhaps Zimbabwe :o)

          To run up a $30,000,000,000 debt when treasury receipts are 7% up on the previous year is a bit ridiculous. When the mining booms over and treasury receipts grows in line with inflation we're up the swannee with all the commitments incl NBN that have been made. So who pays off a countries accumulated debt, Grandkids? I reckon we should pay for our spending not hope that something - a magic lamp perhaps arrives on the scene to make disappear. Since 2009 only 3 countries have amassed debt faster than Oz - Spain, Slovenia and another. We're a couple of decades away from being a Greece, but they didn't care about debts either at one time.

        • +3

          if i had a dollar for every person that thinks government debt is like their credit card overdraft i could start my own political party and end up with 2 senate seats..

  • I never said that I don't consider gov debt to be my debt. What is it with liberal voters making stuff up. 30 billion is not a large amount for the 6th or 7th biggest economy in the world. Maybe a weeks takings for the economy. You must stop listening to Mr Rabbits falsehoods.

    Fibre optic cable was invented in the 1960s and wireless has been around for much longer than that. The amount of data required for a working NBN cant be handled by wireless. A two story house struggles with wireless. I want the link for your theory of wireless being nearly ready.

    • "I never said that I don't consider gov debt to be my debt", who said you did, I only asked the question? But many can't or won't equate government debt as being theirs.

      "What is it with liberal voters making stuff up" Who's the Liberal voter here? Because I don't agree that a Country as mineral wealthy as ours should be racking up debt, doesn't a Liberal voter one make. We should be able to discuss viewpoints without the making of assumptions or being zealously political.

      "The worlds 6th or 7th largest biggest economy in the world" do you have a link for me?

      Wireless internet was not available in the 1960's. In fact texting via a phone tower didn't arrive until 1997, even by then cabled internet technology was passing from dial-up to cable & adsl. For your info, I get dozens of wireless TV channels, some HD into my home, you should look into it.

      I haven't invented 5G yet, but it's coming, I promise you :o)

      • +1

        Because I don't agree that a Country as mineral wealthy as ours should be racking up debt

        this is gold

  • +3

    signed. Hope others do too just takes a few seconds

  • -1

    i'm confused…. didn't we just have an election? What is this?

    • +9

      It's called democracy, it doesn't end once a new gov't is elected. The gov't wasn't elected on the back of their NBN policy, it was hardly on the radar for the vast majority of voters who really have no idea of the difference between the 2 plans.

      • +5

        Agreed. Malcolm keeps on pretending that we all had an 'informed discussion' on the NBN when the reality is that the voters were just sick of Labor.

        • Well to be fair, what do you expect him to say? He's actually shifting the blame to the party. He's saying, it could be worse if I hadn't salvaged something, you could have ended up with a bunch of cans and string if they had their way. So it's up to the populace to keep nagging away at them.

        • -1

          If he's as good a businessman as he presumes to be, he'll be able to deliver FTTH for $30bn - not that hard. Easy enoguh to put out a retrospective cost benefits analsis justifying it too. He can just say the contracts were in place etc.

          If he can't do this, then he's not a businessman, but a wheeler and dealer.

        • I think when you become a pollie you have to give up even more of what few scruples business people have. ;) But one can hope that he might find a way to sneak it through.

        • This isn't about scruples - the same $30bn the Mad Monk is happy to spend on FTTN could deliver FTTH - you just have to have the right people calling the shots. In my experience, you can cut half of any big corporate's costs (for the same outcome, including staff morale) if you're given the leeway to attack it the right way.

          But I'm not sure Malcolm has any experience in the workings of business - I think he's just a deal maker.

        • +1

          It sure is about scruples, you have to be creative with the truth as a pollie. I think if run as a proper business, you could shave costs as you say, but he can't deviate from the party line. Not at the moment anyway.

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