Are Holden just crap cars? What are my option?

[Deactivated] on 22/10/2013 - 09:28

Hey Ozbargainers,

bought a Holden Astra in 2004. Perfectly serviced and maintained and only driven 84000K's and no accidents ever. Dropped it at service centre at Ferntree Gully Holden only to be advised that the Head Gasket is blown and that a new engine is required. Quote is for $3400 for a second hand engine which has already done 90000K's (more than my current engine). Asked if this is normal with a perfect service history and they said it can happen. Asked what would happen if the recon engine blows after another 5K given it has already done 90K's and the built of the Astra engine seem like a shit engine given my current position? Again I was advised that it could happen. To be honest I have to admit that the staff at Ferntree Gully Holden are great and Matt has been super helpful but the car is just a piece of crap it seems. To add to my mysery I asked what I would get on the trade in and they advised $500 and if I spend $3400 and it fixed first I would get $2000. Is this stupid or what? Does anyone know if there is anyway I can escalate this matter and have have someone at Holden take accountability for the crap the sell. To put it into perspective I have another Mercedes C180 1998 model and it has done 3 times the amount of mileage and never had such issue nor with my Volkswagen. Is this the reason the Australian Car Industry is going to crap?

Any help would be appreciated.
I would recomm

Automotive

Comments

  • Peace Maker on 22/10/2013 - 10:11
    +15

    To put it in perspective, not every car with a Holden badge is designed and built by Holden. Many, including the Astra, are actually Opel, which is a German brand. I'm pretty sure the Astra was completely built overseas, so not really the Australian Car Industry to blame if that is the case.

    It sounds like you got a lemon which is bad luck. Lemon cars are rare these days with improvements in production, but when you make hundreds of thousands of something, the law of averages says something can, and most likely, will, go wrong.

    Best of luck .

    • issh on 24/10/2013 - 22:29
      +1

      Basically any Holden model that ends with an A

      Astra, Barina, Vectra, etc

  • [Deactivated] on 22/10/2013 - 10:20

    I agree. Look lemons do exist and I work in finance and we use Six Sigma for quality control but in those 6 errors in every million processes we ensure to take accountability for those 6 errors. Holden seems to completely hands off not our problem. If I missed a service or had an accident I would contribute to my error but none of these were the case on this occasion
    .

    • _Bruce_ on 22/10/2013 - 10:27
      +3

      work in finance and we use Six Sigma for quality control but in those 6 errors in every million processes we ensure to take accountability for those 6 errors.

      This explains the GFC!

      … might want to learn what six sigma actually is. I work in Automotive and actually do six sigma.

      • Baghern on 24/10/2013 - 15:32

        GFC was a yanky bust up, our economy was fine, we only had small investments in companies that had exposure to bad debt.

      • sm10 on 25/10/2013 - 20:38

        LOL not all people in finance don't know their numbers :P
        I work in finance and know exactly what six sigma is, have certification, have used the "lean" ideaology for removing waste in processes and just came out of another round of Lean Six Sigma Boot camps!

        Anyhu it's probably just luck of the draw with this dodgy car, can happen to any car regardless of who it's made by

        Hope it all gets sorted

        • pfpozbargain on 07/11/2013 - 06:07

          If were talking about the TS Astra then the draw is a lucky dip, everyone gets a piece of shit.

  • _Bruce_ on 22/10/2013 - 10:21
    +5

    Change Holden with General Motors. The Astra is not known to be a great reliable car. But really this could happen with any car.

    As for the trade in value: What did you expect? You are probably best off not trading it anyway (sell private), but if there are serious repairs needed on an older car it is almost never worth the value of the car.

  • mysticbiscuit on 22/10/2013 - 10:46
    +1

    I had a Vauxhall Vectra (another GMC brand but in the UK) for a few years when I lived in the UK and the exact same problem happened to me - the head gasket went and I had to get a new engine. Apart from that the car had been a great little runner and had no faults to mention.

    It appears to be a common fault in the Vectra/Astra range in particular which is a real shame :(

  • konazz on 22/10/2013 - 10:58
    +2

    WHich model of astra had the awesome timing belt or aux power belt, that would shred itself every 60 -70,000km?

    The 2004 should have been the Opel built one, which many regard as the better ones, before we started getting the asian ones with belt issues.

    As for Holden customer service… don't bother. Mate bought a brand new C(r)aptiva Diesel. When they went to register it, there was a pool of trans fluid under it. Daewoo had installed the rear main seal incorrectly. So the dealership took out the engine, but no parts were available, so they flipped it the right way, and dropped the engine back in. Still leaking, they ordered the part from melbourne and a week or so later got it… engine out again, new seal in, engine back in. Then they drove it 97kms to the inspection bay… where guess what - STILL leaking, except now they've driven 200km round trip with trans fluid dropping. Mate wanted a new car, saying its failed rego… Holden's response was "You get what you're given". Dealer and customer both lose out, as Holden HQ wouldn't accept the car was faulty from the dealership, and my mate had already started finance on the car and had to pay a $600 break fee.

    Moral of the story - don't bother with Holden's customer service;

  • neil on 22/10/2013 - 11:14
    +12

    Am I the only one suspicious of the dealership? I'm not an expert on cars but have had mechanics try to rip me off in the past. Given you had no issues with the car when you brought it in and all of a sudden there is a huge issue, I'd be taking it somewhere for a 2nd opinion.

    • [Deactivated] on 22/10/2013 - 11:35

      Good point Neil. The service sign came on so I took it in just in case. They couldn't find the problem so I took it home. Then the service sign came on again the next day and than it took them 3 days to find the issue.

      • georgedeka on 22/10/2013 - 13:31
        +1

        A head gasket is a massive fault, it would be that you can't drive the car if it went completely.
        If it still drives, use it until it goes then get a new engine, you might get a while out of it. (Not a mechanic)

        • blitz on 25/10/2013 - 14:49

          I came in to say this. A blown gasket doesn't simmer quietly. Even a cracked gasket will show obvious signs of strife. I'd want to see evidence before I took their word for it. Please let us know what happens!

      • c64 on 22/10/2013 - 13:38
        +1

        for a blown head gasket, you could try taking off the radiator cap (only when the radiator is cool) and running the motor for a short while. air bubbles popping up indicate air is getting into the coolant.

  • ESEMCE on 22/10/2013 - 11:48
    +1

    Is this the reason the Australian Car Industry is going to crap?

    Well, yes, it is, but dunno how you figure that from a German(?) made car being faulty!

    One of my mates had a similar era Astra and had no end of trouble with it. Having said that, he reckons other people he knows have had no issues..
    Strangely (to me anyway), he recently offloaded it for a Cruze (which is Australian built). So far the only issue he's had is that Holden stuffed up a Firmware update on the LCD screen and bricked it, then said it'd be 3 weeks for a replacement screen (ie no radio/AC/navigation) despite the fact he lives 15 minutes from the factory where they put the cars together (and therefore presumably have stock)!
    I realise manufacturing and sales are separate entities, but surely Holden Customer Service can negotiate stock transfers?

    • ozhunter on 22/10/2013 - 12:11
      +4

      Well, yes, it is, but dunno how you figure that from a German(?) made car being faulty!

      Not everyone would know it is German made. They'd just assume since it's a Holden, it's Australian.

  • 2jzzzz on 22/10/2013 - 12:22
    +12

    Wipe your hands of it asap. Even little electric connectors and sensors cost heeeaaappppss.. Can't go past a little Toyota for reliability and service costs.

  • bigheadache on 22/10/2013 - 12:55

    This is the model of Astra with the 60,000km timing belts and brake discs that last 2 minutes. I'd be looking to get rid of it ASAP.

  • isthisreally_me on 22/10/2013 - 13:27

    Problem these days is that many Holden cars are simply rebadged Daewoo's, and they were atrocious cars.

    As to the OP, having said that its a 2004 Astra, makes it either built in Belgium if the hatch back or Polish built sedan (not German as mentioned by one respondent). In 2009 the Astra was replaced by the Daewoo sourced Viva.

    Bad luck really, the sellers had no way to know this would happen and personally id sell the car (not fix) and move on, provided a second opinion confirms the same issue.

  • natman on 22/10/2013 - 13:33
    +6

    You'd probably be better off with a 90's corolla, pulsar, 323 etc.

  • wa01 on 22/10/2013 - 17:32
    +3

    What problem(s) does the car have? Overheating, loss of oil, or oil/water mixing?
    What did the mechanic find to conclude the head gasket is blown.
    Get a realistic quote. $3400 is too much for a $100 gasket kit replacement.

    Like others have said, mechanics can exagerate or just guess wrong.
    I'd get a $20 compression tester to test for cylinder breach.
    Check radiator for oil, bubbles or water loss. Check dipstick for oil condition.
    Check for loss of oil outside engine, and for bad smoke or steam out of exhaust.
    If none of these, ask another mechanic to analyse problem.
    Or keep driving it if the only problem that is known for certain is a red light coming on intermittently.
    My & another guys subarus did this for years, quotes for $2k+ were rubbish (needed both oxy sensors was one quote). They're still driving well & flashing red regularly.

    • ntmango on 24/10/2013 - 22:35

      It'd be pretty hard to find a gasket kit for $100. Single gasket, maybe. But then ud have to reuse a lot of seals/gaskets andthat doesnt include labour which is the most expensive component of the quote.
      $3400 is pretty expensive for a engine replacement. U are prob better off getting the it fixed but it depends on whats going to be done. It could easily cost more if the cyl head is found to be damaged/cracked/warped.
      A good mechanic/workshop would get the cyl head machined, pressure tested, valves stem seals replaced, valves reseated and the water and oil channels ported or cleaned at least to make sure theres no blockages.
      This adds to the cost but if its worth doing, then it worth doing right.

      Simply replacing just a head gasket is asking for more trouble. No point spending $1kk at a back yard mechanic and then have it fail in 2 months.

      If ur planning to keep the car, ask the mechanic, while most of the motor is apart, replace the timing belt, tensioners, pulleys and all seals. Most decent mechaincs would do it without charging more for labour as it doesnt take much more time once its all apart.

      • wa01 on 25/10/2013 - 18:08

        Spot on. Except this is ozbargain.
        Doing things properly, & unnecessary preemptive replacements on old cars costs big $$$.

  • tonyjzx on 22/10/2013 - 18:40

    astras have always been crap (i think these are made in the EU somewhere like Belgium)

    no one is gonna take responsbility for what is a 10 yr old car

    as far as i'm concerned, Holden is still the "Commodore Car Company" just like Ford is the Falcon company

    you have a hard time making them take responsibility for something under warranty

    saying that the industry seems to be going down the gurgler with VAG and Hyundai having the same attitude

  • Geewhizz on 23/10/2013 - 07:08
    +5

    I'd be taking the car elsewhere. If it has in fact blown a head gasket, it more than likely needs the head gasket alone replaced, not the entire engine.

    • twwyt on 25/10/2013 - 17:08

      IF the car has not been driven far or for extended periods since the gasket was blown - and the water/ oil has been kept topped up - this is true.

      I certainly know a lot of people who would quite easily not notice or ignore the temp gauge/ Oil light/ CEL
      And that's when damage can occur.

      If the engine has overheated then It's quite possible that the entire engine needs to be replaced otherwise other issues may present themselves later on on (cracked cylinder head etc)

  • srhardy on 23/10/2013 - 07:28

    trade it, no law saying you have to tell them squat or just do the gasket, cost $1k…on carsales i saw a focus auto/dsg turbo diesel for 22.5k and the petrol cruize 1.4T auto for $18ish, both new so feel free to UG. I think the cruize comes with 5 year warranty, fixed price servicing and its a sweet ride (I have the diesel version myself) but i wouldnt touch second hand with deals like this around. Car loans are cheap too

    I traded an old toyota that was neally dead, felt no rmeose is seeing it go to the dealer(s)

    Be aware that repairs on cars around the 10+ years is almost always a case of spending more than the cars worth unless its a BMW (and the repair cost of one of these will make you wish you had the astra)

    good luck

    • [Deactivated] on 24/10/2013 - 23:37
      +2

      While I completely agree with in trying to skew a deal with dealership, you have to understand that if they ask you what's wrong with the car and you say nothing you are making false representations to the contract which I'm pretty at least voids the contract if not illegal.

  • Speckled Jim on 23/10/2013 - 12:50

    Sad to hear about this, as the last of the Astras are considered better quality cars than a Viva or Cruze of any lineage.

    But even the best make mistakes — like Ferrari using a flammable adhesive on their 458.

    Surely a reconditioned engine (exchange basis) should work out cheaper than the 3.5K quote? Give HMGem engine reconditioners a call for a quote.

    • _Bruce_ on 23/10/2013 - 13:07

      …as the last of the Astras are considered better quality cars than a Viva or Cruze of any lineage.

      Considered by who? What do you mean by 'last of' anyway, do you mean the last to be made in Europe?

      • Speckled Jim on 23/10/2013 - 14:44
        +1

        2009 was the final model year to be imported for the Holden Astra. So, the last of those vs the early Korean Cruzes.

        GMH looked into the Euro tiddlers for local production but decided it wasn't a "viable business case" and they "couldn't get the pricing to work" which I interpreted to mean, not enough profit if they wanted to be competitive with other marques.

        Do you accept Wheels magazine as an authoritative source?

        In their 2009 WASP comparo, the Astra CDX 1.8 came 3rd. It had great dynamics (ride, handling, steering) let down only by poor acceleration. This put it last out of 13 cars for overtaking safety.

        In their words:
        "All it needed for the win was not to fumble the ball in overtaking potential…But if Astra had even equalled the Mondeo in overtaking acceleration, you'd be looking at the overall winner right now.

        For reference, the winner was the Mk6 Golf with the Korean made Cruze coming mid-field in 7th.

        So when the Astras were still available new, they were superior to the only new Cruzes available at the time.
        Local Cruze? It would have taken a huge leap in overall build quality and engineering to close that gap.

        • _Bruce_ on 23/10/2013 - 15:28

          You know you can still buy an Astra today, they just have an Opel badge instead of Holden? Given this I really didn't know what model Astras you were talking about, 2009 may well be great, but earlier than that are known (in my experience) to be unreliable.

        • Speckled Jim on 23/10/2013 - 15:52

          You know you can still buy an Astra today, they just have an Opel badge instead of Holden?

          Yes I saw their TV ads last year.
          Yet I bought a $400 Mitsubishi — basically for free, given it still had 4 months rego ;)

        • Peace Maker on 24/10/2013 - 07:38

          Opel in Australia have folded now. Announced just recently. Maybe they heard about the OP's Astra?

      • Speckled Jim on 23/10/2013 - 14:54

        Oh, and before anyone accuses me of being a Euro-snob?
        Both our cars are Japanese made.

      • isthisreally_me on 31/10/2013 - 11:44

        Most everyone belives the old Astra quality was better than the cheap crap that are the Viva & Cruze

        • pfpozbargain on 07/11/2013 - 06:15

          Astra, quality, pick one.

  • tonyjzx on 23/10/2013 - 16:29
    +1

    i woudnt touch an Opel or any Astra any age. I admit they probably drive nice being Euro.

    I dont like Korean Cruzes and Vivas but I reckon they're more reliable but drive worse (not that bad driving matters to most people)

  • MarkB4 on 23/10/2013 - 20:49
    +1

    Unfortunately you can't trust mechanics, any more than you can trust used car salesmen. Get a second opinion from a recommended mechanic, or find out who is your local RACQ (or local equivalent) man - they are often older and less greedy and do after hours work at reasonable rates.

    But if you noticed nothing wrong before you took it for service maybe the only problem is you believe a mechanic?

  • t_c on 23/10/2013 - 21:04

    Take it to Manheims auctions, they'll sell anything.

  • [Deactivated] on 23/10/2013 - 21:06

    Happy owner of an astra 05 ts classic, old shape new running gear.

    the big thing with the astra motor that not many people care to do is the timming belt/ tenssioner replacement at ( for my car 90,000km) older astras pre late 05 are at 70,000km.
    these engines are made in a way that if the the piston can crunch the valve if the timming is that bad, I.e warm timming belt or snapped belt.
    it cost a pretty penny but such is life.

    not sure about op engine treatment but a blown head gasket does not mean you need a new motor, areal mechanic would try and save what you got by running flushing agents to clean oil sump, a new head gasket and torqued correctly then try your luck.

    also a quick question, did you ever notice the car running rough or high temp…. if not then they could be BS' ing.

    • Speckled Jim on 24/10/2013 - 11:35

      not sure about op engine treatment but a blown head gasket does not mean you need a new motor, areal mechanic would try and save what you got by running flushing agents to clean oil sump, a new head gasket and torqued correctly then try your luck.

      If the gasket is just starting to go, it may be early enough to try this.

      But if the head's warped it could have affected other components. They'd argue it's cheaper to get an exchange engine than muck around with a rebuild.

      http://www.tuning.mbs.id.au/Engine/alloy_head.htm

  • skyva on 23/10/2013 - 22:56
    +1

    mum had a v6 vectra around that era. Always serviced and had only done 60k after 5+ years, but a design fault just about wrecked the engine. They used an oil cooler in the valley of the v6 that exchanged heat with water in the radiator. Despite having coolant in it it rusted out and caused oil to go through the whole cooling system. Cost thousands to fix. Apparently the oem replacemnt part was nothing like the original becuse they knew they had an issue.

    Every car can have issues, but some models are lemons. My mrs has been keen on a territory for a while but there is no way I would get one after all the horror stories of faults that the factory refuses to acknowledge.

    • SPCTRE on 05/10/2017 - 10:38

      Can confirm territory are a POS!!!! Bushes worn at 40k, Starter motor shat itself at 60k, indicator stalk wires snapped at 80k losing headlights, fog lights, dash lights, tail lights etc.
      Never heard of such issues at such a low age milage car before. Massive design flaws that ford refuses to acknowledge.
      And which idiot designed a "completely sealed" transmission system that doesn't need oil changing for life!!!
      Stick with japanese cars, simple logically design and reliable enough

  • [Deactivated] on 23/10/2013 - 23:03
    -1

    Astra's are very difficult to do work. For this reason they are terrible choice of car.

  • Alienzzz on 24/10/2013 - 00:35

    My brother had worked for holden for over 10yrs and swore by them, he got an astra i think 2003 about 3yrs ago at auction for $6000 with no appearing issues and now its cost over $4000 and he cant even sell it for $3000! Haha made fun of me for getting a magna le 2003 for $6000 and i have had no issues at all but purchased with full history

  • notarealperson on 24/10/2013 - 10:08

    Sorry I don't have any advice on the warranty, but your post just gave me terrible flashbacks to owning a Vectra that was a similar year to your car. It was the single worst car I have ever owned. Bought it well maintained from a family member, 2 years later sold it to a scrap yard due to constant repair costs, as well as horrible anxiety any time the engine light came on because I didn't know if it would make it home. I lost a massive of money on that car and it really set me back at the time as I was really only starting out and it was the first car I'd ever had a car loan for. A friend working for Holden told us that the Vectra and Astras were made by Opel, and that he wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole (wish I'd known that first!). Regardless, I'll never own a Holden again after my experience.

    First off, the fact that it had a snow mode button should have alerted me that it was going to suck hard in Qld summers. One day after work the key wouldn't go in the ignition - the barrel had jammed because of the heat. That was a fun one to replace ourselves. Need a heater hose replaced properly(after it bursts and dumps all the coolant immediately)? Well hope you've got time on your hands coz the engine needs to be removed first.

    Could go on for days about that piece of cr@p car, but long story short, get rid of it. It's probably worth more in parts to a scrap yard and as it ages it will just cost more and more. Thankfully the car gods did shine down on me with the two cars I've owned since, and I absolutely love the Corolla that I drive now.

    • pfpozbargain on 07/11/2013 - 06:19

      I'm not surprised at all you bought a Corolla after a Vectra.

  • srhardy on 24/10/2013 - 10:32

    My Adelaide built holden diesel cruize rocks even though its not perfect. It has a problem with the plastic discolouring (looks like white leproacy on the black rear vision mirrors) and its getting fixed under warranty next week at its 3 months free 100 point safety check. No problems ive found asside from that and with 5 year holden manufacturer warranty and fixed priced servicing i bought it over the 10+k extra a VW7 golf was going to cost me…

    I would rather the 10k toward my next car, thanks very much!

  • mikafamily on 24/10/2013 - 11:23

    Take it to someone else and get a second opinion. I don't think you can slam a car maker in general for one bad car. We have Holdens at work and they are bullet proof! I have owned 7 Holdens and they have all been good. Your's is nearly 10 years old regardless of the Km's

    I think the bigger issue is the way you are treated by the dealership. My daughter just bought at 2010 Astra, it's a little ripper! although the 45,000 k service cost $500 ouch! Then again I brought a noisy suspension issue the their attention before the warranty ran out and now, even though it's just out of warranty they are replacing the front struts and will keep working on it until the issue is fixed.

    Sometimes it's just luck, or the lack of it. If it REALLY does need a new engine I don't think you can blame Holden.

    good luck

  • Claggs on 24/10/2013 - 16:26
    -1

    I have an 2004 CD TS Astra, it's done over 119k, and it's still going really strong. It's been serviced regularly, been used by several learner drivers, and myself (was my parents car, but I bought it off of them), and there has never, ever been a problem. Obviously a few things have needed to be changed, as you would expect with any car that is almost 10 years old and has done over 100,000km's - tires, wipers, battery and some rubber fittings here and there.

    I hear a lot of people saying that the Astra is a crappy car and all that, but in my opinion, it's a really great car, and I cannot fault anything. It's a great car for a P plater too, since it's really easy and smooth to drive.

    I'm planning on buying a the new 2014 Cruze later this year, and will hopefully stick with Holden for every new car I buy for the foreseeable future.

    • tomclancy on 25/10/2013 - 00:17
      -3

      Good for you, but I don't think your fabulous story about your future purchasing plans is helping the OP

  • onlyletters on 24/10/2013 - 16:40
    +3

    You would expect a car to have a head gasket issue at around 200,000kms, perhaps the vehicle you purchased didn't have its head bolts torqued properly.

    A hairline crack in a head gasket can leak pressure into the oil system or cooling system which is very common, most cars do not show any signs until the crack becomes bigger.

    If you don't know anything about cars, mechanics will sometimes take you for a ride and tell you that its the headgasket to charge you more when it could be something small like a sensor replacement.

    I have a few options for you;

    1. You could purchase a low milage engine for $600 and get it installed for $400 ($1000) which will come with warranty from the wrecker, wreckers will sometimes lie about the milage, I personally don't like dealing with wreckers, I've had so many bad experiences with them, they're so dodgy.

    2. You could get the head gasket changed by a mobile mechanic for $700~, while the engine is being worked on, its a good idea to have the water pump, fan belts, and timing belt changed while its out.

    3. Let the dealership do it for $3,400.

  • [Deactivated] on 24/10/2013 - 19:23
    +2

    Dropped it at service centre at Ferntree Gully Holden only to be advised that the Head Gasket is blown and that a new engine is required.

    Get a second opinion from an independent mechanic. The mechanics at dealerships have a conflict of interest; the dealership wants to sell you a new car!

    It's normal for gaskets to develop a leak eventually. Yours happened a little early but not by much. Replacing gaskets is cheap and easy and very common.

    Bear in mind your car is 10 years old and it's a cheap car (no offence). Even if you fix the engine you run the risk that other expensive problems are due soon.

    Be careful about throwing good money after bad.

  • Icedvovo on 24/10/2013 - 22:23

    I call BS on the dealer.

    Get an independent inspection by the RACV, NRMA, RACQ, or RAA depending on which state you're in.

    You can get it done where ever it is now. Sounds a lot like you're being scammed.

  • [Deactivated] on 25/10/2013 - 03:18
    -1

    LOL. The Australian Car Industry isn't "going" that way. It's been "gone" for a couple of decades now. I always find it funny to hear the "Ford vs. Holden" debate for example, because really, they're both rubbish. Every time I visit our mechanic friend, you can bet there'll be another Commodore or Falcon getting a reco'd head bolted on.

    In fact it would be difficult to recommend any contemporary car. The best of a bad bunch would perhaps be something by Honda or Subaru. But there's no way in the world I'll purchase a modern car.

    I'd rather buy an issue of that classic car magazine from the newsagent, and look for something restored by someone else at their expense and tears. Something rear wheel drive and with as little electronics as possible for reliability. Owners spend thousands then lose interest or sell to start another project (why!?). But they never get their money back. The cars are easy to repair, parts are cheap, and they are a conversation magnet.

    Both our cars are over 20 years old. It's difficult to go anywhere without someone giving us a wave, or coming up to us in a supermarket car park, "Just had to say that I used to own one of these, gee I miss it!"

    Another option is to look for low mileage cars - search for them online using search terms like "immaculate", or "low km". There are some great old cars being passed by, by most. Far better than the junk produced now (which only seems to be getting worse).

    • Speckled Jim on 25/10/2013 - 11:39

      Totally agree.
      Our "primary" car is an 89 Honda. I knew before buying it that it was a circuit toy for club meetings at Barbagello, WA. We drove it, fully loaded the ~4000km Perth-Melbourne no probs.

      Eight years on, and one morning something went pop — still haven't had it professionally diagnosed, but it sounded metallic so it's rebuild or reco motor time.
      It's had a hiding all its life, but we'll never sell it.

      So in the meantime, we bought another oldie (94 Lancer) for beer money. My only gripe is it uses a carby, and it's tricky to tune that.

      Loading cars with electronics is manufacturers catering to the lowest common denominator, fearful of legal action if the car is labeled "unsafe" by certain lobbies. FFS, some cars have pedestrian airbags that deploy at the base of the windscreen if some retard gets skittled!

      It also encourages lazy, deficient engineering and testing. Any shortcomings in the chassis can be addressed with stability programs and/or traction control. The best cars get the fundamentals right, then add the layer of safety and properly integrate it.

      But gee — the runaway Prius, dying VWs, rolling Merc A-classes, unstable Audi TTs, Excels with "self-lowering" front-ends…just a sample of automotive fails in the last 20 or so years.

      • tonyjzx on 25/10/2013 - 13:01
        +2

        i understand where you guys come from but it sounds like you guys are enthusiasts

        the OP clearly is not

        i mean the first noob mistake is to bring the car to a dealer

        one does not do that with a car that is coming onto 10 yrs old

        i like older cars… hell my car is over 10 yrs old

        however there are people out there who love their mod cons and safety items

        this has been made clear to me by the legion of people on other forums who will cry about slightly malfunctioning bluetooth and talks of 'class action'

        i personally dont see how any normal thinking person would think a manuafacturer would take ownership of issues in a car that is coming onto a decade old

        chances are the apprentices at the dealer have never seen that kind of car

        • [Deactivated] on 26/10/2013 - 10:34

          I do change my own oil, but there's not much that's enthusiast about me… I just found two low km cars on ebay. ;-p

          If I couldn't do even that, I'd probably still lean towards an older car. The more simple it is, the quicker the mechanic diagnoses and fixes, which equals less labour charge.

          Old cars work the same, just without the electronics. (Well, excluding hybrids.) So if they can work on a current Ford/Holden/Toyota, then they can fix earlier versions. The local TAFE still uses 1970s Holden red motors in the classroom.

          Computerisation is the difference but most mechanics don't repair computers! They just plug 'n play another one from a wrecker.

          A mechanic I know replaces a "faulty" part, only to get the same computer error code. He spends hour$ trying to "fix" non-existent faults because of some error on the dash. Part X shows faulty, but it might be the $4.95 sensor that monitors that part that is really broken. So when X shows as faulty, he automatically orders both. The customer pays more than he should, but it means less time spent on the car and lower labour charge.

          With an old car that wouldn't happen. No computer to claim there's some fault when there isn't one.

          I've seen him chase error codes for two or three days, then finally get a loan of a computer from the wrecker - just to see if it's really a fault, or the computer itself is acting up.

          There doesn't seem to be any of this with old cars. No spark - replace the ignition coil, cap, rotor, and leads - there's spark again. No fuel - but there is voltage to the fuel pump = replace fuel pump.

          It's not for everyone I guess, but it's something folks might like to consider.

    • wa01 on 25/10/2013 - 19:23

      "But there's no way in the world I'll purchase a modern car."
      I couldn't agree more with most of your comments. Very sensible. I think cars have become a very bad joke.
      Simple, reliable, repairable, economical and I'll buy a new car again this month, else it's 20 yo+ cars.

      Odd your comment is greyed out yet I think for bargain hunters it's probably the most valuable on this thread (imo).

  • mousie on 25/10/2013 - 12:56
    +1

    There is quite a good reason that Holden stopped importing Astra's, and now they're back in Vogue with Opel. There is a good reason why the average vehicle age in Australia is 10 years and unfortunately it becomes disproportionately expensive to maintain most European cars beyond their warranty because of the price of spares and complexity of their maintenance. Astra's are beautiful cars to drive, but so was my Landrover Freelander, factory fitted with a head gasket fault and a spongy hydrolic clutch.
    Best to cut your losses. Best value second hand cars are 2 years old from a lightning sale from a new car dealer & treat any purchase as a business transaction and a liabity!

    • Peace Maker on 25/10/2013 - 13:26

      Not quite 'in vogue' anymore

      http://www.caradvice.com.au/245654/opel-australia-closure-ho…

    • cannedhams on 25/10/2013 - 17:22

      I agree that Astras are okay to drive. My last car was a 2002 TS and they sit nicely on the road. For a FWD car there is hardly any torque steer. The viewing angle from the drivers seat is good, you feel like you're sitting nice and low. Nice car for puttering around town. Feels almost as good as driving a RWD V6 or above.

      The damndest things always happened with that car though. One time, the rear windshield spontaneously shattered, while it was sitting in the driveway. Then there was the AC fuse that always goes, the ignition barrel that always wore off, the coil pack that always packed it in around 140k or so, the ECU that always crapped itself at about the same time.

      Funnily enough, not a peep of trouble from the engine itself, which always purred beautifully.

      Bought a Toyota this time. Bloody hell are they reliable compared to the Europeans.

      • wa01 on 25/10/2013 - 19:00

        "One time, the rear windshield spontaneously shattered, while it was sitting in the driveway."
        Set the scene:
        Neighbours dad comes home from US work trip with presents for both his boys. BB guns (illegal import but still fun for kids).
        Boys pointing out bedroom window at bird, one goes off, deflects, misses everything. By sheer coincidence a nearby car windcreen shatters.
        And the seas of galilee did part on his commandeth.

        "rear windshield spontaneously shattered,"
        Can this actually happen?

        • _Bruce_ on 25/10/2013 - 22:06

          Car windscreens regularly get hit by small rocks at high speeds, this wouldn't break it. Sure it was the rear one, but still. More likely it was hot/cold and the screen wasn't fitted properly and thermal growth caused the problem.

        • cannedhams on 27/10/2013 - 16:28

          Dude, I have no idea.

          The windscreen was perfectly positioned. Not pushed in. There was no pattern to indicate an impact anywhere on the windshield. I got the windscreen guy out to replace it, he couldnt really explain it either.

        • wa01 on 28/10/2013 - 01:11

          I conceed defeat.

          There are lots of other examples (googled) of this happening with cars. Apparently from dodgy demister/heater or electrical short when demister is swithed on, or bad install.

          http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1227155

          So it has happened, just seemed more likely an impact caused it.

      • [Deactivated] on 26/10/2013 - 14:14

        Except that little issue mentioned in that "Lemon" car book. Sorry, I can't recall the title, but it's a book that lists the common faults of most cars… It claims Toyota is reliable until about 100,000km - but some time after that expect the head to have a catastrophic failure. (Don't know how true that is though… They were negative on another car that I owned and they couldn't be more wrong.)

        • cannedhams on 27/10/2013 - 16:29

          Ive never experienced anything like that, from driving either a Yaris, two Echos, a Corolla and a RAV4. All reliable cars. Had an oxygen sensor fail in one of the Echos but that was it.

  • JayM on 25/10/2013 - 18:55
    +2

    Take it into a KMart tyre and auto place or somewhere where the people who work there don't have any vested interest in ripping you off.

  • YRT on 26/10/2013 - 11:07

    If you are budgeting for an engine swap, you might as well try head gasket treatment silicon/fluid (?) as a cheap, short-mid term fix. Costs ~$100 or thereabouts. Ask your mechanic for a second opinion as some leaks cannot be fixed.

  • birnie on 26/10/2013 - 16:00

    I've been through the same thing, bur my engine DID blow up on the freeway.
    There was a hole in the back where a piston hit the edge, all oil out, smoke everywhere.
    Done for
    (Holden Astra 2002, 2.2ltre SRi which is Opel/Vauxhall)

    Relatively rare engine to replace so 2nd hand ones were similar to what you said 3.5k+

    I can't for the life of me remember where I got it from but there is a Holden engine importer in Vic (i'm in NSW) that get brand new engines from USA.
    Shipped to NSW was around $2000 all up on the condition you sent back the crap motor for reconditioning

    It comes with a return invoice so as long as your mechanic is willing to place the old one on a crate to go back you should be sweet.

    My mechanic knew what these engines are worth and thought I was full of shit at either 1) the price, or 2) it will not be new.

    He ate his words when it turned up.
    ……although it's just th basic block, all attatched parts need to be swapped from the old engine.
    ..but piece of mind that it IS brand new was fantastic.

    Google away and cross your fingers.

    I remember they did have a web page and pretty sure it was aimed at Holden utes etc…but they willl do any holden engine.

    Mine was the Z22SE or something like that

  • birnie on 26/10/2013 - 19:03

    OK, I found the receipt.
    I was a bit off sorry … eek
    Engine price was $3000 on the nose but with shipping etc. it cost me around $3600
    But like you've already found, that's the starting price of 2nd hand engines

    The company name was Zumbak which I can't find on the net now.

  • Donavann on 08/11/2013 - 23:37

    Well a good mechanic, workshop would get the eyl go produced stress, examined valves control closes changed valves reseated, and the standard water and oil programs ported or washed at least to make sure there no obstructions.

  • [Deactivated] on 16/11/2013 - 10:52

    So as I got the car towed back from the Holden Dealership to my house Holden slapped me with a $600 bill for just diagnosing the problem. Never getting a Holden again I tell you. And even got a call from Holden Corporate telling me they are not even interested or bothered enough to have a chat to the dealership. The tow truck driver referred me to a really good mechanic who installed a new second hand engine that was rebuilt with new valves, pistons etc and a 12month unlimited Km warranty for $1500 including installation. The mechanic is in Narre Warren and is also repairing my Mercedes now. He is a super honest guy and even dropped the car to my house and says to just call him if anything goes wrong. If anyone wants his contact details just send me a msg. Been smooth sailing since repair. But I am trading this Holden in and sticking to the German cars now like VW. At least they still give a shit post sale and are more likely to be around in a few years time. Last note - Stay clear of Holden. Shit cars, shit company culture.

    • _Bruce_ on 16/11/2013 - 14:31

      GM will be around for some time, even if they aren't making cars here - just like your Astra.

      • Speckled Jim on 18/11/2013 - 10:57
        +1

        Lucky bugger, that was a very good deal! And having a mechanic you can trust will pay dividends into the future. VW…try a Mazda6 or Accord Euro if you haven't already.

        As for Holden…it's sad isn't it? They've been combative for years, believing that slick advertising — some of which make no sense whatsoever — would get the sales up. That, and clinging to the old "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" mantra that's become irrelevant as the cars they race have less and less in common with what they sell.

        But GM has been a spent force since the early 60s. They peaked in 1958, but that success was a poison chalice as they then appointed bean-counters to run the show. Innovation, design and quality suffered as they tried to maximise profits. Yes Camaros and Corvettes might be great, but they failed with the bread-and-butter models.

        This imperative saw their market share spiralling, from 52% to around 15%.
        Tragic. Tee-hee.

  • tonyjzx on 16/11/2013 - 21:01

    "But I am trading this Holden in and sticking to the German cars now like VW. At least they still give a shit post sale and are more likely to be around in a few years time. Last note - Stay clear of Holden. Shit cars, shit company culture."

    this is really funny… VW are infamous for poor post sales service… you only need to see the amount of recalls and DSG issues

    german cars arent what they're cracked up to be

    we've had mercedes for close onto 25 yrs now… great if you like $2,000 major services…

    Holdens are what they are but I will always maintain that anyone who thinks any company will give a shit about your car a DECADE down the track needs his head read.

    • Speckled Jim on 29/11/2013 - 11:35

      Aren't many VWs made in Seth Efrica (Jo'burg) anyway?

      Kids: Johannesburg is not in Germany.

      • tonyjzx on 29/11/2013 - 11:43

        low end VW BMW and Mercedes are made in South Africa

        its no big deal, they also make a lot in China and Mexico

        as I said, I wouldnt trust German manufacturers in any sort of reliability contest… days a long gone that they were 'engineered like no other'

        if you want a BMW or Merc or whatver, I dont bregrudge you think, they are generally well designed luxury cars

        just be prepared to pay dearly for the upkeep and bet on electric issues being they are very complex, saying that even Falcodores have electric issues

  • 2ndeffort on 18/11/2013 - 14:28

    Who takes their 10 yo car to a dealership for servicing??

    • tonyjzx on 18/11/2013 - 17:18

      I'm sure the dealer, Holden AU and Fair Trading were all laughing at this guy.

    • onlyletters on 21/11/2013 - 11:38

      People who don't know any better.

  • maybeamacy on 21/11/2013 - 00:46

    The VF is a good Holden, I'd prefer it over any VW.

  • DEvok on 23/11/2013 - 13:35
    -4

    Germans can't make cars, it's a disaster, they all wear down way to fast. Good cars from japan, and australian made Holden few Europe cars and Great Wall from china.

    • MustResistPurchase on 24/11/2013 - 12:13

      Would've convinced some people if you didn't mention "Great Wall".

  • rogsamsy on 27/11/2013 - 12:54
    -1

    Holden -> VW = Frying Pan -> Fire.

  • Steve100 on 19/06/2015 - 19:03

    Holden cars are crap.
    The worst is the Holden Astra and the Holden Viva. They are notorious lemon cars.
    Holden only ever made 1 good car, and that was the Commodore. But that was a long time ago.
    Back in the 1960's you could be proud of your new Holden, but not now.
    Today Holden cars are rubbish.
    Lift the bonnet on a Viva or an Astra. The bonnet feels like it is made from the same material you get from a toy found inside a Kelloggs corn flakes packet. Weak and flimsy. No strength in it at all. You can bend it with your bare hands.

    • Speckled Jim on 19/06/2015 - 21:22

      You can bend it with your bare hands.

      Yes.
      In the 70s, Mercedes Benz, Volvo and others discovered "crumple zones". They absorb decelerative forces, thus buying precious milliseconds in a crash. Outer extremities are therefore relatively "soft", while the occupant cell is more rigid.

      But you obviously missed that memo while spending all that time under your Commie.

  • TightAsTupperware on 27/06/2015 - 00:23

    Does comprehensive insurance cover this? Anyone have an idea? It should right?

    • nocure on 27/06/2015 - 00:31

      Nope

  • Brucet on 30/06/2015 - 14:46

    If you look for reliable cars.
    I recommend you choose import Japanese cars (TOYOTA OR LEXUS )

  • Jennifer 345 on 03/10/2017 - 14:34

    Hello,
    We bought a lemon car in the form of a 2012 ZSeries VE Commodore. Following the first service, the car would fluctuate in idle mode, particularly from cold start. Complained to GM Holden and was issued with 4 years extended warranty. Complained about this issue for four years. Seeked another opinion from Barry Bourke Holden, Berwick Victoria.
    Bernard Boyle, Service Manager - Barry Bourke Holden advised, in writing, the "idle fluctuation is a characteristic by Holden Ltd". This email I would like to share on your website, because had I known of this so called "characteristic", I would never have forked out 40K!
    Furthermore, the service manager refused to assist me on another occasion because he accused me of recording our conversation, which was totally false. The car cam also captured him stating that the rough idle is normal.
    Can you please advise how I can attach the email response from Bernard Boyle.

    Jennifer

    • Speckled Jim on 04/10/2017 - 12:29

      Given this,

      he accused me of recording our conversation, which was totally false.

      Then this

      The car cam also captured him stating that the rough idle is normal.

      You need to get your story straight, for a start.

      I'd advise against publicising communications here, but retain them for a complaint with your state consumer body.

  • srhardy on 05/10/2017 - 07:49

    LOL. Holden BULLSHIT. My Cruize has a auto trannie that slips in 3rd. They have done nothing, after I recorded it slipping, after multiple trips, nothing.

    Im at a loss as Im now counting down the last year of warranty too but they have 0 intention of honoring it.

    My only choice is at my own expense to service it or replace it and they have every intention of making sure they dont.

    Warranty is bullshit, cars are shit (not just them alas) but we dont have consumer laws with any teeth! Im at the point of giving up myself

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