32" LED LCD - Advice needed for boxing day sales - 50hz vs 100hz gaming

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  zelda707 on 25/12/2013 - 21:51

  +1

  I would definitely go for a model with FHD, especially with the PS4. I'm not too sure about 50Hz vs 100Hz, but my TV is 50Hz and its fine for gaming

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  StewBalls on 25/12/2013 - 22:33

  As zelda said, for gaming don't bother yourself too much over The Emporer's New Clothes (aka Motion Compensation); you'd be far better off mitigating the input lag factor: http://www.displaylag.com/what-is-input-lag-the-breakdown/

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  SteveBuscemi on 25/12/2013 - 23:17

  You’re pretty much 100% correct, 100/120Hz motion interpolation is terrible for gaming and the first thing to go when you turn on ‘game mode’. (Plus many games run at 30fps so they can include more eyecandy). A 50Hz TV (which runs at 60Hz for things like PS4s) is fine.

  At 32" the benefits of 1080p over a 1366x768 panel certainly aren't as apparent as they are at larger sizes, but I'd still spring for a 1080p.

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  SaberX on 26/12/2013 - 01:37

  SO full HD is another cat in the basket and should be seperated from 50 hz VS 100Hz? obviously FHD is better in a 50 hz OR 100 hz versus the non FHD VErsion?

  But does a 100HZ mitigate the 'input lag factor' less than a 50hz, from what you're saying StewBalls?

  SteveBuscemi - So where do I find out if the 50HZ can run at 60HZ for gaming/ps4's? Is that in the specifications? The 50HZ samsung is the F5000 (5 series) 32"…. anywhere where I can check?

  And this has confusd me, I thought 1366 x 768 is a higher resolution than 1080p? And in turn 1920 x ??? whatever it is is the highest of them all (aka. FULL HD?) or am I getting muddled up over the figures, and thinking the larger the number, the better?

  So I guess from what everyone's saying 100 HZ just makes irrelevant 'motion compensation' for gaming purposes. But does not necessarily mean a 100HZ would be worse in gaming mode than a 50HZ? Basically if priec is a factor, 50HZ is fine? if price isn't a factor then go 100HZ anyway over 50?

  • 

    Riczter on 26/12/2013 - 02:03

    +1

    HD = 1280 x 720 = 720p
    FHD = 1920 x 1080 = 1080p
    UHD = 3840 (or 4096) x 2160 = 4k
    So while HD and FHD look at the second figure, the horizontal lines, the 4k seems to use the first figure, the vertical pixel count. Just to confuse ppl ;)

    • 

      SaberX on 26/12/2013 - 02:29

      Thanks Riczter.

      That explains the pixel count and the use of the end figure was what was confusing me, I see why 1080p is obviously better than the 1366 x 768 I was looking at before. Where does 1366 x 768 stand anyway? Is that just 768p?So slightly higher than HD, but lower than FHD?

      So if this dictates pixels, i.e. quality of picture, then you'd describe the 50hz vs 100HZ as refresh rate of the screen picture?

      Which in turn is different from response time (ms) which comes from reduced input lag that in turn is higher if you have a 100mhz over 50mhz, correct? Do i have the understanding right?

      What sort of response time - ms should one look for at a minimum for gaming i.e. the ps4? And is that different to when pplz quote 60fpz games etc, which they say having a 60HZ tv is great for? Some clarity /explanation would be great,thanks!

      • 

        Riczter on 26/12/2013 - 02:46

        I don't know much about the rest, but i think you got most of it right. My understanding (which may be wrong) is that 50/60 hz are used interchangably, like 100/120hz. I think these minor differences have more to do with geographical location and whether it is a PAL or NTSC signal.

        You'll have to get info on response time and input lag from someone else i don't know anything about this, but i don't think it has much to do with the 50Hz/100Hz.

        Picture quality is not just to do with pixel count. It also has to do with the quality of the panel, and whether its a plasma, or LED.

        But basically you want a FHD as a minimum. Go with a name brand like samsung, LG, Sony, Panasonic and not a cheap brand like Hisense, DSE, Soniq, Kogan, Hitachi, etc.

        If it is going to be used primarily for gaming 50Hz is good, if it is going to be for tv and movies as well then try get 100Hz but do some more research on the tv to make sure it has low input lag, and game mode to scale it down to 50hz for gaming… hope that helps somewhat.

      • 

        Riczter on 26/12/2013 - 02:56

        Here we go, read the responses to this comment: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/128250#comment-1766308 by Scrimshaw for some info on Input Lag. Note that this sounds like it is one of the more important issues if you are using it for gaming, and unfortunately not something that is usually listed in the specs..

      • 

        SaberX on 26/12/2013 - 05:17

        I thought Panasonic wasn't held too highly? I'll def be sticking with LG , Sony or Samsung. I guess the issue is when comparing say FULL HD and say 50hz or 100 hz models, all 3 brands do similar specs (at least to the avg consumer eye) at roughly the same price. So I'm basically wondering what on earth do i pick?

        I would say largely gaming, with some odd movies/series, but those aren't visually intensive so I would think 50HZ would still do? Depends the price difference I think?

        Essentially it seems like 100HZ in game mode is equivalent to 50HZ assuming the quality/build is both the same/good, as the game mode would cut out any additional 'motion processing/smoothening' and tune it to gaming? At least that's what my impression is based on reading.

        I'm struggling for response and input lag time. From what I can see from the display lag link Stewballs posted above, input lag should be 60 ms or below. Ofc 60 ms is just 'ok' with 40 ms'ish and below being a great reading (http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/).

        That said I can't find anything on response time either, and what's a suitable 'response time' for a tv. From that link you posted below with scrimshaw's additional explanations, 2 ms response time seems to be standard/sufficient, as that's what computer monitors do?

        The hardest part is I can't find the 32" model numbers response or input lag times when I google. So the hardest part is how will I know what they are?

        That would've made purchasing straight out easy.

      • 

        SaberX on 26/12/2013 - 05:19

        thanks for the scrimshaw link.

        I've been using that link to look up more input lag. I can't find specific models in the 32" though.

        Can anyone confirm if say the 42" model will have the same response and input lag times etc as say the 32"? Becuase say with the series 5 samsung model, I can find a 42" review : http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung-ue42f5500-20130819325…

        However, I can't find the 32" version. Would I be wrong assuming specs are the same across different sizes of the same samsung series model #'s??? Anyone know?

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  SaberX on 26/12/2013 - 01:38

  100HZ tv's also don't necessarily mean better technology and therefore better colour/picture does it? Say a 50HZ or 100HZ with full HD, while obviously the 100HZ is designed to be 'smoother' when non-gaming, will the technology and therefore picture quality, colour etc be nicer?

  Or you can pretty much get a less smooth, but just as decent picture quality 50HZ as the colour/quality wise technology under the hood is the same?

  Gosh been out of the know for far too long, last I knew there was just LCD's and plasmas and now LED LCDs :S

  Hoping JB Hi Fi will be doing 20-30% off tvs… have they ever on boxing day?

  • 

    Riczter on 26/12/2013 - 02:49

    +1

    Yeah you can get a 400Hz TV that is average PQ. Really need to check the reviews and get input from those in the know and consider all the specs to see whether a tv is a good buy. Don't just assume that more pixels combined with more hz equals a better tv :)

    Also all the boxing day sales and prices on tvs are available now. Check the cataloges of JB, DSE, TGG and HN.
    Also some good info on larger TVs and boxing day prices here: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/127434

    • 

      SaberX on 26/12/2013 - 06:10

      Ok so I've done some reading since posting the above, and reading your responses.

      Now I'm left confused by two opposing things:

      1) It seems that the higher the HZ e.g. 100hz vs 50HZ, the less the 'motion blur' as the picture is obviously smoother/refreshes faster.

      However, this means more 'input lag' from what above posters state? Therefore in gaming mode the 100hz is the first thing to go and therefore arguably a 50HZ tv is fine (although won't a gaming mode on 50HZ reduce that even more, making the motion blur worse than the 100HZ in gaming mode?).

      Therefore there's two opposing things: motion blur vs input lag.

      I am confused which is more important and whether I'm safer going 50 hz or 100HZ for the best between both worlds

      2) In addition to motion blur or input lag time, there's 'response time'. My understanding is <5-7 m/s response time is considered good, i.e. how fast a pixel can turn from white to black, or something like that?

      Meanwhile < 60 m/s input lag time is considered 'ok', 40 m/s and below great.

      Motion blur of course increases if you go lower hz LED LCD, but that in turn also reduced input lag?

      Have i missed anything? Still confused whether the end verdict is go a 50 HZ over 100 HZ though… lol. And i only have a good 5 more hours till jb hi fi opens…. still can't find a clear answer on google >.<" gosh this is hard.

      • 

        SteveBuscemi on 26/12/2013 - 10:09

        +4

        1) It seems that the higher the HZ e.g. 100hz vs 50HZ, the less the 'motion blur' as the picture is obviously smoother/refreshes faster.

        However, this means more 'input lag' from what above posters state? Therefore in gaming mode the 100hz is the first thing to go and therefore arguably a 50HZ tv is fine (although won't a gaming mode on 50HZ reduce that even more, making the motion blur worse than the 100HZ in gaming mode?).

        It's not simply a case of refreshing faster. A 100/120Hz model has to invent frames to display at this rate. They simply aren't in the original signal, because the PS4 outputs at 60Hz. You will never be feeding it a 100 or 120Hz signal.

        So in "120 Hz" mode, what happens is that your PS4 outputs frame 1, but rather than the TV displaying it, it holds on to it. The PS4 then outputs frame 2. You're already a frame "late", but now the TV has to analyse the two frames, work out what it thinks an 'in between' frame is, and then insert that between frame 1 and 2. Only then can it display frame 1 which the PS4 has been waiting for you to respond to. This is where all the lag comes in. It's only a fraction of a second but it makes a big difference in games (which can already have their own input lag in the game engine)

        So with all this garbage turned off, for a console, a 50/60 and 100/120Hz TV is going to be pretty much identical, and a lot of the time displaying content that doesn't even run that fast, but at 30Hz.

        To be perfectly honest you're fine just going to JB and picking up any LG, Samsung, Panasonic or Sony 32" FHD LCD.

      • 

        SaberX on 26/12/2013 - 10:50

        Great explanation.

        THat definitely puts it as a must getting the 50HZ for reducing input lag.

        However, how do you explain motion blur e.g. would I be correct in saying that the 100HZ is going to have less motion blur, but more input lag than say the 50HZ (which would have less input lag, but in return you may get motion blur?)

        Woke up abit late, but will be heading to JB soon and probably aiming for the samsung series 5 then based on what you've said (50 hz, FHD).The thing i haven't quite worked out yet is the F5000 (non smart) vs F5500 (smart TV) as supposedly the SMART will slow down the processing abit, so no frills might be better.

        Have no idea about the LG's or Sonys though, didn't get any conclusive research done on em last night.

• 

  SaberX on 26/12/2013 - 01:50

  Recommendations: LG, samsung or sony? or are they all that good that i should just get whichever goes the cheapest in toms sales?

• 

  sunarde on 26/12/2013 - 23:52

  +1

  Check out AVS forums. They are the best people to ask for your visual audio needs. They could probably point you in the right direction and how much you should spend to be considered "fair or a bargain".

  They also could give you the settings to calibrate your TV too if you search or ask nicely

  BTW I think that the sammys are pretty cheaply made being EDGE LIT and what not. You'd want something that is backlit instead but they tend to be more expensive as they are more expensive to make.

  • 

    SaberX on 27/12/2013 - 19:33

    Ahh i didn't know anything about back lit and edge lit and what not prior to buying a tv? I just knew only LED LCD's as one type of tv.

    I acutally ended up geting the samsung f5500. I couldn't get the F5000 discounted, so I ended up getting the smart version F5500.

    From the displaylag website, it appears the F5000 doesn't require game mode as there's no input lag anyway, whereas the F5500 does appear to have input lag if you don't use the game mode.

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  IdBuyThat4aDollar on 27/12/2013 - 16:09

  My personal advice, I would go at least 1080p - I wouldnt consider non-FHD TV's these days (even phones these days that have a ~5 inch screen are generally 1080p). And for a 32 inch TV I would just go 50Hz refresh rate if the price difference to 100Hz is significant.

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  SaberX on 27/12/2013 - 19:36

  Thanks for all the help guys.

  I ended up geting the Samsung 32" F5500 LED LCD. Full HD. Unfortunately it has SMART tv compared to the F5000 model, so therefore it'll add to gaming input lag, so I"ll haveto use gaming mode. But I got the best discount fro the F5500 (got it down from Harvey Normans $546 to $430), whereas the F5000 was starting at $469 and the best good guys would do is "$461" (pathetic if you ask me, seriously $8 on boxing day?). Kambos cost + $1 was no use either as the F5000 was still way over $470 (as if cost), and JB which is usually my retailer of bargaining choice was all sold out of the F5000 :(.

  So yeap, I'm currently constructing my book case and cleaning my room, after which once the book case goes in and the ps4 setup, and tv setup, I'll let you know how I go here, mainly for those who like me do future google searches :)

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  plmko on 27/12/2013 - 22:30

  -1

  Don't confuse yourself over mumbo jumbo jargon rubbish this that features that people feed you based on pure speculation on what 'should' be rather than what it 'actually' is.

  There is no magical plasmas do this and LCD's do that blah blah, look up the specific model of TV in one of the many reviews on the internet, tons of information especially if you are going for a cheaper 2012 model.

  I have a late 2011 Sony LED LCD, it has input latency of 33-40ms even with everything engaged, and this is a native 120hz panel. If I had listened to numbskull 'no it alls' in forums I would've bought myself one of those Panasonic ST plasmas (highest rated in the year) with 70ms input latency.

  *Realised you already bought something. Oh well enjoy!