Hi everyone. I hope this is the right place for my post. My beautiful 8 year old Border Collie has done her ACL. It happened yesterday. We did not see it happen but just noticed her with her back leg not touching the ground. She kept running around on three legs. Took her to the vet last night who suspected it was an ACL. We went back to the same vet clinic today and saw another vet who confirmed the diagnosis. No xrays or tests were done. They both diagnosed it from feeling her leg and knee. She needs surgery. I do not have a problem with her having surgery but just need to ensure that it is the right thing to do. I am wondering if anyone in ozbargain land has had any experience with this.
My Dog Has Done Her ACL
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You think it's better with doctors?
Haven't had any 1st hand or heard from anyone about doctors. Not surprised that to know though.
"Was your dog crying all the time whilst he/she was in the pen. My dog cries when I have her confined to the garage."
- Short answer no. He was in a pen on a pergola next to sliding rear house door. But if you read tiggerpoz some people kept their dog in the home restricted in a room from climbing beds, chairs, stairs etc. and that sufficed. You should take the time to scrutinize the entire tiggerpoz website as it should answer all your questions and if it doesn't you can always email them directly for additional free advice.Have finally checked out the website recommended by you and 'scozbargain'. Great read. Thank you so much.
By the way you haven't seemed to have grasped that whether "My dog cries when I have her confined to the garage" or not it is going to need to be confined if it is operated on or not regardless
- "Post-operative cruciate ligament care for dog
Your pet must be forced to rest for the first six weeks following cruciate ligament surgery. This means:
Your pet should be confined to a small room or quiet area for the six-week rest period.
Only short (maximum 10 minutes) exercise is allowed – your pet may be slow walked on a leash in order to go to the toilet."
NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY POST " I figured i needed to get a pen to put dog in after the op anyway so i'd give the tiggerpoz way a go first with nothing to loose but a couple of months wasted time."
Any way you go to try and heal your dog its going to be confined for a long time.
If you don't care if it limps then your dog won't be crying because she's confined to a garage.I understand. I will be investing in a pen also. Vet arranged for the surgeon to call, which he did this morning. He advised that did not need to have it done within 2 weeks and that I could leave it to see how she goes. Not for too long of course. So I will have the opportunity to following the tiggerpoz method as you did. Thanks for your help.
You mentioned you found a holistic vet in Bentleigh - if it's the one on South Road then I know your border collie will be in good hands. I used to work as a vet nurse at another vet in the area (there are about 6 within a 5km radius!) and I'm familiar with the clinic on South Road.
If money is an issue, Lort Smith is a very good option. I have nothing but high praise and they provide payment terms of 50% deposit + periodic payments to suit your budget.
Vets who operate on ACLs and the like are usually orthopaedic specialists. Unlike the public health system, veterinary treatment is not subsidised by the government.
I don't know of any vet who would suggest surgery unless they thought it was necessary.
Good luck with the treatment. Whatever you do, I don't envy you trying to restrict the movement of a border collie for at least a couple of months. You will also need to restrict their diet to ensure they don't put on extra weight, or even reduce the weight to aid in the recovery.
Thank you for your response. Surgeon has contacted me and advised that I can leave it for a while to see how she goes. Will keep her as quiet as I can.
You can always try for another opinion at a different vet. I'd be trying to make sure before going through with it.
My girl had very similar symptoms after trying to jump a fence (walking on 3 legs, in pain), turned out to be a bruised paw (which you couldn't see on a dark paw). A week later she was out running as normal. (3YO Cattle X Kelpie)
Thanks for your response. I appreciate your time. The vet did feel around and felt that the knee was moving more than it should. The surgeon called me this morning and advised that we can wait but must keep her quiet. The vet is probably correct with her diagnosis but I will still get another opinion. Thank you again.
Thank you. Just sent them an email.
My 11 year old maltese/pom did an ACL two years ago. She had been limping off and on for a while and then one day couldn't walk on her leg at all. $2000 later and she is fine today. No more limping. Sure, the surgery is quite invasive but it's a dog and they just get on with it. I managed 2 weeks of intensive care and then just let her be and her happy face came back. They told me that there was a 50/50 chance of it happening to the other leg but so far, so good. Yes, she's a bit slower than she used to be but jeez, she's 13 years old now!
If you're not sure of the diagnosis you can always try another vet for a second opinion. I didn't bother because I'd seen it before. I rang around for costs and they were all about the same.
Non-surgery is only an option if the thing hasn't completely torn. See above and the limping. If I had known that she had possibly bung ACLs and limped, I could have kept her quiet at the time it started and it may have worked out ok. Once they can't put any weight on the foot at all and develop the miserably unhappy face, it's over.
"Non-surgery is only an option if the thing hasn't completely torn." - Totally wrong.
My dog couldn't ever put any weight on its leg which is why the vet recommended immediate surgery.
Vets are trained in med school like human Doctors to operate in these cases.
But a dog's anatomy is not a humans.
The stitches a vet puts in the dogs knee just allows scar tissue to form along it to take the place of an ACL. If you keep a dog constrained scar tissue will develop naturally to replace the ACL and the restriction on the dogs movements for at least a couple of months will allow it to strengthen naturally and replace the missing ACL.
My dog with help from others at tiggerpoz proves this.
Any dog 7 plus is regarded by the RSPCA as a Senior and with this goes more inherent risk when anaesthetising and operating on a dog.
If you think throwing money at a suffering Dog's problem proves you care for it, well it doesn't. An operation further increases the risk to it's health with a chance like any surgery of death. Can you think for yourself, but more importantly your Dog.
"They told me that there was a 50/50 chance of it happening to the other leg but so far, so good" - this is because like a human after an ACL surgery during the recovery process dogs tend to put more stress on their previously good leg to compensate for the weakened recovering leg. If the dog is constrained until its 100% there's no issue and if it got out and injured the other leg you need to just confine it some more until both are good.
So if a dog keeps busting ACL's how many operations do you think they can take and you can afford? As long as its not called "Neale Daniher" i suppose you'll be alright, heh?For those of us that work full time, all the time, constraining a dog for at least 2 months, probably 3, is a physical impossibility and especially if you have other dogs. Want to drive your dog completely around the bend? Crate it and add a new dimension to cruel. Also, add 100 times to this trauma by doing it to an 11 year old dog that has never been in a crate.
And what a 'D'ouche lecturing me on what constitutes pet care. I've had 15 dogs, most of which died of old age, lots of whom required many procedures, including surgical and non-surgical intervention. This was a forum for experiences in ACLs, not for you expend your entire narrow knowledge of life in 2 seconds.
So if a dog keeps busting ACL's how many operations do you think they can take and you can afford?
There is only one per leg. Once the surgery is done, it is done. Since you seem to know everything about everyone and their 'D'og, I'm surprised you didn't know this. That surgically repaired ACL is not going to break again. The reason the other ACL might go is also related to genetic vulnerability. It is the same reason that it blows in an already old dog in the first place. Grow a brain and get some education in proper grammar too heh?
Technically they only need a maximum of 2 cruciates surgeries in their lifetime as they only possess 2 knees. Of course it depends on the surgeon's skills & the right technique used. I have had cruciate surgeries done by other vets & myself (mostly extracapsular done on larger breed dogs) being referred to me or returned to me with implant failure resulting in going for TTA or TPLO surgeries (which ws recommended from the beginning by me). But by that time, the arthritis has become worse.
It is up to people whether they want to have surgery done or not. Some people in this forum are not keen on surgery hence would like the rest & constrain method. Which is up to the individual preference. But keep in mind that the longer you restrict them the muscles would start to waste too. So that's not ideal too.
So which ever method you choose (op or no-op) just think it through. Don't just get 1 persons opinion. Make an educated decision. Most vets will support your decision if you understand what you are doing and what to expect."But keep in mind that the longer you restrict them the muscles would start to waste too. So that's not ideal too." - Irrelevant unless you own a $8000 trained working sheep dog that you need in a hurry to work on your farm.
"Most vets will support your decision if you understand what you are doing and what to expect." - Irrelevant it's not their dog.
Just make certain as i do when you take your dog to a vet for its annual shots that you don't let the vet touch its legs and hyper extend them and undo all your good conservative maintenance ACL rectification.
"Some people in this forum are not keen on surgery hence would like the rest & constrain method." - I'm personally against taking any unnecessary surgery on anything, anywhere, anytime.
I myself am not making any money or gaining anything from this post. I'm just trying to help a fellow free thinking "Ozbargainer", after all we wouldn't use this site if we couldn't think for ourselves outside of the box, to point out that the accepted practice is erroneous.
Once again i ask - "Can you think for yourself, but more importantly your Dog.""But keep in mind that the longer you restrict them the muscles would start to waste too. So that's not ideal too." - Irrelevant unless you own a $8000 trained working sheep dog that you need in a hurry to work on your farm.
Fair suck of the sav, you're a rude git. This isn't irrelevant AT ALL. It is a MAJOR consideration for anyone with an old pet to weigh up quantity vs quality. You could spend 3 months on crating, another 3 months on constrainment, another 6 months on physio, just to come out right back where you started.
Just wait until you're old and have something wrong with you and see how you come back from wasted muscles. Don't get back to me though. I'm not interested.
"Most vets will support your decision if you understand what you are doing and what to expect." - Irrelevant it's not their dog.
Most vets are after a customer for life, not a quick buck for one surgery. In any case, most vets use visiting orthopaedic specialists that come in to do the surgery on certain days, so the bulk of that fee walks right out the door.
Decision made. Will be keeping dog restricted. Looking at getting her a brace to ensure that her leg is supported when she is taken out to toilet or given her meals. As mentioned earlier, surgeon has confirmed that the surgery does not have to take place immediately. I appreciate all the comments. Only task I have now is to find somewhere in Melbourne where they can make her a leg brace. Vet can arrange it but there is a long wait time. If anyone know of where I can have one made, please let me know. I am ringing around at the moment. Thanks to ozcol for sharing your experience with the tiggerpoz method.
My 1 year old Labrador did an ACL 2 weeks ago. Her left leg was limping while she was walking and when we took her to the vet after the x-ray she got diagnosed with ACL on both legs!! So she had the first operation TODAY !! Apparently she did very well and aroung 2 months later she will have the other operation on her other leg. Unfortunately at her this age she has to go thru these operations. The vet also told me that no matter what she is going to have arthrisis on her leg or legs..
Cost: I made the first payment for the first opertaion today which is $2500 and the other operation will cost me the same. Luckily We had our dog covered with insurance and hopefully when I submit the claim form I will get 90% of my money back from these operations.
Depending on the vet the cost might change.
I just hope that she will be ok for the rest of her life. For me it is worth doing it in order to reduce the risks of arthrisis on her legs which can result in collapsing for dogs.Hope your dog gets better man..
Thank you for taking the time to respond and share your story. Good that the first op went well for her. I hope all goes just as well for the second leg. Good luck.
"Just wait until you're old and have something wrong with you and see how you come back from wasted muscles. Don't get back to me though."
- there'd be no point as you can't seem to discern the difference between a dog and a human."For those of us that work full time, all the time,"
- thanks for taking the time to contribute to this thread and lets hope for a dog of yours sake that it doesn't bust an ACL as you don't have the time to follow the good people at the Sydney Animal Hospitals' advice or those at tiggerpoz which you really need to read and try to comprehend."There is only one per leg. Once the surgery is done, it is done"
"That surgically repaired ACL is not going to break again."
"Most vets will.."
"Most vets are.."
"You could.."
"constraining a dog for at least 2 months.."
{Post-operative cruciate ligament care for dogs :
Your pet must be forced to rest for the first six weeks following cruciate ligament surgery. This means:
Your pet should be confined to a small room or quiet area for the six-week rest period.
Only short (maximum 10 minutes) exercise is allowed – your pet may be slow walked on a leash in order to go to the toilet…..}
- talk to the good people at the Sydney Animal Hospitals and they'll tell you this but why let the facts get in the way of making one of your many sweeping generalisations as shown above to try and win an argument"Grow a brain and get some education in proper grammar too heh?" - "not for you expend your entire narrow knowledge of life in 2 seconds."
-???????"Grow a brain"
"what a 'D'ouche"
"you're a rude git."
- when the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser 'snook'."Decision made. Will be keeping dog restricted" "Thanks to ozcol for sharing your experience with the tiggerpoz method."
- as you've made your decision 'what' on a course of treatment i'll consider this thread closed, your welcome for the shared experience and best wishes for a satisfactory outcome for you with your collie's leg.My dog was given the same diagnosis and recommendation. As the dog didn't seem uncomfortable we didn't rush to action.
6 months later no hint of weakness in that leg, a couple of years later the leg is stronger than it ever was.
Only difference is the dog will bite the vet now as I think the examination hurt her.
The dog is a jack russell x and makes a 3 ft jump maybe 20 times a day.Good to hear that your has done so well. Funny that she is now biting the vet. She has a good memory.
Sorry to hear about your dog. My border collie was 8 years old when she ruptured her rear left ACL in september last year. Like people have said - x-rays are not required to diagnose a ruptured ACL, on manipulation a knee joint with a ruptured ACL will sublax and the dog will let you know that it has. I'm a sports scientist and have access to academic journals, i researched veterinary journals on torn ACLs for medium-large sized dogs with different surgical or non-interventional options and the choice of TPLO surgery was obviously the best choice for border collies - this was only confirmed when I discussed this with the surgeon. Border collies are extremely active dogs as you'd know and the dogs quality of life would be significantly diminished if surgery was never pursued as it could never do anything it wants to do, wouldn't be able to run or play at the park. People in here have said is it worth putting a dog through that if they are already 8 years old? for 2-3 months of hard work, your dog will have 6 enjoyable years ahead of it. As opposed to 6 miserable years of sitting in the one spot worrying that it's knee is going to dislocate because it's ACL is ruptured. My border collie required relatively close attention over the first 6-8 weeks and by 4-5 month mark she was running around with no real issues. It's been 15 months now and she goes to the park 1-2 times a day, chases birds and runs around with other dogs with absolutely no problem at all, she doesn't think about it and you wouldn't know that she's had surgery. I didn't have her in a cage or anything like other people have. I was lucky enough to have multiple people in the house who were able to look after her. She lived inside for the first 6 weeks and was only let outside on the lead to go to the toilet, no jumping up on any bed or furniture. When the vet first explains to you how a TPLO is conducted, it's quite frightening as it's quite surgically traumatic relative to other options, but in the long term it's 100% the best option for your dog (scientific journals support this as well), additionally the dog doesn't know what's happening and they are drugged up for the first week anyway. I can't stress the TPLO option enough, the biggest struggles one would have is the cost (mine was $3100) and the high-level of care that the dog requires in the first 4 weeks especially (this is mostly ensuring the dogs physical activity is restricted) and some controlled exercises.
this is a great video on the TPLO option - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGIxCPekppk&spfreload=10
my dog underwent her operation under the care of guy yates at CARE (centre for animal referral & emergency), they are a bit pricey but came highly recommend and my dog's recovery was fantastic without a hitch.
all the best
Additionally people who have have success with no surgery for their dogs - i think you'll find that they are all small dogs. Border collies are much larger dogs with substantially larger levels of forces travelling through their knee joints - the ACL stabilises the knee and stops it from sublaxing when these moves are performed. It's extremely difficult for a medium sized highly active dog to live any high level quality of life like this
Great that your dog has done well with the surgery. You are so right. All the little dogs seem to have the best results. I am having quite good success in keeping my dog quiet at the moment. Given that the surgeon has suggested that surgery is not urgent, I will be doing the wait and see. If it is required after attempting the non surgical approach. I will have no choice but to have it done.
Have read all the comments, just want to say this:
- 8 years old is still young for a BC ! My 9-year old is snoozing at my feet right now
- please, PLEASE, take your dog to a vet before homeopathy, naturopathy, "holistic healing", acupuncture, etc.
Even at 8, you can still buy pet insurance for non-pre-existing conditions at about $36/month for ~$10,000 cover. Lots of exclusions, ifs and buts and "not covered", but still worthwhile. My guy is covered for ACL, even though I bought his policy when was 8.
My previous BC died in October 2013. She wasn't insured. Diagnosed with diabetes, spent ~$1500 on treatment; she died from unrelated causes.
Hope all turns out well for your dog.
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. As mentioned. Trying the resting method at the moment to see how we go. I would only involve the natural type vet or pet physio if surgery is a must and only for post surgery support. I will certainly be looking at having her insured for the future.
Just thought that you all may be interested in knowing that my dog is doing really well.
I kept her indoors so she could not run around. In the early days, I would put her on a lead to take her out to the toilet. When she did take off, even for limited times, she would start limping again and I would be at square one. After a few months, these episodes would be less and less.
Now, she does not limp at all. I let her out whenever needed and there is no need to keep her on a lead to go to the toilet. She basically has the freedom to do whatever she likes. When she goes outside, she runs around like she always did.
I also give her herbs for joint care.
She has become used to living inside so my next job is get her used to being an outside dog again. I think this is a small price to pay.
I am very happy with the outcome.
That's great that she is doing well.
I personally think herb treatment is BS but if it is working that is great.
However good luck with being a outside dog after living inside. She won't like it. If you do decide to do this start doing it in October when the weather is warmer.
Good idea. Thank you.
Great to read your update. I was skeptical about the non-surgery "activity restriction" option and personally would have chosen surgery, but it's obviously worked so far for your BC.
My layman's guess is that it all depends on how bad the ACL tear was. Googling "dog ACL recovery without surgery" finds many reports of success by doing as you have.
Have to agree with knick007 about the herb stuff. Also, there's no peer reviewed research showing that glucosamine and/or green lipped mussel extract do any good at all. But hey, they can't hurt.
Senior BC females are just marvellous. What's your old girl's name?
Sorry to bump an old thread but I'm curious what sort of costs for a TPLO procedure other people have had in Perth?
Only quote so far is $6-6.5k from a specialist but I'm wondering if other vet specialists in Perth would be cheaper (Waves/Murdoch)?
Dog is a 2 year old staffy/rotty, 32kg.
Have pet insurance but the injury happened during the 6 month cruciate waiting period so cost is definitely a factor (no cover).
Didn't know what TPLO was: Wikipaedia) says "TPLO or tibial-plateau-leveling osteotomy is a surgery performed on dogs to stabilize the stifle joint after ruptures of the cranial cruciate ligament (analogous to the anterior cruciate ligament [ACL] in humans, and sometimes colloquially called the same)."
$6-6.5k is eye-watering. You did everything right, but waiting periods/exclusions/fine print in pet insurance contracts are minefields.
All I can suggest is the obvious - ring around and try to negotiate. By the way, most vets don't make anywhere near as much money as people seem to think.
Sorry that this reply only offers sympathy and is otherwise useless, but maybe there's a Perth OzBargainer who can do better.
Hope all turns out well.
Appreciate the sympathy Mike, got through to the vet specialists at Murdoch today and their estimate is $4.5k which is a lot better for the same procedure. Listed here as a datapoint for anyone else who may need it in the future (this page ranks pretty high when googling the words tplo cost Perth).
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Yes, it is sad to watch her hobble around. As I have mentioned, if an operation was definately the right way to go, I would jump at it. I am also concerned by the the vet telling me that the operation should be done within 2 weeks or her knee could end up blown up like a balloon. Yet as ozcol mentioned above, he/she took a completely different approach and the collie came out if it well. I also recognize that many dogs have done well with the operation too. Thank you so much for your response.