Refused Service Because of Too Many People. Legal or Not?

Okay so 8 of my relatives came from overseas and I wanted to take them to eat some wood fire pizza at Lygon st in Melbourne. Because my relatives are all 50-70 years old, I let them rest in a park while I go up the street to look for a good restaurant. There I saw a restaurant called Villa Romana (might as well name and shame), and talked to the owner (im suspecting) who said they serve stone cooked pizzas. I asked if they would accept 10 people, and he said he will set up the table.

So I went to fetch my relatives and came to the restaurant; I talked to the waitress there who asked me if I wanted to sit inside and outside (which meant there were enough space available to accommodate us), then the owner came outside and asked me if we were only going to have pizzas and how much we were planning to order. I said 3 or 4 pizzas and then he told me he cannot serve us because they were 'too busy to have so many people ordering too little food'. Then he went on a rant about how previously he had 15 people come in and only order 2 pizzas. He was plainly rude and was going on and on about nothing infront of all the customers, embarassing us and making us feel like we have committed a crime…so we went up 3 shops up the street and spent $203 getting 4 pizzas, 1 chicken parmy with beers and orange juices. Not a whole lot by any amount but definitely not 2 pizzas. So is this legal? I still feel really angry about this

TLDR: rude owner refuses service to my relatives based on his previous experience with asian tourists who took up lots of space and only ordered 2 pizzas. (Rascial profiling?) Making me feel embarassed infront of my relatives and making my relatives feel embarassed infront of all the customers sitting out the front (everyone was staring because the owner was causing such a ruckus). My relatives are all old and DO NOT deserve to be treated like that.

Ps: I was a supervisor at an italian restaurant and I know that pizzas arent as profitable as other mains and even my boss used to not be fond of customers (mainly tourists) who orders the bare minimum because its not profitable and that tourists are not going to end up as regular customers..just one offs; however just because my relatives fit the description of typical asian tourists, doesnt mean we will order the same way. And we have never refused service to anyone because of it.

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Comments

  • +48

    Whether it is right or not, its a business decision. Perfectly legal. Owner can refuse service to whoever he wants to. Not racial profiling as according to your story its more likely he felt you would take up too many spots for the small amount you would buy (I said 3 or 4 pizzas), perhaps then sit and talk all night long.
    Nothing you can do but not go back there in future.

      • +31

        I find it an incredible leap of logic to accuse him of racial profiling despite the fact he was happy to accept you (and I'm assuming that you're, hopefully, of Asian descent, based on your willingness to racially profile "Asians")!
        Continuing that assumption, it's a sad reality that you've likely experienced actual racism at some stage in your life, but in this case you're being oversensitive.

        I think he's definitely guilty of profiling, but based on age.
        Old people don't eat much.. it's a fact.. Metabolism slows as you age.

        He's got a business to run and if he's turning away people cause your group is taking up his chairs/tables, he's losing money unless your group consumes the same amount at multiple small groups.
        That's highly unlikely with a group of older people who "skip dinner cause they had a big lunch".
        Oldies also like to rest and talk.. which means not only will your group not eat much, they'll also stay longer.

        • +4

          Agreed

          "at that time his description sounded remarkebly like what asian tourists would do"

          is an enormous leap. Owner may well have been racist to the core, but it's a stretch to make this call on the information the OP has provided.

        • +1

          Only thing that makes sense based on the info provided is age discrimination. He was happy to serve you and your friends, but not when he actually saw the group.

      • +11

        It's rude for sure and based on that not deserving of your business, I've walked out of restaurants for less.

        • +56

          ^ this is an example of Racial Profiling at its finest..

        • +22

          not sure if trolling or stupid.

        • +6

          I have you know I'll eat as much rice and noodles as you can give me……. yummmm!!!

        • +4

          @whooah1979: My brother and I eat like pigs. He and I finished a whole chicken when we were in grade 10. I can finish around 1 whole pizza and garlic bread + more if I feel hungry. My brother holds title in one of the steakhouse for completing the 1kg steak challenge.

          We both are Asians.

          Though I do have to admit there being a stereotype for Asians to eat less in general compared to white people, at least from what I gather from people around me.

        • +3

          Takeru Kobayashi hardly eats anything

        • +1

          Sounds like this guy is completely mis-understanding information, rather than racial profiling.

          It seems entirely plausible/possible to me, and not racist at all, to suggest that Asians eat less pizza and more noodles/rice. After all, noodles/rice is the staple carb in many asian countries where as breads like pizza are not. The opposite is clearly true in western countries.

          However such statements are very clearly about one's diet, and not about one's ability or willingness to eat during a single meal. Actually, now I second the 'not sure if trolling or stupid' post…

          Asians eating less in general would probably also be a statistically validated stereotype, owning to the fact that in general, people who weigh less eat less. This is probably a result of both Asians being shorter on average, and obesity being less common in Asian countries.

          Either way, I'd bet my money that the correlation between being old and eating is far stronger than the correlation between being Asian and eating less.

        • Well you obviously haven't seen me eating pizza.

        • Haven't you seen that hot dog eating champion in the US? She eats something like 50 hot dogs in 10 mins and beat all those huge men, she is a petite 5ft woman…and she is Asian!

        • Have you seen pizza hut in China? It's a ton times larger and its always almost completely full where here it is almost completely dead.

        • lol

        • @AznMitch:

          a whole chicken??

          i can eat a whole bucket of chicken and a pizza and half a carton of beer.
          maybe throw in some doritos and salsa, couple of tim tams and a ice coffee.

          one hour later i will still be hungry lol

        • @Squidmcsproggen: That was when I was in high school. I know my brother and I can pig out more if we want to but 1. budget, 2. budget, 3. budget. :S

          That being said, it's been 1 year since I've properly exercised, having no access to free gym, and it's been 3 years for my brother since he left the rowing team, so we cannot justify pigging out that much.

        • +2

          WTF has this got to do with going into a pizza shop expecting to eat pizza though you twit LEL :p

          Do you think caucasians go into a noodle shop and order less than asian customers?

        • @Forfiet: But then you are asian of course

        • My Asian friend eats pizza like she was a Ninja Turtle.

      • +2

        I think you're stretching. The manager is within his rights to refuse service. Yes, it would have been nice if he sat you but if it's a busy night, your order is quite small and they don't have the space, it's his call. I've been in establishments where managers have given us grief for being poor uni kids who had pre-drinks or exploited zero unbottling fees to eat/drink as cheaply as possible. It's not always a race thing.

        But as for the 'racial profiling'… it is a real thing. There was a fairly recent controversy over hotels removing kettles from the rooms of Chinese tourists because many such groups would just buy cup noodles and eat inside instead of patronising restaurants and such in the area. Not sure if it was in Aus or not.

    • I've seen worse from around the world. For example, this restaurant in Hong Kong (I think it was called Dairy Australia or something) had the most rudest customer service. Long queues which had an hour wait and I was reading the menu 1 minute later the waiter comes up and says what do you want. Told him I wasn't ready and his reply was.. "too bad you have to choose".. LOL… very rude but they are so busy that they can turn into work naked and still be busy as hell.

      They will also literally tell you to get the F*** out after you finish without a chance for you to digest so they can get the next customers in.

      • The lines are always long at Diary Australia. It's just courtesy to know the menu or have an idea in mind before you sit at this place, so others don't have to wait for you. Perhaps rushed and rude to some but that's how things are done in Hong Kong.

        • +2

          It's funny though because they do treat western customers alot better than the Asian ones. Its like they are racist to themselves. So all in all, business owners were probably not racist, they just react differently towards your appearance. I been rejected from entering clubs because my clothes were not up to their standards… I don't feel any racism at all but rather a discrimination to the way I dress.

      • Sounds like standard customer service in Hong Kong.
        Try drinking too slowly in a bar, and you will be asked to vacate the table :)
        I thought Chinese people never smiled until I visited the mainland.

    • AND his business practices are obviously not hurting business if he is worried about having to turn away other customers. I can see his point of view, and like to thibk i would feel the same way if i were in your position, but most likely i would be just as pissed as you.

    • +3

      You should have gone to burger king, you could have dined for days, and no one would have ever asked you to leave :)

      https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/153794

      • +1

        I was wondering when that would pop up hahahaha

  • +34

    lol @ what is essentially a restaurant owner getting angry at having customers order food off his menu.

    How dare you want to eat whatever you like from the selection they offer!

    NO SOUP FOR YOU!

  • +16

    The owner of villa romana probably thought that you guys were 10 young people with healthy appetites with coins to spend. He then changed his mind when the army of greys showed up. Bad management call by them now that you posted your bad experience on here.

    • +4

      That is probably true..I just said for 10 people, not 8 elderly tourists and my mother. But I felt so sorry towards my aunts because they should not have this sort of experience when its their first time overseas and might be the last for a couple of them.

      • +3

        Oh that's sad.

      • +3

        Meh, they can see it's an italian attitude, not an Australian one.

      • +3

        The thing about older people is though … they usually don't sweat the small things as they've worked out what's important in life.

        Don't know them but it seems unreasonable that this would be a significant negative event for them, it's just some jerk off at a restaurant at worst. I know I wouldn't care too much in the overall scheme of things.

  • +22

    Probably not the wisest business decision, surely the 10 customers that were already there are better than possible customers who may never materialise.

  • +6

    I've always heard people talking about how important it is to not chase small profit, but rather try to create a system that brings in money. At least I know that I will never go to that place if I ever go to Melbourne with my brother or if I get to move to Melbourne (being Asian and all).

    • +9

      If I was a regular customer in a restaurant, and saw something like that happened (assuming OPs account is accurate), it'd turn me off from going back too.

      • +2

        Precisely. As much as I can sort of accept not servicing as legal, it's really poor business choice. At least it's putting me off from going there.

  • Unless he specifically said no due to you being asian, then no, you don't have a legal complaint.

    • +1

      Excellent, so any racist business owner can just secretly refuse service on grounds of one's race rather than state their true reason.

      • +1

        unless you have any other evidence, that's a fact of life.

  • +2

    just a business decision . move on ( you already did)

  • +16

    TBH, if I wanted to show off Melbourne to tourists, there is no way I would take them to run the gauntlet of touts and shivs in Lygon St

    • +1

      Kinda like going to Hindley Street in Adelaide?

      • Nah more like The Parade, Norwood in Adelaide.

  • -5

    So because the owner said 15 people only ordered 2 pizzas you assume they are Asian? And you accuse him of racial profiling???

    • +12

      You havent read the whole story buddy.

  • He asked you how much you were planning to order? You should have said we can't work it out until we have all studied the menu.

    • Yea, that's really weird. I never had anyone asking how much I would be ordering before being sitted.

    • +3

      Wow this is like the equivalent of a Taxi Driver asking where you live before he lets you get in the Cab - then driving off when you give them an answer they don't like.

      • -3

        And what would be wrong with a taxi driver doing that LOL?

        • +1

          In certain countries, that's illegal. (I am not sure about Australia though)

        • +3

          @AznMitch: It's illegal here too.. But it happens.

        • +2

          @airzone: Set by law usually implies that it happens. Sigh.

      • +2

        When ever they ask me this question - I tell them where but then I walk off anyway. I live far from the CBD so it's always an awesome fare for them but I don't want some one with that attitude driving me home.

        • They're glad you walk away. Unless someone at your home wants a ride back into the City they would rather someone who doesn't live far.

  • -5

    no one can know what the owner's motives really are
    for people to say it is not racial profiling is a leap of faith in a person who has some prejudices
    maybe we are kiasu on admitting that blue eyed WASPs do not recognise racism as it does not affect them and downplay it when WOGs tentatively suggest it.
    only those who feel it can know it
    the rest can mouth platitudes

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQAmdZvKf6M
    sbs put this out once

    2 we live in denial in oz
    it never happens around us

    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/kiasu

    3 there are reputable studies of racism in oz which don't enter our consciousness
    the recent ones about ab originality have come and gone
    we brush these off as they do not affect us.

    • +8

      OK so you think the owner was racist…
      How do you explain that he was happy to accept the group intially then?

      PS. it's highly likely that the owner of the Pizza Restaurant is a 40+year old of Italian descent who most definitely has experienced racism first hand.. The Greeks and Italians were the targets of racism before the mass immigration of South East Asians.

      • -4

        i don't think.
        i am just saying it is presumptuous to dismiss any perceptions by the poster.
        I can't explain anything
        only the owner can
        and we can't get into their minds

        i am glad you pointed out that even more virulent racism existed before.
        these people also brought their own brands of racism

        we can only speculate
        you are entitled to your opinion.
        but that is all it is.
        an opinion.

        arguing does not make one more right than the other.

        the racial studies done recently or at any time were generic and consistent over years.
        they did not aim at s e asians

        I ahve seen interviews where new migrants adopt an uncle tom attitude appeasing the genteel majority who may be too thin skinned to face their alternative realities.

        aboriginals are targeted worse than any other group it seems from the recent reports on racism to them.
        if we cannot even fix this problem over 100s of years, what hope is there for more covert forms.

        excuse any typos pl.

        thank you for your opinion.
        winning a debate does not make you right.

        I have no wish to debate anyone else.
        I am expressing my opinion for the benefit of the poster.
        If others wish to hold other opinions as they have already posted they are entitled to.
        I did not seek to challeng them
        merely posted an alternative opinion.

        unless you are a psychologist or sociologist who has studied this issue then your opinion is just that.

        • Agreed.

        • +1

          @scubacoles: I think you are making one mistake there…I never said the owner wouldnt accept asian people in general, that is just being rascist, but he denied us entry because our relatives look like typical asian tourists that comes in big groups and not eat much = rascial profiling. It is true his previous experience could have been anyone, but he told me 'similar group' which I suspect were asian tourists looking for a little bit of food.

          I don't really think he would turn down a similar number of group if they looked non touristy, or looked like they had alot of money to spend.

          Maybe I am generalising myself but I was there to experience it first hand and there was no doubt in my mind he was basing his prejudice on our appearance. Quite a sour face too.

          Anyway I am not looking for any legal action but I thought there could be a way for me to report him to fair trading to get him a fine of some sorts. Am I being petty? Maybe, but the experience was foul enough for me to still be pissed off about it

        • +2

          @Zarcady:

          Totally concede you were there and I was not.

          But assuming he remembered speaking to you only minutes beforehand, he was non racist when he (likely) assumed you were a group of younger people. And that your younger group might be predominantly younger Asians.
          It was only when he saw that your group were older that he changed his mind.

          You seem to have jumped to the conclusion that he's racist despite the apparent initial evidence to the contrary.

          Old people of all races eat less than younger people.

        • -6

          @scubacoles: Who really knows what went inside his head. Hes just a typical fat man being an ass I suppose

        • +5

          @Zarcady:

          You're not helping your cause with that comment

        • +1

          @scubacoles: It doesnt matter at this point, Im over it now and Ill just be content with being immature for a little while

        • +2

          @Zarcady: I think you're turning a molehill into an idiotic mountain when the correct response it do nothing except don't go there again.

          You have no idea what was going on inside the owners head.

          Maybe he's racist.

          Maybe he just screwed up a reservation and was embarrassed.

          Maybe he promised the table to someone else.

          Maybe he's mentally ill.

          Maybe he just enjoy's being a ***hole.

        • +5

          @Diji1: haha thats exactly what I did :) I moved on, and dined at a different restaurant. There is no molehill nor a mountain; just spreading of words.

          Sure I dont know what is going on in his head but what I do know is:
          1. He was rude
          2. He accepted us, then rejected us
          3. He told us that we were taking up too much space and going to order too little food.
          4. He based that on his previous experience of a large group of people.
          5. He was rude.
          6. Did I mention he was rude?

          I dont care about his business tactics, if you are gonna turn a group of people down after initially accepting them, then dont be an asshole and make a scene. We didnt dine there so we are not his customers. At that stage, we are just people on the street that he is being rude to for no reason

        • +1

          @Zarcady:Your 6 points sound like the backstory of a romantic comedy.

        • @DrPayne1990: only if I wish that were true~ :)

        • @DrPayne1990: Mr. Darcy? Or dare I say, Edward Cullen?

        • @Zarcady: Also, I don't know if it's just me…but you have sort of made me want to go and check it out.

          Not sure why. Maybe too see if he is really such a wank to everyone…

        • @DrPayne1990: he is a big and large man maybe around 55-60 years old. He is not overtly friendly. Im sure the service is hit and miss and hopefully if you do decide to dine there, you will have a much better experience than me

        • @Peccadilloes too much talk

        • @Zarcady: scubacoles is right, the racial profiling is negated based on your previous encounter so scrap that off. It's only the age that changed everything. The evidence is clear based on everyones discussion. So try not to get upset over it because there was no racism going on here. Your assumption was the previous group was Asian tourists but the owner could have meant the previous group was just old. Also if I was a business owner 3-4 pizzas between 10 people is a major loss old or young. I think he was assuming they're going to sit all night resting and talking based on their age which makes it even worse than 10 young people.

    • Saying someone is not engaging in racist behavior (e.g. racial profiling) when there is no evidence to indicate so is NOT a 'leap of faith'.

      It's calling innocent until proven guilty. Reading the OP's account, there is nothing in there that suggests racial profiling except for this line:

      "TLDR: rude owner refuses service to my relatives based on his previous experience with asian tourists who took up lots of space and only ordered 2 pizzas. (Rascial profiling?) "

      Which the OP has already admitted is not factual. He admits later on that he doesn't even know for sure if the "previous tourists" mentioned were even asians: (OP said: "It is true his previous experience could have been anyone, but he told me 'similar group' which I suspect were asian tourists looking for a little bit of food.")

      So what we have is an account of events which, if factually accurate, have nothing to suggest racial profiling + a statement of belief that racial profiling happened based on unproven assumptions (that previous group of tourists were also Asians).

      It's true no one can know for sure, except the owner, what exactly he was thinking. However there is never a reason to accuse someone of being racist (or of any crime, really) without the tiniest shred of evidence. Especially when there is evidence to suggest the contrary (it seems the OP is also Asian, and the owner originally accepted him as a guest).

      • +1

        People have been putting too much emphasis on the rascial profiling part. That was only a small pass at what I suspected happened but the issue here at hand, which got on my nerves was how we were rejected and was subjected to feel like we did something wrong for absolutely trivial reasons.

        The title of my post was (too many people), not 'rascist owner'. And I am sure everyone here would feel indignated if they brought relatives overseas and was subjected to the same treatment that we have received.

        Nothing to be said, except if you guys are in Lygon st, be on the lookout for Villa Romana and the treatment that you 'might' receive.

        • +1

          The suggestion of racial profiling is the only reason why the question you asked in the title of your post is even worth discussing.

          Otherwise, the answer is a very clear and simple 'Yes, legal'.

        • @saintmagician0: that was all the answer I ever needed; and to let other people know to think twice before going to Villa Romana if they are ever in Lygon street.

          Whatever his reasons were, there was obviously some sort of discrimination going on; whether it be racial, age based, appearance based or something else. You do not invite someone to come in for dinner and then turn around and say you cannot afford to have these people take up space and not spend enough and be really rude about it after seeing the rest of your entourage.

          Whatever his reasons were, if he went on a tirade about his previous experience of 15 people ordering 2 pizzas between them, and base that experience as a reason to deny us entry, that IS discrimination. Maybe not racial, but discrimination nonetheless

    • -1

      There is racism in every country not just australia. Can you name one country that isnt racist?

      • +1

        You are completely missing the point

      • Don't think the OP is claiming racism but rather it being bullshitted refused service without knowing how much food they were going to order.

      • Antarctica

  • +24

    Best thing to do is write a full review on urbanspoon & tripadvisor - just write it in plain language, nondefamatory (or the business owner can remove it). Potentially thousands will read it every week.

    • That's if the restaurant is well known enough and people actually look it up before going… Still worth a shot

      • +2

        Personally, if I'm in an area I'm unfamiliar with and looking for a meal, the first thing I do is fire up urbanspoon/yelp/tripadvisor and read reviews of local restaurants. Some are a bit stupid (I do recall one customer trying to blame a bali restaurant for having too many mosquitoes and making the sunset finish too quickly!) but otherwise can be a good pointer to what's good or not, and what's good on the menu.

    • +6

      Reviews like that are often good for a laugh, as like with OP they mix a bad experience with their own insecurities and their story is often not 100% true, they just come off looking petty…

      • +1

        Hardly insecurities. Ive lived in australia long enough to have accepted its shortcomings as well as its benefits. What I dont like is the way the owner treated my aunts like they have done something wrong based on their appearance. Why should we feel outcasted when we are there to spend money? This has never happened to me and Im sure if this has happened to you and your relatives, you would not be pleased as well. If he was polite and was nicer about it, I wouldnt have been so furious but he had a frown the whole time and he didnt even pretend to be discreet about it, every customer he had in the tables outside were looking at us.

        • +2

          This has nothing to do with racisim. He said yes to you.

          Older people generally eat less. You confirmed that to the manager when you said you may want as few as 3 pizzas for 8 seats.

          Older people generally eat slower, keeping tables tied up for longer.

          Non of this has anything to do with race.

          Many younger people I know will spend ~$50 per person when out for diner, not $25 each. From what you told the manager, he was expecting a spend of less than $10 each.

          Yes the manager was rude, but he expected (and may have needed) those seats to have atleast 4x more turnover than what you said you were you were prepaired to spend.

        • +1

          @This Guy: You are just rehashing everything that has already been said before, making a few crucially flawed assumptions yourself.
          Yes apparently refusing based on appearance is legal
          Yes he assumed we would spend alot less than we did
          Yes the manager/owner was rude
          No he did not have to be as rude as he did
          No you would not feel pleasant if this happened to you.

          The legality of his actions have been discussed extensively thus far, with numerous people giving their best guess at what he may or may not have thought, and there is no need to further guess at what went through his head.

          But if this happened to you and your relatives on their day out, would you really stand there and think logically as to why he created such a fuss? NO, you will be as pissed off as I was and think that he was an asshole.

          The discussion part of this thread has long been over; I would just like to let other people know of what may potentially happen to them, should they decide to dine at this restaurant.

        • +1

          @Zarcady:

          Sorry mate, I read your first few posts and thought "based on their appearance" still referred to racism (not just age).

          After I posted this I noticed the discussion had matured.

  • +10

    OP was not refused service because of too many people, but because he estimated too few pizzas.

    • +3

      Pro tip for the future: Estimate 3x actual consumption.

  • OP, I don't like it either but it's legal.

    If you were to own a restaurant yourself, you can choose whom you want to serve as well.

  • +1

    The restuarant does not deserve to be in business! Boycott the joint I say (in the same way that I boycott Harvey Norman, Brakes Plus and a number of other businesses and organisations.)

  • actually it is hard to say this.
    there are many businesses which may be worse ripper offs.
    we need to vote out governments which dont police consumers laws first
    they may be exclusive like some 5* places which refuse admission to ozbargainers because they don't want their business

  • +6

    I'm confused - since when did 4 pizzas not cover ~12-15 people? When we go to dinner we order 1 pizza for 3 of us.

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