Not Just Cheap Prices but Cheap Ethics Too?

afoveht on 02/04/2015 - 15:31
Last edited 02/04/2015 - 15:33

Ozbargain members continually post and upvote deals that involve the suffering of nonhumans. Cheap bacon, milk, KFC, woolen items, etc. are met with cheers. Yet someone posts about cage eggs and all hell breaks loose.

Do people not realise that pigs are often confined their entire lives in small stalls where they cannot even turn around? That dairy cows are repeatedly force-impregnated in order to get them to lactate and their children taken from them and killed? That broiler chickens wallow in their own excrement right up until they are rounded up like basketballs into shipping boxes destined for the slaughterhouse? That sheep have their rear ends torn to shreds so that a species that has no right business in this country can survive long enough to produce a profit for their owners?

Why are Ozbargainers so whimsical and irrational when it comes to animal exploitation?

Site Discussion

Comments

  • ChrisLevo on 03/04/2015 - 14:40
    +1

    Do you need to take supplements if all you eat are vegans?

    • tommy-darko on 03/04/2015 - 14:56
      +5

      Yes as they are mainly skin and bone with little nutritional value.

  • infinite on 03/04/2015 - 16:16

    Because they don't call them the great unwashed masses, because there's only a few of them.

  • inherentchoice on 03/04/2015 - 18:21

    You may base your choice upon "ethics".

    Mine is based upon Genesis 9:3

    http://biblehub.com/genesis/9-3.htm

    • [Deactivated] on 03/04/2015 - 19:54
      +6

      Religion… Ethical? lol, good one. April fools has been and gone.

      • inherentchoice on 03/04/2015 - 20:43
        -5

        I am saying my position is NOT based on "ethics". It is based upon a command given by the highest authority.

        • [Deactivated] on 03/04/2015 - 23:41
          +5

          I'm not a Christian, or religious… but I sort of used to be, and admire those who have real faith (as opposed to 'faith' to fit in with the friendly church crowd.)

          What I'm trying to say, is that some religious people, such as yourself, really need to learn to communicate with non-religious folks without sounding like a douchebag. Why? Because an arrogant attitude makes the rest of the religious folks look bad :S

        • iridiumstem on 04/04/2015 - 13:21
          +1

          I am just going to throw this and run away, Battle of Jericho.

        • DrStinge on 07/04/2015 - 17:51

          Root access?!

    • birnie on 04/04/2015 - 09:28

      Nice verse that doesn't actually cover what's being discussed.
      Whether you're for cruelty for animals or not, either way, they're eating them.
      You need a sub claus..9-3.a ) Thou shalt not cage animals before partaking in zinger burger deluxe meal

  • MustacheFire on 03/04/2015 - 18:24
    +2

    it is good to be consistent. For my part, I like kfc and only buy caged eggs. If I truly cared about the animals I wouldn't be eating them

  • CheapCoffee on 03/04/2015 - 21:10
    +6

    I honestly think that any discussion in regarding animal welfare and ethics is a great thing and it is quite appropriate for a bargain website as a consumer group. I agree that many of the problems you have presented above are real issues that needs to be addressed (although a little bit exaggerated) and thankfully, there is a genuine power that consumers hold which are shaping and changing the industry's attitude.

    However, I think you are approaching this at a wrong angle.

    Cheap bacon, milk, KFC, woolen items, etc.

    and many other animal products are what most people consider as a basic consumer goods. I understand that it can be replaced with other non-animal products, but our culture of consuming these goods cannot change in a such rapid and radical fashion to facilitate these ethical concerns. And, as you have pointed out, the changing attitude towards different egg production has been going on for decades and people have realised that it is something they can contribute towards by using their wallet which is not the case for many other animal products. I think is this is the case especially for milk which is mainly dominated by pasture based southern Australian dairy system in Australia when you are comparing to non-pasture based northern hemisphere style.

    When there is a commercially viable option that can be supported by most people's budget AND it is supported by a changing mindset of the society, things will change. Very slowly.

    Hence, I believe it is important that the advocates of animal welfare should be trying to work and liaise with the industry to formulate plans to solve known issues rather than trying to push their extremest ideas to the general public.

  • anonymous01 on 04/04/2015 - 00:45
    +4

    Sorry I have had few drinks, but who is the judge? At what line to do you define life? Every moment millions of bacteria is killed and millions more is born. Does that mean I shouldn't wash hands? Isn't that genocide? At what line or size do you define life matters? What about ants? or killing spiders in your room because their 6 legs creep you out? Just because they are small in size they have less of a right to live? How many ants do you kill every day by accidentally stepping on them? At what size do you start defining that killing this animal is cruel and such size is not? or do you judge by intelligence? If so, ants and bees are some of the most intelligent insects out there. But who cares about them? Is it OK to kill a snake? When a Lion or Tiger kills a prey in the most brutal way, are they committing a crime? Don't get me wrong, I know in any of the examples I gave, life is not confined in a cage or tortured, just like I wouldn't want to be treated that way. But then again, I do not want to be ripped to pieces and someone eating chunks of my flesh just like a wild animal does. We are no one to judge. We are subjective and everything we see and feel is through our own experience. We feel empathy for those suffering only because we know we don't wish to suffer that way. I know I don't wish to be caged or suffer like those animal, but how do we know those animals suffer? Do they think? F it, I am going to regret this post in the morning, but I always get deep when I get drunk. I think this post is more towards vegans than it is against you. Sorry like I said, I am drunk. Hmmmm…..

    • Nonverbose on 04/04/2015 - 02:33
      +10

      Spiders have 8 legs..

    • [Deactivated] on 07/04/2015 - 20:58
      +1

      how do we know those animals suffer?

      Just like we know if someone other than yourself is suffering. There are many indicators that suggest if someone is in good health or not. You know that someone is fearing for it's life because it knows it's going to die, when it is screaming and scattering everywhere to get away from the thing that causes pain to it.

      I eat all meats and I agree it is savage especially when alternatives are available. However I have reduced my consumption and also prefer higher welfare meat. Sometimes I cut my own chicken and everytime I do so, I know it is a living thing, quite unlike the sanitised bloodless and packaged meat which alienates you from violence and cruelty that happens on an industrial scale. It is pretty sad but hey, I believe that the question of animal liberation comes after human liberation. A lot of first world yuppies ignore all the human suffering that happens in other countries and care more about the "local animals' welfare" it is sad. First these people need to stop your government from getting involved in destructive wars if they really care about animals as well. People in war zones will destroy and utilise anything that is available in the surrounding that would serve their purpose.

    • Thaal Sinestro on 09/04/2015 - 02:33
      +1

      I like your drunken thoughts… All non-photosynthetic lifeforms live at the expensive of other organisms - bacteria, virii, protozoa, fungii, insects, mammals. Judgements about which lifeforms it is okay to slaughter/exploit and which aren't are purely arbitrary. Morality is a human construct, completely alien to predatory big cats, malaria spreading mosquitos, fire ants, tuberculosis causing bacteria, etc.

      Chinese people don't seem to have any of the culinary taboos we Westerners have (like about eatings dogs). Rhino are being poached into extinction because wealthy Communist limp-|%#*s believe it will cure their impotence. It's just a placebo, but because they pay so much for powdered horn, they get a strong placebo effect.

      Human beings have, and still are, causing a lot of harm to the environment and other species, but that is inevitable with 7 billion of them all wanting to live like Americans. Personally I think we should start sterilizing a large chunk of the world's population, starting with those most likely to overbreed. Gradually downsize the world's human population back to 1 billion.

  • This Guy on 04/04/2015 - 01:57
    +2

    Plants, animals and bacteria all reproduce. When humans eat they torture bacteria.

    It doesn’t matter what I eat. If I heat food I am cooking microorganisms alive. If I don't heat food I am kill microorganisms with a pit of acid.

    Why do I care so much about microorganisms? 90% of the cell count in my body is microorganisms. We share many species with plants and animals. So when I eat many of my microorganisms are fed the processed remains of other microorganisms from their own species.

    We kill plants and animals for food. Most of the crops we use today have been genetically engineered for thousands of years to produce resistance and high yields. Crop yield has been pushed plants so far that they can topple and die before being harvested. But we could never feed our current population with the un-genetically engineered base plants. And it would cost too much to just harvest wild crops.

    For animal products we keep animals imprisoned for easy use of their products. To get their products, we assault them (try shaving a ladies body, against her will, in public), often killing them. We boil bones to make jelly.

    We treat all organisms with contempt. So where is the line drawn? (I am going to leave it to animals as that was your concern):

    Outlaw human consumption of animals? Many species of farmed animals will go extinct.

    Provide animals with a minimum amount of space? How much space? The same as a human in a slum? A studio apartment?

    What about interaction with other animals? How do we stop them from fighting and killing each other?

    Leave animals in the wild? How do we justify killing a mother or a child? (These animals have been allowed to grow emotional attachments).

    If you give animals the best possible care and only consume the naturally dead, animal products are suddenly only viable for the mega wealthy.

    Ethics and standards are human concepts to make society function smoother. People are treated 'ethically' to make compliance more likely. I choose to find my happiness elsewhere.

  • tyler.durden on 04/04/2015 - 08:54

    Do vegans/vegetarians go to a different heaven from meat eaters?

    • grasstown on 04/04/2015 - 14:37

      No same heaven ( or hell). But what does eating meat have to do with the point the op is making?

  • Ryxxi on 04/04/2015 - 09:16
    +2

    and how many of you vegans smoke Cigarette's and ruining this environment. I used to work at a hospital lab and god knows of the 12 year old's got cancer because of environment changes. Not to mention all the vegans who drive a cars or use aeroplanes to travel. There is no justification in eating vegan diet to save animals when you are polluting the environment in other ways. Electricity included.

    • belongsinforums on 04/04/2015 - 11:18
      +2

      While I agree with your apparent hatred of egocentric vegos, an 'all or nothing' approach is quite extreme. Environmentally, it is not about 'saving' animals, but rather reducing the amount of animals that are born. There is no doubt that it is, in most cases, less harmful to the planet we rely on to eat more plants than animals. It is even better for YOU to eat more vegetables than meat :)

      The obvious solution is to draw the line down the middle and reduce your meat intake (especially beef), and increase your vegetable intake (without compromising your health or budget).

      David Suzuki, an environmental scientist, has an excellent autobiography. He's a meat eater, too!

  • sigh on 04/04/2015 - 11:20
    +6

    This reminds me of when PETA got to Pink( the pop star) and got her to endorse and be the face of an advertising campaign to stop australian farmers from docking sheep (removing their tails). She was determined to stop the practice as it was 'inhumane and barbaric practice and totally uneccessary from what PETA had told her.
    Someone kindly told her why sheep are docked in Australia. They get 'fly blown'. If the tails aren't removed sh*t gets stuck to their tails and arse which flies are attracted to and lay their eggs as its the perfect breeding zone. Fly eggs hatch and the larvae start feeding and will actually burrow into the animal and eat them from inside out. Slow, painful and incredibly inhumane. Thats what PETA were advocating. Sheep be eaten alive by flies.
    Some animal activists have the best of intentions but i think some are just blindly ignorant, a brief moment if pain to lose your tail or be eaten alive by larvae, your choice?
    Pink retracted everything she said and apologised. Politley told PETA to get nodded and get their facts right, you cant pick and choose your facts to support an argument like they did.

    Thevofa, if you noticed of late the colesworth monopoly are actually both phasing out pork sourced from sow stalls, and significantly reducing caged eggs( at least at the ones in my area) efforts are being made, but people will only pay so much.

    • grasstown on 04/04/2015 - 14:40
      +3

      If you build it they will come. Woolworths and Coles play a big part in this problem. It's more profitable.

      • sigh on 04/04/2015 - 21:40

        Yep, bet if you kept track over nex 12-18months they'll increase price of pork due to increases in production costs to get rid of sow stalls. I've already noticed bacon has crept up.

  • ChickenTalon on 04/04/2015 - 13:14
    +6

    Each to their own, and only to their own.

    I would not support a deal where cages eggs were used but not declared. The things that were going on with the sneaky labeling (i.e. "free to roam" scam) I very much disagreed with. Retailers should be honest.

    What you don't want to eat is up to you. If you've got a problem with caged eggs then you shouldn't be forced to eat them, but should you stop others eating them? Should you be right to down vote each deal into oblivion? Where do you draw the line?

    If you don't like the concept of caged eggs and you want to down vote a deal. Would you support these examples also?

    • Someone down voting every food deal where caged eggs are used in their production? most fast food and a lot of other supermarket goods etc
    • Down voting every deal from a retailer that also sells caged eggs?
    • Someone who thinks eating any meat is as cruel as caged eggs, they're permitted to vote down any deal that involves meat?
    • Someone who thinks that eating meat is against their religion, are they permitted to down vote every meat deal? what about alcohol?
    • Someone who believes that women shouldn't be educated beyond high school, could they be right to vote down any udemy deal because they're available to women?

    No, I don't agree with any of these examples, and the last one is particularly abhorrent to me. However where does the line get drawn?

    It's a slippery slope when you start forcing others to live by yours rules. It becomes reasonable to expect others to force their views on you.

    • woz on 04/04/2015 - 15:13

      How dare you post to a site such as Ozbargain in a reasonable and thoughtful manner. The absolute gall of some people!

      • ChickenTalon on 04/04/2015 - 15:31
        +2

        The hypocrisy displayed in the last caged egg deal finally motivated me to articulate my thoughts. For whatever they're worth down the page on an OzB forum. The negging because the deal was upfront about the caged aspect of the eggs, yet most of the neggers also voting + on deals where caged eggs were used but not disclosed.

        Yesterday, driving the 200km to the Snowy Mountains I committed mass murder in the eyes of some when I drove my car through swarms of moths and insects. Yet stood on the breaks to avoid a fox, which I could have easily run over with little concern to my life or property (one of the most destructive introduced species in Australia after cats and rabbits). So i'm not some bastion of reasonableness either.

  • [Deactivated] on 04/04/2015 - 14:16

    Im eating kfc and enjoying every bit of it.

    • grasstown on 04/04/2015 - 14:43
      +1

      You gotta admit, it tastes bad when you are slightly full and thinking about all the chemicals and pain in that tasteless chicken covered in tasty fried spices.

      • [Deactivated] on 04/04/2015 - 17:26

        I dont always eat kfc but when I do…. look out.

        I get to the stuffed point and slow down

  • woz on 04/04/2015 - 15:20
    +5

    How many vegans does it take to screw in a light bulb? Answer: none. After they found out that fish are killed when they get washed through the hydro-electricity turbines, they opted to forgo electricity and sit in the dark.

    • woz on 06/04/2015 - 15:35
      +1

      Wow. Someone negged the joke. Must have been one of those vegans that bang on about ethics while at the same time opting to pick and choose which ethics they'd like to ignore for convenience like the rest of us.

      • woz on 07/04/2015 - 12:08
        +3

        And again. Amazing the number of hypocrites that espouse PARTIAL ethics.

  • Dan_ on 04/04/2015 - 16:35

    After reading this, I'm going to buy veal for the first time ever.

  • antzz on 04/04/2015 - 17:33

    By my ethics your post fails. My ethics good quality cheap price is the most ethical thing in the world

  • Grok on 04/04/2015 - 21:27
    +1

    While I agree with the OP in theory but (I was a vegetarian for over 10 years, my health went to crap but that is another story) the OP seems to be against ALL animal products for food not just about cruelty.

    That is a BIG ask.

    I mainly eat seafood now for animal protein, all the fish I eat are mostly carnivores some omnivores (sardines), so they are not squeaky clean either.

    Do you realise that if we did not eat beef or cheese or drink milk, cows would not exist. They would have no reason to exist. They certainly live a longer and more contented life than the brutal life of a similar animal on the African savanna.

    We can though improve our treatment of them for sure.

  • BartholemewH on 04/04/2015 - 22:03

    I had a cheese omelette for dinner last night. I had bacon and eggs for breakfast this morning. I'm having roast pork for lunch tomorrow. It's the simple things in life that are often the best.

  • tikei on 04/04/2015 - 22:06
    +2

    I kind of understand why the op is annoyed. I get the impression that she's not hating on ppl eating caged eggs, but rather the self-righteous, hypocritical, and ignorant ppl (negging caged eggs but upping kfc deals, for example, which uses caged eggs) in the other thread that got to her.

    Think her point is more of "open your damn eyes and don't live in your self delusional world where what you see is to your convenience" sorta thing.

    On a side note, I think ozb should not allow negging based on ethical stance. Ppl could just neg alcohol deals, most electronics deals even if they're the cheapest, solely because alcohol may lead to accidents or violence and electronics are probably made in China in horrible working conditions, etc, etc

  • Wallyt99 on 05/04/2015 - 08:59

    I sure could go a cheap pie right now.

  • tonyjzx on 05/04/2015 - 11:25
    +1

    i like eating pork and beef and all that

    so i stay away from the politics and that because i want to enjoy my food

    sure i understand meat in unsustainable and eggs and pork and fish arent farmed right

    but i really dont want to know when I'm tucking into a hamburger

    stick to your bean curds and tofu and leave me alone

  • dlakers3peat on 05/04/2015 - 13:02

    Ignorance is bliss

  • Adz81 on 05/04/2015 - 20:21
    +3

    Don't YOU realize bacon is delicious?

    I sleep ok at night.

    Additional: Unfortunately, almost the entire populous (not just OZB) that will choose when and where to apply their version of ethics. I drink Paris Creek Milk, because I know that they don't continually force impregnate their cows, because the milk tastes sensational and there's that glorious chunk of cream… As far as bacon goes? Have at it… Give me bacon or give me death… On the eggs? I choose free range eggs because they're available readily to me at nil cost… That said, I do not choose to push my thoughts on food to others… I think that fast food is crap and don't eat it, but if others want to, good for them… I eat the way I do because it works for me, that's it… Point me towards cheap bacon & I'll upvote… point out cheap KFC and I'll ignore it, but not comment… Like sheeple, I take note of what affects me directly…

  • Topdog on 05/04/2015 - 20:28
    -3

    everyone on ozbar are up themselfs. uneducated fools

    • iridiumstem on 05/04/2015 - 23:41

      I love how your grammar is worse than someone who've only started learning English from grade 6. :3

    • mooboy on 07/04/2015 - 20:28

      You're on 'ozbar'.

  • Adz81 on 05/04/2015 - 20:31

    *themselves

  • Cobalt_ on 05/04/2015 - 23:19
    +4

    A preachy vegan? Never seen one of those before -____-

  • Cluster on 06/04/2015 - 01:16
    +1

    Some Ozbargainers are vegetarians and avoid all the problems the OP has specified.

  • [Deactivated] on 06/04/2015 - 10:18
    +2

    I disagree on the term "cheap". I don't come here looking for "cheap". I come here looking for "value". There is a difference, whether one applies it to consumerism or ethics. Or morals, for that matter.

  • jeffjj on 06/04/2015 - 12:28
    +1

    I'm confused, are some animals ok to exploit for meat, milk and eggs, but not others? For example, I don't know many people who would consider dog burgers acceptable, but many don't care if the burger contains beef, pork, or chicken. How do we rationalise the suffering of some animals but react in horror at the idea of other animals (Eg cats, dogs) being eaten or exploited?

    • sigh on 06/04/2015 - 15:36
      +3

      Guessing you haven't travelled Asia or africa at all? You'd realise we limit our diets in western society because we see cats and dogs as pets, insects as pests etc.
      If you look at other societies you'd realise thats a silly argument, sometimes you eat what is available, veganism is a majorly western philosophy, and its because we have the abundant resources to choose that 'lifestyle' others don't. The preachy veganism that ignores that fact is what annoys me. Its your choice, not everyone has that choice by financial means or situational circumstance.

      • jeffjj on 06/04/2015 - 16:36

        I asked someone to explain why eating beef is ok but eating dogs is not… That is not preaching. It is an attempt to understand what appears to me to be a double standard. If your argument is that all animals and insects should be available to be eaten, then that is fine, good luck to you, but I guess many dog owners in Australia would disagree.

      • jeffjj on 06/04/2015 - 16:43
        +1

        And actually I'm not vegan, for what it is worth. I'm just trying to see if we can get past name calling to understand how we ignore the suffering of some animals yet are horrified at the suffering of others.

        • iridiumstem on 06/04/2015 - 17:00
          +3

          I think your perception of dogs being pet is very western centric. For many years, at least the places that I know that eat dogs, dogs are looked at as livestocks. They lived outside and they were not considered as "men's best friend". The notion of dogs as men's best friend, is actually very western-centric idea as well. As far as I know, the idea about raising the dog indoor and treating as a pet happened after the western culture started to get assimilated into our culture back in my home country. So your argument about double standard really doesn't hold because dogs were treated like an livestock back then. As matter of fact, at least in my home country, not many people eat dogs nowadays and those people who eat dogs are usually old people who still retained their old ideas.

          This idea of dogs being an livestock comes from the fact that back in the days, we didn't have any cheap source of protein. Cows were the tools that we farmed with, it was expensive to eat beef as a result. Chicken and eggs were also expensive, back in the days, serving an egg to a guest meant he's someone very special (in normal household at least). That's why when son-in-law comes down to the countryside (once a year or less than that) to meet the parents, they often killed one of the hens that they had (it still is a valid cliche in many movies). Dogs were eaten during peak of the summer when it was easy to get sick from malnutrition, it was eaten because 1. it was a livestock 2. we couldn't really eat anything else back then.

          I obviously am not an expert on this matter, but that's what I know from the cultural perspective.

          Also, if you want to go into what is right for eating and what is not, it goes a lot into the cultural aspects, which goes into what was available and other various factors. We can eat more things than what we accept as food. Insects are considered to be a part of cuisine in many non-Western places. The idea of drinking milk is something relatively new in Eastern culture, etc. It's going to time consuming and it's going to be very unfair to bring Western values into these, imo.

        • sigh on 06/04/2015 - 17:03

          Sorry, no malice at you at all!
          I'm a dog owner too and don't like the idea, but other societies see it differently thats all. I don't have the answers for sure. The best i know is "ignorance is bliss" which is sad to say. By all means i try to source what i eat from ethical sources but the dollar wins out unfortunately, i don't have the disposable income to shop 'local, organic, ethically treated, raised, fed, slaughtered/picked' produce, my grocery bill would be my biggest expense otherwise!

        • jeffjj on 06/04/2015 - 17:55

          @AznMitch: ok fair points you raise. But in the Australian context, I struggle to see why it is Ok to eat fish (which I do) but not dogs (which I don't!)

        • iridiumstem on 06/04/2015 - 18:54
          +1

          @jeffjj: I personally think it's because we are earthly beings who are influenced by both culture and the evolution of our digestive system etc.

        • belongsinforums on 06/04/2015 - 20:04

          @jeffjj: Dogs were kind of 'created' by people to be our slaves pets. In addition, dog tastes like crap. I can see why

        • iridiumstem on 07/04/2015 - 13:23

          @tomkun01: Dog is my slave name, call me "woof woof woof" or in short, "woof".

        • belongsinforums on 07/04/2015 - 22:05

          @AznMitch: meow

        • iridiumstem on 09/04/2015 - 14:09

          @tomkun01: HERESY!

      • belongsinforums on 06/04/2015 - 20:05

        I'd imagine the roots of vegetarianism to go back to buddhism. Hardly western.

    • JohnHowardsEyebrows on 07/04/2015 - 13:20
      +1

      Apropos dogs - I find vegans who keep them hypocritical. They have to eat meat, therefore keeping them is either cruel to the dog (to those who don't give them meat), or cruel to the animals needed to provide the meat to the dog.

      Animals eating one another is a part of nature, and, though there are good arguments for going vego, the cognitive dissonance of the militant vegans is ridiculous.

      Let's treat animals humanely in every instance, but let's also not ignore the realities of the world we inhabit.

  • Oliver on 06/04/2015 - 17:18
    -6

    In general, ozbargainers are lower socio-economic people trawling for cheap deals. (There are, of course, exceptions!)
    In general, people of lower socio-economic backgrounds are less intelligent and less educated. Therefore they are more likely to be irrational, whimsical and emotional/reactionary to certain things such as buzzwords and topics they understand vs. topics they don't understand or are not aware of.
    Thus, as soon as something simple and well known like cage eggs is brought up, they react to it despite not reacting the same way to your previous examples.

    Yes I made some generalisations and that's why I said "in general".

    Inc downvotes because no one likes to be called stupid.

    • iridiumstem on 06/04/2015 - 17:20
      +2

      There are a lot of university students here as well.
      Just sayin'.

      • Oliver on 06/04/2015 - 17:21

        Yes, the exceptions.

        • iridiumstem on 06/04/2015 - 17:27
          +3

          I don't think you can say "exceptions" without actually looking into the numbers and stuff.
          I've seen some popular deals such as Office 365 for students and staff which does tell me that there are people involved in education sectors and students.
          Also, even though a bargain is more favoured in "lower socio-economic" groups, I am certain that everyone likes bargains, so you cannot claim that bargains would attract only the "lower socio-economic" groups. Not to mention, there are a lot of people who just comes on the forum.
          Furthermore, your point about "lower socio-economic" groups being uneducated becomes fuzzy when you look at immigrants, international students and
          university students in general.

          In short, you cannot call a group an outlier without stats.

        • jeffjj on 06/04/2015 - 17:37
          +2

          @AznMitch:
          So called "lower socio-economic" includes the chronically ill , single mothers, drug users etc… No reflection on their intelligence, more their circumstances

        • Oliver on 06/04/2015 - 22:33

          @jeffjj:
          In his defense, I personally did bring up a point about their intelligence.

        • iridiumstem on 07/04/2015 - 04:51

          @jeffjj: I used quotation marks? Though, I have to admit, I didn't really go into that point, since I thought I've pretty much proven that intelligence don't come into "lower-economic" group with notion of university students.

          I simply liked the notion of using simple undergrad/high school stats more, since well, I loved the irony of getting the simple stats wrong more than going into demographical categorisation information.

    • Serapis on 06/04/2015 - 23:14
      +1

      Funny you say this 'ozbargainers are lower socio-economic people trawling for cheap deals' but you yourself are a user. Are you sure you are talking of others or are you actually describing yourself / being a condescending trash heap or a mixture of the two? Or perhaps you are an alias of Gerry Harvey?

    • antzz on 07/04/2015 - 12:10
      +2

      What an ignorance comments. Lower socio economics can not afford to spend so much on unnecessary items in ozbargain. They have only enough for food housing and basic necessary items. The priorities of ozbargainers and lower socio economics are completely different.

      Most ozbargainers are in the middle up rung of society with time to spare and money to burn on simple luxuries in life.

      Some of us also come from $100k+ salary

  • Serapis on 06/04/2015 - 23:09
    -1

    This ain't Whingebargain… THIS IS OZBARGAIN! Kick

  • JohnHowardsEyebrows on 07/04/2015 - 13:00
    -1

    OP's presumed point - that some products involving animal cruelty are embraced, while other, more obvious cases, are blasted for cruelty – is lost with the ridiculous and self-serving examples of ‘cruelty.’

    Cheap bacon - sure, plenty of ethical issues. Milk – please enlighten us. Wool – you’re a moron.

    • afoveht on 07/04/2015 - 22:30

      Dairy cows are the products of intense selective breeding in order to get them to generate as much milk as possible and they suffer chronically for it. They are repeatedly impregnated in order to get them lactating, their children are taken away and killed for veal so you can take their milk, slaughtered when their milk production wanes below economically efficient levels.

      Sheep suffer mulesing, dehorning, castration a well as shearing. Not moronic at all.

      • JohnHowardsEyebrows on 08/04/2015 - 00:54

        Oh great, we've got Pink here on Ozbargain, saving the sheep from the Clayton's cruelty of being a sheep.

      • imcold on 08/04/2015 - 23:02
        +3

        So what is worse getting forced to produce milk or getting risk getting eaten by a carnivore every waking or sleeping moment of your life in the wild. Mind you some predators eat their prey alive as each second they are not eating increase the risk that their meal will be interrupted by larger predator after your kill. At any time the cow might risk starving to death or dying from dehydration. These certainly are not a pleasant way to die.

        I guess its the price of Animal husbandry for the animal. It ensure they are relatively safe from predators for them and their offspring, in some cases they will be sheltered from the elements. An untimely death is guaranteed either in the wild or those in farms. At-least if an animal is being breed for profit it ensures the survival of the species as a whole. You do know there is only 1 single population of wild cows in the whole world left. Wild cows are pretty much extinct.

        Yes bobby calves are an unfortunate victims of the Dairy Industry.

  • rompastompa on 07/04/2015 - 17:35
    +2

    I think more importantly, is the issue of meat consumption increase. It's going to get worse before it gets better.

    Westerners were/are the main meat consumers, with US eating on average 120KG of meat per person per year. China used to only eat 100g per year, this is ever increasing due to the wealth the country is making.

    Now countries that now have more money, are eating more meat. Countries in South America, Africa, Asia. What is going to happen when more and more of the poorer countries start eating meat?

    I'd recommend watching :
    http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/mandarin/en/article/2014/…
    http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/mandarin/en/article/2014/…

    • ankor on 08/04/2015 - 17:56

      damnit both videos already expired.

  • swilso on 07/04/2015 - 19:59
    +1

    Wonder what OP eats or if you have given a thought to what you are eating? I personally wouldn't eat something that I wouldn't shy from killing myself, if needed. I've grown broilers in the past but it's much more convenient to just buy a chook and not as messy!

    • woz on 07/04/2015 - 20:09
      +3

      If OP drives a car, uses any form transport other than a bicycle, uses electricity off the grid, then they're not a full vegan. They're a pretend vegan. And the most appalling kind of all - a pretend vegan that preaches about ethics while conveniently choosing which ethics to apply themselves.

      • A Banana4scale on 08/04/2015 - 15:18

        I like how this discussion has turned into attacking the OP's dietary preference.

        • woz on 08/04/2015 - 15:38
          +2

          If you'll remember, this discussion started with the OP attacking everyone ELSE'S dietary preferences.

        • iridiumstem on 08/04/2015 - 18:40
          +1

          @woz: Or rather, I am better than others because I am a vegan attitude that came along with it.

  • Lucky13 on 08/04/2015 - 14:38
    +2

    I in no way support exploitation of animals etc and am conscious of the amount of meat I eat and am trying to cut down and your hearts in the right place with posting this, but I did notice you posted a thread on cheap toilet rolls and well thats damaging for the environment. Just thought it was worth pointing out, but all of us should really be mindful of the things we do and the impact it causes to everything around us and try our best to do the right thing when we can

    • RockyRaccoon on 08/04/2015 - 16:04

      I did notice you posted a thread on cheap toilet rolls

      LOL you mean people in outhouse's shouldn't throw shit…

  • garage sale on 08/04/2015 - 19:23
    +1

    We see the price of free range eggs drop as they become mainstream. Most of our beef is grass fed in the open, land is cheap, and grass is cheaper than wheat. We will probably see better treatment of pigs as supermarkets see the benefits of product differentiation, and the price come down. Veal will always be a problem.

    Luckily we have more choices in product selection for humanely treated animals than we did 10 years ago. Consumer demand will drive that to extend beyond just eggs.

    Go into coles for a bbq chicken, it's RSPCA or free range now, Safeway will follow eventually if they see it getting customers in the door.

    • JohnHowardsEyebrows on 08/04/2015 - 22:41

      Veal will always be a problem so long as baby cows are cute, but the practices of veal farming have improved in Australia, whereby we no longer produce the white meat, which results from penning the calves in.

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