Melatonin 3g (or slow release), need it in bulk and cheaply

scrimshaw on 09/08/2015 - 22:57
Last edited 09/08/2015 - 22:58

I'm having trouble sleeping and been relying too much on Zolpidem.
I'm sleeping like once every two days and it's killing me.

Melatonin works for me however it costs a whopping 37 dollars to buy one packet in Australia, and there's only 12 in a pack.
Sellers on eBay are selling it for around $15~18 bucks for a bottle containing 60 doses, but i'm wondering if anyone has found a source for cheaper.
Preferably 3mg and in bulk (say 300 pills in a go, but I'm afraid it will be confiscated by customs).

They were also cheaper some years back, but prices have increased slowly.

Will have a $50 eBay voucher soon so any ebay links will be greatly appreciated.

Find Me A Bargain

Comments

  • nocure on 09/08/2015 - 22:58
    +2

    To much screen time.lol

    Have you tried the melatonin sleep spray?

  • what on 09/08/2015 - 23:06

    Have you tried iherb.com? I have bought it there and it is not that expensive.

    • scrimshaw on 09/08/2015 - 23:25

      Hey, that looks good. Thanks; I ordered 2x bottles containing 240 of 3mg ones. Let's see if it works.

      • Hipmumma on 09/08/2015 - 23:37

        We use the orange labelled ones from iherb :) someone said they bought the exact same brand from the pharmacist. We use the liquid dropper one tho and it works fine :)

      • UncommonName on 09/08/2015 - 23:41

        Link? I used to consume it, may come handy in future.

      • what on 09/08/2015 - 23:47

        I hope it works for your.

        Iherb have always been good. Orders only take about a week to arrive.

        I have never had any problems with customs.

      • scrimshaw on 09/08/2015 - 23:53

        http://www.iherb.com/Natrol-Melatonin-3-mg-240-Tablets/4299
        Order Total
        Subtotal
        $22.36
        Shipping
        $4.00

      • 17731773 on 11/08/2015 - 07:07

        I've been using the iherb ones (in an orange bottle) works a treat for me. Good luck, sleep issues suck.

    • jackofspade on 10/08/2015 - 23:08

      From iherb.com

      •Supplements containing egg yolks, dairy, MSM, DHEA, Melatonin, bee pollen, bee pollen as a powder, banana, Hoodia, Camu Camu powder, and Cordyceps powder are not allowed to be imported into Australia.

      So does Customs allow it or not?

      • what on 10/08/2015 - 23:23
        +2

        I have ordered it twice from iherb and a friend has order it once from there too. We both got our orders.

        • BigTed on 11/08/2015 - 18:37
          +1

          I have ordered the 5mg ones from the States several times and never had a problem.

  • ProspectiveDarkness on 10/08/2015 - 00:31
    +4

    I'm curious, did you see a GP (or anyone) about your sleep?

    • scrimshaw on 10/08/2015 - 00:52
      +3

      I have seen a lot of GP's, they either attribute it to one of the following:

      • poor sleep hygiene (tried to fix this by limiting screen time, and also moving the computer / tablet out of my bedroom)
        Doesnt help much. I know, I'm still on Ozbargain and it's almost 1AM…

      • work stress (not this either as I'm not stressed by my job)

      • respiratory issues or Sleep apnea (pretty sure it isn't this)

      My self diagnosis however, would be that I have irregular sleep patterns which screws my body clock. I don't sleep the same time every night. I also tend to become anxious and actually worry about the lack of sleep as I lie in bed.

      • mmd on 10/08/2015 - 01:02

        My self diagnosis however, would be that I have irregular sleep patterns which screws my body clock. I don't sleep the same time every night

        Yes, I used to do shift work which totally stuffed up my sleep hygiene.
        Have you considered seeing a specialist?

      • rodinthink on 10/08/2015 - 14:08
        +1

        I went to GP before regarding exactly the same issue long time ago , only that I wasn't able to sleep for like 3 days straight almost 4 day (I was able to sleep for 1-2 hours only after 3 days). I was really Desperate to get some sleep at that time because it really annoy my personal and uni life & most importantly my working life. I was worried as well that I couldn't be able to sleep (also fear that I will be of negative-fear mind racing state-of-mind, fear of being fear), which make it even worst !!!! Try to be calm, release that anxiety. It's only after we lost everything that we're free & calm . Stop caring about work and other stuff. Tell your boss you need to get yourself together and take a break as much until you're "normal". If he's a good boss or have the same scenario with you, he will understand and let you take a break. If he wouldn't let you then perhaps politely quit your job (maybe punch yourself and blackmail him……… just kidding ;) ). Your personal healthy life is much more important than temporary payslip.

        Anyway back to the topic , The question the doctor ask me is very cliche: whether I was depressed or anxious. Have Low self-esteem .Stress at work. He tell me not to worry to much and just "rely and believe on my self". Not that helpful actually, his word is very vague for me. He think that I was typical depressed teenager on their adolescent period who depressed without any reason (Good welfare, no trouble at work, no personal problem with someone,etc)

        Even though the Dr. already give me a prescription for sleeping pills (Black-Red Blue Tuinal,Bright-Red Seconals & small curvy white stuff ,not sure if it's Zolpidem but I remember not to drink it before driving because it will cause intoxication , kinda like alcohol), the strong dosage still can't beat my negative racing-active-brain which run so busy like AMD cpu which use all of their 8 cores and 97% active.

        Maybe try to chew some valerian root & get some exercise. Sometimes if I can't sleep I just keep runnning until my mind is calm. Try something natural so that you can also get natural sleep, not relying on those chemical prescription (you can become junkie for that drug actually, it doesn't have to be cocaine or heroine). Marijuana arguably can help you to calm your mind, even though I wouldn't reccomend it because it's not 100% legal and quite expensive.
        This thing make me wonder , Can someone die from insomnia? Your organ start to be so confused and surprised because they never be really tired. Unorganized heart beat , waterry feces, dizzy when walk, can't think properly, short breath.

        PS:
        I +vote your comment. Why the neg? I don't get it why people neg you because you suffer. Those scumbag need a good shove up theirs.

      • ITveteran on 10/08/2015 - 15:29
        +1

        First of all I have my sympathy for you. I am a long history of sleeping problem and here are some of my experiences:

        1. stress can be subconscious, even though you think you are ok with your job;
        2. see different GPs to seek opinions. Different GPs have various experience/knowledge as well as attitude towards patients. I encountered a GP who simply told me "no solution" straight, however another one carefully provided me some opinions and including advising me to take a sleep apnoea test and it turned out that's part of the reason;
        3. try sleeping on sides if you are not. If this helps, then you are likely to have some respiratory issue;
        4. take sleeping pills as necessary. I had been restraining myself from using sleeping drugs for decades, due to people including GPs warning me of dependency on those drugs. Several years ago I just could not put up insomnia any more so I began to take it. That makes my life very different, I feel so much better and have not find any dependency so far. By the way, I found the sleeping drugs from local Pharmacies were useless, probably just placebo. I use something called Estazolam and that works like a treat. I got them from China.
        5. reading a book in bed actually can help falling asleep. It's said your gland secrets more melatonin when your eye feel tired.

        All the best.

      • Providence on 10/08/2015 - 22:04
        +3

        As others have said, screens are best avoided before bedtime.

        If you absolutely can't avoid it though, have a look at f.lux https://justgetflux.com/ for PC/Mac/Linux or Twighlight https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.urbandroid… for Android.

        Light at the blue end of the spectrum can interfere with natural melatonin production. These apps basically filter out the blue after the sun goes down.

        • Jackson on 11/08/2015 - 00:43

          I use bluelight filter for android, does the job and free

        • twinbag on 11/08/2015 - 10:59
          +1

          I've been using f.lux for over a year, I think it helps as I find myself nodding off while still on the laptop.

        • Providence on 12/08/2015 - 00:44

          @Jackson:

          There is a paid version of Twilight but the Free version linked to above works for me.

      • Agret on 12/08/2015 - 09:07

        Get fl.ux on your PC and Twilight on your phone & tablet (if android, I dunno if ios has a similar app)

    • IvankaRohann on 10/08/2015 - 11:57
      +4

      Unfortunately GP's are typically useless with sleep disorders. Most sleep specialists aren't much better.

      Ultimately it comes down to the things Scrimshaw mentions below; reduce your stress, stare at less screens, force yourself out of bed at the same time every day, get morning sun exposure, exercise more to wear yourself out.

      Even if you manage to do all those things and nothing changes. All they can offer are sleeping pills.

      • ProspectiveDarkness on 11/08/2015 - 16:26

        Unfortunately GP's are typically useless with sleep disorders.

        Yeah, that was actually my reason for asking, I'd figured as much.

      • wildweirdwacky on 11/08/2015 - 22:25

        I take exception to this comment.

        When people are constantly tired, or are not sleeping well, there are a million potential causes for this - ranging from blood cancers to thyroid problems to simple behavioural issues.

        The G.P.'s role is to ensure nothing more sinister is present.

        Obviously, behavioural issues identified (staring at screens, insufficient morning sunlight exposure) are far more common in sleepless patients than, say, blood cancers.

        Your G.P., however, will be assessing you from the moment his/her eyes are laid upon you, and stratifying your risk of other issues.

        Are you overweight? Do you have a misshapen jaw? If so, the G.P. will be much more suspicious of sleep apnoea and may order a sleep study.

        Have you been losing weight? If so, the G.P. will have a higher index of suspicion for various cancers, and may order relevant tests.

        The G.P., in 10 minutes or less, must decide whether to make you go to the effort of having tens of tests (time consuming and expensive for the government), or counsel you about the best way to get a good night's sleep and ask you to return if there are more problems - which, 90% of the time, will be enough (good sleep hygiene including less screen time after 9pm, regular sleeping hours, less stress etc.)

        If this is insufficient, you will probably return to the G.P., and ask for something else. Then, the G.P. may consider the annoying, expensive tests. Alternatively, a trial of a drug such as melatonin may be useful.

        Just so you know - melatonin is a hormone produced in the body. It has a role in sleep regulation. When levels are high, you will be sleepier. Melatonin production is suppressed by light entering your eyes - especially blue light. This is why staring at screens late at night is bad, but reading a book is good.

        Anyway, I hope I have made some decent points.
        (I'm nearly a doctor by the way)

        • scrimshaw on 11/08/2015 - 22:42

          Actually I know I have not been eating well recently. Having to move house and having no cooking equipment I ate out for nearly 4 months. After moving into my new home, I couldn't get a wink of sleep and had to use Zolpiden to get a decent nights rest.

          Not sure if diet plays a part but from a purely medical point of view are there specific nutrient groups that I'm lacking that could be causing me sleeplessness? Some doctors I visited suggested that I might have a high cortisol level and that certain foods might help.

        • mosquito on 12/08/2015 - 08:03

          @scrimshaw: You can find many, many articles online about cortisol increasing and reducing foods:
          http://www.poliquingroup.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Art…

          Just search if you are interested. The most common cortisol raising foods are anything factory-farm raised, and any processed food (ie. high sugar/take away).
          The lowering foods tend to have higher omega 3 to 6 ratios, so grass fed beef, seafood, various vegetables, some fruit.

          A good B vitamin and maybe some Zinc should help with cortisol levels.
          Meditation is also famous for lowering stress levels, I'm still learning the 3 minute/12 minute versions (even they can work for this).

          Sleep apnoea would be a medical possibility that is quite hard to detect as well. Worth testing if you find yourself waking up during the night, tired after a night's sleep (consistently), snoring or generally fatigued during the day.

          Finally, if your shift working then some level of tiredness will be normal from switching sleep hours, ideally you want a consistent sleep/wake time to establish a pattern of good sleep hygiene.

          Good luck

        • IvankaRohann on 18/08/2015 - 11:15

          I'm sorry if I offended you, but all the GP's I have experienced have not been anywhere near as thorough as you were in your comment.

          Finding a decent GP is hard. Mostly all they want to do is write a referral or a script.
          About the only time my regular one gets a bit serious is if he needs to subscribe something that they keep track of.

  • mmd on 10/08/2015 - 00:56

    Scrim, have you considered your sleep hygiene?
    Checkout this sleep hygiene article
    If some of these recommendations help you, you wont need pills and you'll save money…err to spend on ozbargain :).
    I moved my PC/TV from my bedroom to the studyroom, and it has worked wonders.

    • scrimshaw on 10/08/2015 - 00:57

      I have read about 6-7 sleep hygiene websites.

      My bedroom is now purely a bedroom, no PC's or laptops, no e-readers and no tablets. Still has bluetooth powered speaker to play some white noise or ambient sounds while I sleep though.

  • Findo on 10/08/2015 - 01:20

    Melatonin requires a script. I have ordered some from the chemist (most expensive), on iherb (they emailed me asking me for my script) and have had it bought over in luggage with my dad when he returned from the U.S. Iherb is by far the cheapest.

    I hope your sleeping problems get resolved. Insomnia is a pain in the ass :(

    • what on 10/08/2015 - 10:50
      +1

      I have never had to supply a script to iherb. I have a friend who also ordered it without needing a script. What dose where you ordering?

      • Findo on 10/08/2015 - 16:06

        5mg

        • what on 10/08/2015 - 16:55

          I have ordered 10mg without the need for a script. Perhaps you purchased when they were more strict. I have been purchasing mine through this year only.

        • BigTed on 11/08/2015 - 18:39

          @what:
          I have purchased 5mg several times over the last couple years from the USA through Ebay and never had a problem.

  • eatwell365 on 10/08/2015 - 05:49
    +3

    Exercise works 4 me.

    • scrimshaw on 10/08/2015 - 10:35
      +1

      I ride a pushbike to work and home, so I'm getting a decent amount of exercise. Not strenous though.

      • StewBalls on 10/08/2015 - 21:11
        +2

        Not strenuous enough.

        Fixed.

    • dealman on 10/08/2015 - 19:55
      +2

      @Scrimshaw,
      Forget Exercise, Try Sex, Works for me.

      Natural Melatonin after is also a bonus. http://www.livescience.com/32445-why-do-guys-get-sleepy-afte…

      • mousie on 10/08/2015 - 21:04
        +3

        Just knock one out before sleep :-) :-)

        • eatwell365 on 22/08/2015 - 06:35

          scrimshaw, need some good links for free video?

  • try2bhelpful on 10/08/2015 - 06:34
    +2

    To get to sleep I usually read a few pages from a book I've already read before. It stops my mind swirling through everything I've done during the day. If I read a book I haven't finished before I will just keep reading it through the night but if I've read it before I just stop when I get sleepy.

    If things do tend to swirl through your mind the other trick is you keep a pad and paper by the bed and when you think of something you jot it down; that way you know you will remember and get onto it in the morning.

    Best of luck with the quest for sleep and I hope you find something that allows you stop medicating.

  • [Deactivated] on 10/08/2015 - 06:54
    +1

    Have you tried Circadin 2mg? For 30 it is $32.

    • scrimshaw on 10/08/2015 - 10:36

      That's what I had I think. Yeah $32 is pricey, I just bought 440 for $35 :0

  • OverburdenedWarrior on 10/08/2015 - 07:41

    There's a place that I buy from nowadays, (Read about it on Ozbargain no less.) called Biovia. My last order seemed to get stuck somewhere for a while, coming from the US, but made it eventually. They have a few different types of Melatonin, so worth a look if you're after something specific.

  • BobD on 10/08/2015 - 08:06
    +1

    You could try a non chemical approach. It worked for me many years back. Have a look at this web site http://www.angelfire.com/co/serenitynsw/audiotapes.html . The only thing I find odd about it is they talk of audio tapes. I haven't seen a tape player for years. You could always enquire about the tapes. There is a contact phone.

    The one that worked for me is How to Relax : Explanations and a full relaxation session in the lying position
    I never got to the end of a session. I fell asleep.

    If you have any probs just PM me and I may be able help further.

    • [Deactivated] on 10/08/2015 - 09:56

      Or practise/learn about Mindfulness.

  • iridiumstem on 10/08/2015 - 10:01
    +2

    Hmmm, I've been in a same position as you are (had really messed up sleeping pattern, alternating between not sleeping at all or sleeping 3 hours or less, sleeping 15 hours straight next day repeat). I personally think chemical approach might just alleviate the symptom without touching upon the reason. Of course, without seeing how the sleeping problem manifests itself and everything, I cannot be too certain, but that was my case. Sleeping pills prescribed to me didn't work at all, talking to a counsellor helped.

    I suggest you to see a counsellor or someone like that, just to see their opinions on it. If it is related to anxiety or depression, they'd probably be able to help you. If not, well, it's worth a try, I think. My personal experience with GPs to have led me to believe that GPs have little knowledge in field of psychology, so I wouldn't rely on their opinions on depression, anxiety or any other psychology related symptoms too much.

  • Natt on 10/08/2015 - 10:56

    scrimshaw melatonin is OTC is the States. Which is why they are cheap to buy.

    As far as I know you can buy overseas, and have them sent here under "personal importation"-
    https://www.tga.gov.au/personal-importation-scheme

    Melatonin are not on the banned list, so it should be fine.

    the critical thing with melatonin imho is make sure you it's bedtime/no light in the room. Melatonin is a signal to your body it's time to sleep. It won't work if you are up and determined not to sleep :)

    I am a chronic insomniac, and even the "hard" sleeping drugs don't really work. One to the things I have found semi useful is to make a playlist of songs about an hour long. I play them when I know I will get to sleep. So on the nights when my brain is fighting me, playing the songs will relax me. Songs = Sleep

  • rain on 10/08/2015 - 11:55
    +6

    Just be careful OP, tolerance can build up quite fast and also cause deregulation of production within the body (it stops producing it) and you have to rely on external sources (e.g. the melatonin pills).
    I'm not 100% sure but 3mg+ should only be used in fixing the sleep schedule e.g. jet lag. 1-2mg for trying to get to sleep.
    Use it in moderation OP and do some more research

  • t_c on 10/08/2015 - 12:33
    +3

    A few pages of Benjamin Grahams 'Security Analysis' will put me into a coma like sleep without fail, and if you can manage more than a few pages at least you're putting the time to good use by bringing yourself one step closer to investment success.

  • majimaji on 10/08/2015 - 12:39

    Try some magnesium. You can take more than the recommended dose without issues. Magnesium helps relax muscles, and I find it really helps for me. I've heard some people finding it more effective than melatonin. A few others would be L-Theanine, GABA, 5-HTP (all can be had from iherb) which are really great for promoting relaxation and having a refreshing sleep. If you're interested, do a little research and maybe give one or two a shot? I used to have pretty bad sleep issues, and Magnesium/L-Theanine were my go-to's.

  • frogburger on 10/08/2015 - 13:09

    i used lef.org to get melatonin, shipping was the main cost, so its alot cheaper if you order like 4 or more i think

  • syousef on 10/08/2015 - 14:36

    Sleep is funny. I know that the advice being given is full of good intentions but what works for one person won't necessarily work for another.

    Qualified medical professionals would be ideal if the medical profession weren't so messed up. If you find a good GP hang on for dear life!

    I do think a sleep study would be worthwhile. Sleep apnea is just one condition. There are others that you might not know you have unless you're tested.

    My sleep specialist bulk bills and he's willing to listen to you if you have decent evidence and aren't talking hokum. I wouldn't have a job if I didn't have treatment for my sleep condition.

    • [Deactivated] on 10/08/2015 - 18:34

      My sleep specialist bulk bills and he's willing to listen to you if you have decent evidence and aren't talking hokum. I wouldn't have a job if I didn't have treatment for my sleep condition.

      May I ask what city/state you're in?

    • eatwell365 on 10/08/2015 - 18:56

      I want to know too. Hard to find low gap. Bulk bill is a rare gem.

  • twoface41face on 10/08/2015 - 15:02

    have you tried weed?

    • [Deactivated] on 10/08/2015 - 18:35
      +2

      Sleep now. Psychosis later.

      • mousie on 10/08/2015 - 22:09

        Statistically scrimshaw being above adolescent age will more likely develop a mild form of depression than psychosis by smoking weed now at the age of 20. This depression may resolve the insomnia issue as he will want to stay in bed for prolonged periods.

        He is also more likely statistically to develop psychosis by not being able to sleep.

        Valid question chai.

        • [Deactivated] on 11/08/2015 - 07:41
          +1

          This depression may resolve the insomnia issue as he will want to stay in bed for prolonged periods.

          We want to resolve the insomnia, not swap it for another horrible illness.

        • IvankaRohann on 11/08/2015 - 13:26
          +3

          Depression leads to further sleep problems. Wanting to stay in bed does not mean you will get any sleep. You just lie there feeling miserable.

          It does help keep you asleep, as you don't want to get up in the morning, knowing how bad you are going to feel once you are fully conscious.

          Psychosis is only the most severe side-effect. I used to work with a guy who smoked recreationally in his 20's - mostly to help him with insomnia - and eventually, like with all medications it stops working.

          He also has some mild brain damage in my opinion, as it took him a lot longer to learn new things and adjust to changes in patterns/routines. He was 33 and had only smoked for about 4-5 years.

  • Tech5 on 10/08/2015 - 15:25

    Have you tried Valerian root? It's meant to help with the anxiety of not sleeping. I had it a while ago and the herb sort of stops you from lying there thinking. Sort of gives you a calmer, emptier mind. Not addictive either.

  • Infraction on 10/08/2015 - 16:18
    +4

    Ask the Maester for some milk of the poppy

  • Clear on 10/08/2015 - 16:45

    I actually ordered some melatonin from iherb a few days ago by recommendation of my specialist. Ended up ordering a heap of 'organic' lollipops to make the express postage cheaper.

    • what on 10/08/2015 - 16:57

      Organic lollipops sound good. Just added them to my next order.

  • LurvinOZB on 10/08/2015 - 16:51

    Good luck.

  • slothhead on 10/08/2015 - 18:51
    +1

    I suffer from the same condition.

    Valium is the only solution that works for me. I take 5mg once or twice a week. It has serious addiction potential so you have to be careful with it.

    • Thaal Sinestro on 11/08/2015 - 03:20

      I don't understand why you are using valium since it has such a long half life. For pure insomnia (as opposed to generalized anxiety) short duration benzos such as serepax/oxazepam are preferable.

      It can be hard getting prescriptions for benzodiazepines these days though. Doctors have been brainwashed into believeing they are evil when they are are quite benign. Xanax is a controlled schedule-8 drug now (like dexamphetamine, anabolic steroids, oxycontin).

      • [Deactivated] on 11/08/2015 - 07:47
        +2

        There's good freaking reason Xanax is so tightly controlled. It's incredibly addictive with high abuse potential. Been there, done that. Never had an issue with temazepam or diazepam but alprazolam (Xanax) really was on another level. Got me into quite a lot of trouble and I know of others who have had the same experiences.

      • slothhead on 20/08/2015 - 08:13

        It does have a long half life but it doesn't seem to adversely effect me the next day. Any signs of drowsiness can be addressed with a coffee, if necessary.

        I have also tried Etizolam which has a shorter half-life and for this reason is probably the superior drug for sleep disorders (as you have suggested).

  • OzzyOzbourne on 10/08/2015 - 19:04

    Try biovea, very cheap

  • jeffr on 10/08/2015 - 19:21
    +1

    There are different formuations of Melatonin - I have bought many brands from eBay, iherb etc . All came from USA unopened - i.e. customs/quarantine didnt open the packages.

    When I had sleeping problems, I found that Melatonin didnt work. Even increasing the dosage didnt work. Nowadays I have no trouble sleeps - getting tired (or DOMS - delayed onset muscle soreness) from gym/running certainly helped.

    "Apparently" you should take it at least 1 hour before going to sleep and then prepare yourself to sleep i.e. warm shower, relaxing, reading a book etc.

  • [Deactivated] on 10/08/2015 - 20:50

    Why do people pop pills if they are preventing themselves from sleeping. You can't sleep cause you don't have the willpower to sleep at a similar time every night?

    • iridiumstem on 10/08/2015 - 21:00
      +8

      You sound almost like, "Why do people get depression, don't they have the willpower to be cheerful?"

      • [Deactivated] on 10/08/2015 - 21:11

        Unless you have a sleep disorder it's an easy fix. Usually if you have a sleep problem or depression or another illness, a root cause exists. Sometime medication can help in severe circumstances to get the ball rolling but it's doesn't usually solve the core issue at play.

        • iridiumstem on 10/08/2015 - 21:20
          +2

          There is a whole chapter dedicated to Sleep-Wake Disorders on DSM-5. Just saying.

          Definition on what constitutes as a "disorder" is not as clean cut as you think it is, there is all sort of different factors that contributes to it. Personal distress is certainly one of them. Just because you had something similar that you've been able to shrug off, doesn't mean that the similar logic applies. As I have implied, with your logic, people should be able to cheer themselves up when they have depression.

  • Gnostikos on 10/08/2015 - 21:08
    +3

    This will sound incredibly white paper-esque but your anxiety about not getting enough sleep and general over-analysis about your symptoms/possible diagnoses and hypochondriac-like worrying about there being a more sinister cause for all of this as well as the alleged detriment to your health creates a self-fulfilling prophecy of circular logic whereby you don't sleep because your every waking moment is spent wondering why you don't sleep and how to fix this.

    You fail to accept the fact that normal human beings will have periods of good and bad sleep and missing a day's sleep does not ruin your day nor biologically impair you to the point of incapacitation. Like most people you are believing your thoughts to an insanely assured degree on the basis of bullshit speculation and have convinced yourself that your experience is now definitively "wrong" and that you need help and medication to return to a "normal" state of being. That is a massive mental weakness that will really impede you growing into a healthier state of mind.

    Some people, like myself for instance, really don't handle running on little sleep too well and panic about it to the point of predicting other people's perceptions of me when I haven't slept and are therefore not myself; but I've behaviourally trained myself to not let the anxiety about the next night's sleep dominate my thoughts after a bad night's sleep, which is how my old self would usually kick off a cycle of incredibly insomniac nights because of incessant worrying and micro-management of my schedule to cater towards "guaranteeing" sleep time; which is a ridiculous premise when you step back and rationally analyse it.

    Take an honest look at yourself and ask whether you have anxiety of any kind (agoraphobia, social anxiety, performance anxiety, etc), panic disorder or panic attacks or are depressed.

    I say that because your train of thought and somewhat obsessive thought patterns strongly suggests an overly anxious mind.

    Those three generalised disorders make for miserable sleeping patterns. They are also all well within normal psychological variances of mental health states and it's important to not make incredible leaps of judgement from understanding that you can have those disorders.

    Generally, this all leads back to a lack of significant challenge, adversity and hardship in life, which forges mental acuity like nothing else. Once again, these things can't be summoned by pills and can't be trained into someone via books, so in saying that you may have anxiety or panic disorder, you are still light years from the point where you'd like to be.

    poor sleep hygiene (tried to fix this by limiting screen time, and also moving the computer / tablet out of my bedroom)
    Doesnt help much. I know, I'm still on Ozbargain and it's almost 1AM…

    work stress (not this either as I'm not stressed by my job)

    respiratory issues or Sleep apnea (pretty sure it isn't this)

    I think your denials and assurances that it's none of these things and that you're doing all the right things is simply lip service to the doctors.
    For one thing, being up at 1AM on the Internet is about as massive of a red herring as I can see that you are simply not doing anything substantial to improve yourself and are lying to yourself.

    I would say stress and anxiety are the most likely causes for poor sleep and from the many studies I used to read on the topic, they seemed to point in that direction 9 times out of 10.

    Those two are also probably the most difficult causes of adverse human health to actually rectify, so in saying that they could be causes, the chasm between you and resolution is absolutely enormous; if you haven't come to the stage of admitting to either you have an incredibly long way to go if indeed you are not dealing with stress or anxiety in your life.

    I can't beat a mule or force a horse to drink water but I will say, my old self was much the same as you describe and the only way things picked up for me is when I stopped being so self-entitled about everything having to go my way and stopped brooding over a bad night's sleep or other minor inconveniences in life and actually started experiencing the moments of time I inhabited; whether they were good or bad, I experienced the entirety of the spectrum.

    Detached mindfulness and meditation are two avenues of self-improvement I strongly urge you to explore.

    It really takes time, maturity and life experience to come to a better state of being, so what I'm describing here is a life-long process and certainly nothing that can guarantee better sleep now, which is what you seem to want but fail to understand that you are not guaranteed anything and arguing with life always results in defeat.

    I never resorted to sleeping medication or drugs of any kind even thought the temptation was incredibly strong and I had doctors prescribing me it as the adverse side-effects for virtually all of the major sleeping drugs are INSANE to put it mildly and I've seen the destructive effects of hypnotic/sedative/anxiolytic abuse first-hand in family members.

    • sandman28 on 11/08/2015 - 18:40
      +2

      Scrim, if you only read one post in this thread it should be Amar's. Hard questions need to be asked, Amar89 has summarised all that isn't communicated very well by us health professionals, largely due to not wanting to potentially sabotage a patient/health professional relationship by causing offence. Just because the questions are hard and/or confronting doesn't make them any less relevant or valuable in reaching a solution. If anything, exactly because they are the questions that aren't asked commonly they are even more relevant for patients that haven't had success with the easy/fast fixes or suggestions that many are quick to throw into the ring.

      It's going to be hard to find a solution you are happy with, this thread is full of great suggestions each with their own merit and likelihood of success. This includes the role of medication (the only thing I disagree with Amar on), it's has its place for some patients, and not for others. The important thing is finding the right mix of solutions to come to a position you are happy with.

      Remember from a bio-medical viewpoint, sleep - just like the action of breathing - is something that the body is fully capable of autonomous subconscious self-management. The body will always take as much, or as little, sleep as it needs to continue its function (ie life).

      Good luck :)

      • scrimshaw on 11/08/2015 - 20:33
        +2

        Amar does write quite confronting comments from time to time but his responses are well constructed and thought out. Which is why I'll take his words into consideration.

        I'm somewhat aware of the fact I'm fighting an uphill battle, you cannot cure insomnia by simply doping up and taking meds all the time. I may have to make some lifestyle changes, maybe have more exercise and learn how to relax.
        But it's precisely because I've been taking pretty addictive stuff and becoming dependant on it that I want to break away from taking zolpidem and from my research melatonin is also a much 'softer' option with little to no risk of becoming dependant on it.

        The melatonin is only a stop gap measure. I'm pretty sure I will not need it long term, but I simply bought it in bulk because it's cheaper to do so.

        • Gnostikos on 12/08/2015 - 19:21

          Certainly don't discount the power of the mind; it always seem convenient to do so when medication is instantly-gratifying but the mind's ability to will into existence psychosomatic dysfunction after a never-ending mental barrage of negativity and self-deprecation is very real and yet deceptively subtle to most of us given how we live on "auto-pilot" for 75% of our days. You keep telling yourself your sleep is messed up and you're a wreck and you will become a wreck. You don't need to be collapsing to the floor, gasping for air or crying yourself to sleep to be suffering from panic attacks or depression, respectively. Many people are carrying around very mundane and prevalent burdens like this for a lot of their lives and doing one of two things in response: A) writing it off as something else entirely (acid reflux, glucose intolerance, allergies, thyroid dysfunction, insomnia or whatever trendy ailment fads the health foods industry/pop psychology is on a crusade against) or B) dismissing even the possibility of having things like depression because that's gay/weak/for females/a cop-out/made-up-psychological-voodoo and so on.

          These episodes of transient insomnia/stress/lethargy/depression, where people seem to get stuck in a bad state of mind after a particularly stressful event and are unable to transition back to the preceding state, seem to happen to us 20-somethings quite a lot given we are in that transitional state of our lives where the comfort zone of adolescence gives way to an exponentially higher level of responsibility, accountability, expectations and social conformity and many are simply woefully prepared to deal with it (especially our generation), particularly if you go into a full-time job and move out, straight out of Uni. What worked for us as temporary distractions or alleviations during adolescent often is no longer relevant as you get older; yet that invulnerable sense of being too young to really have anything wrong with you still persists so entertaining the idea of having to change our entire way of life because it's so fundamentally flawed is laughed at.

          The way things like stress or depression affect individuals is a total crapshoot in terms of consistent diagnoses; one person could have certain dietary impulses as a result, whereas another could become suicidal, be aware that we're speaking in very broad terms when using these disorders as possible causes but they need to be eliminated as possible causes early on.

          For a young, relatively healthy and normal individual like yourself, to be losing that much sleep suggests you do have some massive underlying anxiety about something (whether it's the sleep itself or something else) or you're having flashbacks about grisly ambushes in the jungles of Vietnam; which seems like unlikely for you.

          Good luck to you, sincere self-improvement is worth the pay off but prepare to shatter what you thought you knew about yourself and your mind and do throttle the ego back a notch or two; that never hurts and that certainly helped me significantly.

  • mousie on 10/08/2015 - 21:59

    Go to support groups. Like AA, GA, cancer survivors. Ask for Tyler Durden

  • Maglia Nera on 10/08/2015 - 22:12

    FWIW I 'rotate' my arsenal of tabs to help with sleep especially as I do a bit of travelling for work.

    What works for me, and once I've finised one packet I'll move onto something different so my body doesn't get used to it

    1. ZMA - for this I like this one
    2. Magnesium - I've bought this last time and it was pretty good
    3. Melatonin - am currently using this
  • Jackson on 11/08/2015 - 01:16
    +2

    Hey mate, most of what I will say has probably been said but I will list some points, before that though, I don't believe people should mess around with medications for this type of thing unless it's a last resort.

    Firstly try to get to bed the same time each night, at least at first. Afterwards you can slack off a bit as long as you don't go off the rails.

    Secondly seeing as you are a modern man get a sleep tracker. Pebbles are great for this, but there are heaps. I use sleep as android with either my pebble or G Watch, but I actually had the first one ever invented over 10 years ago, and just that extra bit of data motivated me and gave me something to focus my attention on.

    When you wake up, do your best to get up within 5 minutes (your sleep tracker will help as it will wake you in your light sleep). I certainly awake open the curtains and make sure you get some sunlight.

    Exercise is a must, it needs to be sufficiently intense. You could bike slow or you could bike fast. Keep track of your time and try to get better each day to ensure you aren't being lazy.

    Apart from that there are things to avoid after a certain time, eg. Don't eat a big meal late, maybe eat bigger breakfast and lunch and just have a small dinner. No high sugar/fat/carbs/caffeine after 7pm or even earlier if possible. It sounds like you have the right idea in the bedroom but you aren't really sticking to it personally, it won't do you any good to limit your electronics use in bed if you end up staying in the lounge until 2am (see first point about getting to be at a regular time). I usually try to be in bed by a certain time and asleep for 8hrs.

    If u wake up at night and can't get back to sleep within 20-30 minutes, get up, do something for 20min may then go back to bed. Also when you are in bed you should not be too cold, but more often the issue is people are too hot. It's comfortable to be war. But it's not good for you (dandruff and dooner eye among other things). Even in winter you should be able to sleep with just a downer and light clothing on most of the east coast.

    A shag is always good but if you don't have a partner than Mrs Palmer is always handy. Meditation or techniques to relax can work also. It's a lot to remember I know, but this all worked for me. Yes sometimes you sleep better than other times, using a tracker will make you love aware of this, but generally your sleep should improve by being more mindful and aware of yourself. Lastly be honest with yourself.

    • Jackson on 11/08/2015 - 07:59
      +1

      Sorry mate, that was kinda long and as you can see from the time it was quite late. It's a bit presumptuous of me to think that you want to hear a deposition like that after asking a simple question about where to get melatonin. Also I know you're a smart bloke and you have been here a while, and you could have already tried all that stuff, however strangely I feel I am motivated by genuine concern for you. If your body stops creating melatonin then you might be on it for the rest of your life (you would know about this more than me though) and dependency on medications is never ideal.

      Hope you work something out.

  • Thaal Sinestro on 11/08/2015 - 03:26
    -1

    It is bad that genuine melatonin isn't available over the counter in Australia. Our nanny state doesn't deem the citizens intelligent enough to be able to self medicate.

    Melatonin only seems to work for some cases of insomnia. There are an enormous number of sedating drugs in the physician's armamentarium but most of them (like antipsychotics or tricyclic/tetracyclic antidepresssants) have long half lifes and thus will make you sleepy during the day as well. They generally have other unpleasant sideFX.

    My advice to people with sleeping problems, is to try melatonin first, and if it doesn't work get a prescription for zolpidem (Stillnox) or serapax (a benzodiazelpine with an 8 hour half life and very cheap since it is so old).

    • mosquito on 11/08/2015 - 07:43

      Anything that will reduce stress might help with insomnia. Melatonin is great for moving sleep patterns, if you are a shift worker of any kind or having issues sleeping than a few mg can assist with sleeping through the night.

      You can obtain melatonin on prescription from compounding pharmacies, it's approx 5-10X more expensive than imported melatonin from the US because it is pharmaceutical grade and must be refrigerated.

      iHerb is a very cheap place to import from and the melatonin hormone is considered very safe according to the research. There is currently no known level for overdosing on melatonin that would cause injury or death.

      Stillnox however does have some side-effects, along with most other drugs. You will need to experiment with that works for you, but short term use of melatonin is fine, just keep in mind that it's a hormone your replacing…

  • [Deactivated] on 11/08/2015 - 07:24
    +1

    What you eat/drink before for dinner can also contribute to the lack of sleep.

    You can also try Yoga for relaxing your mind.

  • TheMatrix on 11/08/2015 - 10:38

    I think you meant 3mg, not 3g in the tittle. Also be careful of fake ones if you buy from online source. In Australia, the TGA regulates the sale of pharmaceutical , no such regulatory oversight from online sources, esp oversea ones. Some pharmacies in Vic sell 3mgx100's for around $30.

  • aboabo on 11/08/2015 - 22:20

    1/2 banana is all I need. Can't remember a time I struggled to find sleep.

    http://www.progressivehealth.com/the-foods-that-help-you-sle…

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