Employer refusing to pay me unpaid hours from last Year

easternculture on 26/09/2016 - 10:29
Last edited 27/09/2016 - 06:52

Have a little issue with my government employer

I recently discovered that my employer has not paid me for hrs I worked last September . I raised the issue with my manager 3 months ago and this has been going on since then. My boss says that it's from last year so it's gone now . I have evidence I worked those days and it's also documented on our internal paperwork .

I raised the issue with upper management and got a request for a meeting which I declined and emailed back for response (in yes or no) if they are paying me.

Legally what are the next steps I should take. Should I send a letter of demand and then escalate this to my local court if I don't get a satisfactory response.

Any advise will be appreciated

Is really sad to see that a government agency will try and forfeit you pay

Thanks in advance

Education & Work

closed Comments

  • tomclancy on 26/09/2016 - 10:34
    +88

    Why did you decline the meeting? As an employer, if a staff member raised an issue to which I setup a meeting for discussion, then they decline the meeting I would be pretty pissed off. I would be reluctant to help after that.

    • Diji1 on 26/09/2016 - 10:41
      +4

      I'd decline it as well unless I was represented by someone. The power is clearly not on the OP side in the proposed meeting and the side with the power usually wins.

      • easternculture on 26/09/2016 - 10:50
        -49

        Meeting for this is just a waste of time . This can be resolved with a phone call but they are delaying it for no reason

        • tomclancy on 26/09/2016 - 11:29
          +66

          They organised a meeting, you declined it. Purely on the information you've presented it sounds like you delayed the process.

          I appreciate that there would be a lot more to the story which you may or may not be able to disclose. Without all the information I don't see how you can get an answer from OzB.

        • easternculture on 26/09/2016 - 11:37
          -1

          @PBG:

          I haven't disclosed any info. That's basically the story

          They don't want to reply in writing so I don't have any written evidence that they are refusing to pay me .

          And as previously mentioned , it's not good to go to a meeting without any representation for my end

        • tomclancy on 26/09/2016 - 11:48
          +58

          @easternculture: Representation? How hard is it for a few work colleagues to sit down and have a discussion like grown adults. Why do you need legal representation? You have an expectation that the result is going against you before you even walk in. If you have this attitude then even if you 'win' this battle you will still lose the war. How do you think your managers will treat you when doing your future appraisals?

          EC, I respect your amazing work here on OzB but thank goodness you don't work for me :)

        • StewBalls on 26/09/2016 - 11:49
          +27

          @easternculture: Personally, I would attend the meeting in good faith, but advise them (not ask for permission) that you will be bringing a support person.

          Make sure both of you take full minutes of the meeting, and record it (with full disclosure & consent) if allowed. It's OK to cover your arse, but at least give them the opportunity to air any grievances they might have appropriately.

          You need to show that you were willing to start facilitating the process, from a legal & professional perspective. PBG is absolutely right, this doesn't necessarily have to be too adversarial…

        • easternculture on 26/09/2016 - 12:07
          -89

          @PBG:

          I'm after advice and not a lecture lol

        • StewBalls on 26/09/2016 - 13:26
          +51

          @easternculture: Sometimes, what you want to hear isn't necessarily what you need to hear.

        • easternculture on 26/09/2016 - 13:29
          -4

          @StewBalls:

          Lol true.

          I've just after advice what I should do and respect everyone's input whether it is positive or negative . All the comments here have been helpful

        • tomclancy on 26/09/2016 - 14:13
          +5

          @easternculture:

          I'm after advice and not a lecture lol

          Haha, sorry :)

          I think StewBalls has given the best advice. Rearrange the meeting and take in a support person, like a neutral work colleague. Not 'representation'.

          If you show you are willing to participate they will reciprocate.

          Best of luck in sorting it out soon

        • Slippery Fish on 26/09/2016 - 20:14
          -6

          @easternculture: forget about it. You obviously did not miss the money as it took you 9 months to get off the crack and realise…

          While you may be entitled to the cash look at it from someone elses view what a pita to redo budgets to allow money you should have asked for earlier..

          Then when the ask for a meeting likely to discuss options to reduce effect to both parts you blow them off. Id tell you to never work over time again.

          Lol a attacking post enjoy.

          Ps. Id ask for my money too, just pointing out that they also have a side and are likely not the evil ogre you make out.

        • easternculture on 27/09/2016 - 07:51
          +4

          @blaccdong:

          Luckily we live in Australia and we have rights

          Next step is FWO and then Small Claims Court as I have enough evidence to prove I worked those hours

          Clearly they are in breach of (Section 545(5) Fair Work Act as WorkAround pointed out. Not sure if my manager would be penalised for breaching it.

          This opens another door to whether my organisation is doing this to other employees

          But now I know what I have to do.

        • alxr0101 on 27/09/2016 - 09:42

          @easternculture:

          Yes but do you work for FWO?!!

          Just sayin'.. Lol.

          And yes, that is the appropriate response if you cannot get satisfaction.

          Notify them in writing that is what you will do if not resolved in, say, 10 days.

        • AlexD on 27/09/2016 - 12:05
          +1

          Meetings like this aren't a waste of time. If it's anything like the department I work for, you would need to have a meeting as part of the process, with someone ranked higher than your direct manager.

          If my manager were refusing to pay me, it would be escalated to an SES band 1.

        • AlexD on 27/09/2016 - 12:10

          Meetings like this aren't a waste of time. If it's anything like the department I work for, you would need to have a meeting as part of the process, with someone ranked higher than your direct manager.

          If my manager were refusing to pay me, it would be escalated to an SES band 1. They don't have as much information about you as your manager (if they know you at all), so need to talk to determine whether there's a valid basis for your claim, and how to resolve it.

          In the government, no one is out to get you, and they want to sort out the issues you have through following the required processes.

        • goodcopbadcop on 27/09/2016 - 13:05

          @alxr0101: Govt Depts have their own EBA and there would be a clause within that about how additional hours are to be either paid or alternatively taken as Time Off in Lieu - TOIL. And then it is hour for hour and not as overtime. I've seen when a Dept's budget is smashed and they can't afford to pay anyone for additional hours worked in $'s - so the only option is TOIL. I've worked in Govt Depts where by the end of each month - additional hours can't be carried through to the next month and you have to manage your working time so that you don't accumulate hours and you have to take the time off during that month (or 4 week period). I've also seen Dept Heads not approve payment because the person assumed that they would just get paid and didn't ask anyone higher up and authorise it. So it may not be $'s in the hand if it hasn't been authorised. Otherwise everyone would do an extra 10 hours a week and expect $'s for it.

        • suicine94 on 27/09/2016 - 16:17
          +1

          @easternculture:

          Are you changing jobs? If you do this you will never get a promotion or a good reference to get a new job… your career ruined.

        • easternculture on 27/09/2016 - 16:52
          -1

          @suicine94:

          So I watch them do the wrong thing and I turn a blind eye just for a potential career development opportunity

          Are you serious mate ? Breaking the law is illegal and should be reported no matter what

        • PVA on 27/09/2016 - 17:58
          +2

          @blaccdong:
          that is completely wrong blacccdong

        • Serapis on 27/09/2016 - 18:23
          +2

          @blaccdong:

          It's work, not slave labour… you're in the wrong century here

        • kywst on 27/09/2016 - 19:20

          @easternculture: I don't know what state you're in so you'll have to do some leg work … but in some states it's completely legal to record a conversation that you are a participant in without needing to tell the other parties. I'd avoid FWO; tiger with corked teeth. In my office days I'd have called my HR contact and advised them of the payment error. They are used to dealing with this sort of crap and would probably just ask you to shoot through some evidence for them to set the wheels in motion. You're manager sounds like a arsehole but I've only heard part of your side of the story. Mind you, if you're a FT employee and this was last financial year and your contract has a clause pertaining to claiming overtime … you're probably sh!t outta luck unless they decide to do the right thing. Good luck and hope you get what you deserve; the money that is.

        • justinh93 on 28/09/2016 - 09:10
          +2

          @PBG:

          I am as exasperated as PBG. What kind of work are you doing that you can't have a conversation about it? It feels like you have chosen to polarise the situation unnnessecarily. Maybe they just wanted to apologise in person. I don't understand how you can succeed in a corporate environment with this type of attitude.

        • suicine94 on 28/09/2016 - 10:46

          @easternculture:

          Stuff like this isn't black and white. yea you could win a legal battle and get your 2k back… but at the end of the day if your managers don't like you, you not gona get promoted to get good references. that's just fact.

          it's not fair but it's life.

        • easternculture on 28/09/2016 - 10:49

          @suicine94:

          I have 2 jobs so who cares

          Reference from my second job is fine

        • suicine94 on 28/09/2016 - 10:50
          +1

          @easternculture:

          Ozbargain user's giving you references of all your good deals not gona cut it in an interview.

        • easternculture on 28/09/2016 - 11:14

          @suicine94:

          I'm sure Scotty with give me a good reference

        • ThadtheChad on 28/09/2016 - 11:26

          @blaccdong:

          they're the employer, you're an employee, you obey them

          Maybe in North Korea.

          In Australia, it is mutual. The employee looks after the employer's best interests and vica versa.

        • easternculture on 28/09/2016 - 11:29

          @suicine94:

          but at the end of the day if your managers don't like you, you not gona get promoted to get good references. that's just fact.

          I hope you realise that they are breaking the law and it's illegal and you not reporting it makes you an accessory

          I'll give you an example. You find out your boss is skimming money from the company account. You confront your boss and he offers you a promotion. Would you keep your mouth shut and take the promotion ?

        • ankor on 28/09/2016 - 12:30

          @easternculture:

          Yeah it depends on if the boss is an Ozbargainer

        • Unrvl on 28/09/2016 - 13:44

          @easternculture: small claims court are gonna throw you out on your ass for declining that meeting. done. end of story.

        • [Deactivated] on 28/09/2016 - 13:45
          -3

          Meeting for this is just a waste of time . This can be resolved with a phone call but they are delaying it for no reason

          Wow. This comment got 27 downvotes. Who knew there were so many corporate boot-lickers on OzB?

          You're owed, EC, if you don't fight for what is owed to you they'll take that as proof you are willing to be walked all over.

          Good luck.

        • easternculture on 28/09/2016 - 13:49

          @Juddy:

          Unfortunately there are a lot of people who are willing to turn a blind eye to wrong and illegal acts just for the potential of getting a promotion

          It's sad to know that people like this exist , and because of them slot of workplaces get away with things like this and it's the poor employees who end up suffering

          Unless this is reported , fair work has no idea what is going on in organisations and cannot change laws to not allow things like this to happen again

        • ThePunchingBag on 28/09/2016 - 14:02
          +1

          @easternculture: Hi EC, FWO or Small Claims won't be to impressed with you if you go to to them & haven't taken all avenues to rectify the situation with your employer.
          I understand, that yes you worked the hours, your manager has said "NO" it's gone, you escalated it to Upper Management, they tried to organise a meeting with you.
          What I don't understand is why you declined the meeting ?
          You need to take each & every step with them even if they are trying to get out of paying you.
          You need to hear what they have to say. Then you need to respond. If no joy from there ? Then take it further.
          I personally would try to arrange that meeting again, as others have said, take someone independent, take minutes of the meeting.
          Hope it works out for. You worked the hours. You deserve to be paid !!!

        • johnno07 on 28/09/2016 - 16:03
          +15

          @easternculture: Wants to be paid - refuses to meet with management about being paid. Wants advice - refuses to listen to advice.

          I'm seeing a pattern here.

        • easternculture on 28/09/2016 - 17:10

          @johnno07:

          I want reasonable advice . I don't want advices telling me to forget about it because I won't get a promotion or might get sacked

          I want to do the right thing and what's fair to all employees

        • arcticmonkey on 28/09/2016 - 18:56

          Maybe so in 'eastern culture' but what they have proposed totally makes sense.

        • easternculture on 28/09/2016 - 19:13
          -3

          @arcticmonkey:

          Maybe I should reiterate that I'm not interested in advancing in the organisation I'm working in . If I did , I would have been a manager years ago by kissing ass.

          If they want to try and sack me , they are welcome but they won't find any dirt on me as I'm professional at work

          In the case I get sacked I have a few jobs lined up that pay considerably more than what I earn here . 2 of those organisations have been trying to get me onboard for a few months which I would probably end up a manager there. However I dislike the private sector and prefer the public due to better job security

        • equitygame on 28/09/2016 - 21:08

          @easternculture: Turning down a meeting doesn't help you out. Even taking in a neutral person is going to make you look really unprofessional, and is likely to terminate their career as well, depending on how you both behave in there. I don't know where OzB gets their advice from, sure as hell aren't paying for it…

        • arcticmonkey on 28/09/2016 - 23:02
          +1

          @easternculture:

          What field/type of job do you work in?

        • jc8 on 28/09/2016 - 23:05

          @easternculture:
          He is giving you very good advice. You're effectively ruining your relationships and future prospects over a few thousand, which you would have received or resolved if you took the meeting. You're not managing the situation or the relationship with your employer.

        • nikey2k27 on 29/09/2016 - 08:13

          @easternculture: present your case to boss see they might pay you after that meeting.

    • [Deactivated] on 29/09/2016 - 12:37

      Follow the dispute resolution process within your EBA/contract terms

  • Diji1 on 26/09/2016 - 10:39

    I'd go and see whether there's any gubmint agency that can assist you for free and go to a lawyer if there isn't. Lawyer's first consultation should be free.

    Probably what's happened is a mistake or deliberate action and you didn't get paid and now it's a (profanity) for whomever it is to get your money out of the budgeted amount for this year (hence the claim that it's "gone" - ridiculous but it makes sense if you want to avoid work).

    • easternculture on 26/09/2016 - 10:49
      +2

      Pay office are happy to pay me. I have already spoken to them and they want a pay adjustment but my manager is refusing to sign it.

      • onetwothreefour on 26/09/2016 - 11:52
        +6

        Why don't you meet with them, see if they are going to pay you or not. If not then think about getting advice.

      • kingmw on 26/09/2016 - 22:07

        Why would your manager not sign it off? As a government agency, I doubt they worry about money as much as the private sector and also your time is recorded as well so even harder for them to ignore it.

        • goodcopbadcop on 27/09/2016 - 13:10
          +4

          Don't assume that a Govt Agency has a bottomless bucket of money for payroll and payment for overtime or additional hours. Actually it is very difficult to receive $'s for additional hours because everything is budgeted for and Govt Agency's report their actual expenditure in parliament and it can be questioned. It is public money (our taxes) after all. Private Sector have additional money if the business is making a profit. It comes out of that bucket!

        • kingmw on 27/09/2016 - 14:05
          +1

          @goodcopbadcop: If that is the case, then usually public employees will get time-in-lieu for the overtime worked.

        • kima on 28/09/2016 - 11:41
          +1

          @goodcopbadcop: what has that got to do with the employee? he is entitled to pay for time he worked.

      • ozeebee on 27/09/2016 - 00:25
        +5

        Perhaps your manager noticed your overtime was spent browsing and posting deals in this website =P

        Just kidding, I have nothing to add to what's been said here.

  • denuto on 26/09/2016 - 10:46

    Do you have an employment contract/agreement? Do you belong to a union? If no to both, you are going to be s**t out of luck, I reckon.

    • easternculture on 26/09/2016 - 10:50

      I'm under a award .

      • Kangal on 26/09/2016 - 13:41
        +1

        Can you tell us how much money we're talking about here?

        Is it $100 ?
        Maybe $300 ?
        Or even $900 ?

        • easternculture on 26/09/2016 - 14:19
          +3

          About 2K

        • gringo on 26/09/2016 - 22:34
          +1

          @easternculture:

          Being covered by an award means exactly jack these days. FWO will only act if you file a complaint - in which case things like your name become a matter of public record in any judgement and could end up in the media. Is that worth $2K?

          And the purpose of a meeting is most likely to:

          1) Offer you a settlement without them having to admit fault or pay penalties.
          2) Record the meeting to catch you out in case you file something with the FWO.

          If you attend, perhaps ask for their offer in writing and say you will consider it - then leave ASAP.

          Either way, be prepared to suddenly become unemployed regardless, for one reason or another. Especially if you are casual.

        • Serapis on 27/09/2016 - 17:43

          @gringo:

          Award + government employee suggests he was employed by state government, which in most cases is outside the Jurisdiction of FWO and fair work act.

          Would suggest he talk to State IR more likely

          • your info is wrong as FWO do not make judgements, they are not a court of law. Would only be public record if OP took said agency to court.

          SAUCE: Employment law

        • gringo on 28/09/2016 - 00:24

          @Serapis:

          Not necessarily if it's labour hire/some sort of technical outsourcing. The relevant award specifies to whom it applies anyway.

          Have a look at the enforceable undertakings issued by the FWO. They are public and quite detailed about the situation, names etc. I suppose you can ask for privacy - but probably pretty easy to join the dots regardless. The media report on these readily as is usually an outrageous situation when it gets this far (e.g 7-11 workers).

          For future employment questions like "have you ever filed a complaint with the FWO" you will have to say yes to. Good chance your resume is going in the bin.

          You also have to pay $50 or so to file a complaint (often refundable).

        • Serapis on 28/09/2016 - 22:27

          @gringo:

          I'm very familiar with this area of law, your information is incorrect… everything I'm saying is public information.

          Jurisdiction:

          I don't mean labour hire (it seems like he's employed directly by a department anyway.) States tend to operate under their own state awards for their own employees, which are not within the jurisdiction of the Fair Work Act 2009 (depts like Fair Trading, state department of business, state police, etc) whereas federal government employees are under Enterprise agreements (depts like AFP, Human services, immigration, etc). This is due to separation of powers in the Australian Constitution.

          Take NSW state government employees for example, they are under NSW awards, which operate under state law. The Fair Work Act 2009 does not apply at all (with the exception of notice periods and parental leave.)

          The exception to this rule is generally Victoria, who referred their IR powers to Federal govt and have their own Victorian public service EBA.

          Litigation and EUs:

          Enforceable undertakings from FWO only occur when they deem it necessary. Usually this is part of the process before they reach litigation against a company. It is all outlined in their Compliance and enforcement policy / Guidance notes, which can be found here.

          Provided you get over the jurisdictional issue, very unlikely to get it to an EU as OP is one person whereas if you look at prior EUs it is normally with multiple complainants with many serious allegations. Furthermore as it is something that leads to litigation, unlikely as a matter in litigation would be quite literally Crown v Crown (Federal Govt litigating against itself, with taxpayers to bear the bill) hence not in public interest (again read their FWO Guidance note 1).

          Privacy:

          All government agencies are subject to the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth) and cannot release your information to unauthorized 3rd parties unless you have allowed this.

          There is no legal obligation to answer a question like "have you ever filed a complaint with the FWO" truthfully to a prospective employer and they have no right to ask anyway.

          Also a company's HR would have to be utterly incompetent if they ever considered asking this as this would open them to a potential breach of General Protections (s340 - Fair Work Act 2009) if they did not get the job. An applicant can sue / chase penalties if they can show that the company did not hire them due to the fact that they answered 'yes' to that question.
          - s340 states: A person must not take adverse action against another person because the other person has, or has not, exercised a workplace right.
          - s341 states: A person has a workplace right if the person is able to make a complaint or inquiry to a person or body having the capacity under a workplace law to seek compliance with that law or a workplace instrument
          - s342 states: Adverse action is taken by a prospective employer against a prospective employee if the prospective employer refuses to employ the prospective employee

          A company found in breach of this could be up for penalties and compensation from court. Take Woolworths for example, over asking inappropriate questions like someone's age on a job application.

          Application Fees:

          Complaints to Fair Work Ombudsman are free.
          Complaints to Fair Work Commission attract an application fee.

          Just my 2c.

        • gringo on 28/09/2016 - 22:49

          @Serapis:

          Jurisdiction: Everything you need to know about coverage is in the relevant award. That is the best way to find out if it includes you.

          Litigation: Nothing you say here is contrary to what I have said. It could easily be the case that your case turns out to be a systemic breach and the employer disputes it, leading to an EU. You then get to be named publicly for a $2K reward.. yay.

          Privacy: What actually happens is something different entirely. They could word it very craftily indeed.

        • Serapis on 28/09/2016 - 22:56

          @gringo: Dude I'm literally facepalming right now, not here to start a fight with you but would recommend you check your facts.

        • gringo on 28/09/2016 - 23:03

          @Serapis:

          OK well facepalm all you like. Real world works differently (actual real world experience of a similar situation - non govt tho). Complaint = sudden loss of work through shifty means.

          Personally I'd be very cautious before filing any sort of formal complaint over a $2K underpayment (unless you are a fruit picker, etc). If you would do differently you are a brave person.

  • StewBalls on 26/09/2016 - 11:18
    +13

    Just playing devil's advocate here, but do you think the inordinate amount of time you clearly spend on OzB related activities (in fairness, frequently to our benefit) is impacting on your professional life??? This time may have been noted by your employer…

    If after a step back & objective appraisal you still think you're hard done by, I'd contact: https://www.fairwork.gov.au/ for further advice/action.

    • aussieprepper on 27/09/2016 - 10:30

      All of his post are done on breaks!

      Whats your point?

  • chumlee on 26/09/2016 - 11:45
    -2

    12 months later you notice? Are we talking a few hundred bucks or more?

    • easternculture on 26/09/2016 - 12:06

      A few thousand

      • onetwothreefour on 26/09/2016 - 12:30
        +6

        I check my pay every month even though it's always the same, there's no way it would take me 9 months to realise I was under paid a few thousand dollars. Somethings not right here.

        • StewBalls on 26/09/2016 - 12:38
          +7

          Yes, I'm beginning to suspect there's a bit more to this story than we're being told here…

        • easternculture on 26/09/2016 - 13:30
          -8

          @StewBalls:

          I can't go into the specifics. Maybe my boss is on Ozbargain lol

        • Kangal on 26/09/2016 - 13:50
          +16

          @easternculture:
          Damn, I thought he wouldn't think of that.

          The reason I underpaid you is because you spend all your work time on OzBargain!!

        • StewBalls on 26/09/2016 - 14:13
          +6

          @Kangal: Well, that's not outside the realms of possibility…my suspicious nature would incline me to think that the purpose of the meeting; in addition to potentially discussing the OT oversight; might also be to concurrently (either rightly or vexatiously) raise a performance management issue.

          The CEO of one of my former employers once asked me to attend head office under the auspices of something really trivial…turns out they were on a fishing expedition & he made the mistake of accusing me of some nonsensical transgression. After I demanded the attendance of a colleague who comprehensively refuted the allegations, I then gave him a royal serve over accusing staff of indiscretions, and pointed out the systemic issues within the organisation that caused the breakdown in the first place. It ended up being pretty funny, Mr Big Man sitting there with his head down crapping himself whilst a fairly junior staff member berates him for being a douche…

          I've learned the hard way that it's OK to be fair dinkum with your employer, but don't ever leave your arse uncovered.

        • Kangal on 26/09/2016 - 17:29
          +2

          @StewBalls:
          Believe it or not, I'm undergoing a similar case.
          I can't go into details either, but when things are sorted I will keep you upto date.

        • StewBalls on 26/09/2016 - 19:27
          +6

          @Kangal: Sadly, as WorkAround said, it's an all too common story. I hope it goes well for you.

          The one bit of advice I would (and do) give to anybody with significant workplace issues is that when the environment gets too toxic, just leave…for your own mental health. I've seen people battle horrendous bullying purely on principle, and although on paper it is the "right" thing to do, IME it never ends well.

          There's no point staying if they don't want you there, and if ultimately chances are you don't want to be there either, just vote with your feet…it might seem daunting, but there's always something better just around the corner!

        • jeka1103 on 26/09/2016 - 20:29
          +2

          I realised about 3 months ago that I was being underpaid every month for a year and 2 months. My payslip was the same for that year and 2 months, so why would I think anything was wrong? It wasn't until we got notification of a raise that I did some calculations and realised I had been paid wrong.

        • CandyMan on 26/09/2016 - 20:48
          +1

          @StewBalls:

          might also be to concurrently (either rightly or vexatiously) raise a performance management issue.

          If he worked he should get paid. If pay was based on performance politicians would work for free

        • StewBalls on 27/09/2016 - 00:29

          @CandyMan: As noted ad nauseam, there's more to this case than is being disclosed here…it's not always as simple as hours worked = hours paid in these cases.

          To make a fair assessment about whether any underpayment has occurred, what precisely is owed, & how much is owing, there's a lot more variables to consider than just one person's anonymous assertion within the framework of the Constitution of OzB…legally binding as it may be on here! ;)

        • easternculture on 27/09/2016 - 00:38
          +3

          @StewBalls:

          it's not always as simple as hours worked = hours paid in these cases.

          Yes it is. Just my manager being stubborn. Pay office is aware and waiting for paperwork. Manager refusing to submit paperwork. HR doesn't want to get involved. Upper management taking side of my manager.

          Just the usual work politics and stubbornness of middle managers who think they own and run the business

        • StewBalls on 27/09/2016 - 00:40
          +2

          @easternculture: Again, don't be offended but we only have your word for any of this…I'm sure your manager would say the same of you…who are we to trust? IME there's two sides to every story, that's why we must have alternative dispute resolution processes…

        • Skinnerr on 27/09/2016 - 01:36

          @StewBalls: Yep. If he had a stronger case he'd go straight to fairwork, not ozb.

        • CandyMan on 27/09/2016 - 08:54
          -1

          @StewBalls:
          Are you EC's boss. Im getting suspicious lol

        • alxr0101 on 27/09/2016 - 09:49
          +2

          @StewBalls:

          Op sought advice based on the facts he or she presented to us. We should respond based on that and not presume otherwise.

        • [Deactivated] on 27/09/2016 - 12:42

          I probably would not ever notice that I had been under payed

        • onetwothreefour on 27/09/2016 - 13:00

          @mnermner: don't you check your wages every month?

        • [Deactivated] on 30/09/2016 - 10:19

          @onetwothree: no I don't, and I lose my pay slips. And I would have no idea about what entitlements I'm actually meant to be getting. In my experience, bosses don't like when you ask that sort if stuff (and as it turned out, my last boss was underpaying all of the staff)

        • [Deactivated] on 30/09/2016 - 10:20

          @mnermner: I really am too trusting

        • onetwothreefour on 30/09/2016 - 10:34

          @mnermner:sounds like it.

  • cloudy on 26/09/2016 - 12:40
    +3

    Why has it taken u a year to raise this? This is what I'm wondering, and why is it suddenly something you started to pursue? Ie, we're u bored at work and decided to reconcile a years worth of pay and time log? Or what's the catalyst? I think these are all sage questions I would ask if I was your manager.

    Lastly, just from someone who worked in a govt agency myself, if you want to move up, you should try not to be seen as causing headaches, asking for OT pay a year afterwards is a headache. If u knew u were doing OT you should clearly have it on email for the hours and duties performed.

    I personally have given up many hours of travel time that I have entitlement for, but heavy workload dicatated I couldn't take off, stuff like that generally does not go unnoticed and I've found it has helped with promotions, or other recognition (ie, very glowing referee reports when applying for other jobs).

    I might add a apology since I had not answered your question and just provided an opinion, but I thought it may help you out.

    • easternculture on 26/09/2016 - 13:33
      +3

      Thanks for that. I appreciate your opinion .

      I have no intention of advancing in the organisation I work in. Hopefully if everything goes as planned , I'll be able to retire in 4 - 6 years time and work in an occupation I have passion for rather than run after the dollars

      • Slippery Fish on 26/09/2016 - 20:22
        +2

        In that case can I have your job? Your month overtime is almost my months pay o.O what do you do.

        • StewBalls on 27/09/2016 - 00:38

          Yeah, I'd have to admit it's not exactly a stellar attitude for an employee…conversely, I like your can-do attitude. :)

      • Jackson on 26/09/2016 - 23:50
        -1

        seems a bit harsh to be down voted for this comment

    • CandyMan on 26/09/2016 - 20:50
      +2

      Workers shouldnt be expected to forgo their time or pay. You are entitled to time in lieu if you work for the govt

      • cloudy on 26/09/2016 - 22:42

        When I worked for the APS, I saw how good my conditions pay and job was compared to most of my friends and others I knew. And even though I'm entitled to every cent, I am happy to step the extra mile to get the job done.

        I think in the end the extra mile doesn't go unnoticed and helps with career advancement and career content.

        I saw a lot of people who were happy to play the game of squeezing every entitlement, tea breaks, sickies, etc, and they are discontent with their job and always complain about being over looked for promotions. I do however recognise it can be a chicken and the egg problem though.

        • CandyMan on 27/09/2016 - 08:59
          +2

          Thats your personal choice. But if others choose money/entitlements over career advancement that should also be fine.
          I see many people going the extra mile and not asking for entitlements only to be the first to be sacrafised when they have a health problem or when something goes wrong.

        • easternculture on 27/09/2016 - 09:11
          +5

          @CandyMan:

          I agree with CM, everyone is dispensable and replaceable in the workforce. It doesn't matter how good and obedient you are. There is a lot of politics in the government workforce and unfortunately nothing can be done about because they are smart about it.

          Personally I refuse to bow down and get ripped off for a potential possibility in getting a promotion. I would only accept a promotion if I earned it fair and square.

        • ThadtheChad on 28/09/2016 - 11:39

          @CandyMan:

          IMHO, it also sets expectations for the rest of the team to "go the extra mile". Taken to extreme lengths, it turns into a nightmare of people working longer hours, passing up TOIL and other asinine tricks of "one-upmanship".

          Common practice in the Big 4 consulting firms.

  • MercSal on 26/09/2016 - 12:58
    +3

    If you are prepared to pay some amount of back dues, your union can provide expert advice and representation.

    I'd guess if it's happened once, it's likely to have happened before to others.

  • WorkAround on 26/09/2016 - 13:40
    +40

    You have a 6 year limitation period to pursue an underpayments claim (Section 545(5) Fair Work Act).

    I would re-check your calculations, lay it out in a spreadsheet and email it to upper management. State that you declined the first offer of a meeting as you wanted to be doubly sure that an underpayment has occurred, of which you are sure of now. Present the spreadsheet and let them know they can get in touch via email if they have any concerns or questions about the calculations, or wish to setup a meeting to further discuss the issue.

    Take a meeting with upper management but don't expect them to bend over and be nice to you. In regards to taking notes/minutes in the meeting - certainly do that. But if you have suspicions that upper management will try to screw you, you are able to record audio of a conversation to which you are a party to protect your lawful interests (section 7(3)(b)(i) Surveillance Devices Act. That would mean setting up your phone to record with the mic positioned upwards in your pocket etc. There is no obligation to inform the other party as long as you are aware that the recording is happening and consent to it.

    Before you go charging in like a wounded bull though, I'd be sure I have time sheets to establish the overtime that was worked and pay slips to represent the underpayment. Otherwise it turns very quickly into a he said, she said argument which could sour your employment relationship very quickly. The clearer that you lay out your evidence to support an underpayments claim, the easier it becomes for upper management to recognise the issue and rectify it. So this means copies of pay slips and time slips with proper references against the alleged underpayment.

    If your employer takes any adverse action against you for making an enquiry related to a possible underpayment (and continuing to press the issue) then you might want to look into a General Protections Application. This might involve them suddenly cutting your shifts which you have been working regularly and consistently, cancelling training that you've previously been entitled to etc.

    Again, just to reiterate - the hardest part in pursuing an underpayments claim is having the evidence to prove that one exists. Unless you have a very honest and trustworthy employer, don't expect them to take your word on face value that you've actually worked overtime and not been paid for it.

    Best of luck.

    Edit: You may also need to consider any tax implications that you may have to rectify if your employer does rectify the underpayment.

    • StewBalls on 26/09/2016 - 13:48
      +24

      I just found the support person I'm taking to all future meetings with senior management! ;)

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