Investment Property: Tenant or Landlord's Responsibility?

blingerz on 06/01/2017 - 19:07
Last edited 06/01/2017 - 19:29

Hello all,

Same tenant and REA company as my previous post (different REA though): https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/233644

I have two problems that are in need of advice today!

First issue, I received an email from my REA today saying that the tenants were complaining that the flush in the common toilet and the range hood in the kitchen was not working and seeking permission to call a plumber. Learning from my previous post, I decided to stop by the house after work to check it out.

Upon arriving, I noticed that the house was filthy. The range hood was covered in a thick, slimey layer of grease and would not turn on. It had obviously not been cleaned for months. The oven and dishwasher was in the same state - covered in grease and residue but luckily were still working.

The common toilet was in a better state but upon popping the hood, I could see that it had not been cleaned for some time. I fiddled with the lever inside and could see that everything was working fine if pressure was applied and if some heavy duty cleaning spray was applied to it.

I asked the tenants when this had become an issue. They said that they had just come back from a three week holiday and noticed it wasn't working. Everything had been working fine before this. I promptly took some photos and left.

This is my first property/ investment property and I saved throughout uni to buy it. Seeing the state that it was in left me furious. At the same time, the tenants are insisting that someone come to fix the toilet immediately. In the meantime, they are using the toilet in the master bedroom. Whose responsibility is it to pay for this?

TL:DR: tenants complained toilet and range hood was not working. Upon inspection, they were left in a less desirable state and could be resolved with some cleaning.

Second issue, 60 days prior to this, the REA had approached the tenants asking if they would like to renew their 12 month contract. They stated that they would like to revert to a month to month agreement after their contract was up. I agreed on the condition that there would be a $10 weekly increase in rent if we revert to a month to month contract. REA notified them in a call. 60 days later (today), I asked the REA when the price increase would come into effect. She checked her files and realised she had not informed the tenant in writing of the increase so would immediately write to inform them now. The rate increase would come into effect 60 days from now.

I understand that the amount lost is fairly trivial - amounting to roughly $85, but this REA company has again dropped the ball. Is it reasonable to expect them to cover this loss?

TL:DR: REA forgot to inform tenants of rental increase in writing resulting in ~$85 loss in rental income. Is it reasonable to expect REA to cover this loss?

Home & Garden

Comments

  • Sinful on 06/01/2017 - 19:24
    +3

    You for the toilet, it is a legal requirement to have a working toilet and there is no intentional damage from what you say.

    REA for the $10.
    Do you have that written, emailed or SMS'd to them? (Physical proof)

    As long as the property is not difficult to re-lease, Personally, I would give them the 2 or 4 weeks notice needed and do a post rental inspection with the agent (make sure you are there!) discuss with the REA to make sure that they place is spotless, so you can use their bond money and aren't out of pocket at the end.

    • blingerz on 06/01/2017 - 21:18

      Unfortunately, I don't have any physical proof. It was a conversation over the phone :(

      How about the range hood?

      • Sinful on 08/01/2017 - 20:17

        From what you say, the rangehood is just really dirty.
        As long as it is clean when they leave (make sure you inspect it thoroughly at the inspection when they leave) and there is no physical damage, then there is nothing you can really do.

        You should talk to your REA and ask for an inspection (usually 3-4 weeks notice is given). You can then inspect the property fully and file complaints and possibly take action on any damages.
        Better to do it formally this way, so if you do end up at the tribunal, you have a leg to stand on.

        Good luck, I feel bad too when people damage my property.

        Edit take photo's at the inspection so you have proof.

  • BensonP on 06/01/2017 - 19:43
    +1

    My main concern, as a former renter, is your decision to 'stop by the house after work to check it out'.

    It's a grey area, as you were going to fix an issue, but now are making assumptions based on an inspection. In Victoria, you must give 24 hours written notice before you can enter the premises to inspect.

    As for the toilet, definitely your problem.

    • blingerz on 06/01/2017 - 19:54

      Sorry, I didn't elaborate as I didn't think it would matter.

      I asked the REA if I could come to have a look on Wednesday next week. She called them to see and they asked if I could come by sooner - today instead. I agreed.

      The toilet will work as soon as someone cleans the pump. They just have shown no initiative whatsoever and have probably not cleaned it at all since they moved in. If I call a plumber, I assume he would choose to replace the toilet rather than clean it as that is more profitable for him.

      • spacemansam on 06/01/2017 - 19:59
        +1

        Are you sure the toilet flushing issue is purely an issue related to it not being cleaned? How do you know there isn't something else going on? (Unless you're a plumber of course)

        • blingerz on 06/01/2017 - 20:04
          +1

          The flush is stuck. When I took the hood off and applied some pressure, it worked again. However, with the hood on, it needs significantly more pressure. There's dirt and residue built up inside and needs a clean and some WD-40. I'm a mechanical engineer.

        • spacemansam on 06/01/2017 - 20:26
          +2

          @blingerz: Sounds like you know whats going on so it looks like you have a few options:

          • tell them to clean it and see what happens (although if they haven't done it already, they're probably not the type of people who can do it)
          • you fix it yourself (to save on the costs of the plumber)
          • get a plumber in

          Good luck!

        • blingerz on 06/01/2017 - 21:14

          @spaceangelz: TBH, I would've cleaned it for them. But when I told them that it just needed cleaning, his response was "Am I supposed to do that?". This really annoyed me. I'm their landlord, not their cleaner. I would've also thought that this is common decency. You rent and live in a home and clean it every once in awhile.

          Also, if I clean it for them, this would set a precedent. They'll be asking me to clean the bathroom and kitchen next. I want to resolve this in a way that would minimise my involvement in future.

        • Banana on 06/01/2017 - 23:13
          +1

          @blingerz:
          Just charge them your hourly rate :)

        • [Deactivated] on 07/01/2017 - 06:49
          +3

          @blingerz:

          The tenant should not need to take the top off the toilet to investigate flushing issues. If it's not flushing properly then you need to fix it, or get it fixed. As a landlord I generally wouldn't want tenants trying to fix issues themselves, many people are not capable, and will do more damage than good.

        • spacemansam on 07/01/2017 - 08:15

          @Gofast: very good point. If you have incompetent tenants this may result in the situation getting much worse!

        • billy3000 on 07/01/2017 - 19:55
          +5

          47 years of using toilets and I never heard of anyone having to take the top off and clean it

      • JIMB0 on 07/01/2017 - 12:59
        +1

        Why would the toilet cistern need cleaning? They only ever have clean water running through them, unless its on bore/dam water.

        • StewBalls on 07/01/2017 - 14:12

          Upper deckers maybe???

  • StewBalls on 06/01/2017 - 20:20
    +3

    I can't believe you haven't changed REAs…you're constantly inviting problems for yourself here by using one so inept.

    • tomsco on 06/01/2017 - 20:34

      Did say different agent within the company. And let's be fair, if he went to a different agency, do you think their agents would be significantly better?

      • StewBalls on 06/01/2017 - 20:36
        +4

        REA notified them in a call. 60 days later (today), I asked the REA when the price increase would come into effect. She checked her files and realised she had not informed the tenant in writing of the increase

        Could they be any worse…seriously? What is their management team doing?

        We've had two issue posts here that could have been avoided…time to bring somebody else off the bench.

    • blingerz on 06/01/2017 - 21:12
      +3

      Yeah, this is the third REA within the same company in under a year. They keep switching, I'm not sure why. I think it's time to switch companies.

      • pjcook on 07/01/2017 - 07:36

        The property Manager in a REA is usually the lowest rank on the totem pole, barely above the receptionist.

        • StewBalls on 07/01/2017 - 09:45

          The difference is that the PM should have completed a Certificate of Registration course & done some practicum/shadowing work at the very least though…they should have a bit of a clue.

          Plus, if the Admin staff suddenly started 'forgetting' to do stuff they had promised to do, particularly value work, they'd be gone quicksmart.

          This mob sounds like the rot has set in at the top TBH…

      • pandabun on 07/01/2017 - 11:03

        We have gone through a few REA over the last 10 years. Don't put up with bad service. There are good ones out there who do their duty properly. The first time we got into property, we did the same as you. We thought it was a norm (REA didn't do his job properly) so we stayed for 2 years.

      • pebee47 on 08/01/2017 - 15:24

        I'm trying to get this in order of magnitude here
        The Company is called (say) "X&Y Realty". They most often Sell property and Manage properties under lease or rental agreements, although might only do one of these. They are discrete operations.
        The Real Estate Agent (REA) is the person who holds the Licence for the business. Does not necessarily have a surname starting with either X or Y. It is hard to believe you have had 3 REA's in 12 months.
        (Real Estate Representatives ("RE Reps") are the people out here trying to sell your place or get you to buy a place. They don't have anything to do with Property Management)
        A Property Manager is a person paid by you via the Company to manage the property according to your Management Agreement.
        The Company want PM's to look after around 100 properties. In the eye of the Company, good PM's look after more, newbie or poor PM's look after less. As PM's get more proficient, they are often head-hunted by other Agencies offering slightly more pay, or the same pay for fewer properties to look after.
        The Landlord wants a different sort of "Good" PM. When a RE Company says "He/She is one of our best PM's they usually mean the PM handles a large number of properties and either does it very well OR is so bolshy the Landlords put up with poor service and don't complain.

  • ZippyRoo on 06/01/2017 - 21:35
    +2

    I've had various rental properties in the past, and still have one now. I can tell you that most tenants I've had didn't look after the house very well. The issue almost always start in the bathrooms or toilets as they're used a lot, but are always damp, with very little air circulation. If it was your own house, you would normally open the windows to let the steam out and take care when you press the flush. Tenants don't do that. I've had to fix broken ceiling heater, broken sink, broken door handle, repaint the bathroom ceiling because it was turning black from mould, and had to fix the toilet flush three times (same house, same tenants). So I share your pain, but just remember you're not alone, these issues are very common! Like you, I used to try to fix it myself, get my own plumber, I even asked my dad to fix things, but these days, I just use the real estate agent plumber. They're professional, prompt and contrary to what most believe, actually charges less fees because they have a relationship with the real estate agent.

    On one occasion, one tenant was complaining that the hot water system took ages to heat up. I had to get a plumber to provide his professional opinion that the system is still running in perfect condition and it doesn't need changing. He changed the water saving head to a normal one and no more complains from the tenants after (although they complained about a whole heap of other things later). Maybe you just need a plumber to tell them that they need to clean the toilet more often! Your real estate agent should also pickup the filthiness during the six months routine inspection though.

    In terms of the missed rental increase notification, there's not much you can do but since the contract has ended, you can actually choose a different agency now. You can use this to discuss new terms with the current agent and ask them what sort of better deals they can give you if you were to renew the lease with the tenants for another year. A reduction in management fees, reduced leasing fee, reletting fee, etc. To keep you, they'll most likely offer you something, but I agree with everyone else, changing your agent is probably a better option here. Good luck.

  • airzone on 07/01/2017 - 00:52

    Yuck… I don't understand how people can live in filth like that. A saturated range hood filter is likely to start to drip oil onto the hot plates.. More often than not, the filter panels can just go in the dishwasher.

  • tunzafun001 on 07/01/2017 - 02:06
    +9

    Poor RE management is becoming far too common lately. Don't beat yourself up about not having it in writing. I had an outgoing tenant who left literally p00 all over the toilet, bathroom mouldy (and he was the first to use the bathroom after a reno with new tiles/ vanity etc). Oven not cleaned, mouse p00 in the laundry cupboards, marks and a whole in the wall, 2 ft high weeds. Now my agent refused to claim against the bond, I have no idea why (I think they didn't follow the proper ingoing process as the only photos they produced were the photos I sent them for the initial add!). I have it from him in writing, a recorded phone conversation (with another real estate manager on a conference call to make sure the proper process had been followed) and acknowledgment from the Raine and Horne state manager. At the end of the day, they aren't accountable. I rang the tribunal to with hold the bond myself, but the agent wouldn't release the ingoing / outgoing inspections (assume not done) so I didn't have a leg to stand on. My only option is to take them to court, and best case scenario get a few hundred for paint, repairs, cleaning, landscaping and new turf. They know it's not worth it.

    From my 10 years experience, if I were you:

    1. Make sure you have landlords insurance and check the wait time/ excesses. I will explain later.

    2. After wait time, change agent. I have a fantastic relationship with my new agent. A good one can be found.

    3. Tell the new agent you want the tenant to clean all the electrical items to the state they were in on in-going inspection. If not, the lease will be terminated. I'm not sure how long they get to sort it, around 21 days I think. If they don't, follow though with it. Alternatively, offer them a cleaning plan. For example, $60 every 2 months (an extra $7 per week) for a cleaner to come around and clean those key items. Either way, get them sorted before they break down, as it will then become your issue.

    4. Follow through. If they haven't cleaned it up, move them on. Good tenants are out there. Now this is where step 1 comes in. Slob tenants who have to move are generally spiteful and they are going to make sure they do as much damage as they can on the way out. This is where the insurance comes in. I had 2 tenant for 6 months. One clocked up $2000 in damages, the second only lasted 6 weeks and Clocked up $8000 in damage. I was covered by Terry Sheer. However, I already used up a fair bit of cover (resets annually) on the 6 week earlier claim. Also, be careful each item/act attracts it's own excess. For example, they broke 3 doors. Each one attracted it's own excess of around $250 each. Therefore, the internal doors weren't worth claiming. In the end a claim of $8000, I got around $3000. Might be worth sharing this with the outgoing tenants as my 6 week idiot copped the full $8000 bill from Terry Sheer. Luckily I could do most of the work, so the $3000 covered materials, and I sourced decent items (such as a replacement oven etc) off gumtree and greys online. Alternatively, the loss would be tax deductible.

    5. Reward good tenants. I've now got a good one. He is a keen Gardner. Every now and then I drop off a gift card, chocolates etc (sourced from here of course). Chose a gift card that might result in the improvement of your house! He has since painted the external trims and put up a shade, so I bought him beer..win win spiral. They have made a few requests for repairs (leaking taps, cistern float, shower screen handle etc etc). I try my best to fix them in 48 hrs. While I was there I put a longer leaver tap on as it's easier for old hands, and checked/ replaced a heap of tap washers (saves a Sunday call out in the future).

    6. Name and shame your previous agent. As I said, Raine and Horne Whyalla are terrible. Don't let other suffer the same fate.

    Summary, check insurance, new tenants, new agent, reward the good.

  • Candour on 07/01/2017 - 07:24

    seek advice from the dept of fair trading on your problems - free

  • rigby75 on 07/01/2017 - 10:32

    If the toilet isn't flushing it wouldn't be from lack of cleaning. You need to get a plumber or tradie to repair the system.

  • [Deactivated] on 07/01/2017 - 11:27
    +1

    You should probably let your tenants know that the cleanliness level is not alright with you, and that it's causing the problems they are complaining about. Sounds like these tenants have no idea that that is what's happening, so they're going to keep on doing it. People have different levels of cleanliness, it's likely they don't even notice the grime that has built up since they see it every day.

    • StewBalls on 07/01/2017 - 14:10
      +1

      On one level you are right; however, herein lies the issue…this is not a discussion the OP should be having with the tenant, the REA is being specifically paid for this as part of their role, it's not an unreasonable expectation that the PM do the job they are being paid for.

      • [Deactivated] on 09/01/2017 - 22:11
        +1

        In my experience (as a tenant), don't expect anything from Real Estate Agents. I'm yet to meet one who can do their job with competence. If you expect to get a return on your investment, then don't just invest money. Invest time and energy. Meet them. Open up a dialogue with your tenants. They will see you as a person, feel respected, and respect you and your property. Doing everything through an REA actually reflects poorly on owners.

        • JIMB0 on 10/01/2017 - 14:14
          +1

          There are some good stand alone property management company's around that actually treat tenants and landlords with respect. The ones ran as a side business to a real estate agency are the worst, usually staffed by jaded middle aged women who couldn't care less.

        • [Deactivated] on 11/01/2017 - 11:20

          @JIMB0: that makes sense.do you have any names? I've been with private land lords for the last 5 years or so.

  • cassidy02 on 08/01/2017 - 13:33
    +1

    Maintenance issues - I would do a thorough clean once, make sure all is in working order and put the tenants on notice that if there's issues again due to non-cleaning, they will be bearing costs.

    Lack of rent increase - get the agent to credit your management fees for the amount you lost by them not sending the letter when you asked. Then switch agents after the credit has been used up, enough is enough.

  • pebee47 on 08/01/2017 - 14:45

    Welcome to the world of the landlord. I currently have the tenants from hell. In 12 months I have had to replace stove and oven, door locks, clothesline then 6 months later clothesline cord, pergola bearers (using pergola as a swing), fly screens (after I had installed new ones to the whole house), plus light fittings. None of these items were damaged/not working before they moved in as I had spent some weeks ensuring all was good with the property.
    Nowadays, my common response when the Property Manager first identifies herself on the phone is "Hi ——-, How much?"
    If these tenants are not keeping the property in reasonable order, either tell the Manager to chase them up or get a new one. Better still, kick out the crappy tenants and get some new ones. There IS some really good renters out there, you've just got to cycle through until you find them.

  • xssive on 08/01/2017 - 16:44
    +2

    I am an agent myself, with this kind of behaviour I would expect to lose the property or to compensate the owner.

    I would ask your agent to refund you 2 months management fees. This is why your paying them, if you didn't bring this up, would you still be waiting and for how long?

    Also how well did your agent reference them? If they are messy now, they were messy before. And I would imagine the property manager would of been told this from the previous agency.

    In NSW you are allowed 4 routine inspections per year, I would ask to come on the inspections with the agent and if they aren't improving simply terminate them and find new ones.

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