Over the last few years I have dramatically reduced my meat intake and over the last few months I have started to follow a strict vegetarian diet for moral, health and environmental reasons.
I would just like to start a discussion about how Ozbargainers view the topic.
This isn't an attempt to convert anyone or a means by which to make vegetarians and vegans feel superior. Rather I would be interested to hear peoples opinions.
Please lets keep the discussion rational and civil! :)
That was not the question. Most vegans/vegetarians don't do that.
yeah, wecontinue to exploit what ain't ours, and remain the overpopulating scum of the earth.
in terms of dietary deficiencies, it's mainly b12 and iron, that more women and athletes may become deficient in, in relation to diet. i've been told, have more spinach (with vit c for absorption, still less bioavailable) for iron (see http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/drawback-using-spinach-iron-…), and beetroot for b12, but grown up as a vegetarian, our family has always had supplements lol.
i will say tho, the point about veges not getting enough protein, having two sources or more of vegetable protein, usually does the trick.
http://www.nomeatathlete.com/where-vegetarians-get-protein/: "You don’t need as much protein as most people think, and it’s easy to get what you do need from beans, nuts, seeds, grains, soy, and even greens"
Yeah, Iron (mainly for women) and B12 are the ones to look out for. Also, Omega 3's - in the form of DHA can be harder to get.
Provided you are eating a diet that consists of lots of nuts, seeds, legumes, fruit and veg, you should be fine. Overall my health is much better than when I ate meat, not for a lack of meat but mainly because I am now conscious about what goes in. It doesn't hurt to have a GP run tests once you feel you are maintaining a stable vegan/vegetarian diet to make sure you aren't deficient in anything.
I think the question is better reworded "is it philosophical to eat Meat."
Its clearly a first world problem when you worrying about what your eating rather than when is the next time you will get to eat.
As for growing meat in a test-tube.. you just have to wait for all the GM meat protestors to show up and try and get it banned.
Obviously he hasn't heard of the food chain,
http://www.xtcian.com/foodchain.jpg
Don't be like Jimmy and be 'a grade A moron to ever question eating meat'
Don't kid yourself Heracles26, If a cow ever got the chance, he'd eat you and everyone you care about!
Had to put that there, reminded me of this.
Hahaha!
On the way home from work I purchased 2.2kg of scotch fillet, a dozen eggs and two litres of milk. There's no need for anyone to fear me turning vegan.
Not all heroes wear capes.
I'm just one man. Think of all the steak we can eat if we put aside our prejudice and work together.
So dinner is what time?
I have 14 agisted cows on my hobby farm who genuinely have the best lives before meeting their maker. People asserting that meat must have been mistreated are stretching the truth. Mine get mountain views, rolling hills, springwater and you can watch the younger ones frollicking like Maria Von Trapp in the distance.
Probably an unpopular opinion, but as long as they are cared for well while alive, I don't mind animals being killed for food and have no ethical qualms with it. I'm much more likely to change my habits or reduce my meat intake for the environment but currently I lack the will power to make a change.
I'm much the same. I will try and make sure the animals are taken care of, and reduce my meat intake, but also not going to completely change my habits/what I eat as it's a pretty large commitment and difficult to do. I wouldn't want to do it half-arsed like many people do.
My thoughts on lab grown meat is that arnt farmed animals going to disappear mostly. Meaning while it may be morally correct to grow meat the issue is if we don't need pigs for bacon or sheep for those lovely Aussie day chops. Then why have them, in a century or two the sheep we currently breed may be all but extinct. Just food for thought, I ain't against lab grown meat and will certainly eat it when it is a viable option but for now I am going to enjoy my sausage roll and hope that the poor thing I am eating at least went out quickly.
Animals can exist in the wild and as pets. I didn't believe it too, but there are a lot of people who have cows and chickens as pets. What's enjoyable about animals existing to die when we can eat lab grown meat?
I have no problem with eating meat in terms of ethical or health reasons - I regard meat to be part of a balanced diet.
But considering environmental factors, there are qualms. The farming of beef in particular has had (and is still having) a very adverse affect on our environment, with forests being cleared for grazing room and the cows themselves producing methane as they chew.
In light of this knowledge, I've limited my beef intake. Other meats, like chicken, I don't feel bad at all eating.
i just came here to neg all the vegans comments.
damn 5-a-day limit.
Unfortunately removing animal products means supplementing it with the right combination of vegetables/legumes etc in order to get the right nutritional value out of it (protein in particular can be tricky since the right amino acids need to be consumed together- meaning a combination of few different food items are needed).
This maybe possible for single individuals who are educated or have free time to educate themselves and have the necessary funding but for families who aren't swimming in cash and lack the necessary education- it will be very difficult. Vegan/vegetarian diet just isn't affordable for a lot of families.
Some jump the gun without the right education and put their children on the line too. Ive seen malnourished children in the clinic and the families can be ignorant and really defensive about their life choices.
I think a better discussion would be to find alternative methods to farming the animal products to reduce cruelty and chemicals etc that are involved.
But instead we are going down the path of genetically modifying items and are looking for ways to create and add on more chemicals and process the products further. Our issue is chemicals and excess processing to begin with
With all due respect, this is not true, the body can sort out the amino acids just fine. No need to combine proteins. All plants have complete proteins. Happy to share studies if you wish to learn more.
Also, veganism is significantly cheaper than animal product heavy diets. How expensive do you think grains and beans are?
Its not combining proteins- its combining the right amino acids in order to produce the right chains/protein. Our body does not store essential amino acids - and unless its consumed with the right combination, it can't be converted into the right protein. This really isnt an experimental theory - but more a level one text book information you can find. And no, not "all plants" have complete proteins(meat on the other hand is a complete package) hence why you need to make sure you're consuming the right combination in order to get the right nutritional value out of it.
This view unnecessarily complicates plant-based nutrition. The dietary strategy is generally called combining proteins, also complementing proteins, hence why I used the term.
Although it is right about requiring essential amino acids, it isn't honest about plant proteins being incomplete.
All plant proteins contain a complete profile of essential amino acids. The human body can easily convert into whatever protein our body requires. Gelatin, however, is an incomplete protein (missing tryptophan).
I get where you are coming from though, plant proteins have different levels of amino acids and some plants may be considered very low sources of some essential amino acids. It is very difficult though to design a protein deficient diet on whole plant foods - if you meet caloric needs (i.e. avoiding a lot of processed foods such as sugar and oil)
The low amino acid levels are considered a good thing. It makes most plant protein the preferred source of protein.
- lower aging enzyme
- lower levels of methionine and other sulphur containing amino acids
- lower acid-forming in the kidneys
- less putrefaction in the colon
- zero inflammatory response
- lower IGF-1 spike
"..families can be ignorant and really defensive about their life choices." I see that here a lot now.(for meat eaters that is) and more offensive than defensive too.
you see what you want to see.
damn 5-a-day negging limit. i'll be back tomorrow.
You don't need a few hundred items to go vegetarian. Where did you learn this from? Crazy comment.
You can find ALL amino acids in plants. You know it's nearly impossible to have a protein deficient diet as a vegetarian if you're eating the right amount of calories (although it requires work to ensure you're consuming all essential amino acids).
That's funny because people go vegetarian or vegan to SAVE money! Have you looked at the price tag on vegetarian essentials such as grains, legumes, fruit and veg? Going vegan is expensive if you buy the unnecessary meat-free vegetarian foods and that sort of stuff.
Likewise. I see overfed parents overfeeding their children every day of my life in the food court and out and about.
If everyone stopped eating meat, i wonder how many people would lose their jobs
A lot. But new jobs would be created to meet our appetite for food!
they can all work in vegan cafes and lose their job all over again
Why don't we just consume insects instead?
I read about how insects are
"A good source of protein"
- Bear grylls
The really bigger issue is, is it ethical to over consume?
Arguments
Meat is over consumed and the macro problems are factory farms, inhumane conditions for animals, loss of rainforest for cattle ranches, mad cow disease, unhealthy grain and antibiotic fed meat, loss of biodiversity in the animal population etc
On a micro scale, overconsumption of factory farmed meat by a person has led to obesity, bad diet choices, certain types of illnesses.
So I would say, yes to moving to a more vegetarian diet to reduce the problems listed above.
But similar arguments can be said about overconsumption of other foods such as grains and sugars.
We just need to realise that the short term benefit of overconsumption has negative long term impacts on our own physical and mental health, our environment and for our future generations who have to clean up our mess or pick up the health bill. All of it has a real cost that we are not picking up and that's why the problem such as too much meat being consumed exists.
Put some pork on your fork
yet its the vegeterians/vegans who are trying to convert everyone :)
I'm vegetarian. I only eat animals that eat grass.
I'm a level 5 vegan, I don't anything that casts a shadow.
Why can't we have both ? A little bit of both wouldn't hurt, would it ?
"Burden on the tax system" , " waste money " blah blah.
Our health is more complex then just a piece of meat that potentially may ruin it. How about the toxic gas from cars, factory, your beloved couch, mattress, the lack of exercise, stress, medicine and etc. The list is endless.
No I dont deny the important of diet, but lean on one diet is just too much imo …
And please CUT the moral of out this. There is nothing UNMORAL about eating meat. You can't "convert" people to vego, it MUST come from within.
The presence of other unethical practices should not deter us from discussing diet which is only one of many unethical practices we all take part in.
Yes morals are innate but that does not mean we should abandon all attempts at discourse on the topic. I am not trying to convert anyone despite what people might think, I simply want to discuss the topic. It seems when one wants to delve deeper into why people hold the beliefs they do and why they undertake certain behaviours this puts people on the defensive
My (weird I know) position:
I only buy game meat (kangaroo mostly)..
5 mil+ in qld, being culled anyway.
prob have a better more natural life than my processed one
then.. chic chic BOOM
it's healthy and much more enviro friendly than farmed introduced species.
only concern may be if the kangaroo was grazing in some polluted area.. but meat is inspected etc so risk is low.
I also sometimes eat free-range chicken for variety/health.
only cage free eggs.
i don't judge anyone for what they eat tho.
I have no problems being a carnivore, but I reckon there's a good chance that in 200 years people will look back on meat eating like we do slavery.
i reckon not, because slavery=humans, eating animals=not human
cannabalism will always be frowned upon, because=humans.
Can you imagine the seven wonders of the world without slavery?
That's a myth. The pyramids were not built by slaves.
The gladiators were vegetarian, but not for long enough to get B12 deficiency :)
Technically North Korean generals aren't slaves. They just get immolated for the wackiest reasons.
If you choose to become a vegetarian, then you should stick to a healthy and balanced diet. The key to forming any healthy eating plan, vegetarian or not, is including a variety of nutritious items from every major food group that will satisfy all of your nutritional needs.
Top of the food chain.
I do and will happily continue eating foie gras.
I am vegan.
I don't care what you eat.
I don't care for your opinion on what I eat.
That's all.
Would you like us to care about your none-opinion opinion?
There is nothing wrong about giving opinion in a friendly way when it appears welcomed. I think that's what exactly what happened with the OP.
If you really don't care others opinions or do not intend to give any, what do you feel the need to write above?
Because numerous people have commented on this thread that vegans are preachy and fanatical, I am simply offering my alternate position.
For example:
"It does not matter how ethical you find it. It is more of how rewarding you find shaming non-vegans and the resulting social approval."
"well thats why majority of people dislike or hate vegan people."
"Then suddenly they decide to stop eating meat and expect everyone around them to do the same."
"No wonder why meat eaters mostly dislike you guys. You cannot accept a different opinion. Honestly just leave here quietly."
"I believe Vego's to be good people..its the Vegans who we all need to watch out for!"
"Vegans tend to be more fanatical"
great summary, thanks.
Okay, that makes sense.
I do not think most vegans go overboard to influence others. When they do, their opinions may be making an impression it can make others feel guilty.
For the sake of clarity, the OP wrote "Vegans tend to be more fanatical".
Vegetarian vs. Vegan? Some in-fighting occurring.
Grabs popcorn to watch.
http://greatist.com/eat/healthy-popcorn-recipes
@insular: I do not know that for a fact - the quotes also not meant to describe vegans but explanation why he wrote what he wrote at the beginning.
what do you mean by 'most' means, over 50%, … 90%? How did you come to know this - I don't think you'd expect use to value your gut feelings ;)
@hobbsthetiger: anywhere between 50-90%
couldn't understand the last sentence. must be the nutritional deficiencies kicking in.
@insular:
I love to think that it's just the few "loud"/fanatical vegans that you notice.
Most vegans/vegetarians I know do that for themselves and don't talk much about it, unless they have a reason. (No, someone mentioning meat on Facebook is not a reason).
You probably met a lot more vegans in your life than you think, without noticing, because they acted just like normal people.
@MrTweek: ive met plenty of vegans.
more often than not, they will slide in the mention after meeting them. sometimes they won't, as you say, bring attention to it. like when i kindly offered someone some KFC and she just ignored me. that's just rude. discovered later that she was vegan. but the warning signs were all there, hippy pants, spiritual books etc.
i've gotten along fine with vegans in the short term, but it always becomes an issue in the long term. mainly because it always seems to lead to other mental health issues that are manifested within certain minorities. eg. feminists, LBGTOMGWTFBBQ rights advocates etc.
but yes, the mentally ill vegans that can't see that it's simply not a lifestyle or diet for everyone get noticed and consequently discriminated against, by me.
@insular:
Hmm, while I heard of these people on the internet, I don't remember meeting many of them in person.
That makes me think it's not generally a vegan problem.
More a problem of some people being desperate attention seekers and becoming (profanity) because of this.
And some of them try getting their attention by becoming vegans or gluten free hipsters and insisting that their shit should matter to everyone else.
Yes, it's ethical to eat meat, and if you eat vegetables you're destroying the planet.
http://superhumanradio.com/blog/why-soy-unsustainable-beef-b…
Bikies
Eat meat.
Unless you are trying some ozbargain hack to reduce credit card debit etc.
Even then.if you have kids… give them meat and eat your peas
bro, organic-pesticide-free-ethically-sourced-cruelty-free-vegetables are more expensive than meat.
DOWN DOWN.
I've started only flushing for number twos. I've been wondering - is it ethical to flush for number ones?
Carnism - A dogmatic RELIGION base entirely upon VIOLENCE, the main belief system of which is that it is morally justifiable and/or necessary to kill animals and eat their dead flesh.
This is THE ULTIMATE EXPRESSION of DOMINATION.
Listen to this: https://youtu.be/4txSH7ThXPE
You should look up the term 'value judgement' and the word 'moot'.
tell that to a Lion
I'm tell you and other Human beings capable of higher order thinking.
Are you a lion? Are you just another animal?
"A nation's moral progress can be judge by the way it treats its animals"
- Mahatma Ghandi
Imagine this.
A group of Aliens sitting around a dinner table with a Human being as their meal and they say this to each other to Justify eating this human.
1) "We have our own problems, don't have time to worry about whether they suffer or not"
2) "They kill other animals for food so why shouldn't we do the same?"
3) "Don't worry this was killed 'humanely'"
4) "I feel bad but I can't give up 'my' meat, it's just too tastey"
5) "God gave us dominion over them, so that means we can murder and use them as we please."
6) "They are not conscious or aware like us, so it's ok to kill them for food."
A group of Aliens sitting around a dinner table with a Human being as their meal and they say this to each other to Justify eating this human.
3) "Don't worry this was killed 'humanely'"
i see what you did there
If aliens do come and do just that and have the power to do so, there is a chance of unknown probability that they will do it regardless whether or not 100 per cent of human population eat only grass.
Watch "Earthlings" and you'll have the answer to your question…
I DARE any meat eaters to watch these in its entirety.
There's also an Australian version called "Lucent".
Lucent (2014) - Full Documentary
I've watched several documentaries on netflix, and read quite a bit online. The more I read/watch, the more confusing it seems.
There are different qualified experts saying different things:
-> Vegan diets reduce cancer and diabetes, carbs are okay, it's protein you need to avoid.
-> Carbs are causing diabetes and cancer, you need fats and protein.
-> Eat whatever you want, as long as you only eat within a 4 hour window and fast the rest of the time.
-> You must have 0.5-1g of protein for every lb you weigh.
There's no way to know who to believe, they've all got well-educated, qualified experts behind them
they've all got well-educated, qualified experts behind them
there's your problem right there.
Care to elaborate?
i could but it'd take too long.
Yes, everyone seems to have an agenda. Although convincing, the documentaries you mentioned didn't sit well with me 100% either. Conflicting information made it hard. I suppose anyone who takes them at face value is foolish anyway, a logical person would look into it more.
Experts don't generally advocate for a vegan diet, because this makes no real claims about what one is eating. Someone who eats nothing but chips and oreos might be following a vegan diet.
Our health crisis seems to be a lot about what we are not eating as much as it is what we are eating.
This site has the greatest source of information I've found - http://nutritionfacts.org/
Good luck.
ahhhh 'the greatest source of information', ie. another pro-vegan website
I saw the founder of this site on the same documentary on netflix, which had a crazy guy from a rock band comparing the slaughter of cows with the holocaust :(
vegans always compare with the holocaust for shock value. it's insulting to the PEOPLE that died in the holocaust.
Yeah, Holocaust comparisons are generally unhelpful. Greger's work is certainly above that.
Mufasa: Everything you see exists together in a delicate balance. As king, you need to understand that balance and respect all the creatures, from the crawling ant to the leaping antelope.
Simba: But, Dad, don't we eat the antelope?
Mufasa: Yes, Simba, but let me explain. When we die, our bodies become the grass, and the antelope eat the grass. And so we are all connected in the great Circle of Life.
—Mufasa and Simba
Unethical commercial farming is unethical.
In my mind, i know going vegetarian is the way to go but the economics of going full vegetarian is a little off i.e. its more expensive to eat vegetables than eating meat. and so i try to add more vegetables in meals when the budget permits.
but to answer the OPs question, considering the damage mass production meat farms does to the environment alone should be enough to convert people to going vegetarian - i.e it is not ethical, yes, but we are sometimes driven not by ethics alone.
eating meat is not sustainable in the long run, as much as running everything on petrol is not sustainable; even though electric cars are the superior choice, people just dont buy them because of cost, mainly (plus other factors)
oh but if we all eat organic pesticide free vegetables somehow they will all become magically cheaper because there is more demand.
and all the grain that isn't fed to the cows will be available for humans to eat.
NOTHING COULD GO WRONG.
There are expensive cuts of meat, and cheap cuts. Right? Same for vegetables. Sweet potato and beans are probably the best bang for buck.
Vegetarian for 20 years here. When I realised where meat came from after a pet died when I was a kid (10 years old), I couldn't do it anymore and have been vego ever since.
It's been easy for me though, I'm Indian and Indian diets are traditionally vegetarian and nutritionally balanced accordingly.
I highly recommend anyone thinking of going vego to think of switching to indian food as their main cuisine. It's delicious, easy to make (once you buy the spices) and super cheap (a daal will last me 2 days and cost ~$5)
Interesting. How do Indian Veg. diets make up for what some say that vegetarian diets miss.
Lentils, beans, spices, lots of leafy veggies
- Good sources of protein, iron, B12, folate, various nutrients
- Carbs from flat breads and rice
The good thing about Indian is you can add and mix whatever veggies you want
I would kill cows by shooting live piglets at them if it meant I could eat meat.
Come at me.
My cat thinks so.
That's what they always say, human now smart enough to become vegetarian, but without meat, don't think human can be smarter any more.
sounds like a new chinese proverb
I've come across girls whilst out having a drink who think that Vegan is just being vegetarian for ethical reasons 😂😂😂😂 I'm really getting the impressions that Vegan is the new viral trend and ties in with the whole #fitspo (post your gym gains in instagram and ass in a g-banger) trend at the moment!
what's wrong with my ass in a g-banger?
(man thong)
Absolutely nothing, unless it's followed by some inspirational post about self respect and not worrying about being judged by others etc haha
Imagine this.
A group of Aliens sitting around a dinner table with a Human being as their meal and they say this to each other to Justify eating this human.
1) "We have our own problems, don't have time to worry about whether they suffer or not"
2) "They kill other animals for food so why shouldn't we do the same?"
3) "Don't worry this was killed 'humanely'"
4) "I feel bad but I can't give up 'my' meat, it's just too tastey"
5) "God gave us dominion over them, so that means we can murder and use them as we please."
6) "They are not conscious or aware like us, so it's ok to kill them for food."
you already posted that. because we didnt see your pro-vegan comments the first time round, you had to post it twice. #vegans
I extracted it from a reply to someone else so others can see.
Anyway for those who lack the imagination here is the image:
http://imgur.com/a/VrARG
oh it makes so much more sense now that i've seen the image.
i'll go vegan tomorrow!
You can start by reducing meat intake and start learning about how to get more vege.
It's not supposed to be easy and it takes a lot of WILL to take these little steps.
I eat meat and I dont want "judgment" and "ethics" bought into my life (from vegans) because I want to eat Meat, Humans by nature are meat eaters full stop!