Is It Ethical to Eat Meat?

Over the last few years I have dramatically reduced my meat intake and over the last few months I have started to follow a strict vegetarian diet for moral, health and environmental reasons.

I would just like to start a discussion about how Ozbargainers view the topic.

This isn't an attempt to convert anyone or a means by which to make vegetarians and vegans feel superior. Rather I would be interested to hear peoples opinions.

Please lets keep the discussion rational and civil! :)

Comments

      • Naturalistic fallacy.

        That seems to be a loose term that's made up by a philosopher that other philosophers argue against - so it really means nothing.

        …and work upon what are good and what are not.

        Who would control/determine what is good and what is not? What we see as good today may not be so good tomorrow. If us meat eaters are being unethical, what do you call a man who's got a hungry family and a pet cow? What would be more unethical - for him to kill the cow to feed his family or for him to let his family starve to death?
        It's a very subjective matter.

        • -2

          Many people argue for eating meat by stating it is natural. Ignore the term naturalistic fallacy if you like but it doesnt change the fact that just because something is natural doesnt make it good or right

          Any sane person knows what the farmer should do in his position. But we are speaking generally for those of us not in this position, who can make informed choices

        • +1

          That seems to be a loose term that's made up by a philosopher that other philosophers argue against - so it really means nothing.

          It is a logical fallacy used to push a certain argument. If someone uses a fallacy then it is merely a tactic to win by exploiting human vulnerability to cognitive biases.

          https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-nature

          If us meat eaters are being unethical, what do you call a man who's got a hungry family and a pet cow? What would be more unethical - for him to kill the cow to feed his family or for him to let his family starve to death?
          It's a very subjective matter.

          I am a meat eater. It does not make my action of killing an animal ethical even if I wanted to feel good about it.
          Humans will behave like animals if they are kept in animal like conditions, and have even resorted to cannibalism. However the case you are putting is of having no other choice. That is not the case in a first world country. It is a matter of just appealing to your taste, unthought action, convenience, ignorance or a whim. Australia has nutritional abundance and many alternatives and nobody is forced to feed their family the only animal. I would really support a person forced to feed the animal to feed the ones he cares, it is a sad situation afterall. Animals are used for cancer research and I can understand that, however animals being killed for sport or just a fashion accessory is not justifiable and it is barbaric and unethical. It is pretty clear to me, I don't think it is subjective.

  • Is It Ethical to Eat Meat?

    Yes. Ethics are really just a way of being earnest about what's in vogue though. For example 100 years ago it was not unethical to have a homosexual relationship, 1000 years ago it was and so on.

    • +1

      We can still move towards a more moral way of living though. Just because something is the way it is, whether or not that is the result of social constructs, doesn't mean we shouldn't question it.

      Thanks!

      • I think he's suggesting that the idea of 'more moral' depends on what's currently fashionable. Right now whether you eat meat is a moral issue, so people talk about the morals and you think we should be 'more moral' and someone else doesn't care. In 100 years, people probably won't think of this has a moral issue. Just like today lots of people don't think of homosexuality as a moral issue (i.e. homosexuality isn't morally right or wrong, it just is)

  • +3

    I have one vegetarian meal a day - breakfast. Weetbix with raspberries

  • +3

    If 1 day that we discover plants do feel pain/suffering when we remove them from their soil, do we stop eating veg and fruit as well?

    Humans need to eat, and it will have to be another living item (unless you can eat rocks to survive). Whether it be plants or animals. You are essentially sacrificing another living being to sustain your living no matter which way you go.

    I too am not fond of the malpractices of many farms and animal slaughterhouse but most in first world countries are regulated and are actually good. In some cases like a few farms in Japan, I think the cows actually have a much better life than if they were out in the wild themselves (Edit: or much better life than most human beings).

    Humans need to eat living beings to survive, and for survival, there is nothing ethical or unethical about it.

    It is unethical if a lion eats a zebra?

    or it is more unethical if you force feed a cat (a meat eater) vegetarian food until it dies of lack of nutrients?

    if cutting out meat produce, 60% of the population will die of hunger (mainly ones that don't have sustaining food source when most first world countries will take all the vegetation they want and leave the others with crap all), is it more unethical if we don't eat meat?

  • You Can't Beat Meat

    • +4

      I'll send you a video of me proving that wrong if that's your kind of thing

  • +6

    I've been vegetarian for 20 years. I stopped eating meat due to taste. also I wasn't prepared to kill an animal so I don't believe I should eat them. also I was a poor uni student living with a vegan. I will kill pests - rabbits, european carp - when I visit my in-laws farm. not a problem there.

    my 3 children are mostly vegetarian (only white meats , though my middle child is a strict vegetarian like myself). my 2 eldest children are the tallest students in their year levels. my youngest is bang on average in height (stating this to pre-empt any "but children need meat to grow" arguement). I don't cook meat for them. they can eat it when we go out or if they are at school or else where. that's their choice.

  • -1

    Hi all,

    If it is a moral thing like you say…
    You do know plants feel pain.
    Some types also live for a short time in supermarkets, slowly dying.

  • +3

    Sigh another one of these threads. OP saying he is not trying to convert and just getting opinions but then he says rubbish like 'they won't understand' and 'they don't know any better'.

    How about you stop being a dictator and care what people eat. I wouldn't eat lab grown meat for example. Prefer the real animal, just like how prefer whole foods then supplements.

    If you want to go vegan, that's fine, but deal with society being majority meat eater.

    Honestly, you should visit other countries and see what they eat.

    • -5

      you have completely taken me out of context, did you even read the comments properly?

      I can't even tell if you're trolling but please go read what I said

    • +1

      Troll is obvious

    • -1

      Lol, 'dictator' I think you're whinging. Said he wants to have a discussing.

  • Higher welfare meat and eggs only

  • +5

    Is it ethical to ask if it's ethical to eat meat?

  • +1

    Modern methods for killing animals by stunning them first, means they don't suffer.

    So I eat meat happily and guilt free knowing no animal suffered for my meat lovers pizza. (40% off at Dominos!)

  • +3

    A lot of people don't eat meat because of reasons beyond moral/ ethical issues such as stink/filth (slaughtering, packaging, purchasing, and cooking meat is quite hard on nose and eyes). Some don't eat meat for religious or cultural reasons. Some don't eat it for health reasons (allergies, cholesterol, etc.). There can be many reasons for not eating meat beyond ethics and moral.

    • +2

      Absolutely correct!

    • -2

      @virhlpool you seem to have the question in a better frame than op

  • it sucks to be the animal getting slaughtered, however it would be highly unethical to waste any of it.

  • +6

    I have a very close friend turn to veganism about a year ago. I personally don't care if someone eats meat, vegetarian only, vegan only etc.

    Unfortunately he alienated everyone by making everyone feel wrong for their choices while he was high and mighty in his vegan throne.

    No one deserves that kind of negativity in their lives. No matter their choices.

    • +4

      well thats why majority of people dislike or hate vegan people. It's not so much of them not eating meat but them trying to push the ideas to ask and trying to make us feel bad for eating meat when honestly we know where the food comes from and we don't care either way.

      Serves him right for alienating himself, he probably watch those propaganda vegan videos to get that idea. Maybe then he will know what he did wrong.

      • +3

        Yes pretty much on those Youtube propaganda videos all day long. He uses them to support his arguments.

        It's the superiority complex that drives everyone away.

      • +1

        It's definitely them eating meat. I think it's mostly that people feel threatened by others who do something different to themselves. Like how car drivers go ballistic when they pass cyclists. Sure there are vegetarians/vegans who try and tell you what to do, but so do conservative politicians and they still seem popular. People who 'don't like vegetarians' generally relish the chance to hate someone for being different, when it's otherwise looked down. 'Vegetarians are self righteous' is a poor excuse.

    • +4

      Vegan being superior is a Western concept. In fact, Veganism itself is a Western concept. Vegetarianism is followed in a number of countries in Asia, India being the largest one. There it's more of a religious/ cultural / ethical choice rather than a badge to be a superior person in society. People don't brag about being vegetarian, rather they shy away from meat selling market places as they are not very hygienic and clean at times. I wonder how our Western society has related Veganism to up-class living.

      • It's much more about fitting that fat arse into some lycra yoga pants and trading up than anything ethical

      • I find that western societies/individuals seem to be very concerned about retaining the moral highground and appearing to either be a good person or the victim. Shaming and guilting seems to be the chosen punishment to be administered while everyone is trying to clamber up the moral highground.
        Which is weird because life is zero-sum and just by living somebody else is paying the price.

    • -1

      This is an issue that needs to be addressed otherwise there will continue to be resistance to simply having these discussions. Read some of the comments here, people get defensive and worked up very easily and that makes it very hard to have a rational talk

      • -2

        No it's nothing to do with being defensive. The problem is with vegans/vegetarians, in one form or another most likely they were also meat eaters. Then suddenly they decide to stop eating meat and expect everyone around them to do the same.

        Just leave us meat eaters alone in our own corner and we won't bother you. Vegans/vegetarians should hang in your own corner where you can discuss the joys of no meat life with like minded people.

        If meat eaters one day decide to stop eating meat, then they will on their own time. Nothing worse than being forced to do something you're not willing to do yet.

        • No one is forcing you to post here, if you want to have a rational discussion then feel free to contribute but please don't say that the conversation shouldn't happen.

        • -1

          @Heracles26:

          But why do you start a topic asking this question then be defensive when non vegetarians disagree with you?

    • No one deserves that kind of negativity in their lives. No matter their choices.

      1.
      What is you guys are believers of Scientology and your friend is not… Or you think the world is going end soon etc. What is you guys chose to do ice and he is not?

      Some people say in the future eating meat would be seen as the same we not look at slavery.

      2.
      I find it really difficult to believe this personality trait comes just because someone just being vegan. How was he before?

  • +2

    What amazes me is that people have a heart attack when a dog gets killed etc but yet it is ok to eat a goat or pig?
    How is this any different?
    We have become more like Idi Amin and the gang.
    I have started becoming vegan and am proud of it.

    • +3

      if they had a pet pig or goat and it was killed i'd assume they would feel the same as if their dog got killed.

      • +5

        When I lived in Samoa, we had pet pigs. When it was time to eat them, we swapped with neighbours, so we weren't eating our pet

  • +2

    Out on interest, are there any long term vegans (as in practicing over 8 years) that are also fatties?

    I have observed a heap of fat vegans but I think its because they hadn't converted for long.

    • +2

      I know a few, long term.

      They deep fry a lot of what they eat.

    • +1

      Im sure there are some overweight and obese vegos. I have increased my carb intake since starting the diet which has health concerns in itself but I am conscious of this fact. Someone following a vego diet isnt immune from putting on weight

  • +5

    Over the last few years I have dramatically reduced my meat intake

    Dont worry about it OP, I have dramatically increased mine, so it all balances out in the end.

  • +8

    Lacto-ovo vegetarian for more than 20 years, and my 3 children are all vegetarian too (have been since birth, oldest now 16). As an ozbargainer, worth pointing out it can be significantly cheaper to start with!

    None of us take any supplements. Blood tests every couple of years show everything (including iron) are at normal levels. That said, we are careful to eat a balanced diet that is heavier on nutrition and not just carby filler foods like bread and pasta. I always laugh when friends talk about how they're worried vegetarianism won't give them the nutrients they need when they just eat pasta and sauce from a bottle with some crappy mince as an evening meal. Bizarre… I've met so many self-righteous meat-eaters who simply don't eat a balanced diet but are completely self-assured.

    Originally my conversion was due to an allergy to a common preservative used in meat. That's since been banned, but I never went back because of the ethical and health benefits. I haven't actually thrown up for 20 years. Which is crazy, right? Seems I was sensitive to various food poisonings that are highly correlated with poor practices around meat preparation and storage.

    Theoretically, locally grown low-mileage meat that is ethically produced (free roaming, ecologically diverse farming) would be excusable on one level, however this is super expensive and not very practical when you are feeding billions. But I have trouble with factory farmed, short lived animals beefed up on antibiotics and growth hormones and with limited movement, slaughtered a long way away from markets and transported using diesel trucks etc etc. Personally, this care extends to other things too, such as ethical organic cotton for clothes and ensuring manufactured goods are made by people paid a living wage wherever possible. As a result I tend to buy far fewer 'things' that are much higher quality, and often locally made. I'm not perfect, but I think as an orientation this is a sound set of aspirational basics.

    If you are considering switching to vegetarianism, or even dabbling, spend a couple of bucks on getting the advice of a nutritionist who specialises in vegetarianism - they'll give you a meal plan that can be rotated every couple of weeks or so until you are comfortable with what things you need to include. You'll soon find that eating a Western diet that's been vegetarianised is pretty ordinary (veggie sausages and vegetables - really??) but there are some amazing things you can eat based on recipes from our south-east asian neighbours. Fruits and vegetables, even high nutrition ones, are actually pretty cheap compared to meat.

  • I'm on a diet and I eat 850-1000g of meat every day. I've never felt better and my blood test are exceptional…

  • +1

    I believe eating meat is not moral if you have financial means to make morally sound decisions. People will perform extraordinary mental gymnastics to avoid thinking about where their meat comes from and whether or not it is moral. In Australia many of us have the financial means to walk into a supermarket and choose from a wide variety of products. That includes choosing vegetarian options.

    It boils down to this: in many cases animals live cruelly short lives in poor conditions.

    Your school of thought regarding moral ethics will dictate your response. I believe we have a duty to minimise harm where possible. Therefore my response is to avoid eating meat (and luckily I can afford to do so).

    This does not take into account taste, human physiology, family upbringing, etc, as other commenters have mentioned. I'd argue those don't really fit into this topic about ethics.

    • Great post thank you!

      There needs to be more government support for the production of lab grown meat so that we can put these issues to rest!

  • +1

    I could care less about the ethics. We rigged the food chain and certain animals got the crap end of that.

    I make an effort to eat less beef for personal health and the environment but that's about it.

  • +1

    I am interested in the "Health reason".
    In a landmark paper published in 2013 http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullart…, they found that the pesco-vegetarian diet (vegan+fish) had lowest overall mortality. What do you think about becoming a pesco-vegetarian?

    • I am not a huge fan of seafood to begin with but I did, and still do, entertain the idea of eating fish now and again.

      When I mention health reasons I refer to the practices that occur in factory farming around giving animals antibiotics to prevent disease etc. and whatever else these animals are given to increase their size, rate of growth etc. - surely this isnt "natural" and it cant be good for us

  • +1

    I'm not entirely concerned about the animal suffering in farms as that is why the farmers produced and raised them in the first place( to be slaughtered for consumption).
    The environmental impact of meat is of far more significance in my opinion.
    It is several magnitudes more energy/water efficient to feed people with a vegetarian diet and than with a mixed diet.
    That being said, eating meat has been ingrained in us over millions of years. Unlike herbivores we cant naturally function without at least a small quantity of animal matter to supplement our diet, some people (not all)will naturally crave meat if they go too long without it (me included).

    So i'm not saying having vegan/vege diets is bad but it may be more manageable/realistic to reduce the population's consumption of meat instead through policy changes. Reducing meat farming related tax cuts, subsidies, introducing tariffs on foreign meat and making meat generally more expensive to consume will lower general consumption. ( With the down side being that the higher income individuals will be negligibly affected by such policies while the opposite would be true for lower income individuals)

  • +2

    I eat meat because it tastes fan-f'n-tastic.

    I don't care what you do.

  • How do you feel after becoming a vegetarian? Do you feel more tired or less well compared with before? I don't mind not eating meat but worried about not being able to function normally.

    • I have slowly decreased my consumption and I cant say I have noticed any difference really. I do make sure I eat a balanced diet and make an effort to eat a variety of foods however.

  • It's definitely not environmentally responsible, but what's the chance of you convincing a significant portion of the population to stop eating meat? You might convince a couple hundred people to go vegetarian but the world is 7 billion people and growing every day.

    I think lab grown meat is the only answer that I can see from the horizon. Meat is just what human need, and our population has exploded in the past 100 years, there's no way around massively producing meat at the moment.

    • I don't think we should just give up for that reason though!

      Yes lab grown meat is the way of the future it just needs to get to the stage where it is affordable

    • Supposedly the pop. in each Aus state are that are vegetarians or almost all vegetarians are roughly 12%. I think that's probably too high, although it is similar to another stat that says 12% of UK adults are vegetarian.

  • +5

    When I was young and naive I would explain to vegetarians that there is nothing wrong with eating meat.

    But as I got older I began to notice something, the price of meat was increasing, it was starting to get kind of expensive!

    More people eating meat is not going to help.

    Encourage the vegetarians, let them eat their plants.

    • +1

      But then the price of salad goes up, and we're forced to substitute bacon for lettuce.

      On second thoughts..

      • We should then resort to …. soylent.

    • Why cant you live without meat? Simply because you would be missing out on the taste?

      • Look at this. Honestly just stop, you're being one of those annoying veggie people who wants people to agree with you and will bark at anyone that disagrees with you and/or have a different opinion.

        How about you stop complaining and just accept the fact you are in the minority. These posts make meat eaters want to purposely find you and eat a piece of meat in front of you to shush you up.

        No wonder why meat eaters mostly dislike you guys. You cannot accept a different opinion. Honestly just leave here quietly.

        You be a good vegan without complaining and us meat eaters will eat both meat and veggies. Alright? Can you do that?

        You're an adult. You're mature enough to know when a fight is lost.

        • I am simply trying to get you to look critically at your beliefs and why you hold them. People do get very defensive when you do question their beliefs though so I can see where you are coming from.

        • +1

          I didnt mean to come accross as hostile I apologise if thats how I cam accross. I simply wanted to know the rationale behind your statement. Thanks!

  • +1

    Is it ethical to breathe air?

    • Yes? What lead you to question the ethics of air-breathing?

      • You are using up air and polluting it with carbon dioxide. But your body ia built to do it.

  • Mums been a veg for a quite a number of years now. TBH i don't she has ever felt any better since going veg…prior to converting, she didn't really enjoy the taste of meat or much of it. Now she knows the nutritional benefits of different veggies and what not and has a healthier and balanced diet. In saying that, I'm a meat eater. i love meat. i cant live without it. I enjoy the odd veg meal (because of my mum), but i would probably a chunk of the cheapest cut of meat over a good salad lol.

    I have no issue with the slaughtering of an animal for human consumption. I understand the industry isn't perfect, but which industry is? i guess how can an industry whom takes lives each day ever be perfect?

    I believe unless you are a vegan, Meat eaters and Vegetarians are fair game. I commend you Heracles26. If i had the drive to make a massive life change like losing meat, i would…but i can't.

    • I love the taste of meat and it has been difficult to make the change. In the past I myself could not have fathomed becoming a vegetarian but here I am haha!

      • ye power to you buddy! There are some very good vego options and substitutions…If you are craving meat, there are good 'fake meat' options which are really just different ways to process mushroom stalks.

        • I am yet to look into any of these options but its good to know they are available. Thanks!

  • -1

    It really is the internet of extremes.
    We all know what a healthy balanced diet looks like, it's up to the individual, the risks we take by not eating healthy, balanced variety of food.

    On another note, praise the vegans for eating environmentaly
    Consciously,
    also smokers and the obese for cutting their lives short.
    Now if we can just get the Chinese and Indians really depressed, maybe by cutting their supply of soy sauce and curry, the planet may stand a chance.

    • What does a healthy balanced diet look like?
      Is eating meat healthy the way it is now produced by factory farms?

      • Yes. You are an omnivore. Your teeth. Your metabolism. Your organs. All built to include meat in the diet.

  • +1
    • 'tis hard being green. Thanks rofl.

  • +1

    @Heracles26 - have you read Animal Liberation by Peter Singer. It's from the 1970s, but it was updated not too long ago. It's an interesting exploration of the ethical and philosophical issues relating to not just raising and killing animals for meat consumption, but the whole other side of animal testing. The books worth a read for anyone interested in the topic - vegans, vegos and meat eaters alike.

    The majority of people in the world treat animals as objects - apart from a few species selected for domestic companionship, or wildlife conservation. Yet many animals have evolved pretty sophisticated social intelligence and emotions and aren't insensate to the experience of intensive factory farming. Animals hunting other animals in the wild is one thing. However, even if you are a committed omnivore it's interesting to explore and question the underpinnings of our cultural framework that accepts factory farming as normative. Many meat eaters would probably be surprised at the levels of barbarism certain lab animals have been subjected to throughout history, even taking into account the advances of science that have supposedly resulted (i.e. I'm not anti science - just some of these psych tests on animals over time don't really seem to achieve anything other than torturing the test subject).

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29380.Animal_Liberation

    Anyway, it's worth a look as the arguments are well thought out and dare I say somewhat more nuanced than the type from the gut style keyboard warrior-ing that tends to predominate in your average internet forum.

    • Thanks for the recommendation, I have added it to my wishlsit on bookdepositor.

      Veganism and vegetarianism have a bad name thanks to these keyboard warriors - the way some vegans/vegetarians approach the issue definitely needs to be addressed

      • I actually disagree that it's the keyboard warriors that give it a bad name - but I agree with you that vegos and vegans need to realise that they have to be quite strategic and diplomatic in the way they broach the issue.

        One one hand I don't understand why committed omnivores are so sensitive to the slightest hint of criticism about the ethical implications of their eating choices. But on the other hand, these choices are informed by deeply held cultural beliefs, strong personal preferences, maintained by a speciesist world view (Singer elaborates on Speciesism) and it can be quite confronting to be 'judged' as they say.

        I think there will always be people who aggressively advocate for their eating habits and will choose to attack those who propose another way. However, the reality is is that they are simply vocalising the inherent values in our society about the way it treats animals other than humans (they do sometimes seem to forget we are animals ourselves).

        My view is that these discussions on forums between randoms rarely result in considered and intelligent debate - people on both sides of the argument (vegans/vegos v omnivores) tend to use it as an opportunity to impose their own prejudices on each other. (And don't forget vegans v vegos!)

        I don't know what the solution is. I've made choices that are positive and fulfilling to me, and I try and share them if anyone is interested, but I don't really ever broach the topic as it often just serves to alienate people and hardens their position against contemplating vego/veganism.

        Having said that, I think there is room for orgs such as PETA and Animals Australia to make a positive contribution by advocating on a wider political level. Live Export trade etc. As well as Animal Liberation in exposing cruel and illegal farming practices.

  • +10

    Let me ask you this, if its not ethical to eat meat, why is it ethical to have children?

    Over roughly 80 years, how much plastics, waste, pollution etc does the average human produce?

    • From an environmental standpoint it probably isn't a great idea. The world's population consumes the equivalent of 1.6 Earths a year.

      • +1

        The world's population consumes the equivalent of 1.6 Earths a year.

        What on earth does this mean?

        This planet's mass is roughly 6 x 10^24 kg. How can humans consume 1.6 times itself? (Unless it is being 'replenished' at an astounding rate from outside sources. Oh. And it's not.)

    • +1

      Maybe it isnt ethical to have children - would be an interesting discussion to have for sure!

      Everyone contributes a lot to the above but maybe thats why we shoud start to look critically at how we can reduce our impact, for example, taking a look at our dietary habits

    • Why isn't it ethical to have children? Sorry you were born into this world

      • +1

        Because even a single person's environmental impact over their life is absolutely monumental. Makes more sense to adopt, both from an environmental and moral standpoint.

        • morals…..come on….really? There is no moral or immoral way to have a child when 2 people come together and plan out their lives which includes the little one.

          From an environmental standpoint
          There is an understanding that if you have enough kids to cover your footprint (eg. 1 couple will have maximum 2 kids) then theres no over-population concerns but it's the people who have 3 or more who are the issue with our world population.

          From a moral standpoint
          Don't bring kids into the equation. You were once a child….conceived by your parents…oh wow, it must suck having immoral parents.

          In order to adopt, you would have to have 2 other people have a child….does that mean its immoral for them to have it in the first place. Can you really adopt from bad people? and to think they gave up the kid because they either could provide because of addiction, safe home or simply unwanted…thats twice as bad.

        • @andrgram:

          I don't really understand what you're going on about frankly.

          I just mean that, objectively, it is a more humanitarian decision to adopt a child than it is to have your own. Not that I have something against people having children that they love and care for, of course not, but there's already plenty of children out there that don't have that basic relationship with an adult figure which I find really saddening. That's my moral point, anyway.

    • +2

      I think an argument to be drawn from this is :
      Less children = less meat consumed = less ethical problems + less environmental problems = less problems in general.

      • Haha, hit the nail on the head. It's just basic mathematics, when it comes down to it.

  • +3

    I'm much more concerned about the environmental impact of eating beef, in particular. We've cut down our beef intake significantly, but admittedly we eat kangaroo more often as a result. But I assume it has less of an impact on the environment.

    • You are probably right!

    • Why are cows any different to roos? both live off the land, both roam free, both get slaughtered. Meat is meat.

      • Well it's my understanding andrgram that roos to a lot less energy to grow and have a much smaller carbon footprint. Not to mention they're healthier to consume.

  • +3

    Reading this thread makes me crave a massive piece of medium rare steak.

    • Even when I did eat meat I never craved beef, I love chicken way more haha!

  • +3

    Since modern day cultivation of plants foods (grains, fruits, vegetables) results in the mass killing of birds, mice, insects and other animals, i think it's hard to argue an 'ethical' justification of the killing animals to be vegan or vegetarian.

    http://reducing-suffering.org/crop-cultivation-and-wild-anim…
    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/mic…

    If your ethical concerns are for the environmental impacts of animal agriculture, then that’s valid.

    • Almost all practices we take part in directly or indirectly result in some harm, but I still think the fact holds that some practices are worse than others.

      But yes as you have said there is a lot more to it than the ethical/moral side to this argument

    • +3

      This is a very reasonable point, and I'm glad I refrained from making it until I had read this far through the thread.

      Yes, human agriculture results in vastly more 'killing', 'non-existence', lingering deaths (Painful? Unknown.) than the harvesting of livestock. Because… small animals are animals too. Insects are animals too.

      Many commenters are placing a 'higher' value on bigger critters; cows, pigs, etc, than on smaller ones. But if one is upset about the 'suffering' of a large mammal raised purely for consumption, is it not equally upsetting if a mouse or a beetle or a weevil 'suffers' through agricultural control or extermination?

      Where is the suffering line drawn? Half the time we barely know what our fellow humans can feel, let alone all of the other species on the planet. Does a bear with a leg in a trap feel more anguish and pain that a mouse caught similarly? I dunno. How the hell do you work that out?

      To me, it seems like there is a large degree of anthropomorphism at play here: some feel guilt eating the big cuddly human-like creatures. But the even more destructive consequences on little animals of intensive agriculture are less concerning because they are not as cute. (On a somewhat tangential note: many species of vulture are in extreme danger of dying out, as little money can be raised to help the ugly buggers. But there's lots of cash for the pandas.)

      Could the question be put: Is the suffering of 100 mice equal to that of a single lamb? Or a million beetles to a cow?

      To me it is naive of non-meat eaters to rationalise their (ideological) beliefs by claiming it reduces animal suffering. Yes, it may reduce big-fat-mammal suffering to an extent. But it does not eliminate it from the overall human-feeding situation. And it may, with some contorted arguing, actually increase it.

      • +1

        This argument sounds correct - but it isn't. Reason being is that livestock are fed crops. In fact, the vast majority of crops grown today are used to produce feed for livestock.

        At the end of the day, not eating meat reduces all suffering, big and small creatures alike.

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