Hi all,
Please excuse my beginner question. I'm a "almost new" to manual driver but have been driving Auto for years as a full licence driver.
My question; when approaching to stop, is it ok to place the transmission/gearbox into neutral so I don't need to hold down the clutch (less than 200-250m and around 20kms)?
I've heard good and bad about doing this but need some input.
Cheers!
Yep, although I rarely am in neutral, always in first with the clutch in ready to go, unless I am at a familiar set of lights where I know I have to wait.
"always in first with the clutch in ready to go,"
Yep, and any small shunt at the back or a huntsman dropping down from the visor and off you go. It's even better if you have your foot on the brakes as well, a-la the S.A. method, as those little rubber diaphragms in your brake system just love the odd bit of constant pressure to keep them in trim and the person behind you can have the warm glow of your brake-lights to keep them company while they wait on dark nights…
Away you go? Having your foot on the clutch and the brake at the lights is the most common thing to do.
Just like an auto.
@smpantsonfire: It is, as is also the ignorance of the purpose of that lever which the U.S. drivers call the 'emergency brake'. To apply that rather than rely on a protocol that fails at the first interruption or distraction would require such onerous tasks as checking the phase of the opposing flow lights and look for slowing traffic and amber lights, assessing the length of the queues and being prepared to keep your attention on the road, rather than a conversation, music track, text message or make-up.
Look at the lights at the adjacent intersection (where they have the green), when they turn orange your turn is next. Does not apply to intersections with dedicated turning lanes as they usually go first.
Disagree on
- Skipping third gear
- Shift into first while still in motion
me too. I can't shift into 1st while I'm using the brakes without pushing the clutch in either.
Oh I missed that. Definitely don't shift gears without clutch in lol
Eh, I don't see the point of shifting into third if I'm coming up to traffic lights with stopped cars in front. Second gear has a big range.
Mixed up my lines, i shift into first with the clutch in and coming to a stop. But never actually engage first.
But really it depends on the situation as to why you are slowing. Slowing on the highway, I would shift through all gears.
They call coasting in neutral, Angel gear, as the car is in the control of angels, as you have no control over it. So just don't do it
I drove manual transmission cars for 11 years and have never heard it being called the Angel Gear.
did a quick google, here is a good one, different meaning than mine though.
https://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=200804141829…
I've been driving for 30 years, and have most certainly heard of this being referred to as 'Angel Gear'.
I'm not sure why people think they lose control of their vehicle when it is in neutral.
Honestly as long as the engine is running you will have full braking and steering. The car should always be under your control and loss of the ability to accelerate should not constitute loss of control.
I would not recommend coasting in neutral but lets not over-dramatise it.
Haha, referring to an above comment about when the Police did the testing: I was asked to do a 3 point turn. I was smart, I reversed into a driveway then drove out in the opposite direction. Wrong! I didn't show how to do a 3 point turn, (but that I could make the car go in the opposite direction). I was then directed to a lane way and was obliged to make a 7 point turn (not so easy, no power steering in Falcons then).
It doesn't pay to be smart. Just do what you are required to do. in your case change down as you slow down, it shows the examiner you know what should be done, and have control of the vehicle at all times.
Reversing into a driveway !!!! SHOCKING !!!!
Front into a driveway, without getting onto the private ground, reverse in the lane that you will go, when going forward. Then go !
Less chances to reverse into a pedestrian on the walkway.
Coasting on neutral isn't recommended. Even though I do it what you should do is:
Use your breaks to slow down the car (whilst in gear)
Engage the clutch
Then when the car has fully stopped you can switch it to neutral
I wouldn't recommending shifting gradually from the gears unless you need the engine break to slow down at a gradual rate without engaging the break ( going downhill slower)
If you keep your car in gear at the traffic stop you'll have more of a time to react. Also it acts like a internet handbreak and stops the car rolling to far if the emergency break fails ( good idea to keep the car in gear when on a steep hill. Gear one downhill + handbreak. Reverse gear uphill + hanbreak)
If you are using your method slowing the car down to a stop in 5th gear is a recipe for problems, stalling (revs too low), additional brake wear (engine is trying to drive you at 5th gear speed) and you'l need to change down to move off again if you don't have to stop.
You should change down to a suitable gear as you slow, and you shouldn't coast to a stop either.
** brakes are for slowing your car. Breaks are for a mechanic to fix.
I dont know you or the additional people that upvoted you but it sounds like old thinking. Why put unnecessary work shifting down gear? If you stall your car before coming to a stop and need to result to downshifting then I would think thats a matter of incompetence. Or are you perhaps showing off with that enlarged exhaust?
Its important to jude traffic. If the lights turned red I dont need to be in gear. If I was slowing down and the lights turned green and the cars infront are moving I wouldve shifting down a gear. Why do you think im labouring the engine by keeping it in a higher gear? We do know the bands of our car. Do you perhaps shift down so you are always in gear for other drivers?
So you are trading breaking for engine break. I know which ill rather replace sooner
The subject has been done to death and the only people I see going for the adage of shifting down to every gear are old timers or young blokes that want to make a nice gear down noise before a stop. To me its sounds like these people were truck drivers back in the day when you needed to gear into neutural to change gears.
Either way is acceptable but one requires more work than the other.
** it's still brake for slowing and break for fixing.(quite possibly the reason for the upvote)
You don't need to change down every gear. Maybe one on most stops.
You have to change down to prevent the engine labouring. Any car I've driven (lots) won't cope with slowing to a stop in the gear I'm in at the speed limit.
The fact that they assess you in the driving test for excessive coasting indicates it's not best practice.
Engine braking will use less fuel than coasting and less brakes. The drivetrain is designed to cope with it.id rather not wear out my brakes, the clutch is designed to last much longer anyway.
"of shifting down to every gear are old timers "
Yep. I always ensure I am in a gear such that if I need to accelerate, I can. That way I am in charge of the vehicle. If the vehicle is coasting, or in such a gear that you either do not have the power to accelerate or no more headroom available, you are no longer in control, merely a passenger with steering rights.
@Euphemistic: some people are taking my coasting thing to literally. I do that only when there's minimal speed 2 secs or less before I need to stop.
For driving test conditions believe me I didn't drive like that. Instructor always taught me to stay in first.
For daily driving I don't wanna clutch in and keep my foot somewhere it doesn't belong. Believe it or not I don't also 10 and 2 my steering wheel. I know I'm a animal
@terrys: believe me I won't have the power to accelerate anywhere when there's 20 cars in front of you bumper to bumper. You guys in the bush somewhere?
@Hahuh: The topic was protocols for a moving vehicle that was slowing - and yes I am. It is called Australia. Try some of the clown protocols described here in Paris, London or Berlin and your trip will not be remembered with glee.
@Hahuh: Sucks to be driving a manual in bumper to bumper traffic. Lucky for me that is a very rare occasion.
It did appear in your first post that you coast… a lot.
I was taught in Qld to
Never coast in neutral, nor hold the clutch to coast.
Always shift down each gear when slowing to a stop, then clutch in as you brake to a complete stop.
Contrary to some comments here, I wasn't taught that holding the clutch down while waiting for the lights is wrong. And I also wasn't taught that shifting to neutral while waiting for the lights is wrong either. So I do either of these depending on how long I think I'll be stationery.
"Always shift down each gear when slowing to a stop" <— So you're going from 6th, to 5th, to 4th, to 3rd, to 2nd, and then neutral at every stop? That's completely unnecessary and wearing your clutch for no purpose. Just coast along in gear and switch to neutral when the revs drop to above stall rpm.
I don't always do it (well I've got an auto now anyways), but yes, that's what I was taught, and by the looks of other comments, that's still the expected way for the exam. Why encourage OP (self proclaimed beginner), to pickup lazy habits so early on?
The benefit? You're always ready to accelerate because you're in the correct gear.
Not sure what you mean by coast along in gear. As you slow, the higher gears will not cope with the slow speed unless you're riding the clutch or switching to neutral before you're at near stop, which is definitely a no no.
No issue with minor clutch-coasting in-between changing gears or holding clutch and brakes while coming to a stop; if you have the opportunity, it is better to downshift to the gear appropriate for the speed/revs (for control), but if you can't, then you've got to do what you've got to do…
You don't want to get caught in neutral in case of some unexpected emergency where you have to move in a hurry. When I drove manual, I would go into Neutral (w/ Handbrake) to give my foot a rest if I was sure that the cars behind me had some to a safe stop but technically that's not the right thing to do.
Engine braking wears the clutch, when it's the disk pads which are INTENDED to be worn, and therefore are much cheaper to replace.
Being in Neutral or having your foot fully pressed on the clutch pedal will not cause any wear on the clutch.
Fuel efficiency Neutral vs In-Gear. Probably negligible, but you can see which one if giving you higher RPMs. Generally at a stop my car will have higher RPMs in Neutral/Idle than in gear, but that could be just my car.
Engine braking doesn't wear the clutch. Slipping the clutch wile changing gears wears it out.
As above having your foot fully depressed on the clutch will increase wear on the thrust bearings.
The overall idea is to make sure the car is in the appropriate gear in case you want to accelerate again. So test it.
If your gear is too high, you will need to immediately change your gear down to accelerate again, this means you've been lazy and kept it in too high of a gear while slowing down.
If your engine brakes, then you shifted down too early.
Dont worry about the "being in control" BS, last time i checked your steering wheel and brakes still work.
If your comfortable putting it in neutral while slowing down, then is ok, but over time this will piss you off because your generally in a lazy mood and if you need to accelerate again you will take extra time waking up and then remembering what gear it needs to go in (you have no "feel" when its in neutral so your brain has to do the work rather than muscle reflex).
Try the following.
1.) Drive around a curve with slight acceleration
2.) Drive around a curve with your foot off the accelerator.
3.0 Drive around a curve then gently brake.
You do accelerate on the bends, but have automated the process as you learned to drive. The matter of 'being in control' is exactly that. Find a hill with a curve, unlock your steering, put the car in neutral then take it for a roll to the bottom…
I think we are talking about slowing down for traffic lights to come to a stop, not driving around and putting it in neutral all the time. With traffic stopped in front, it would be very rare to need to accelerate to avoid an incident, you would probably kill someone (assuming you went up the shoulder)
A lot of misinformation getting about here.
To pass your test (at least when I did it) you were expected to keep the car in gear and clutch depressed while waiting at a stop. This is f—king stupid, but it's the rules.
Why is it f—king stupid? Because in any emergency or panic situation, what's the first thing you're likely to do? Drop the clutch, of course! Suddenly, your car's in gear, you've dropped the clutch, and you've hit the person in front of you, or worse - rolled into oncoming traffic.
Why they teach this habit is beyond me.
That said; NEVER COAST with the car in neutral. Anyone who says you're saving petrol is wrong. Don't shift down to slow to a stop either; this does nothing except save your brake pads at the expense of your clutch. Brake pads are cheap and accessible, clutches most definitely are not.
If you drop the clutch while in gear at a standstill you are most likely to stall the car and possibly lurch forwards a bit. Unlikely to hit another car becuase you'll have a foot on the brake to keep you stopped. You are highly unlikely to 'roll into traffic'
Because in any emergency or panic situation, what's the first thing you're likely to do? Suddenly, your car's in gear, you've dropped the clutch, and you've hit the person in front of you, or worse - rolled into oncoming traffic.
That's a bit of a stretch, I've been rear-ended twice while driving a manual and that didn't happen on either occasion.
At least if the car is in gear and you see the hazard approaching you have half a chance of getting out of the way because you're already in gear, which in my opinion is better than having to try and find 1st after you've realised someone is about to hit you.
That's only ever gonna work if you've got a clear road ahead of you and you happen to notice the hazard approaching from behind which is pretty unlikely combination.
Just like rolling into traffic is only going to happen under a very specific set of unlikely circumstances, you seem to have missed that point ;)
@Gronk: Yeah, but one puts you at more risk, the other provides risk mitigation in a very specific (and unlikely) set of circumstances.
Let's not forget we need to cater to the lowest common denominator here. The safest option is to have the engine disengaged from the driveline on a non-momentary basis.
Yeah, but one puts you at more risk, the other provides risk mitigation in a very specific (and unlikely) set of circumstances.
No… No, see again, you're missing the point. Both the scenario where one rolls into traffic and the one where the driver leaves their vehicle in gear and is able to avoid an accident - they're both 1 percenters and equally unlikely to come to fruition in the real-world.
The safest option is to have the engine disengaged from the driveline on a non-momentary basis.
I think you need to have that argument with the VicRoads licensing division.
@Gronk: I see your point, but if you want a tie-breaker between two equal scenarios (I disagree, it's very easy to accidentally drop the clutch if you're stupid), holding your clutch in causes strain and wear on the clutch diaphragm spring :)
It is quite easy to drop the clutch if you don't know what you're doing, but Automatic transmissions are all but standard now and Manuals are an option so the majority of numpties are driving autos anyway.
Still not 100% convinced, especially if we're talking motorcycles rather than cars, but probably best not to invest any more time in this ;)
@Gronk: Motorcycles would be an entirely different argument; I personally left mine in neutral, but there's definitely arguments for being able to GTFO of someone's way in a hurry there!
"That said; NEVER COAST with the car in neutral. Anyone who says you're saving petrol is wrong. Don't shift down to slow to a stop either"
How are you meant to brake at all then? Handbrake everywhere? :p
Er… apply the brake? :)
so when stopped at traffic would you shift your automatic to neutral and stop holding the break?
What the grantee that you will not move your right foot and only move your left foot in an emergency?
manual cars are more likely to stall when clutch is released suddenly while automatics are most likely to roll forward when break is released.
Get your fact right mate.
No, I wouldn't, but think of the average person, then realise that half the population is stupider than that.
How many morons who obviously find driving a challenge do you encounter in any given day?
When you release the clutch, the engine and driveline are mechanically coupled regardless of the transmission. An auto will slowly roll forward; a manual will lurch forward if brakes not sufficiently applied.
Don't take it personally mate…?
Down one notch on the gear when you are able to slow down usually 2 unless you are almost at walking speed then neutral is fine
There was a massive thread in the forum of the car club i ise to be in and we it came down to.
There is no scientific proof that coasting to a stop at slow speed causes issue nor if you have the clutch disengaged and coast to a stop nor gearing down in the lifetime of the car.
I have done it in many ways when i feel like it but as for doing the practical lisence test in a manual car then you need to play it by the book to know the correct way.
Don't coast mate, that's amateur.
Then for bonus points learn to dos change without the clutch. It helps if you can practice with an underpowered work ute with about 300,000kms on it
Leave the car in gear as long as possible, and only press the clutch when you're changing gears. Coasting in neutral uses more fuel than coasting in gear.
Not if you turn the ignition off too. Be careful of steering wheel lock though
Haha, yeah that sounds safe.
Do it all the time. Stealth mode.
Most cars I have driven dated later than 1991 have had mechanisms to make turning the ignition key to the lock position a deliberative act…
mate I skip 'lock' and go straight to 'off'. What do you mean by deliberative? How can turning a key be anything but deliberative?
@jenkemjunkie: Some require the key to be pushed further to pass a 'gate' to the steering lock position, Toyota and Mitsis have a button that needs to be depressed and one piece of Korean kit that I won't be re-visiting need the transmission to be in park. The condition the deliberative relates to was "turning the key to the lock position'.
Ahh I don't have that problem. I just tell people my car is electric when it coasts by without making a noise. Woosh
@jenkemjunkie: LOL. I wonder how " I didn't notice the engine was off officer, I usually take my Rolls" would go down…
i coast to a stop all the time. i'd rather my engine be idling than engine braking i guess. thats the only time i coast though.
Why? Your engine is built to engine brake.
What? That's both a waste of petrol and likely unnecessary wear on your brakes.
pads are cheap.
Assuming you replace them vigilantly.
It also depends on your car.
I'm typically 6th gear at 60km/h, then usually downshift to 3rd while slowing to a stop.
By the time I need to shift to 2nd/1st, I'm basically 3m from stopping anyway so I go straight to neutral.
I find the gear on 2nd so high that I'm really blipping the accelerator a lot to rev match.
Yeah I know, there may be a one in a million chance I might need to be in gear for that extra second, but to be honest I would probably just smash the brake as a reflex anyway.
what sort of car do you have that typically allows 6th gear at 60klm? It would basically on idle..
Nah the new Korean cars with a 6 speed are pointles! Still cruises at 3,000 at 100 in 6th. What's the point of having it.
Focus ST. 6th on flat / slight down slope road, engine doesn't labour at all. No turbo either.
Don't coast in neutral, car control goes out the window. Don't keep your foot on the clutch, you will wear out the thrust bearing prematurely. It's all about smooth operation and understanding what is happening inside.
Try not to jam gears in, place slight pressure in the gear direction you want to take and it will nearly suck the gearstick in.
Best advice I was taught for driving manual. Learn how to change gears without using a clutch then use the same technique while returning to using the clutch. You can skip the throttle blip on the downshift unless you want people staring at you.
experience: Own from new an '07 swift 160k kms still with original clutch and one brake pad change. Also blown 3 gearboxes and a handful of clutches driving like an idiot in my younger years.
" Learn how to change gears without using a clutch"
Easy on the old Holden red motor vehicles, but I recently got a 94 Magna that turns heads - and the only vehicle I have had made between 1939 to 2001 that wouldn't start of happily in 2nd when not towing a loaded trailer and facing uphill, and needs care, thought and time before downshifting to first.
a thrust bearing should do at least 250-300km no problem, by then clutch would most likely be slipping and need to be replaced regardless.
one of my old cluckers has 700,000k on it and still uses factory thrust bearing and fork etc, only thing that has changed was the clutch. Bearing was still mint so it didn't get changed.
Don't worry about all that granny shifting. You should be learning heel-toe and double clutch shifting
Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cbZlhduYJY (gah this video doesn't answer the question but it does answer other questions you might have, I'll see if I can find the right one)
Its simple
As the OP wants to save his clutch - being the ozbargainer he is.
Don't change gears. Changing gears wears out the clutch
No need to depress clutch.
No need to replace clutch
Problem solved.
OP saved his clutch, but went through four sets of brake pads and two sets of discs.
You don't need to wear your clutch in the process, just get more effective at changing gears.
But yes, brakes are cheaper than a clutch.
if op is worried about his clutch, just flat shift at rev limiter, it will go in without the use of the clutch!
get out and push?
I went from 10 years as an automatic driver then went onto a manual car.
If I'm approaching a stop (last 10-15 metres), I'll change down from say, 5th to 4th, then to 3rd then neutral. If traffic moves, whilst I'm still in neutral, I'll change to whatever gear is appropriate (usually 2nd) to accelerate. There this was channel on youtube that I watched before I got my car to "learn" manual and there was some interesting points - look up smurfinwrx if you have the chance.
2nd? are you driving a van or something?
No, I drive a fiesta st. Should've clarified. If I'm still moving slightly (under 20km), I'll change direct to 2nd, otherwise if I'm close to a standstill.
I usually engine brake in that scenario, so I am always in gear.
You will always want to be in gear, in case you need to accelerate again for emergency and have one less thing to worry about.
Holding the clutch in while driving is what we used to call 'riding the clutch' and is not safe at all. While slowing down, if you leave it in gear, the car will actually slow down quicker; quicker again if you're in a lower gear. As soon as you push on the clutch pedal, it disengages the engine from the wheels and you'll feel the 'free-roll' which means you now have less control over the wheels.
This is especially pronounced if you drive around a corner while riding the clutch compared to leaving the car in gear. If riding the clutch around a corner, you will actually feel the suspension of the car become unsettled and you'll get more body roll towards the outside of the corner.
There is minimal wear of the clutch in normal driving situations anyway, the most significant wear on a clutch is trying to accelerate really hard while changing gears, the clutch will have to match a higher revving crank which can cause it to burn away (most people's 'burnouts' that you smell is actually clutch if they're inexperienced drivers).
As for fuel saving, when the car goes into neutral, the engine has to idle which will use a little bit of fuel. During braking though, the car actually does not use any fuel at all until the revs of the engine would normally drop below 1500rpm in which time the engine will go back into idle mode.
You should be down shifting as a method to slow down and come to a stop. Never ride the clutch. You haven't truely learnt to drive a manual until you are forced to drive without a clutch … nearly impossible in city driving but you fast learn how your engine and drive train mesh.
If the car is in neutral then you have no power to the wheels. Why would you want that when you're still moving? You can't react to a dangerous situation or event occurring.
If you're gonna coast a little bit then do it with the clutch down and not in neutral.
Agree, you shouldn't be coasting in neutral, ever! If you need to suddenly accelerate the natural reaction will be to hit the gas pedal which will of course do nothing.
After participating in this thread (probably too much) I thought about my driving this morning while on my way to work. I used a combination of changing down sometimes and coasting at other times (clutch out, in neutral). Mostly change down though, it is better unless you are completely stopping as you are ready to accelerate away after the corner etc.
So you slow down. Clutch in gear down clutch out. Then clutch in gear down clutch up rinse and repeat.
Do you mind telling me where you learnt that. The ages range of people who taught you. And your current age. Also what car you drive. Yes I think there's a link
Depending on the situation I'll drop down one change or two. Maybe from 5th-3rd-2nd or 5th-4th-2nd or 5th-3rd or 4th-2nd, but my ute will pull away from quite low revs fairly happily. I've ever gone 5-4-3-2-1 to slow down on rare occasions to see if I can slow down enough without braking. It depends on the car what gear changes I use. Sometimes 5th-neutral if it is a short distance to stop.
There is no rule that says you need to go up or down by one gear at a time, sometimes you can skip one or two.
Ofcourse. I downshift quite often from say 4th to second depending on the revs and how fast im travelling. Im not disputing that. This is a bit more clear. It sounded to me you often would descend gears 5-4-3-2-1 every time you stopped. But it sounds like you do an additional step by engine breaking an interim gear which I do not do unless I need to engine break and roll the car.
Is it OK? Yes, no harm will come to the car from doing this.
Is it good to do? IMO, no. It's a little dangerous as you've reduced your control over the movement of the car.
downshifting when a traffic light has gone red? frick that, from any gear into neutral, least effort is always the way
With the fact that you are new to manual, it's probably not OK as you are developing a really bad habit (and will be dangerous especially if you are going downhill).
I learned to drive (and used to drive) manual cars, but has been driving automatic for a while now (just lazy).
As with driving in general, you want to develop all the good habits (especially if you have just moved to manual).
One of the things that my dad taught me years ago was to never go into neutral when the car is coasting down.
Being in-gear actually helps you to control the speed of the car. Neutral means that you only have the rake to slow the car. From my experience, a combination of the gears and brake is more reliable in slowing the car down.
my advice is not to do it for now until you get very very comfortable with it. I know that i used to put the car on neutral prior to braking every now and then for fun (driving can be very boring).
lmao not one of these threads again
any movement on parts will generate wear, clutches are cheap, gearboxes are not
You may need to accelerate quickly to avoid an accident, it's best to keep your car in a gear appropriate to the speed you are traveling.
Remember when takumi pressed the clutch and double shifted into first to do skids in the downhill without using much oil¿ that would of worn out his engines rings and wore out his clutches
Agreed. I've been driving manual for 8 years and that's pretty much how I do it.