Should we Ban Xiaomi Phones from being Advertised on OzBargain?

In light of unawareness in the Ozbargain Community of preinstalled Adware inside Xiaomi Phones.

I will present an argument to ban or at least require posts to have a disclaimer on the Adware features in the Official Global Roms.

Undoubtedly lots of Xiaomi Wumao team have been paid to downvote my previous posts even after I have provided core evidence of the adware behaviour.

Proof that there is adware embedded into the core features of the Security App. This is not due to a vendor ROM being installed.

Ever seen that notification that the trash is 357 MB full or something? Once you clean the trash, you will see the ads. So it is not like it doesn't want you to view the ads or that it is hidden well enough that a normal user won't see the ads.

Inside the Downloads App there are also ads that appear but require you to have at least some apps downloaded before they appear. (Tap Three Ellipsis -> Settings -> Content settings -> "Note that Show recommended content is on by default". Turn this off.

Inside the Menu where you can change the name of your Folders on the home screen, there may also be promoted apps ads that popup. There is a guide to remove this.

A lot of this has only started recently in MIUI 8, so once you update to the latest patch to acquire the latest "Android Security Patches", you will then start to gain other unscrupulous modifications which would not have existed in previous versions of the Official Global Rom.

You might also think that because you don't see it during your normal use that it is not there. In fact it has always been there, and you probably have no idea what it is doing in the background, if anything at all.

You deserve the truth. Now judge the issue based on the facts and not opinion please.

Definition of Adware:
Software that automatically displays or downloads advertising material (often unwanted) when a user is online.

Poll Options

  • 93
  • 269
    Not Ban
  • 278
    Not Ban but Require Compulsory Disclaimer
  • 71
    I Just want to Vote(Candy Option)


      • I didn't say the stock was bad but with lineageOS 14.1 there are more advantages than the stock for me because it looks more like nexus/pixel phone. One of the biggest advantages is the battery easily can last 2 days with normal usage. They only problem for me is the camera not that good.

        I am happy to record some video of the performance if you are interested :)

        • Like i staited i used them all and its nothing like the original apart from looks
          Battery, reception nothing like the original
          But what ever makes us happy :)

  • +1

    I had a serious think about this. The thing is, most of us already recommend that you flash the default MiU anyway. In the end the kindle was adsupported, and we didnt need to say that it had ads.

    The fact that theyve done this with an upgrade is the naughtiest aspect.

    • I have the Note 4G. No adds.
      My son bought a huawei, and it is all but unusable due to adds.

  • Lots of free apps posted on this site are ad supported. Does that mean we have to ban them too?

    • -1

      < free app with ads
      < paid phone with ads

      • Spot on… Who pays hundreds of dollars for a phone that has ads?

        pj228 does.

        • -1

          What you two conveniently fail to mention is that Xiaomi sells $300 phones with specs that other manufacturers sell for $700. I cant attest to whether or not Xiaomi make good phones or if indeed they have ads since I do not own one. However, if they do have ads, perhaps thats how they subsidize the $400 difference.

        • -1

          < Revenue model
          < disclosure problem

        • -1


          It WOULD be fine if they said "We'll give you a phone for much cheaper but you'll have to deal with ads".

          Then you can make an informative choice.

  • +3

    In the time you spend responding and hating, you could have put the phone up for sale and buy another Android phone.

    Xiaomi are cheap for a reason and they're selling the phone at such a low cost that they have to put ads. There are so many choices out there.

    Move on, less hate & your life will be easier…

    Edit: I should ban Ozbargain too. They're displaying too much ads for my liking :p

    • Edit: I should ban Ozbargain too. They're displaying too much ads for my liking :p

      You can block ads entirely by going to My Account - Edit - Account and selecting No Ads under Banner ads. You may also select to be served text ads instead of image ads.

      • Btw, I'm just using Ozb as an example… doesn't mean I'm going to ban it. :D

    • Ozbargain isn't paid though. Or is it?

      Literally the apps with the lowest ratings on the Google Play Store are those that require payment and then continue to show ads.

      • OzBargain is a free and independent site. No company or person pays Ozbargain for any posts/comments/whatever.

        See FAQ.

        • What about the ads we see on Ozbargain? Free ads platform on OzBargain?

        • You can turn off the ads per the instructions above for free. Ads are managed by Publift who mostly serve ads via the Google ads platform.

  • Wait are you talking about "Advertising" or "Posting"? Advertising on this site is determined by the site owners and is used to fund the site, the ads seem to be mostly provided by Google. You basically have zero chance of trying to 'ban' ads from a particular product on a free site that is paid for by ads… If you mean 'posting' then there are posting guidelines for the bargain posts and also a forum where you can go vent and begin discussions if you feel a particular product is not performing up to your moral standards. I don't see any reason to ammend these posting guidelines.

    There's a lot of junk posted/advertised on Ozbargain, why should these phones be treated any differently? Almost every single "Freebie" that is posted has some mechanism where you hand over personal information in exchange for being a potential advertising target. All the credit card reward points programs that are so popular are basically tracking tools used to market products to you.

    • When it says "freebie", in fact it's not as your PI is now worth money in these businesses.

      I would accept the ads appearing if they give us free to use as they would earn from the ads.

  • No ads on my Note 4

  • +1

    Should probs ban LG and Samsung phones cause they have exploitable built in backdoors that let you take complete control of the phone

    • +1

      This is true. Note 7 is the perfect example. Samsung pushed updates to brick the phone.

  • Then you should ban each and every china phone. Personally, that little ad (if you can even call it that) doesnt bother me

  • +2

    We have 3 Xiaomi phones in our household now - everyone's happy with them

    A (nearly) fully specced 3/32GB, 4G phone with a great display and decent camera that does everything I require of it for $200? Yes please!

  • +3

    Just ban all Chinese phones then.

    Xiaomi are the least of the worries, I bought a ulefone for lols last year and it was uploading every image taken with the camera to an FTP server in China.

  • This wont stick. The Mi Army will downvote it to hell.

  • +5

    +1 for OP effort even if nobody cares. Its sad but rest assured at least I am grateful for the info.

  • Is there a step-by-step guide to remove adware from the Mi4c phone I bought a while back in this deal: ?

    • +1

      Try uninstall apps which Xiaomi installed but you don't actually need (or to be honest, uninstall as many of Xiaomi apps as possible - some you do need though, otherwise you won't get battery usage chart for example). I suggest you start with any Keyboard apps installed by Xiaomi. Use Google keyboard instead (assuming you get Google Play Store working).

      What I found (read my other comment below) is that Mi4c MIUI 7 is a lot better, less bloatware, Google apps don't crash randomly and Play Store doesn't have the glitches MIUI 8 ROMs have. I was hoping the latest MIUI 8 (now with Android N) would fix most, if not all of the issues I have, but not only Chrome still crashes randomly, Play Store is now even worse. In an attempt to fix Play Store, I think I made it worse. I got really fed up and downgraded to MIUI 7 (I already have unlock approved by Xiaomi for my phone running MIUI8). Also, I bricked my phone before trying to root MIUI 8 (no such problem with MIUI 7). I needed to unlock my phone to flash ROM from fastboot mode.

      • Turns out I have MIUI I found a couple of keyboard apps (Kika, TouchPal 2017) but there's no uninstall option. What do you reckon the best course of action is?

        • From memory, it was possible for me to uninstall both from Settings, Installed apps, All apps. Try the Mi AppStore as well. I found that initially, those apps were updated, uninstall the updates actually stopped those stupid ads (but then you will need to figure out a way to stop them from being updated again). I did install Google Keyboard first and set the keyboard to that one.

          The last resort is to get the phone unlocked (takes a while to get the code from Xiaomi), then flash it with either the latest version (which have Google Play Store issues) or go back to MIUI 7 ( or other custom firmware. However, simply upgrade to them won't work because upgrade retains all apps.

          Don't try to root the phone (because all the instructions I can find on the Web are actually for MIUI 7 ROM). I tried them on MIUI 8 and I bricked the phone every single time (had to wait for the unlock code the first time I bricked it, flash the ROM from fastboot mode). That's one of the issues I have with MIUI 8. I cannot root it so it was not possible to gain full control of the phone.

  • WengerOut

  • it shows on my phone too .. running AND 6.0.1

  • No ad on mine

  • +2

    Have two Xiaomi phones. First one came with MIUI7 and was unlocked (not officially). It worked well so I bought another one. That one came with MIUI8.

    MIUI8 on that phone (phone is locked this time) did display ads constantly. It was to do with one of the keyboard apps installed. Once uninstalled, those ads went away. It took me a while to find out it was the keyboard app.

    The biggest issue I have with Xiaomi MIUI8 is that the latest ROM seems to have issues with both Google Chrome and Play Store. Google chrome just crashes randomly. Play Store, I was not able to download using mobile data, had to download using wifi initially. However, the latest ROM (which has Android N) made it worse. I cannot install new apps (keeps on saying waiting for wifi). Updating apps and install previously purchased apps work most of the time. Chrome still crashes.

    It is quite frustrating. Xiaomi phones, hardware/price wise, appear to be good value for money. However, if you were like me, bought a lot of apps from Google Play Store (through those OZB deals posted) and you like to use Chrome, then MIUI8 is a real pain.

    I actually downgraded the ROM to MIUI7 (it was time consuming to find the files I need to do that). There are other quirks with MIUI8 (especially if the phone you have doesn't have global ROM - i.e. mi4c). I am assuming Global ROM would have working Google Play Store installed.

    I think it is fine to post Xiaomi phones on OZB. Just need to let people know that depending on the firmware you get, it will either be a smooth experience or one with many minor issues. Essentially, the issue is that some of the Xiaomi phones are designed for Chinese market, where getting Google apps to run is not important at all (I think Chinese government putting a lot of restrictions on Google services).

    • if you can't download the apps from Play store/ any other source for that matter because it keeps saying waiting for wifi, it's because the rom is setup default with mobile data restriction.
      head to 'Download" app -> 3 dots -> 'Settings' -> 'Downloading using mobile data is restricted" change to unlimited.
      Baffled me at first also.

      • Yes, that needs to be set to download via mobile data. However, the issue I am having with the latest version of ROM is that apps won't download even with wifi turned on and running. Wifi is working (I can browse the Web), but when I want to install a new app from Google Play, it says waiting for wifi. Oddly enough, if I picked Update an app, that worked (but I do have to cancel all the new app installs which are showing waiting for wifi). This wasn't an issue with the previous version of the ROM.

        I could get the APK files and install manually, but since I bought those apps, I really want to use Google Play Store to install. It just seems to me that with the last few updates, compatibility with Google apps gets worse. I waited for the latest update for a while, hoping they would resolve Chrome crashing issue, not only it wasn't fixed, Google Play Store now starts to play up as well.

        Rolled back to MIUI7 based ROM. It is simpler in terms of features, but less buggy.

  • +1

    I uploaded a nude selfie to the MiCloud and the very next day I was bombarded with ads for penis enlargement. If this is the future of artificial intelligence, then I'm going to be broke.

    • +2

      I saw it… Big enough to make money IMO.

  • +3

    I was just about to buy a Xiaomi Redmi Note 3 on eBay today except my offer was declined. Lucky for me I didn't. Never Xiaomi for me after hearing this and seeing the evidence for myself!
    Im sticking with Samsung

  • Ads - the issue with ads on MIUI8 is that the app which shows the ads display the ad on top of the screen (even on lock screen) which is quite annoying. Since it is a free app, it wants to make money from ads. Honestly, Google actually display ads based on your browsing history and what you searched. It's just that those ads are often part of the Web pages so we tend to tolerate them.

    With Xiaomi phones, as long as you get rid of all of the bloatware properly and you don't actually have many paid apps on Google then it is all fine. For me, the issue with various Google apps is a big problem. To be fair, I think Google is also responsible. If your phone doesn't come with Google Play Store installed, there is no official way to install it and incorrect mix of Google apps can render the Play Store unusable. Apple also had issue with certain versions of iOS 7 in which the AppStore has glitches (Apple never fixed it, since they don't want you to run iOS 7 —> upgrade to latest, even if that slowed down your phone a bit).

    It is really unfortunate, because Xiaomi has double tap to wake (need to turn it on from Settings, Display), flip case to wake up the phone (a lot of decent / cheap 3rd party cases) and lots of other little goodies. Price is also quite reasonable.

  • +1

    OP has a fair post and is alerting us all to a possible adware/spyware problem. I'm using a xiaomi device right now and while I don't experience and issues described (I'm on 7), I don't discount the experience or concern. As mentioned previously Sony has a root kit. Lenovo had issues. My Korean mobile phone has crapware to phone home. It isn't unique to Xiaomi but perhaps big companies looking for ways to make more money while collating more data. Tin foil hats for all.

  • Redmi Note 4 with 16 months of use and many versions of MiUi later and no ads anywhere or any issues.

  • I agree with OP, therefore we should also ban Microsoft, Intel and AMD.
    Proof ? Poof here they are

  • +1

    If you are buying a Xiaomi phone IMO you should be aware of the adware that is coming with it.
    As others have mentioned it's not hard to get a new mod on your phone and the instructions are easy to follow.
    I had the same issue when i got my Xiaomi late last year (which came with the original MIUI software). I felt it was too bloated with extra stuff and i much preferred a pure android experience and got the Cyanogenmod (now Lineage OS) mod for the phone. No adware since and the phone has worked a treat. For less than AUD120 for a phone i'm not complaining, even if it lasts a few years.
    I understand how this debate could go both ways, and you can also extrapolate this information to other manufacturers potentially. So sky is the limit i suppose in terms of you ban this manufacturer, might as well make a list banning more and more manufacturers. I'll vote for keeping these products on for now, because i think it's consumer awareness that plays a big part in choosing the right product for themselves and weighing the pros and cons of buying any product. Most on this forum go above and beyond when it comes to do research/asking questions to others, so i feel we are more than educated to choose the products that best suit us.

  • You might also think that because you don't see it during your normal use that it is not there. In fact it has always been there, and you probably have no idea what it is doing in the background, if anything at all.

    Welcome to the Twilight Zone.

  • And Windows 10 wants Cortana to report everything you say back to Microsoft. Should we ban Win 10 devices? Which is worse, a few ads or being bugged?

  • +1

    This argument doesn't hold much weight. By this same argument Youtube, Facebook and many 'free' games would be considered adware. Many laptops (cheaper ones too) come with trial versions (could be considered spyware). So No, Xiaomi doesn't really warrant special mention either way.

    • +1

      Person with a Mi5 experiencing the ads too.

      It shouldn't be there in a $A200-400+ phone. Which mainstream phone has ads inbuilt that cannot be easily removed on the stock image? Sure some have bundled apps which have ads, but what I'm talking about is an app that runs in the background all the time and tells you the trash (cache) is above a certain amount and to clear it [your reward after doing the task, is an advertisement]. That isn't acceptable in my opinion.

      It is probably even there in the Mi6 because apparently that is only on the China Stable Rom, which means they automatically get the most advertisements.

      Facebook and Youtube are free, so cannot really compare that to a paid product. In fact in the Google Play Store, paid apps with ads have some of the lowest ratings. Townsmen Premium is one of those dodgy apps where you pay for the app but continue to see ads. These have poor reviews because the community hates this kind of thing. Likewise on stock android images most people can just use the browser and ublock origin, or install kodi and use the youtube addon to lose the ads without doing much to the underlying system if they are not confident with rooting, flashing and so on. The average consumer isn't going to flash the, ResurrectionRemix, and others, especially if they lose SafetyNet…

      I don't really use Windows 10 these days, but to get the drivers to work during reflash, I had to install it inside a Virtual Machine. God, the first thing I saw was the awful Candy Crush ad inside the Start Menu because it was not yet activated.

      Which brings me to this:

      I literally just had to mount the image in Debian to analyse the rom files. I think for those who want to do the same with windows, you'll need additional tools. I didn't even realise this before I posted my findings… I should apologise in advance. There are also a lot of other claims which many might believe to be unverified. I cannot provide a source each and every time, but you can go use Google and search for it. It is all there, including stuff I have read and re-used. I have tried my best to insert a new link every time I see it is different. You'll need to revisit each link I have posted, as to get the full story…

      Sorry guys ;-(. It's a complex issue; there is a lot of content. I'm not sure how to condense it properly without discarding chunks of material.

      • I'm on Mi Max with Miui 8.2 China Stable rom but I don't see any ads.
        From reading the comments & forums, seems like the issue is there if you're logged into the Mi account (which I'm not).
        Maybe try logging out of Mi account and see if that makes a differece?

    • Yeah but how about paying hundreds of dollars for those services - would you want ads then?

  • Geez.. OP clearly needs tinfoil.
    I have 2x xiaomi phones, I haven't seen 1/2 an ad in there.
    However… a lot of chinese resellers, change the ROM on the phones, for an international one, with crapware on it. and it happens with all brands..
    This is no fault of the manufacturer, but ONLY the reseller.

    get your facts straight.

    • It depends on when you bought your Xiaomi phones and which ROM was put on.
      For me, same model phone, one with MIUI 7 (no annoying pop up ads). The new one (from same seller) came with MIUI 8 (pop up ads).

      As for you haven't seen ad. Well, if you visited OZB on your phone, you would have seen ads. They are just on the side and not too intrusive. The ads people are referring to are the ones that one of the apps puts on top of the screen regardless of which app you run. It even shows on lock screen. Very annoying.

      Not ruling out it is isolated to some of the Xiaomi phones, but what OP wrote is definitely happening to quite a few users. Also, the way Xiaomi implementing new ROM and not care about any issue with Google apps is not a good sign. Like I mentioned in my comment above, if you get a good ROM, you will have good experience, but some of the ROMs are really bad. The time I wasted on my second Xiaomi phone makes me wonder whether it is really worth it. Some of the instructions people put on can be only applicable to older ROM versions and if you attempted those steps on latest ROM, you could very well brick the phone.

      When using official / latest Xiaomi ROM, I have issues getting Google apps to run properly. That cannot possibly be a reseller issue. To be fair to those resellers, if they received MIUI 8 phones from Xiaomi, it is quite hard to downgrade them to MIUI 7 (you need official unlock from Xiaomi).

  • +3

    Adware is embedded into the roms. You can verify by extracting the rom files and using a simple text editor such as Notepad++. This is independent to any phone's custom configuration on the Official Global Roms.

    Ads seem to be randomly activated amongst users from what I can see myself. I haven't found any code suggesting otherwise.

    Ads are preloaded even if they aren't presented to the end user. A quick comparison to this is certain web developers using the 1x1 pixel trick to hide ads but claim the revenue. This isn't that problematic except when on low data plans. It could be problematic for advertisers which ultimately drives up the cost of advertising and the cost of ordinary goods (economics 101). This might trigger more advertisers to invest in intrusive ads if ad impressions are not translating to sales. I would regard this as basically a form of click fraud.

    Apparently there are headlines which are pushed. I couldn't confirm this, but suspect headlines might not be headlines but possibly ads much like the ones that state "Local teenager becomes millionaire", "Mother works from home and earns 65k", i.e. Sponsored News Articles. I didn't find it in my testing so, I think we can just strike this off for now.

    In other news, WeChat has been placed on Russia's register of prohibited websites Roskomnadzor.

    Nothing new that we didn't already know.

    For current Xiaomi users, change the Region to Russia for the least ads if you are experiencing any issues. I would probably not recommend Xiaomi for the foreseeable future. If you want a phone, you could pay an extra $50-100 for the equivalent specs. If you want ads to subsidise your phone, I would recommend standalone app like Slidejoy to subsidise your usage. In all honesty, I wouldn't recommend that either unless one was really desperate to save cash, but at least I can state that it doesn't have access to as many permissions… I am merely using this as an example to the fact we should be able to choose to subsidise our phones ourselves, not to have it done beforehand and then have no method to actually remove it. I think we all believe an adphone is not really a bargain.

    The ads seem to be targetted as well, so if you have been browsing explicit sites, you will get explicit ads from what I can see from other people's complaints. Luckily I don't have this problem as I mostly browse educational sites, notably they gave me ads regarding to TAFE. lol. This means there is something in the background which is able to vaccum up the sites you have visited in the past and give targeted ads. Since Ozbargainers are very picky about privacy; I would have thought they would be against any such anti-privacy measures implemented in the MIUI system because people keep posting that they would generally use fake details when signing up for freebies.

    Again I make clear that these are my opinions and recommendations about the MIUI system. You can disregard it if you don't really care about it. Yes, there are also third parties involved, but the mere fact it is in the core heart of the MIUI system is quite worrying.

    • Microsoft are pushing adverts for their products in Windows. Ubuntu copped flack for Unity's Amazon connection. Apple push interest based adverts in their app store. Sony, Samsung and HTC push adverts on their Android ROMs.

      Why are you so concerned about Xiaomi?

      • +1

        Paid product, but agreed, the Play Stores are a bit different though, because they by definition have to show you ads to show you the product… Although, currently Google pushes to the top ads like Wifi Master Key which people have rallied against under the concept, "It steals my wifi password". I think there is a fine line with that, as that is somewhat immersive content, whilst the ads I see with Xiaomi are just in your face and don't really blend into the app.

        No disclosure is my main issue with this, in fact everyone keeps stating just flash the Official Rom and there won't be any ads.

        That's the problem…

        Literally see below…

        The Official Rom has ads… Yet people are still pushing "flash the Official Rom".

  • Just ensure you put the global ROM on or that the phone you're purchasing has one readily available.

    Avoid buying from Gearbest (last two xiaomi phones had ads) and buy from reputable places such as vickmall

  • +2

    Without being too negative monitoring is so prevalent it is more of a irritation than a deal breaker. Ads are the same in my mind. Pretty pointless getting upset about which governments are monitoring you because so many are. You are of no interest most of the time unless you annoy someone with influence. Most interest is in affecting your purchasing choices and your vote at times. Apart from those aspects most people are of little interest to anyone most of the time. Privacy and freedom was sold to pay for our security long ago.

    • +1

      Yes, agreed. ;-(

  • I'm not going to take either side on this one, but I will add, the first thing I tend to do when flashing a new ROM is install "adaway" APK. If others are also doing the same it might explain why they never see the ads being referred to. I'm guessing any other adblock software that modifies the host file should have the same effect.

  • Is it possible to put Samsung TouchWiz onto your Mi phone?

    • +2

      Why though. Touchwhiz is not that good..

  • Doink

  • I don't have Promoted Apps on my MIUI8.

  • +3

    lot of confusion on this thread.
    it's been known for some time that chinese sellers flash their own dodgy roms to make a buck with advertising.
    not the fault of the manufacturers.

    if you don't want this, ensure that your phone has a global rom from the seller, and if it comes with crapware, flash a clean rom yourself it's not that difficult)

    for the ultimate in cleanliness, flash LineageOS if available.

    Xiaomi Chinese roms are full of junk, there is no reason to use them.

    global roms work well, have no issues with play services, and have no ads..

    • Ever since Xiaomi phones were available to the global market people have known this. You have to do essentially zero research to not know about this.

  • +1

    People didn't know this? Why do you think everyone flashes them as soon as they get them? If you aren't tech savvy, don't buy international phones, go down to your local Telstra and drop trou.

  • I don't care to be honest. This brand is on the cheaper end for smart phones. If I am buying a cheaper smart phone, I would have very low expectations and would not be too phased by a few ads floating around. You seem to really care about this issue. Sell your phone and buy a different brand.

  • It has long been a known issue, which has generated a lot of complaints in China. At the end of the day, we get what we paid for - top hardware at 50% of the cost = nice phone infected with ads.
    I think people have the right to know that MIUI contains ads, before they hit the pay button.

  • +1

    I love Xiaomi mi Max, fast, cheap and no adware… and i love the Chinese government. You got no problem if speak out against them.

  • +1

    I have a MiMax with global rom (purchased in Singapore) and confirm that the add does download when you use the Security app to empty trash… but how is this any different to the other phones (eg Asus Zenfone Max) which come with bloatware which can't be removed and also have adds built into the bloatware?

  • I've tried to get these ads, but I just can't get them on my Redmi Note 3 on MIUI8. Tried trash/deep clean, nothing. I bought from a barely reputable seller on AliExpress, got them to leave the stock Chinese Rom, flashed the Official Global Rom when I received it. Bought in June last year and do all of the OTA updates. What am I doing wrong?

  • i'd rather ban all the dumbass threads

  • I voted Not Ban. Now that I am a Wumao, how do I get Xiaomi to pay me?

  • Welcome to the jungle pal, Adware, Spying is embedded in our lives.

    Download WhatsApp or Microsoft Word o your mobile and you'd realise it needs access to your contacts, media, identity, phone history, etc.

    • Pretty much 3/4 of the apps from the playstore asks for it

      • And unfortunately there's no way to opt out of it. If you press Deny, they will claim they can't function without it, and will just ask for your permission again next time.

  • I have 4 xiaomi phones across the family.

    no adware on any of the phones…

    and now down voting you, because I can.

  • Had a few Xiaomi. No ads or bloatware what so ever. Guess you might have got a bad software version from a bad seller (or been looking at too much porn).

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