Ducted Gas Heating Vs Panel Heater

wau2 on 14/06/2017 - 13:56

Hi

So we recently had a little one and bought a panel heater (2000w) to keep his room at a constant temperature at night. Does the job well and his pretty warm especially in the cold winter months. Unfortunately, because it works well, the missus now wants one in our room as well.
I have ducted gas heating around the house (when its on it heats the whole house as its a single story), and the missus doesnt want to get out of bed to turn it on.

I'm putting on my ozbargain hat and trying to say its cheaper to run gas ducted heating then a panel heater.

Can i have support? Or am I am wrong?

Home & Garden

Comments

  • geek001 on 14/06/2017 - 14:00
    +6

    Show her who's boss by getting out of bed and turning it on yourself. :)

  • airzone on 14/06/2017 - 14:11
    +6

    Hello jaw-dropping power bill.

  • ExtraSalt on 14/06/2017 - 14:30

    Panel heaters are extremely cheap to run…..if you want to keep it on overnight to keep your bedroom warm, Panel heating smashes Ducted..IF you want the whole house done, obviously ducted is cheaper because gas is cheaper than electricity…..lets be clear, you are talking about panel (radiant) heaters not oil/column or fan heaters?

    PM me if you have questions

    • [Deactivated] on 14/06/2017 - 15:04
      +1

      How do you figure a panel heater is cheaper to run? I would've though watt for watt, all electric space heaters (fan forced, oil column, etc) cost a similar amount to run. The main benefit of a panel heater is that it's safer.

      • ExtraSalt on 14/06/2017 - 18:56

        You can't compare a panel heater to a fan forced or oil heater…true they both use elecriticy, but they are completely different in how they were designed to be used. Get a reputable brand and you could find some running at 10c/hr or thereabouts. All its literally doing is taking in the cold air from your room and passing it through a heating element

        • wau2 on 14/06/2017 - 19:15

          I have a noirot 2000w one. I hope it's that cheap! Waiting for my next electricity bill

        • ExtraSalt on 14/06/2017 - 20:03

          @wau2: that's a good brand. You'll have a thermostat inbuilt into it so it won't be running all night anyway. On high it'd cost anywhere between 40-50c/hr, but if it's a closed off bedroom, it's hard to see it being anymore than 20-40% of its power

        • [Deactivated] on 14/06/2017 - 21:08

          You can't compare a panel heater to a fan forced or oil heater

          Huh? That's the whole point of this thread to compare them. Of course you can compare them … it comes down to energy consumption and dollars.

          The simple fact is that panel heats aren't superior to any other electric space heater. Think about it, if panel heaters were genuinely superior, why isn't the whole world switching over? Why the manufacturers and governments doing a better job of touting their benefits? The benefits of panel heaters aren't in efficiency - they're in functionality, ie wall mount, warm to touch, paint to match decor, etc.

          I'll buy your argument below that buying a more expensive panel heater will come with a nicer thermostat, which can save electricity consumption, but the higher upfront cost of the nicer model probably negates any electricity saving.

          All its literally doing is taking in the cold air from your room and passing it through a heating element

          As opposed to any other heater?

        • ExtraSalt on 15/06/2017 - 06:43

          @sp00ker: Fan forced heaters have a bigger power draw because its obviously got to power the fan etc. Panel heaters are actually being pushed more often than not. The manufacturers are pushing these hard but until recently when Glen Dimplex and Rinnai and other parties started making their own, Noirot and Nobo had market share and believe me, they are priced well over what your average consumer would rather spend. They do have long warranties though, Noirot use to have a lifetime replacement warranty which was literally covering the buyers lifetime.

          Panel heaters were introduced to the Australian market for their efficiency…back then when power was cheaper (obviously), they had signage everywhere saying their 1000w units would cost as little as 7c….but that was about 6-7 years ago and that estimate is now way out….thanks power companies.

          Unless they price panel heaters at a more consumer-friendly price, I don't think the mainstream will pick it up. Ceramic has been a massive draw lately, I have a dimplex one which was a bit over $100, but last week i saw Woolies now have a bastardised version for $30-40 which is ridiculous lol.

        • backpaqer on 15/06/2017 - 11:20

          @andrgram: according to my collection of power bills over 20 years. Cost per kW has only doubled from 10c/kWh to 20c/kWh. No idea when it used to be 7c/kWh. However the supply charge has increased from 11 cents/day to around $1/day.

        • ExtraSalt on 16/06/2017 - 06:34

          @backpaqer: I think it was an average cost per hour based on their smallest panel heater in the most insulated room with the cheapest rates in Australia lol…you know how manufacturers are. This was then they and Nobo were pretty much the only 2 competing. Sized correctly, for a standard 3x3 room, a 1kw panel heater wont be running on 100% for very long.

    • mskeggs on 14/06/2017 - 15:06
      +3

      Panel heaters are extremely cheap to run

      Wut? Compared to employing super models to snuggle you, I suppose it is cheap, but panel heaters are much more costly for the amount of heat produced compared to gas. If they are running at full tilt it is 50c an hour, $4 a night based on the 2kW figure stated, add that again for the second room. My whole house gas ducted runs at 35MJ (a shade under 10kW of heating) at 2.4c per MJ, or 84c an hour heating the whole house.
      If I shut off the rooms not in use, it will be lower.
      Aha! It also runs a 700kW fan, so add about 16c per hour onto the gas cost.

      So you can heat a whole house on gas for equivalent of running 2 panel heaters.
      If you have thermostats on all the devices, your usage will be lower again, likely less than 50%.

      But that still isn't a cost effective way to heat. A modern Reverse Cycle Aircon will have a Coefficient Of Performance of 5 or more. So to produce the 2000W of heating of a panel heater would only use 400w of electricity, or 10c an hour. Much better.

      Last comparison. A single bed electric blanket runs at 160w full heat (uncomfortably hot). 8 hours for it is 32c, less if you keep it on the low setting, likely well under 10c.

      Our central heating gets turned off when we sit down in the lounge after dinner, and we just heat that room with a radiant gas heater. We turn on electric blankets 20mins before bed so the beds are toasty warm when we get in. I turn mine off then, my doona keeps me warm. Some others stay up reading/Netflixing, so keep theirs on while they are doing that.

      • BensonP on 14/06/2017 - 17:02

        Aha! It also runs a 700kW fan, so add about 16c per hour onto the gas cost.

        Wow! Nice tariff! :)

        Other than that, nice write up!

        • mskeggs on 14/06/2017 - 17:18

          I based the power calcs on 25c/kWh, which is pretty normal in much of NSW. I see my mental arithmetic actually pencils out at 17.5c for the fan. I'm with AGL in an Endeavour network area, but obviously have no love for them. Looking at an invoice, I am billed 0.2464 with 16% discount on that, so actually a bit cheaper!

          I was chatting to a guy who ran energy conservation seminars for people on fixed incomes. The item that made the most dramatic difference to peoples bills after studying their usage was telling them to close the door and windows. Energy has been so cheap in Oz for so long that now it has become as costly as in other countries we need to re-educate ourselves on how to impact our usage.

        • skillet on 15/06/2017 - 10:49

          @mskeggs:
          I rephrase BensonP sarcasm…. 700kW = 700,000W

          A normal 10A gpo fan heater is usually 2kW = 2,000W

          You wrote "Aha! It also runs a 700kW fan, so add about 16c per hour onto the gas cost."

          Still don't get it?

        • mskeggs on 15/06/2017 - 14:05

          @skillet:
          Oops. Such a little k makes me a thousand times wrong!

      • ExtraSalt on 14/06/2017 - 18:50
        -2

        Lol yep ok mskeggs once again you know everything. A radiant panel heater costs anywhere between 10c-25c/hr approx to heat up an average bedroom. An average ducted heating system is a 20kw system which is uses up to 90mj/hr.

        If you want to support your argument, give me the make and model of your heater. Nobody out of the 3 reputable ducted heating companies make a 10kw and under ducted heating system. The smallest is usually a 15kw ~ 85mj ducted system. Also if your heating system is as small as you suggest, and closing any vent let alone a few as you suggest would be ridiculously loud and aggressive and the machine would suffocate due to minimum air intake VS. Output

      • ExtraSalt on 14/06/2017 - 19:00
        -2

        Also, while you are in another of your classic 'know it all' rants, you might want to read what I originally wrote where I said ducted is cheap if you want to heat your whole house but if you just want 1 room heated, panel heaters are the choice. Nobody is talking about pound for pound… Im not an idiot.. I've only been selling both ducted and electric for 9 years

        • mskeggs on 14/06/2017 - 21:56

          Cheers mate. Panel heaters are really costly to run, not cheap even for a single room.
          Two panel heaters cost the same as heating the whole house in gas.
          I understand you might be selling other heaters, but you'll be hard pressed to find cheaper than reverse cycle aircon for one room or a house.
          And cheapest will always be small local heat sources like an electric blanket, or the heated tables in Japan.

        • ExtraSalt on 15/06/2017 - 07:04

          @mskeggs: Could you tell me the model of this 10kw ducted heating system you own?

          You still can't or simply choosing not to understand.

          You are basing your figures on 2 panel heaters running on max vs your ducted heating running on an efficient cycle. There is no way anybody's room would require the full 2kw of heating throughout the night. The room would have to be around 5x6 with a standard 2.4 ceiling height…you'd be hard-pressed to find multiple bedrooms in a standard home to be that size. In fact, their brochure says the approx running cost for a 2000w is 30c/hr. Without knowing OP's room size, one can only imagine its the average 3x3 which would only require 838w (perfect world scenario) to heat that room at it's peak. As long as the thermostat is in working order, you'd assume required heating draw would be less as hours tick by.

          The OP wasn't talking about Reverse Cycle ACs. He's talking about ducted vs panel heating. Some people (like myself) hate the feeling of a warm breeze hitting them while they sleep.

          I can't fathom why you are pushing that ducted (heating your whole house) is cheaper than heating up 2 rooms with panel heaters. 100% it will be cheaper as OP has done well getting a reputable brand like Noirot which comes fitted with a thermostat which will cycle on and off as required and even a timer (on some models). It will not be running at 100% all night as your calculations suggest…but nor would the ducted in that case.

          Just out of interest, do you actually own a panel heater?

        • mskeggs on 15/06/2017 - 09:14

          @andrgram:

          Could you tell me the model of this 10kw ducted heating system you own?

          It is a Brivis unit, I don't have the model number to hand. I quoted the peak gas consumption figure on the side sticker.

          I can't fathom why you are pushing that ducted (heating your whole house) is cheaper than heating up 2 rooms with panel heaters.

          My post said it would cost much the same, because you get the same heat output cheaper using gas, and I think both options are too expensive.
          You can't count the benefit of a thermostat for one and not the other, so an easy comparison was the costs of running both systems at full power, assuming if the thermostat on one cuts in and out for 50% heating time it will be consistent across both heater types.

          You may feel that there is some preferable type of heat produced by panel heaters over other systems, and I agree that the hydronic heating in my old house was nicer than forced air, but the OP is asking about costs. If the brochure you quote for panel heaters suggests 30c an hour, and OP is contemplating running two, then I absolutely stand by the comment panel heaters aren't cheap. Run them both 8 hours a night over a hundred days of winter and it is almost $500

          A panel heater isn't the least cost way to produce heat. You may spend less using one with the thermostat set very low if you compare it to air conditioning or gas with the thermostat set higher, but there is no circumstance where a panel heater can produce the same amount of heat cheaper, and in fact, it is the costliest way to heat for the amount of heat produced.

          Just out of interest, do you actually own a panel heater?
          I have previously owned a panel heater with a thermostat. And as I posted, I don't run any room heating overnight.

        • ExtraSalt on 16/06/2017 - 06:45

          @mskeggs: but how do you keep comparing a perfectly sized (probably 15kw) ducted heating system to an oversized Panel heater running cost? OP will be using under 1kw of what that panel heater can produce. The thermostat will understand that and work a much lower rate….as it is designed to do, and as OP expected when paying top dollar. It will cost much less than the 30c quoted on their brochure as i can only assume that it was measured when heating a 20m2 room. Single bedrooms are often 10m2 or a tad less, Doubles bedrooms maybe 15m2?!

        • mskeggs on 16/06/2017 - 09:51

          @andrgram:
          I'm not trying to pick a fight here, just point out the cost of various heating options.
          - radiant electric is about 24c per kWh of heat energy produced.
          - gas is about 9c per kWh of heat
          - R/C cycle aircon/heat pump is about 5c per kWh of heat.

          You are correct that by limiting the heating to the smallest area and using a low thermostat setting, you can require a small amount of heat.
          That is why ducted systems have zones, or electric blankets are a good option, because they limit heat to a small area. And yes, running a panel heater in a small sealed room will similarly use small amounts of power because it will be required to produce little heat.

          The OP is contemplating a second heater, to operate at the same time in a second room. Because these heaters use the costliest power source, running two of them is going to be costly, even with the thermostat set low, because they are operating for an extended period overnight when the ambient temperature is lowest and even at 30% duty cycle they would cost $75 a month to operate.
          And running the ducted heating will cost a bomb too, even assuming it also runs at 30% duty cycle because it has an effective thermostat too.

          In the OP's case, I reckon they should look at options which are less costly to run. A down filled doona, an electric blanket on the lowest setting, or maybe a timer that turns on the heating before wake up.

          Remembering my babies, I suspect the issue isn't keeping people warm while the sleep, but having to get out of bed to collect the baby for a night time feed. If so, maybe the least cost would be an instant-on radiant heater, rather than warming both rooms all night for the short period needed for a feed?

  • tomsco on 14/06/2017 - 14:33
    +2

    My missus posed the same issue about turning ducted heating on - I ended up replacing the old style slide thermostat with a digital one - has on/off timer and is easy enough to swap.

    • [Deactivated] on 14/06/2017 - 15:06

      Should've gone for the wifi+phone app model … i'm sure it exists.

      • tomsco on 14/06/2017 - 15:11

        Haha, I do believe there was a wifi version when I was looking. Cost/value wise, I felt the wifi one didn't offer me any more value then having a timer set. It does weekdays and weekends, which suits as well.

        • hashtagbargain on 14/06/2017 - 15:48

          Do you have any recommendations? I tried ordering one from OW last year but never came back in stock.

          Is there a nest equivalent in Australia?

        • tomsco on 14/06/2017 - 15:50
          +1

          @hashtagbargain:

          I have a Honeywell (benson seems to recommend). I think I paid around $60-$70 for the timer one on eBay. My one just runs off a battery though (below post suggest this isn't practical for wifi and I don't think I already had the C terminal for wifi).

      • BensonP on 14/06/2017 - 15:15
        +1

        There is definitely a Wifi and app version.

        You need to make sure the ducted heating controller has a wire connected to the 'C' terminal. This provides a 24 volt AC constant supply to the remote. This will provide power all the time (wifi will drain a battery thermostat too fast.)

        Otherwise you'll have to run an extra wire from the ducted unit to the thermostat, or add a wire.

        Honeywell make some fantastic thermostats!

        • hashtagbargain on 14/06/2017 - 15:52

          Hey mate, sounds like you know what you are talking about. Point us to some good deals for a converting my regular boring thermostat to a wifi enabled one (preferably for cheap). Cheers!

        • BensonP on 14/06/2017 - 16:23

          @hashtagbargain:

          Well you'll need to post a photo of the thermostat you currently have, and how many wires connect into the back.

          Then I can help from there :)

  • outlander on 14/06/2017 - 14:42
    +1

    Generally gas is cheaper, but the calculation isn't quite so simple in this case. The price of gas appears to be consistant with the price of offpeak electricity, and I notice that whenever there's a price rise on one there's a price rise on the other.

    So, if you have a TOU or dual rate electrical meter, it would be more economical to use the panel heater between the hours of 10pm and 7am at least

  • supnigs super skids on 14/06/2017 - 18:06

    you have to work it out yourself via trial and error. gas is cheaper but heating up the whole house may be more expensive than just heating up a single room using a panel

  • Hirolol on 15/06/2017 - 08:55

    Sounds like you said you can close off rooms that you don't want heated?
    If that's the case and you just want to hear 1 r or 2 rooms then ducted vs electric plug in heaters you will find ducted is more efficient.

    Electric plug in are the worst because they convert energy to heat at a ratio of 1:1.
    Not sure on the ducted but I know the wall mounted split system can do 1:3 even as high as 1:5 energy to heat depending on the rating you want.
    Gas is cheaper than electricity isn't it ?
    So you may as well just heat the kids room and your room with the ducted, use a timer and should be right mate!!!

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