Officer Wrote Me an Unjust Ticket, Need Advice

Goatku on 14/08/2017 - 01:43
Last edited 14/08/2017 - 09:25 by 1 other user

Hey guys, had an unfortunate encounter tonight with a police officer. At this particular traffic light, I am permitted to turn left after stopping. I did so, and ensured there was a safe gap to do the turn. Upon doing the turn, a police officer pulls me over. From his tone, it was obvious he was in a bad mood. I responded with respect, in a tone that was in no way aggressive (in fact, I barely got the opportunity to say anything).

He began with something like "Do you have your licence on you? Do you know what you just did?". At that point in time, I was in shock as I had no idea that I did anything wrong. I'm familiar with this intersection as I frequently travel through this street.

I don't remember how exactly this went down as I was in shock at the time, but I believe the officer claimed that I had run a red light. My friend explained (politely) that we were permitted to turn left carefully upon stopping. The officer however, claimed I did not stop (although I am certain that I did - In fact, there was a car in front of me mid turn, forcing me to stop behind the traffic light to check). The officer proceeded to breath test me and took away my licence. After some time, he returned my licence and as he walked off, he said that I would receive a ticket in my mail.

Is there anything I can do about this? I believe this ticket was unjust, and judging from the officer's tone/attitude, it seemed he was in a bad mood or had a bad day, leading me to believe he abused his power as an officer and wrote me a ticket to let off his frustration. I am currently awaiting the ticket.

I'd appreciate any advice,
Thanks in advance guys.

Automotive

closed Comments

  • [Deactivated] on 14/08/2017 - 01:48
    +58

    Take a day off work and challenge it in court.
    Good luck.

    • Euphemistic on 14/08/2017 - 10:38
      +3

      You might be able to write in and ask for leniency. My wife did that many years ago, came to a stop sign on a down hill and was accused of not stopping. She was sure she had stopped, at lest enough to get eh car back into first gear. You can only do this if you have a clean record and a long driving history.

      Otherwise, you have the right to contest it in court, but it will be his word against yours.

      • Goatku on 14/08/2017 - 11:32

        That was the plan :(
        I too had to get the car into first gear. I thought he was just targeting me due to the car I drive (a fully stock wrx) to check for defects.
        I do have a clean record, but I've only been driving for the last 5 or so years.

        • Scrooge McDuck on 14/08/2017 - 23:14
          +10

          Do you know which station he was from?

          You can call them and ask to arrange a viewing of the in-car footage. I did this when pinged at a school zone and the officer recorded the wrong time. So I disputed it in court and got off.

        • Scrooge McDuck on 14/08/2017 - 23:15
          +12

          @Scrooge McDuck:

          You should also acquire and fit dash cams, they would've saved you all this hassle.

        • Goatku on 14/08/2017 - 23:35
          +2

          @Scrooge McDuck:

          Unfortunately not, I was in shock at the time and he told me I was getting a ticket in the mail as he was walking off so I didn't really get a chance to say anything.

          I was going to grab one a month ago actually, but decided to wait for a new model that isn't yet released. Didn't think I'd have to use one against a cop. :/

        • trongy on 16/08/2017 - 09:59
          +1

          @Devidz:
          When you get the ticket it should have the officer's details.

          It's also possible that the officer reviews the evidence before sending the ticket and realises his mistake.

          It could be a painful wait for that because sometimes tickets take months to get issued.

        • Goatku on 16/08/2017 - 11:34

          @trongy:
          It's pretty dumb that it can take long :/

        • supersabroso on 16/08/2017 - 20:46

          Time to buy a dash cam so that this never happens again. There's a deal on at the moment Viofo A119S.

        • Goatku on 16/08/2017 - 21:26

          @supersabroso:
          Waiting on the Thinkware F800 to come out!

      • lethalmoney on 14/08/2017 - 23:33
        +1

        Can't get a reduction to a warning for red light infringement. Either the issuing office can revoke the ticket if you speak to them (not another officer) or you will have to elect to appear in court

    • frostman on 16/08/2017 - 09:40

      Take a day off work and challenge it in court

      Remember it may cost you more to challenge it, court fees are like $99 and taking a day off work via annual leave anywhere from $200+
      So to avoid a $439 fine, you may even pay $300 upfront.

      Unless you're doing this for 2 other reasons:

      a.) you're at a risk of losing license due to demerits
      b.) you hate that cop

  • Ryanek on 14/08/2017 - 08:03
    +23

    I am willing to bet he did not realise you could make a turn on that red light. I've scared my wife many times at these kind of intersections.
    It's up to you if think its worth challenging in court, but I do suggest you purchase this A118C Dashcam for events like this in the future.

    • Goatku on 14/08/2017 - 11:37
      +4

      I was actually waiting for a new dashcam model to come out. Didn't think I'd have to use it against a police officer unfortunately :/

      I was also thinking the same. I just remembered his words clearly: "What's with the red lights?"
      At the time, I was in shock and thought he was talking about my tail lights (there's a red vinyl overlay on them). I'm thinking he didn't know we were able to turn red there and he wanted to save face.

    • PerthectDeal on 15/08/2017 - 11:16

      Totally agree, got one for my car and after that one for the wife's and family members. The A118C is a excellent 'discreet' webcam as a wedge shape, it looks an integral part of the car, set it and forget.

      Only advice is get the Vivfo A118C not the generic brand one. They look the same externally but generic has cheap low spec components in. I brought some Vivfo and some generic A118C and the Vivfo video quality is 100% better - much sharper and can see so much more detail. Worth the extra $10-20.

  • nocure on 14/08/2017 - 09:09
    +12

    Upload your dashcam footage.

    • airzone on 14/08/2017 - 12:29
      +46

      This got me out of a ticket for "refusing to stop" at an rbt and "nearly running over a police officer" and all that sort of crap.

      As soon as I pointed to the dashcam and asked "are you sure", they changed their tune.

      • [Deactivated] on 14/08/2017 - 19:02
        +5

        I wonder if bodycam (for the general public) will become commonplace for such incidents (that may happen beyond the car)

      • Scrooge McDuck on 14/08/2017 - 23:18
        +15

        As soon as I pointed to the dashcam and asked "are you sure", they changed their tune.

        That is truly appalling!

      • Name on 15/08/2017 - 19:29
        +2

        Shouldn't have said anything and taken them to court. Showed the footage that they lied. Surely you could lodge some kind of complaint against them?

        • regenade on 15/08/2017 - 19:49
          +5

          Why can't you prosecute the police in Australia when they fine you mistakenly ?

        • airzone on 15/08/2017 - 21:11
          +3

          Didn't want to take the day off to go to court, and they'd just withdraw the charge as soon as they found I was going to present video evidence. Also it was at ~4am - I wasn't exactly a font of philosophical thought.

  • oscargamer on 14/08/2017 - 09:11
    +28

    if you are waiting for the ticket, the you don't have a ticket

    come back if/when you get the ticket

    • Goatku on 14/08/2017 - 11:39

      So you think he may have just said the ticket would be in my mailbox to intimidate me?

        • Goatku on 14/08/2017 - 11:42
          +2

          Unfortunately not. It was a new situation to me and I was in shock when he approached me.

        • oscargamer on 14/08/2017 - 11:47
          +2

          @Devidz:

          Oh well. Keep an eye on the mailbox then.

          All will be revealed in a week or so (or not)

        • [Deactivated] on 14/08/2017 - 13:36

          @Devidz: Maybe he was just upset he couldn't finish his shift because he hadn't met his 'quota' yet and thought you were an easy target?

        • [Deactivated] on 14/08/2017 - 17:58
          +3

          @oscargamer: I don't know if quota's exist or not, it's just hearsay. Do you work for Australian Police? If so please enlighten me.

        • oscargamer on 14/08/2017 - 18:11
          -3

          @voolish:

          if cops had a quota, a number of things come to mind

          1. it would be common knowledge (leaks to the press are all too common from law enforcement)
          2. once the 'quota' had been reached, then cops would pretty much stop issuing tickets - you could FOI the number of tickets issued for each day of the month, then surely the last week of each month would have lower numbers than the first?………..but that's not the case
          3. why have a quota? that would set a cap on tickets. surely all those people that whinge "it's just revenue raising" would fall on their swords. surely unlimited revenue is SO much better that limited revenue (limited by a quota)
        • lysp on 14/08/2017 - 19:29
          +11

          @oscargamer:

          https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/4787559/redir

          Most of the Victoria Police's operational members justify their existence by statistics. HWP is the same. You want to be within HWP, you are expected to give a large amount of tickets each shift. We work by quantity not quality.

          It's not about revenue raising, we don't get the money, we don't see the money. They give the tickets because they have to give a lot of tickets to justify their existence as a unit as a member. Have you heard of drop off 5 and police will let you go. That's wrong because drop off 5 and they will find something else, they have to, for the stats. Everything is recorded and monitored and if you don't want to have the discussion with your manager regarding your work performance, you have to give tickets.

          The problems begin when stats (most important) and laziness come into place. Because of stats and the fact that they are employed at HWP they very rarely respond to anything else rather than car crashes. They are not allowed to or they'll get the talk and the kick. Because of the stats they give unnecessary tickets that may actually transform some of the community members into crooks by taking their opportunity to go to work away from them.

          This was covered in a recent VicPol member's AMA.

          Basically there isn't a formal quota, but there is an implied one.

        • Matslurpee on 14/08/2017 - 21:30
          +14

          @oscargamer: You made me hit my neg limit, stop posting so much crap.

        • lethalmoney on 14/08/2017 - 23:36

          @oscargamer:

          Correct.

        • ChatCPT on 15/08/2017 - 08:45
          +2

          @oscargamer:

          which bit specifically, is crap??

          Refer to the negs

        • oscargamer on 15/08/2017 - 09:13
          -7

          @havok44:

          So, the quota/not quota thing?

          I can't be bothered trying to convince anyone about anything, particularly those with such closed minds, but could anyone please give any link or personal experience where aussie police say they have quotas?

          Even the VP AMA member, that's quoted above, states that HWP are expected to issue large numbers of tickets, but does not mention quotas.

        • tonsta on 15/08/2017 - 19:19

          @voolish: I dont know about "quota's" but I was talking with 2 traffic cops with radar guns setting a trap while on duty. During our conversation of various things the officers would ping someone speeding and would say "You write this one in your book, I'll get the next one".

          They were pinging people speeding, but makes you wonder if they just needed to bulk up each others ticket books. Minimum performance standards possibly?

        • ensanguined on 16/08/2017 - 22:01

          @oscargamer:

          Stop talking.

      • smpantsonfire on 14/08/2017 - 17:36

        Yeah,I reckon you won't getanything

  • John Kimble on 14/08/2017 - 09:15
    +12

    Don't think you can do much, his word over yours.

    Like stop signs (unlike give way signs), you have to come to a complete stop technically, so maybe that's what he has got you on.

    • ItsMeAgro on 14/08/2017 - 09:44
      +18

      Yeah, I got a surprise $400 fine after a perfectly reasonable stop once, so now I stop completely and count to two at all stop signs. It annoys people behind me, but they're not going to cough up for the fine, are they.

      • John Kimble on 14/08/2017 - 11:14
        +4

        My brother instant failed his P's test driving out of the car park of the RTA because he didn't come to a complete stop. They let him complete the whole test though, was the only infraction. Hahaha, so annoying!

      • Scrooge McDuck on 14/08/2017 - 23:28
        +21

        so now I stop completely and count to two at all stop signs.

        I park the car, get out and walk two laps around the car whilst patting my head, rubbing my tummy and saying "rubber baby buggy bumpers", just to be sure. You can never be too careful!!

    • Goatku on 14/08/2017 - 11:42
      +3

      I'm pretty sure I did come to a complete stop. The officer was so far away, it was easily a safe turn as well.
      Unfortunately in court, it'd be his "expert opinion" against mine, a resident of the area for over 15 years. I got pulled over literally a street away from my house.

      • John Kimble on 14/08/2017 - 11:53

        If that's the case, that might not be the reason then. I was just guessing.

        He really should have given you a clear explanation as to why you were getting a ticket so there was no confusion and obviously so you don't do it (the rule he thinks you broke) again.

        I suppose just wait for the ticket then, should say what it's for on there.

      • R3XNebular on 15/08/2017 - 21:38
        -1

        Nope, he's word vs your word are both equal. He'd need to have his partner vouching for the same thing to have you found guilty for the traffic offence.

        • John Kimble on 16/08/2017 - 06:31

          I'm pretty sure police word > than "yours" in general and especially when they have found you breaking the law.

          Something about the oath they have taken etc, maybe why they can also witness documents?

          Even though judges are supposed to be impartial, it also wouldn't make any sense for judges to not side with the police more often than not, or the system wouldn't work/people would challenge everything.

          I've not heard of a police person having to have their partner vouch for them???

        • R3XNebular on 16/08/2017 - 09:20
          +2

          @John Kimble:
          I work in QLD as a police AO. For any offence it has to beyond reasonable doubt. A police officers word is equal to any member of the public. An officer recently lost a court case for a mobile phone ticket because there was conjecture about the phone actually being held. Officer said he saw the phone held while the defendant said it wasn't in his hand and was between his legs.

      • Hellman109 on 17/08/2017 - 01:21

        If you want to contest it, ask where he was, distance, what was between you and how did he determine that you didnt stop.

        Basically throw doubt into his view of what happened.

        • whooah1979 on 17/08/2017 - 06:16

          They have dashcam.

    • -.- on 15/08/2017 - 09:05
      +2

      At least when I was taught, a complete stop (i.e. before a stop sign, left turn after stopping on red etc.) meant 3 whole seconds. Not sure whether this still applies (but no one ever does it…)

  • Diji1 on 14/08/2017 - 10:18
    +21

    He was probably in a bad mood because he's behind on ticket quotas.

    • Euphemistic on 14/08/2017 - 10:35
      +26

      And the donut shop was closed.

      • outlander on 14/08/2017 - 11:46
        +8

        And he's a cop

      • TheRealCher on 14/08/2017 - 18:27
        +2

        Did he have to wait in the maccas drive thru?

        • sss333 on 14/08/2017 - 21:01
          +19

          Because a certain Ozbargainer refused to park?

        • TheRealCher on 14/08/2017 - 23:10
          +2

          @sss333: precisely. And then proceeded to check his 400 neg votes before leaving the area

  • garetz on 14/08/2017 - 10:59
    +1

    If you had a friend with you, doesnt that mean its not just your word vs his ? as you have a corroborating witness.

    • Goatku on 14/08/2017 - 11:28

      I'm not sure his words would be worth anything as he is a friend.

      • robbyjones on 14/08/2017 - 12:41
        +9

        It means everything if he is prepared to sign a stat dec.

        • John Kimble on 14/08/2017 - 12:48

          People lie on stat decs all the time…

        • manshrew on 14/08/2017 - 12:52
          +4

          @John Kimble:
          But the point it that they shouldn't be lying on a stat dec.

        • robbyjones on 14/08/2017 - 12:52
          +9

          @John Kimble: The courts don't see it that way and that's what matters.

      • Scrooge McDuck on 14/08/2017 - 23:35
        +3

        I'm not sure his words would be worth anything as he is a friend.

        Sleep with his wife: Problem solved!!

    • lethalmoney on 14/08/2017 - 23:39
      +1

      An independent witness would help, this is not said witness.

      • Goatku on 14/08/2017 - 23:52

        As I thought :(

  • JimB on 14/08/2017 - 11:19
    +5

    I wish we could turn left on a red light in Victoria.

    It's so stupid you can't even when it's perfectly safe to do.

    • Goatku on 14/08/2017 - 11:29
      +5

      We're able to do this at certain lights here in NSW. This particular light has a sign which says we are permitted to turn upon stopping.

      • JimB on 14/08/2017 - 12:16
        +1

        Yeah I know, it makes sense and will reduce the amount of time stuck behind a red light.

        • Goatku on 14/08/2017 - 12:41

          You mean you guys don't have that at all? wow

        • JimB on 14/08/2017 - 13:42

          @Devidz:

          Yup, ridiculous we can't do it.

        • YellowDieselGolf on 14/08/2017 - 21:37
          +1

          @JB1:

          We get the occasional left turn on red, but can't do u turns at signals unless signposted. Six of one …

        • JimB on 15/08/2017 - 00:23
          +3

          @YellowDieselGolf:

          I turn left many much more than doing a U turn.

          We also get the pleasure of turning right from the far left lane in the city. lol

        • FUZHA on 16/08/2017 - 09:37

          @JB1: Oh, that Hooker of a turn! ;-)

        • melbstheburn on 16/08/2017 - 12:23

          @FUZHA: Texas have a rule "right on red" means you can run a red light if you are turning right ( when safe to do so) wish we had that here!!

        • Easton on 16/08/2017 - 12:41

          @slimdavy5: It's not just Texas, it's the whole of the USA that is right turn on red by default (unless signposted otherwise).

        • Easton on 16/08/2017 - 12:42

          @JB1: In NSW, we're also allowed to cross double unbroken lines to turn into driveways.

        • melbstheburn on 16/08/2017 - 12:53

          @Easton: Thanks Easton, I lived in Texas for 6 months and they told me it was Texas only ( they are very patriotic ) now I know :)

      • Randxyz123 on 14/08/2017 - 13:15
        +1

        Go back and take a photo. I'd say you didn't come to a complete stop.stopping behind the car in front and then going doesn't count even though it may have been safe

  • TheBilly on 14/08/2017 - 11:51
    +13

    I'm not saying you didn't stop. But a couple of years ago, the same thing happened to me at a stop sign. First thing that came to mind was - Bullshit, of course I stopped - but when I think back on it, I was in fact rolling very very slowly, and hadn't come to a complete stop. Yes he is a bit of a dick for getting me on that, but he was right irrespective of what I say or do, it is a STOP sign, so that means a complete stop for a few seconds. It could've happened to you too, where you were going that slow you didn't even realise you were rolling slightly - I have a very bad driving history, and can hand on heart say that I have never received an unjust fine, they're all deserved, albeit some might've been obscure and it really makes you think WTF, but further research shows that they were "technically" right. Police officers rarely operate in a way that is unjust or with intimidation in mind, because they deal with a lot of paperwork and associated crap, and it is also not in their interest to have investigation start up against them.

    • smpantsonfire on 14/08/2017 - 17:39
      +4

      Is a bit silly I think. You slowed down and assessed the intersection and took appropriate action.

      • Scrooge McDuck on 14/08/2017 - 23:42
        +1

        You could easily take an infringement like this to court and get off with a section 10 — the offence is on the lowest end of the seriousness scale, is trivial and was completely safe.

  • [Deactivated] on 14/08/2017 - 11:51
    +3

    Did you actually stop or do a rolling stop/slow?

    • Goatku on 14/08/2017 - 11:57

      I can't be too sure at this point, but I feel like I did several complete short stops and rolls as there was a car in front of me also doing the same turn. Not sure how the officer would even spot that if he was driving (officer was driving along the road I was turning into, in the direction I was going to head).

      • manshrew on 14/08/2017 - 12:53
        +1

        It would be easier for him to see if he was perpendicular to your car; unless there was traffic blocking his view.

        • Goatku on 14/08/2017 - 12:58

          That's true, though when I was right at the red light, he was pretty far away. I guess he either thought I ran a red (approached me, asking "what was with the red light"), or he caught me on a technicality (can't say for sure that I came to a complete stop despite being in first gear)

        • manshrew on 14/08/2017 - 13:03
          +3

          @Devidz:

          If it was a Highway Patrol car they record most of the time, you might be able to request the video?
          I've never had to do it before, but you might get lucky with it.

        • [Deactivated] on 14/08/2017 - 14:33
          +2

          @manshrew:

          If it was a Highway Patrol car they record most of the time, you might be able to request the video?

          I'm pretty sure regular patrol cars have dashcams as well now. Motorcycle police has helmet cams.

          Ask for a copy of the officers notes and video evidence from the incident.

          Make sure you keep a record of your requests for information. If they fail to supply it, it'll look bad for them at court.

        • Goatku on 14/08/2017 - 16:53
          +1

          @sp00ker:

          It was a regular patrol car. I'll be sure to do so, thanks for the advice!

        • lethalmoney on 14/08/2017 - 23:41
          -1

          @sp00ker:

          You can't ask for his notes, they are his. If it is contested in court and a statement is made, you would get a copy as legislation is required with 'ongoing disclosure'.

        • [Deactivated] on 15/08/2017 - 00:26
          -1

          @lethalmoney:

          You can't ask for his notes

          Where'd you get that from? Of course you can ask for them. The police officer may not supply them.

        • lethalmoney on 15/08/2017 - 00:33
          -2

          @sp00ker:

          I'll rephrase for your brain.
          No officer in their right mind would supply their notes to you, nor are they required to.

        • [Deactivated] on 15/08/2017 - 00:48
          +1

          @lethalmoney:

          I'll rephrase for your brain.

          GFY

          No officer in their right mind would supply their notes to you, nor are they required to.

          Perhaps you should learn to read. I never said they were required to do so. The chance of them volunteering any information (video/notes/audio), especially if it's only purpose is to prove the OPs innocence, is almost zero.

          On the other hand, if you ask for the information and the officer might take a second look and decide to drop the case quietly

          GFY again.

      • Ughhh on 14/08/2017 - 13:03
        +7

        I did several complete short stops and rolls as there was a car in front of me also doing the same turn

        You need to completely stop at the sign, not metres before the sign, the short stops and rolls you did when the car was Infront of you don't count.

        Any cars behind you can see if they pay attention, have the skills and/or have the car leaning on one side of the lane.

        • Goatku on 14/08/2017 - 13:05

          Yeah I mean I was right at the sign as the car in front turned. I can't say for certain that I came to a complete stop as I didn't consciously stop (I may or may not do it automatically). I guess there's a chance I was caught on a technicality.

      • whooah1979 on 14/08/2017 - 14:58

        Hwp vehicles are fitted with dashcams. Did you ask the officer to show you his vid?

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