Red Light Camera Fine - Got a $396 Fine. Chances of Getting It Withdrawn or an Offical Warning?

happy bargain fox on 29/08/2017 - 17:36
Last edited 29/08/2017 - 18:02

I live in VIC and got a 3 demerit point & $396 fine for allegedly failing to obey the traffic lights. I completely understand and agree that running a red light is dangerous & never acceptable (except in a few emergency circumstances, etc…)

What happened:

  • I was stopped at an intersection with 3 lanes - Lane 1 (left) & lane 2 (center) are for going straight, with lane 3 for right turns
  • I was in lane 2 (the central lane) and realised that my GPS was telling me to take a right turn
  • I knew I was in the incorrect lane to make a right turn
  • I indicated with my signals, checked my mirrors, did a head check before, moving into the right lane and making the right turn
  • As my car was on the senor under the road - the notice said that 80.4 seconds had elapsed since the red light came on
  • When I moved off the sensor - it triggered the red light camera

My circumstances:

  • I entered into the intersection whilst the light for going straight was red but the turn light was amber (the photo I've attached clearly shows this)
  • This is my very first traffic infringement, I have never received a fine/demerit point loss/official warning ever in my 12+ year driving history
  • I would never knowingly run a red light (and my clean track record demonstrates this)
  • I can already rule out any special circumstances (ie. financial, medical, homelessness, etc…) as it doesn't apply to me

Red Light Camera Image
I'm the Blue car

Have a look at the photos and let me know what you think.

At this stage I think it's worth writing a letter explaining what happened.

For others in similar circumstances, I'll keep this thread updated on it's progress and outcome.

Thanks :)

Poll Options

  • 41
    Suck it up and pay it (you've done the wrong thing)
  • 14
    Write a letter explaining your circumstances
  • 0
    Go to court (OBJECTION!!!)
  • 0
    Other (leave your suggestions in the comments)
Automotive

Comments

  • oscargamer on 29/08/2017 - 17:50
    -1

    didn't read, but no chance of getting a warning

    • [Deactivated] on 30/08/2017 - 13:07

      Let me abbreviate that for you…

      • I turned right from a straight lane
      • Got fined for running a red light while I was doing so
      • Don't want to pay the fine, make post on OzBargain so my peers can convince me I have a chance of overturning this.
  • [Deactivated] on 29/08/2017 - 18:00
    -1

    My comment was unpublshed so I will try again.

    You should contest this. Despite road rules being there for a reason, and the consequences of entering an intersection on a red can irreversibly change someones life; you are special and should no way have to pay the fine.

    • happy bargain fox on 29/08/2017 - 18:08
      -2

      Thanks for your opinion/comment eggmaster - I was quick enough to see your other one too :)

      Not sure if you managed to have a look at the picture and/or read my circumstances. I don't think i'm special/privileged/entitled to anything - just trying to gather people's thoughts on my particular set of circumstances.

      • [Deactivated] on 29/08/2017 - 18:37
        -2

        I like how this sub can continue to raise threads about being F1 drivers and being above traffic offences.

        Your circumstances were that you entered an intersection when you should not have.

        Is this the Aussie thing where people say "awww im in prison because i was at the wrong place at the wrong time" - When they actually just beat someones face in. People lack ownership and responsibility on the road.

        https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/326608

  • snynx on 29/08/2017 - 18:02
    +2

    you should pay an additional fine for using tinypic (seriously though I can't see the image, it redirects me to tinypic homepage)

    use imgur

  • dylanando on 29/08/2017 - 18:09

    i can see where you're coming from and it kind of sucks the situation you're in but sucking it up/off is more than likely the best option. If it affects your ability to drive, then FIGHHTT!

  • [Deactivated] on 29/08/2017 - 18:15
    +1

    turned from the wrong lane, that's probably a fine itself.

  • DogGunn on 29/08/2017 - 18:20
    +7

    Oddly enough, having helped friends who have been in similar situations, I can tell you if you write to Civic Compliance explaining to them that you were turning, not going straight, and it can be seen in the photo (which can be in your situation), they will withdraw the infringement notice.

    Just explain it clearly, and nicely (you would be surprised there are idiots out there that curse and swear in correspondence to them), ask them to withdraw it. They'll do it despite what many people have posted on here.

    They don't issue infringement notices in Victoria when you do not follow a traffic lane arrow (as you have) if caught by a red light camera.

    • happy bargain fox on 29/08/2017 - 18:25

      Cheers DogGunn - I'll give that a try and see how that goes :)

      Just to clarify, if I'm writing to Civic Compliance as per your advice, is that as a separate letter or as an internal review (in response to this infringement notice)?

      • DogGunn on 29/08/2017 - 18:28
        +2

        Write to them under the infringement notice as an internal review.
        I have no doubt based on the images you've posted that they will withdraw it.

        There are plenty of threads on Whirlpool in the automotive section showing very similar circumstances, essentially resulting in CC withdrawing almost all the infringement notices in question on first contact.

        • happy bargain fox on 29/08/2017 - 18:31

          Thanks again DogGunn, I appreciate your advice - i'll do that :)

    • bigeater on 30/08/2017 - 11:09

      DogGunn, You are misleading OP and giving unrealistic hope. In your logic, any car, no matter in whichever lane, can turn right if the arrow is green/amber without breaching red light rules? No offence OP.

      • DogGunn on 30/08/2017 - 11:27
        +1

        I am not by any means. This is what I do for a living, although typically I work on much more serious criminal matters.

        In the Road Rules, there is actually a defence provided if the the traffic lights are showing a green traffic arrow and the driver is turning in the direction shown on the traffic arrow. RR59(1) is what is typically used on an infringement notice for a red light offence.

        http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/vic/conso… - RR59

        (1) If traffic lights at an intersection or marked foot crossing are showing a red traffic light, a driver must not enter the intersection or marked foot crossing.

        (3) Also, subrule (1) does not apply to a driver if rule 58(1) or (2) applies to the driver.

        http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/vic/conso… - RR58

        (1) A driver approaching or at traffic lights showing a red or yellow traffic light does not have to stop if a green traffic arrow is also showing and the driver is turning in the direction indicated by the arrow.

        So to answer your question:

        In your logic, any car, no matter in whichever lane, can turn right if the arrow is green/amber without breaching red light rules?

        Yes - they can. They can turn right if there is a green right arrow showing on the traffic light, from any lane.
        There are separate offences for not following the traffic lane arrows which are painted on the lanes and provide the directions that can be taken, but they do not issue infringement notices for this offence from red light cameras.

        Now in OPs case, while they didn't turn on a green traffic arrow, the evidence that is used to prosecute red light offences does not actually show OP committing the offence the cameras are programmed to take photos of.

        • bigeater on 30/08/2017 - 11:51
          +1

          Thanks for the explanation. Still consider this illogical or a loophole of the system. OP clearly breach the law by turning right from a wrong lane. If OP gets away with this fine, it just shows that the system is flawed, not that the OP is not at fault or not deserved to be fined.

        • venu on 30/08/2017 - 13:00

          @bigeater: Don't think anyone disagrees that OP broke the rules and crossed a solid line. However, the fine he got was for running a red light, which is not the case as it is obvious he was turning right. That's all that needs to be contested. Whether they change the fine or choose to drop it altogether is their prerogative but history (and my personal history) shows they often choose the latter.

  • pegaxs on 29/08/2017 - 18:58

    So, you actually did two things wrong. Turned right from a lane that can't turn right as well as left your lane while it was under red stop signal.

    I would suck it up that they didn't ping you for both. You have a good record, no harm in writing a letter and asking, but don't get all butt hurt if they say no.

    Don't bother taking it to court, it won't play out well for you and they may just decide to add the whole turning right from the middle lane into the mix just to spice it up.

    Best solution, cop it sweet, learn from your error, ask to be put on a payment plan and pay it out at the absolute minimum they will let you pay it off. Wait 3 years until it is expunged from your record and go on your merry road rule observing way.

  • oscargamer on 29/08/2017 - 19:07

    please re-sit your driving test

    or do some remedial lessons in road rules

  • Randxyz123 on 29/08/2017 - 19:10
    +2

    I completely understand and agree that running a red light is dangerous & never acceptable (except in a few emergency circumstances, etc…)

    Unless you have a sign on your car saying "ambulance/ fire/police" no emergency would warrant going through a red light.

    You're in the wrong but write in explain you were turning right. It might be the photo but I can't see your indicator but you are clearly going right not straight.

  • AdosHouse on 29/08/2017 - 19:16
    +9

    So instead of just going straight ahead, doing a legal turn ahead and coming back, you just decided to turn from the wrong lane?

    Suck it up, and just pay the fine. As my dad taught me when I was learning to drive, there is always another exit/turn ahead.

    • rompastompa on 29/08/2017 - 20:54
      +2

      Exactly. The amount of times I see someone changing their mind and potentially endangering others is shocking. You may think you've checked to make sure it's safe, but you can't see 360°. Other drivers, pedestrians, cyclists may expect you to go one way, and then change your mind. They may not check to see if you're there as you shouldn't be!

      I think it's crazy when you see someone do a U-Turn, when there's a round-about not even 100m down the road.

      OP: You went over solid white lines. This is illegal.

  • Tee Rex Arms on 29/08/2017 - 19:58
    +1

    Reissue a TIN for disobey directional arrow on road

  • jzdhgkd on 29/08/2017 - 20:17
    +1

    Even if you were in the right lane, the camera shows the light had gone red less than a second after you'd entered the intersection which means you decided to go while the light was yellow.

    I don't think you've got a chance of winning any appeal but it certainly doesn't hurt to write a letter to try and argue your point.

    • DogGunn on 29/08/2017 - 20:28

      They don't issue infringements for entering on a yellow light though. So they'll just withdraw the one for entering the intersection on a red, because they were following the law which allows them to turn in the direction of the traffic light arrow (difference offence for ignoring the road markings).

      • AdosHouse on 29/08/2017 - 21:20

        In QLD at least, the fine and demerits for failing to stop on a yellow when safe to do so, is exactly the same as failing to stop for a red when safe to do so. So yes it is actually an offense, in QLD at least.

        • DogGunn on 29/08/2017 - 21:56
          +2

          It's an offence everywhere in Australia, but as far as I am aware, even in QLD, they cannot issue a fine for failing to stop on the yellow from a red light camera, because it doesn't record evidence of yellow light offences that could be used to prosecute.

        • AdosHouse on 29/08/2017 - 23:18

          @DogGunn:

          From a camera I'm pretty sure they can't. Just on visual from a cop.

  • JimmyF on 29/08/2017 - 20:21

    Chances of Getting It Withdrawn or an Offical Warning?

    ZERO…..for a normal red light ticket

    But as for turning on the 'arrow' from the wrong lane, you can always plead your case in writing and see what they say. Worst case is they'll say no and you pay it.

  • [Deactivated] on 29/08/2017 - 21:30

    Turning right meant you are crossing a straight line. Too many mistakes. Pay up buddy and let this be a lesson. Cant stand drivers like you who think its ok to turn if they are about to miss a turn. Just go straight and find a way to turn around.

    • [Deactivated] on 30/08/2017 - 12:49
      -1

      Hang on, that's not the response the OP was looking for…!

  • p1 ama on 29/08/2017 - 21:37
    +2

    You'll get a mix of responses here - you have the army who will jump on you and say "always follow laws, ra ra ra" as if they've never broken a single road rule in their life, then you'll get the anti-rules group who believe that most road rules are stupid and people should be able to do whatever they want on the road.

    To be honest, I'm not in a place to judge - but the best way to find out whether it will be repealed or not is to just write a letter and find out. Look, at the end of the day, what you did was stupid (in the same sense as provoking a cop would be, as you were in front of a camera that would go off), but ultimately, it wasn't dangerous and looking at the picture, you could barely tell that you came from the 2nd land rather than the right turn lane.

    Just try your luck what do you have to lose?

    • [Deactivated] on 29/08/2017 - 22:58

      I have never broken a single traffic law in Australia in my life. There is no reason to. They are simple enough to follow. When I do drive, on occasions, I stick to 5-10km/h under the speed limit. I am in no rush.

      • Third_Gear on 30/08/2017 - 12:36

        Please please stay out of the far right lane on the highway.

      • [Deactivated] on 30/08/2017 - 12:48
        +1

        It's people like you who cause havoc on our arterials.
        Please stick to the suburbs.

        • [Deactivated] on 30/08/2017 - 13:24

          someone who is adhering to the speed "limit" by staying under it and not breaking any laws is causing "havok" on arterial roads.

          Sounds legit and reasonable.

          I never implied i was in the wrong lanes holding anyone up.

          It is a speed limit. There is an implication this is the limit. Not the minimum; though i understand many people on this forum struggle to comprehend such basics. This probably goes hand in hand with the huge number of people like OP who get a ticket then scratch thier heads why.

          It is actually usually people who break road rules, be f1 drivers, speed and drive impatiently and cause accidents generating 1000s of hours of lost human time per single crash (few 1000 people wait for an hour. How great is that).

          Everyone here is rubbing one out saying "right of way" is indeed a thing and a 100% truth on our roads. Which would make me even more correct and your point moot. However people have a responsibilty on the roads. A responsibility to others, themselves and to follow the road laws. This may be difficult to comprehend but I would encourage you to please give it a try.

        • p1 ama on 31/08/2017 - 00:07

          @eggmaster: Don't think there's any need to be on such a high horse - you can follow some rules, that's great. It's not really something to boast about nor does it make you better than anyone else.

          That said, you seem to imply things which are not true. I don't think anyone miscomprehends the idea of a speed limit and it's certainly not the case that everyone who breaks a road rule is doing something dangerous, causing an accident or are trying to be F1 drivers.

          Distractions, incompetence and a lack of attention are far bigger issues than someone going at 65 in a 60 zone. Case in point - look at the picture OP posted. Did he break a road rule? Yes. Was what he did stupid? Certainly, especially in front of a camera.

          But the most important question - was it dangerous? No. There is literally nobody else in sight that could have made this a dangerous situation.

          Like I said initially, I'm in no place to judge anybody. On the road, I focus on my own driving and couldn't care less what anyone else does. I'm not the police and I have no interest in policing the rules. No need to be arrogant just because you can drive 5-10km/h below the limit.

  • venu on 29/08/2017 - 22:11
    -1

    You used common sense and got pinged by a robot that relied on erroneous data. Harder to repeal once fine is generated but not impossible. Give a shot and good luck.

    • [Deactivated] on 29/08/2017 - 23:26
      +2

      Could you please clarify how disobeying a) traffic lights for the lane you're in and b) disobeying marked traffic lane directions are "erroneous data"?

      Looks fine to me, the only thing erroneous here is the OP's judgement.

      • venu on 30/08/2017 - 07:52

        The sensor was for the lane going straight. He didn't go straight. Hence erroneous. Furthermore not everyone gets the fine in the mail for doing this. If it was a clear cut offense they would. OP got unlucky.

        • [Deactivated] on 30/08/2017 - 12:47
          +1

          The sensor was for the lane going straight.
          He didn't go straight.
          Hence erroneous

          I wonder whose error it could've been…

        • endotherm on 30/08/2017 - 15:21

          He disobeyed the red light for the lane he was in.
          He crossed the stop line applicable to the lane.
          He tripped the sensor for that lane and was snapped.
          Quite clearly enough points of proof to sustain the charge.

          Just because he is compounding it by making an incorrect turn doesn't make it erroneous.

        • venu on 30/08/2017 - 16:16
          +1

          @endotherm: The objective of the sensor is there to capture those who are going straight through a red light and endangering oncoming traffic. I agree he turned from the wrong lane and crossed a solid line doing so, but he did not run a red light and he did not endanger oncoming traffic. e.g. If he turned into the right lane as the second car in the red light queue he would be committing the SAME offence yet not trip the sensor.

          Thus the sensor was incorrectly tripped for a different offence and as such the fine should not be equivalent.

        • endotherm on 30/08/2017 - 18:22

          @venu: The sensor in that lane is designed to detect a vehicle entering the intersection after the light has turned red. That is all. It performed its function. The OP crossed the stop line against a red, and there is a photo of him doing so. There is enough evidence to support running a red light. The result isn't erroneous. Endangering traffic isn't an element of the offence. What he did after that is irrelevant. The offence is complete.

          The OP can make a submission that he was making a right turn in order to say that offence isn't applicable and the turn is excepted under the legislation. However he has already admitted entering against a yellow arrow, and based on his speed would have had ample time to stop. Crossing on a yellow arrow is the same as disobeying a red arrow or light.

          You are asking a human, re-evaluating all the evidence before him, to withdraw an offence because his defence is that he was committing another offence at the time? They may not prosecute such offences based on the photographic evidence, but I doubt they would allow the defence of "committing another crime at the time" to be successful in defending the first.

        • venu on 30/08/2017 - 19:28

          @endotherm:

          All good points. But endangering traffic/people or the potential to do so should certainly be considered as an element of the offence since road laws are created to protect people. I don't think running a red light is equivalent to what the OP did. Just because the mechanism we have for detecting those running red lights also captures this particular offence, does not mean the fines should be equivalent.

          I would certainly request the fine be withdrawn, and if they wish to re-issue him with one for switching lanes through a solid line, then so be it. But I can say from personal experience and from reading other anecdotal evidence, that they rarely do this. Hence why I suggested OP has nothing to lose.

          However, you are right in that they may wish to uphold offence since he did enter the intersection during a yellow arrow when he could have safely remained behind the line.

        • endotherm on 31/08/2017 - 00:38

          @venu: Couldn't agree more with you, it should be considered. However the law doesn't work that way. It is very logical and methodical, like tick the box. Did you do such-and-such? Yes? Point proven. Issue fine for offence X. Next! Should it go before a court, beyond this "automated" process, then once the offence is proven things like the degree of danger can be considered, lessening or increasing a penalty. If it didn't work this way, we'd all be driving like the rules don't matter and it's only if it were dangerous that the laws would apply. I'd love a dollar for every time I've heard "but I didn't see the other car/person, he came out of nowhere" after an accident. That's why they exist and are intended to be applied literally.

  • endotherm on 29/08/2017 - 23:03

    Firstly you would need to convince them that you were turning right. There is no direct evidence in the photo of this, there's no indicator on your car in either photo. It could just as easily be argued that the position of your car was because you realised you went through the red and intended to go straight through but you diverged to go around the rear of the ambulance, thus explaining why no indicators appear on the photos.

    Sometimes it is permitted to turn from the center lane. If the lane on the right is exclusively marked as a right turn lane, and the center lane has no marking, you may use that lane to turn or go straight ahead. Looking at this map, it shows an exclusive right turn lane and an exclusive straight through lane. If you turned from the center lane, you have disobeyed a traffic control sign (the straight-ahead arrow on the road). You would not have been able to change lanes at a late stage into the correct turning lane as the lane has solid white line markings, making crossing them unlawful. GPS devices generally give you sufficient warning to get into the correct turning lane.

    From the first photo it shows you are in the intersection on a yellow arrow and in the second photo it shows you have moved no more than a car length and the arrow is red. It can be calculated that you did not enter the intersection on a green arrow (also confirmed by you). Due to your slow speed, you should have stopped, even on yellow. Running a yellow arrow/light is the same as running a red arrow/light.

    You are unlikely to be able to use "making a right turn" as an excuse in this case.

  • Architectonic on 01/09/2017 - 02:58
    +1

    Your chances of getting it withdrawn are zero.

  • happy bargain fox on 03/11/2017 - 12:51

    ****UPDATE****

    Just an update for anyone in this situation or if you're interested in my outcome.
    I ended up writing a letter explaining my circumstances and good driving history.
    I got a letter in the mail a few days ago from Victoria Police advising me that the infringement had been withdrawn with no further action being taken against me :)

    No $396 fine and no loss of 3 demerit points!

    I have learned from my mistake and will strive to be a safer driver following all the road rules. I've taken on board some of the advice suggested and will just wait for another safe and legal exit/turn ahead.

    Thanks for all your comments and suggestions and a big thank you to DogGunn for your advice!

    • Skater11 on 10/12/2018 - 10:23

      Hi Happy Bargain Fox,
      I got caught in a very similar situation yesterday. I was just wondering what you wrote in your letter?
      Thanks.

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