Tip: Do Not Raise a Ombudsman Dispute against PayPal (Gumtree Dispute)

jimbobaus on 16/11/2017 - 10:32
Last edited 18/11/2017 - 13:39 by 1 other user

I have had an active PayPal account for over 10 years now and have never had any issues.

Recently I was the victim of a scam and I raised a dispute with PayPal to get the money back. The dispute was found in the other parties favour and I then appealed which was "auto denied" within around 30 seconds. (as the funds had been taken from my savings account, a credit card dispute was not possible)

At no time during the process did PayPal ask for anything from me to clarify my reasons for raising the dispute and when it was denied a second time I contacted them for clarification. They advised that my "purchase was not covered by buyers protection" which I accepted but asked why they didn't seek clarification form my side before making their decision.

Anyways, after a backwards and forwards with PayPal they suggested if I was unhappy to raise it with the Financial Ombudsman Service so I did. A few days later I got two emails from PayPal -

1) Reply to my FOS complaint
2) email advising me my PayPal account was "limited" and when clicking the link found that it was limited permanently (as in I can't use it ever again)

These emails were seconds apart so its obvious they are linked.
I have been able to open a new account with my other email address and bank account etc, but it kinda sucks that 10 years means nothing to them, if you complain they do not want you as a customer.

TLDR: If you complain to FOS about PayPal they might just close your account.

ADD: when I made the purchase PayPal offered buyers protection for Gumtree purchases. They no longer do but as my claim was made after they removed the protections they won’t cover me. Seems they consider the protection rules at time of claim not time of purchase.

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Comments

  • [Deactivated] on 16/11/2017 - 10:47
    +28

    PayPal are scumbags. End of thread.

    • Oz8argain on 16/11/2017 - 16:31
      +2

      Elon moved on, we should too

  • CyberMurning on 16/11/2017 - 10:52
    +2

    agree lets go back to 1000 years ago - ie barter system face to face only. no cash involved.

    • bumblebeetuna on 16/11/2017 - 13:48
      +3

      I understand you're being facetious, but PayPal are a shitty company, and you don't need them to transact. I give them a few years before the new payment platform renders PayPal extinct. Good riddance to them when it happens.

  • seraphim2017 on 16/11/2017 - 11:08
    +4

    Paypal offer nothing paying by credit card doesn't. Avoid them unless compulsory (ebay), and vote with your wallet, less customers means less profit = reward for their practices.

    • Scab on 16/11/2017 - 12:04
      +3

      Paypal offer nothing paying by credit card doesn't.

      It's an extra layer of protection.

      • seraphim2017 on 16/11/2017 - 12:08
        +4

        whilst technically true, if they don't follow up by protecting you when you need it, does it really?

        Also, y giving paypal your details., they can (and in the past, have) taken money FROM my accounts during disputes to freeze, when I had to get the bank itself involved).

        SO, I'd argue that protections that aren't given, are worthless, and paypal can make you more vulnerable than just a card (where legislation protects you)

        • Scab on 16/11/2017 - 12:11

          if they don't follow up by protecting you when you need it, does it really?

          You can still do a chargeback, so you're always better off at least having the PayPal option.

          Plus there's free returns with PayPal.

          they can (and in the past, have) taken money FROM my accounts during disputes to freeze, when I had to get the bank itself involved)

          Which is why I don't confirm my bank account, only verify it.

          They can't take any money from it and can only ever debit my PayPal account, which never has any funds.

        • djones145 on 16/11/2017 - 14:35

          @Scab:
          Only thing they offer is ebay discounts and the ability to use Amex with no surcharge

          Oops responded to wrong person

      • wetsandwich on 16/01/2020 - 15:45

        Technically true, but credit card protection is very pro-consumer. Paypal is more of a coinflip based on whether or not Paypal or the seller will be out of the money.

    • Easton on 18/11/2017 - 13:34

      There can be some benefits… I'm no fan of PayPal, but companies like AGL and Sydney Water charge a surcharge when paying directly with a credit card, but have no surcharge when paying with PayPal, even if using an Amex card.

  • JimmyF on 16/11/2017 - 11:34
    +3

    2) email advising me my PayPal account was "limited" and when clicking the link found that it was limited permanently (as in i cant use it ever again)
    these emails were seconds apart so its obvious they are linked.

    You raised a complaint against them, so they have limited your account, to limit the exposure to this complaint/fraud/etc

    What was the outcome of the FOS complaint when they replied?

    Recently i was the victim of a scam

    More details

    • jimbobaus on 16/11/2017 - 12:39

      They didn’t limit… they said limit but logging into PayPal the account was closed.

      • JimmyF on 16/11/2017 - 13:36
        -1

        That sounds limited to me ;)

        Anyhow… The other questions raised. What was the outcome of the FOS and why/how did you get scammed?

        Or are you just coming here to paypal bash?

  • bobbified on 16/11/2017 - 11:35
    +3

    If you complain to FOS about PayPal they might just close your account.

    If you take anything out of their hands in terms of decision making, they'll limit or shut down your account.

    The people who have done credit card chargebacks (after Paypal has made a decision to rule against them) on disputed transactions would be able to tell you about their experiences.

    So I guess it's something extra to consider when deciding whether or not to take a dispute further after Paypal has made a ruling and decide how valuable the account is versus the amount in dispute.

    • Scab on 16/11/2017 - 12:06
      +1

      The people who have done credit card chargebacks (after Paypal has made a decision to rule against them) on disputed transactions would be able to tell you about their experiences.

      I've done two and never had an issue.

      Even had PayPal give me a credit when I didn't have any funds to give a customer a refund.

      It was only $7, but it was still good of them.

      • bobbified on 16/11/2017 - 14:12

        Wow - you must be one of the lucky ones!

        • Easton on 18/11/2017 - 13:35
          +1

          I did a $750 chargeback to PayPal – still have my account.

    • wetsandwich on 16/01/2020 - 15:45

      I did a $3500 chargeback a few years ago and still use paypal to this day.

  • HighAndDry on 16/11/2017 - 12:01

    They advised that my "purchase was not covered by buyers protection" which i accepted but asked why they didn't seek clarification form my side before making their decision.

    Their response seems to make sense to me - what clarification did they need to seek if you're not covered?

    • jimbobaus on 16/11/2017 - 12:28

      I accepted that it was not covered by their protections now so I emailed them to ask why they do not have a system in place that would request information from me etc. in the end I accepted that the money would not be returned but I wanted clarification as to how they can reject a claim without any information. In fact they did not even ask any questions as to the details of the purchase I made and simply rejected the claim without seeking info from me etc. I had a Very lengthy email communication with them regarding the purchase I made and was told that they have now removed buyers protection from gumtree. This took a long time to find out and PayPal even said … when you made your purchae we offered BP but we no longer do.

      The fact remained when the purchase was made the protections were being advertised. Their answer was that the rules apply when the claim is made not when the purchase was made. I disputed this fact which is why I went to the FOS

      • HighAndDry on 16/11/2017 - 12:32
        +4

        they have now removed buyers protection from gumtree. This took a long time to find out and PayPal even said … when you made your purchae we offered BP but we no longer do.

        Might want to edit your post to include this information. That makes your objection a lot more reasonable.

        • jimbobaus on 16/11/2017 - 12:34
          +1

          Have updated it.
          Thanks for the suggestion.

        • HighAndDry on 16/11/2017 - 12:36
          +5

          @jimbobaus:

          No no, the important part is that Paypal HAD purchaser protection for Gumtree when you made the purchase, but removed it at the time of your claim.

          I actually agree with you - it should be the status at the time of the purchase/transaction that matters, not the time of the claim.

      • JimmyF on 16/11/2017 - 13:38
        -2

        I accepted that it was not covered by their protections now so I emailed them to ask why they do not have a system in place that would request information from me etc.

        Why would they? Your purchase wasn't covered for protection, so no refund will be offered, regardless of what extra information you can provide.

        • [Deactivated] on 16/11/2017 - 19:01
          +2

          Stop kissing Paypal's ass. They're a cancerous company and I look forward to the day they shut down.

        • JimmyF on 16/11/2017 - 22:04

          @nurries: I don't disagree they are cancerous, but they have clear rules for refunds. Just like credit cards.

  • smashed on 16/11/2017 - 12:23
    +4

    Sorry, this may sound harsh but as far as I can tell this is the story?

    You raised a dispute so I assume that you provided your logic at this point.
    Paypal then checked and presumably found that you were not covered (which you accepted yourself).
    They therefore refused to pay for your mistake in a scam (why should they foot the bill?)

    You then raised a dispute with the ombudsman having said yourself that you were not covered.

    If I was PayPal I would block you, just the same way that I would block a buyer if they did something stupid to me as an Ebay seller.

    Aside from that, how were you scammed exactly?

    People often jump on threads on here buying items at stupid ebay prices and say "Paypal will refund me" even though it is 100% obvious that the listing is a hacked account. That just pushes up Paypal fees next year for others.

    • jimbobaus on 16/11/2017 - 12:31

      I agree.
      Yes I accepted the fact it wasn’t covered but according to PayPal when I made my purchae they did offer protection which has since been withdrawn. They state that the protection rules are considered as date of claim not date of purchae. So because they removed them since my purchase they do not apply.

      I did not go to the fos for a refund. I went to the fos to force them to clarify their policy and to justify why I was never asked for any information or evidence regarding my claim. They simply rejected it without questioning me.

      • smashed on 16/11/2017 - 12:33
        +2

        I am very confused.

        The most pertinent information , paypal changed their rules after my purchase was omitted from your first post.

        Do you have any record to show that these rules changed? What were the rules?

        You would surely have a case in this scenario.

        • jimbobaus on 16/11/2017 - 12:35

          The email conversation from PayPal.

          Yes we did offer protections at that time, however we no longer offer buyer protection for gumtree transactions and as such your purchae is not covered.

        • joungs on 16/11/2017 - 12:59

          @jimbobaus:
          When was your purchase? They haven't had buyer protection on gumtree for a few months at least. What sort of scam takes that long?

  • smashed on 16/11/2017 - 12:35

    ps: Is this Paypal protection or Ebay protection?

    Was it an Ebay purchase or elsewhere?

    • jimbobaus on 16/11/2017 - 12:37

      PayPal protection
      Gumtree purchase
      When I made the purchase they stayed they had buyers protection. They have since removed it and they consider the protection rules at time of claim not time of purchase.

  • smashed on 16/11/2017 - 12:39

    https://community.ebay.com.au/t5/Buying/GUMTREE/td-p/1725199

    Allegedly buyer protection was removed almost 3 years ago.
    Are you sure that you were ever protected?

    Same thing said in 2016..
    https://www.prospectingaustralia.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?…

    • jimbobaus on 16/11/2017 - 12:41

      Cut and paste below: (from my email convo with PayPal)

      PayPal buyers protection was removed from Guntree on July 1st 2017.

      If you go to gumtree they now even get you to add your PayPal account so people can see if you accept PayPal as payment.

      • smashed on 16/11/2017 - 12:45

        How do you know this? Can you find a link? It would greatly help your case.

        • jimbobaus on 16/11/2017 - 12:47

          I have submitted everything including PayPal emails to FOS.
          I am literally at stage one. The FOS contacted PayPal. They replied to me and then limited my account. So will just wait and see but PayPal is refusing to reinstate the account and have said they won’t even if my claim through fos is successful.

          It’s clearly a direct response to my raising the complaint.
          I complain
          They close the account. (They call it a permanent limitation)

      • jimbobaus on 16/11/2017 - 12:49

        Here is the cut and paste (edited out my name)

        Yes xxxxx I can confirm that Buyers Protection was offered on Gumtree Transactions until July 1st 2017. As your claim under this program was lodged after this date (August 27th 2017) we are unable to consider the claim under this program.

        • Ace Ventura on 16/11/2017 - 13:10

          So you purchased the item before July 1st, but didn't make a claim until 27 august? did it take 8 weeks in the post or were you a bit slow on the claim?

      • JimmyF on 16/11/2017 - 13:41

        PayPal buyers protection was removed from Guntree on July 1st 2017.

        Ok

        If you go to gumtree they now even get you to add your PayPal account so people can see if you accept PayPal as payment.

        and?

        Paying by paypal as payment doesn't automatically mean you "PayPal buyers protection" as you seem to think.

  • smashed on 16/11/2017 - 12:52
    +1

    Curiously the buyer protection policy doesn't seem to mention Gumtree or similar…(and this was last revised in April)

    https://www.paypalobjects.com/webstatic/en_AT/ua/pdf/buyerpr…

    Neither does the web link

    https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#…

  • [Deactivated] on 16/11/2017 - 13:04

    Each time my dispute has gone to the FOS with PayPal they gave me $100.

    • smashed on 16/11/2017 - 13:22

      Each time? What on earth are you doing to get in that state tuzii?

      • [Deactivated] on 16/11/2017 - 14:11

        It’s always been about them holding my money for 21 days

  • tsunamisurfer on 16/11/2017 - 14:26
    +6

    Can we please change the title of this thread to : TIP : Bon't buy anything from Gumtree unless its in cash and pick up.

  • Quantumcat on 16/11/2017 - 15:25
    +2

    Why are Gumtree allowed to get away with advertising buy safely using PayPal when in fact it's the definition of unsafe (your claim will be rejected whatever the merits, and they slug the seller a fee as well for the non-existent service).

  • CheapskateQueen on 16/11/2017 - 22:45

    Make sure you really make clear to the ombudsman that when you purchased the item and used PayPal as the payment method, Paypal represented that you had buyers protection.

    They can't just be like oh nah we changed our minds and now we won't cover it.

  • [Deactivated] on 17/11/2017 - 07:12

    Pretty sure FOS have a 40 day lead time before they will do anything. Has this time elapsed yet?

  • 82Degrees on 27/12/2017 - 04:17
    +1

    Op should of raised another dispute with the Ombudsman for Paypal limiting the account in retaliation, which is clearly not allowed.

    FYI Paypal gets billed a few hundred dollars for the Ombudsman's time every time someone lodges a complaint. Smart thing to do is complain MORE, not less. Especially when you're getting ripped off by paypal.

  • andysa on 15/01/2020 - 10:54

    Wow! old thread, but this comes up in a google search.

    Typical monopoly Paypal, the only way to fight them is join them and buy some ebay shares (Paypal is owned by eBay).

    • wetsandwich on 16/01/2020 - 15:47
      +1

      It hasn't been owned by ebay for years..

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