Undergrad Interested in Med School

LToliba9 on 12/05/2018 - 11:42

I am an undergrad student studying Politics and am set to finish my degree by the end of 2019. I've been looking at prospective job opportunities, but have slowly become uninterested with the majority of my degree's field aside from a couple of minor specialisations. I then noticed that, should I pass a application process, I could be admitted to medical school. At first thought, this greatly interests me, however I have essentially no history in medical science and only superficially know the medical school program and what a medical profession entails.

I intend on participating in a drop-in session to discuss my questions, but I was hoping someone would have first-hand experience, personal opinions etc on the post-grad study/medical field that they could share to me either for or against pursuing study and a career.

Cheers!

Poll Options

  • 21
    Do it
  • 62
    Don't do it
Education & Work

Comments

  • smuggler on 12/05/2018 - 11:49
    -5

    Very few people like you make it through the selection process.

    If you want to be competitive in med you need a PHD or some type of research degree. Are you interested?

    Hours are pretty shitty too. 7 AM to 7-8 PM usually in your first 4 years out of med school. Doesn't get any better too.

    • Toliba9 on 12/05/2018 - 11:58
      +1

      The degree I was noticed was a 'Doctor of Medicine and Surgery' at ANU, which based on first look and superficial research I would be very interested. Any more info would be appreciated on the process!

      • chrisd262 on 12/05/2018 - 14:24
        +4

        Entry to Post Grad Medicine is based on an Undergrad Degree. A PhD etc is not needed. Usually entry is from a Bachelor of Medical Science or similar but not always. There is an interview process based on why you want to do Medicine etc. Depends on where you are there a a number of less known Programs - Uni of Newcastle, Western Sydney and now Notre Damme all registered with the AMA.

        • shaybisc on 12/05/2018 - 16:20
          +5

          Could you image- a phd to get into med school- specialists would be 45 years old before they're qualified.

        • scotty on 12/05/2018 - 19:43
          +3

          @shaybisc: Personally know someone who finished a PhD in medical science related field, went back to med school to finish an MD and now works in the hospital. Definitely doable before 35 :P

        • smuggler on 12/05/2018 - 19:55
          +2

          I meant in the medical field. Not for the degree.

          Most specialists around the city have some type of research behind them. There are tooo many doctors vying for positions at big hospitals. Research quality separates them.

        • smuggler on 12/05/2018 - 19:58

          @scotty:

          I was referring to getting a PHD during or after the medical degree. I didn't mean that it was a prerequisite.

        • fossilfuel on 12/05/2018 - 20:33

          @smuggler: A PhD may be helpful in getting into the more competitive medicine specialities like pediatrics or ophthalmology.

      • avidd on 12/05/2018 - 16:46
        +13

        Toliba, good to hear you are considering applying for medicine.

        From my perspective as a doctor (undergrad, multiple years out and currently in specialty training), it can be a very rewarding career with many positives, but also considerable sacrifices and a opportunity cost involved. Definitely not trying to put you off but it's important to have an idea of what you're getting into and whether that's the right choice for you (+/- partner etc).

        After the whole process of getting accepted to the degree, you have 4-6 years of medical school where you're essentially trained to be a junior doctor (and must be supervised while working in a hospital). As a junior doctor there are 2-3 years (minimum) of internship and residency where you work in a hospital rotating around different areas to gain experience. Only after that you apply to competitive training programs to get a place in a specialty (GP/Medical/Surgical/Other etc). These training programs could be anywhere between 3-6 years etc and many people do not get on on their first attempt (or multiple in the case of very comptetitive fields like cardiology or surgery). There may be post graduate exams too which may require a full year of study etc just to be ready to attempt. When you finish all that - you get your 'letters' and can work independently.

        Each year as a junior doctor you have to reapply to get a new job, even if its at the same hospital. Like someone mentioned before - the hours can be pretty terrible at times and you will miss out of time with your family/events with friends because of late finishes/rostered evenings, nights and weekends etc.

        Not trying to paint it too much in a negative light - I very much enjoy my job and wouldn't have picked anything else but these are some things I wish someone had made very clear at the start.

        If you have any questions I'm happy for you to PM me.

        • Toliba9 on 12/05/2018 - 17:59

          Thanks heaps for all the info, absolutely wanted to hear both sides of arguments (for & against) so I can try to weigh up the costs and benefits. Just wondering, you mention that it's tough to balance work and life, have you yourself got into a rhythm? Do you think once a residency or even a specialisation is completed this balance gets better and you sacrifice less of your life outside of work?

        • fossilfuel on 12/05/2018 - 20:36

          These training programs could be anywhere between 3-6 years etc and many people do not get on on their first attempt (or multiple in the case of very comptetitive fields like cardiology or surgery).

          I'm thinking of going down the postgrad route in a few years time then specialising. How long should you be working as a resident before applying for entry into a specialty? How competitive is it to get into emergency or emergency paeds medicine? I've very interested in those two fields.

        • thetownfool on 12/05/2018 - 21:56

          @fossilfuel:

          I can only speak as a surgical trainee, but critical care (emergency/ICU/Anaesthetics) is generally seen as easier to get in to. If you want to do ED and you're competent (just from reading your replies I'd say you are) you'll be fine to get in to ED training, and probably a very good ED doctor. Paeds I can't comment on, but it depends if you want to include paeds or work solely in paeds. Not that many junior doctors want to do ED. You get hammered by patients, arrogant sub-specialities who expect you to have their level of knowledge about everything that walks in the door, and admin wondering why your beds and waiting room are full. The financial rewards pale in comparison to your colleagues, but the hours are shift based and a lot more manageable.

        • thetownfool on 12/05/2018 - 22:04
          +1

          @Toliba9:

          Once you're a consultant you can largely define how hard you want to work. I have some consultant surgeons who only work 4 days a week. In training the work life balance is tough, but you get used to it, especially as your colleagues will be doing the same sort of thing. There's a lot of non-hospital based work that uses up your hours as well. Research projects and additional degrees or diplomas to try and get on to specialty training, conferences, compulsory training courses etc. Then comes the exams…

          You can do training in specialties which require minimal out of hours or are shift based without overtime, so even if you work nights your total hours per week isn't outrageous. GP/Pathology/ED and some others may be something to consider. In general though if you absolutely hate the thought of unpredictable overtime, weekend and night shifts and being on call, medicine probably isn't the career path for you.

          TLDR: You do get used to the hours and it becomes normal after a while

        • fossilfuel on 12/05/2018 - 22:07

          @thetownfool: Thanks mate for the excellent advice! Workplace politics and lesser pay aside, I think emergency will be very rewarding in the end.

          What made you pick surgery apart from the other specialisations?

          All the best for your career too mate, you'll make a brilliant surgeon :D

        • Toliba9 on 12/05/2018 - 22:19

          @thetownfool: Thanks for all of the insight!

        • thetownfool on 13/05/2018 - 10:21
          +1

          @fossilfuel:

          I chose surgery because I like the procedural side of medicine, vs the thinking side (although it clearly involves both). Finishing my ward round at 2pm after slowly seeing X patients and adjusting their medications again was not for me. Very rewarding to operate on someone and see them the next day fixed and happy (even if a bit sore). Plus in my specialty we get to use robots!

          Emergency is great, I could never do it or GP because there are some parts of medicine I have no interest in and never really wanted to study. You really do have to be a jack of all trades. Still you end up one of the most pragmatic and generally useful doctors around the hospital and in the outside world.

        • wiselyfoolish on 13/05/2018 - 10:33
          +9

          If I were to give advise to my children, I’d tell them NOT to be a doctor as a career. There are more sacrifices that perks in this profession that you have to consider carefully if it is worth it.

          First of all is the time spent, once you graduate from medical school is the beginning of your medical journey. You still have to spend an equivalent timeframe or more in training to a certain specialty (even becoming a GP is a specialty). Since you have spent nearly a quarter of your life studying, this is an opportunity cost. Your colleagues who did accounting, commerce or even art would have earnt and saved a decent amount of money for house etc etc by the time you are ready as a professional. Plus, you still have a massive HECS debt to pay.

          Second, it’s a thankless profession. While we try our best to help serve people, patients and other colleagues too don’t give two hoots about you as long as you do as they want. You are in the emergency department sorting out 5 patients referred to you in 15 minutes and still you have the consultants and emergency doctors and nurses harrassing you to see their patients. When you do get to see the patient, they are already pissed off at you for taking too long. My heart sinks when people are manipulative. Patients present multiple times in order to jump the queue to get their operation sooner, or pull a Ryan’s rule so that they can make a complaint (tha’s not the purpose of Ryan’s rule), or they come in with their 10 luggage bags of clothes because they really prefer to stay in a hospital which will provide them free accomodation and food. People just want things for themselves, yet they will not care if you are sick or going through a stressful divorce. I have my own colleagues tell me I am not good enough if I show any form of weakness and that I shouldn’t be in the specialty I want to be in.

          Thirdly, it puts a lot of stress on relationships. Especially to people who don’t understand the type of work involved. I’ve gone through countless relationships because they couldn’t handle me being essentially married to my job.

          Think carefully if the sacrifice is worth it

        • Black Brown Blue on 13/05/2018 - 18:06

          @wiselyfoolish: interesting to hear the other side of the story. Thanks for your input. I really appreciate all the work docs put in especially at the hospitals and ED departments.

        • avidd on 13/05/2018 - 18:19
          +1

          @fossilfuel:

          How hard it is to get into a specialty really depends on how competitive the specialty is and how hard you are willing to work/how much of your life you're willing to sacrifice.

          One year of internship is mandatory for general registration. Most specialties require at least one more year before you can apply to be a registrar, but emergency medicine is one of the easier training programs to get into (could easily start training in your 3rd or 4th year out if you're keen). Not sure about Paeds ED though.

          I know of people who have applied for orthopaedic or plastic surgery 4-5+ times before getting on (many also give up before that point).

        • avidd on 13/05/2018 - 18:25
          +1

          @thetownfool:

          While not as extreme as surgery, Anaesthetics is very competitive as well - much more than ICU or ED.

          Many of my colleagues have moved interstate/given up on trying to get in/trying for their 2nd and 3rd times.

        • EtherealArchelon on 16/05/2018 - 01:19

          @fossilfuel:
          ACEM (college of ED) just changed its rule for entrance so it will no longer be a walk in the park to get in. It used to literally be "pay us money, you're in!" but now there's a time component, you have to be 'supported' by two consultants, there's an interview… and you'll only be able to apply in your 4th year out which makes you much older to graduate…

      • nikey2k27 on 14/05/2018 - 07:33

        Apply many medical schools really hard to get into. Why do you want to become a doc? or surgery? I have many friends that surgery and few dr friends it really a shit job. I live with them well study at JCU.

    • outlander on 12/05/2018 - 17:57
      -2

      Don't know why you're being negged, medicine is very very hard. You need to have a strong passion to make it far (and usually an inferiority complex that drives you to seek the validation of a white coat)

      • fossilfuel on 12/05/2018 - 20:41
        +1

        Because the answer given is incorrect. You DON'T need a PhD or research to be competitive. I know people who made it in with very high GPAs/WAM after completing their undergraduate (with no honours or research component). Research helps, so does life experience/previous work experience, but isn't essential.

        Making it through the selection process depends on many factors; academic, life skills, extracurricular activities, sporting etc which contributes to a stronger portfolio and diversity of experience. It's not dependent solely on academic merit.

        • outlander on 12/05/2018 - 21:00

          I'm afraid I don't understand you. Competitive =/= just getting in

        • thetownfool on 12/05/2018 - 21:19
          +2

          @outlander:

          The reason for the neg is the incorrect comment. Almost no one had a PhD or other research degree in my medical year, maybe one year of honours for some. Very few of the junior doctors I've worked with in training (in my 10th and final year now) have PhDs. Some, including myself, have masters degrees obtained after graduating - you need it to get on to specialty training after residency. Everything fossilfuel said is correct. GPA/WAM + GAMSAT score + interview (which focused on many non-medical aspects), although it varies by med school.

          But then I'm guessing many of those talking about how hard medical school and training is probably haven't actually done it?

        • fossilfuel on 12/05/2018 - 21:21

          @outlander: Yes, even after graduating and working as an intern/resident, you don't need a PhD or research to be remain competitive in medicine whether it be securing a specialist training position or moving to a consultant role. It might make you more competitive compared to other applicants, however it's not a necessity in moving up the ranks.

    • Georgevic on 13/05/2018 - 02:01

      Every single person I know who is doing/has done med entered from a Bachelor's degree..

  • [Deactivated] on 12/05/2018 - 11:58

    That's a pretty big change. Do you have much science in your background? I think you run the risk of getting smoked in chemistry by other students and getting only the lesser job opportunities.

    • Toliba9 on 12/05/2018 - 12:11

      Not much at all to be honest, which is why I am very hesitant. But that definitely makes sense, if it's between someone with the same post-grad qualifications and has a science under-grad background or me, I know who I'd choose. Thanks for the solid point.

      • [Deactivated] on 12/05/2018 - 12:23

        I don't want to scare you off :) and my information might be two decades old and Uni of Melb, but the first year Med students had to hit the ground running very hard compared to all the other slacker degrees (by comparison, and actual). There have been some changes and more of an interview selection process since those times, but the academic study and cramming machines in Med made it flat out from the start, and horror story inspiring. :) I would probably have a look at standard school prerequisites and buy those textbooks in your spare time trying to catch up. I'm only in science/engineering, not med, but shared subjects with med students (study robots). They were next level exhausted :)

        • Toliba9 on 12/05/2018 - 13:20

          Hah yes from the sounds of it I would definitely have to adapt my study habits… Great idea with the prereq textbooks though, if I decide to pursue it further that will be on the top of my list of prep.

  • HA on 12/05/2018 - 12:35
    +1

    If you are interested in it, go for it. Most undergraduate medical schools just require UMAT score, good previous university grades and a good interview result. I would recommend this route if you are coming from a non-science background as you'll pretty much be starting fresh (even with others who are from yr 12). I actually did this myself and now in my 4th year.

    On the other hand if you are considering on doing a post-graduate course (like at Melbourne Uni), you'll need to sit the GAMSAT which is heavily based on sciences, so it will be hard if you don't have a background. On top of this post graduate courses generally are 1 year shorter so you will need to get up to speed real quick.

    Fell free to PM me if you need any help :)

    • Toliba9 on 12/05/2018 - 13:26

      Cheers for the info, starting to look possible as long as I'm dedicated and begin catching up ASAP hah. How are you finding Med school so far?

      • HA on 12/05/2018 - 14:26

        It's actually really really greats! :)
        Are you planning on applying for next year?

        • Toliba9 on 12/05/2018 - 14:44
          +1

          Awesome to hear! Maybe in a year and a half… I have a lot to consider hahah.

          • HA on 06/02/2020 - 00:40

            @Toliba9: How'd you go mate?

  • wordplay on 12/05/2018 - 12:40
    +4

    just start studying for the umat or gamsat and see if you can get in.

  • SydStrand on 12/05/2018 - 14:21
    +2

    If you're trying to enter as a postgrad, check which schools require prerequisites. You might need to do some non-degree study during summer/winter and they're not covered by HECS. But even if the school doesn't require them, extra non-degree study is another line on your CV, shows commitment, and will ease you into science.

    At first thought, this greatly interests me, however I have essentially no history in medical science and only superficially know the medical school program and what a medical profession entails.

    So why do you want to do it? Think about it from the perspective of the school. Every year they get thousands of bright kids applying, many of whom have been working towards it all their life between study, volunteering, picking right subjects, etc. You on the other hand, can't demonstrate any background or interest in science or medicine, so why should they consider you?

    I don't mean to sound harsh, but entry is very competitive and you clearly haven't thought this through. Before presuming to ask what the entry process is, read up on the career trajectories, work-life balance, etc., and decide if it's right for you before potentially wasting time and money throwing yourself at the wall. Also, the most important question: what are your grades like? You have another three semesters to improve your GPA, but your school grades are now immovable in case you were considering undergrad entry.

    • chrisd262 on 12/05/2018 - 14:25
      -3

      I think the only undergrad Medicine program is offered at UNSW???

    • Toliba9 on 12/05/2018 - 14:42
      +1

      My initial questions were actually largely asking for anyone's experience in studying/practicing medicine as a part of my preliminary consideration of the field; I wasn't entirely focused upon the entry process. But you are correct, I'd need to be fully committed and particularly be able to demonstrate this if I do decide to pursue it

      • SydStrand on 12/05/2018 - 16:49

        Fair enough, I just think you need to understand that medicine isn't something people happen to just fall into. I know a few who desperately want in, but weren't realistic, and put their lives on hold redoing UMAT/GAMSAT and applying, as if their grades appreciated in value. It doesn't, and each year pushes out more grads with newer and shinier diplomas who are applying for the same number of slots.

        My advice is to read up and decide if it's for you, because the entry process alone is long and expensive: start studying and registering for UMAT/GAMSAT (hundreds), and consider non-degree study because of your background (thousands), all while maximising the GPA with your current degree.

  • jzdhgkd on 12/05/2018 - 15:58
    +3

    I studied post-grad med at the uni of sydney and graduated recently in 2015.

    In my cohort there were people from all backgrounds from the usual medsci/pharmacy/physio all the way to engineering/law/mathematics. Everyone's a doctor in the end and from the first year they tell us some 97% of the cohort will graduate. The 3% generally leave for personal reasons or being disenchanted with medicine but it's almost unheard of someone not being able to graduate due to failing exams.

    Given your lack of science background I imagine you'd have a pretty rough time with the gamsat (chem/phys/bio accounted for 50% of your total mark during my time) and the first year of uni especially is brutal on non-science background people. But like I said everyone is a doctor in the end so if you're capable of putting your head down and learning new material then I think you'll be okay.

    After graduation NSW guarantees a 2 year contract for internship + residency (for domestic students) but I don't know what the situation is like in other states.

    After residency though everything changes. If you're going down the general practice pathway then it's not so competitive but if you want to do anything else you'll have a hard few years ahead of you. You're competing against some of the brightest minds in Australia for only a few training spots and burn out is a very real thing when you're working 60-80hrs/week plus trying to study for exams on top of that. And then some of the crazy ones decide to get pregnant and have a child in the middle of it all while working and studying! I have no idea how they do it but massive kudos to them.

    Overall though I love what I do and pretty much all of my colleagues feel the same way.

    • Toliba9 on 12/05/2018 - 16:10

      That's actually an impressively high completion rate, not at all what I would have expected. It does sound like a tough career, but very rewarding and worth the effort. Thanks :)

      • fossilfuel on 12/05/2018 - 20:45
        +1

        but it's almost unheard of someone not being able to graduate due to failing exams

        Med students get many chances in their exams because they're hard. If they don't pass the first time, there's opportunity to take them again. A mate of mine was allowed to take a med exam up to 3 times. They want you to pass.

      • kingmw on 13/05/2018 - 11:53

        Meds school do most of the screening before they allow students to start, therefore the high completion rates. Also universities lose government funding if too many fail/or do not complete so there is also a tendency to help students through (even if sometimes this may not be suitable).

        • MessyG on 13/05/2018 - 22:22

          This. The GAMSAT really really really weeds people out.

  • EightImmortals on 12/05/2018 - 16:37
    +7

    According to most of the doctors I know personally "RUN THE OTHER WAY FAST!"

    • avidd on 12/05/2018 - 16:47

      haha this is essentially a TLDR summary of long reply I just made above!@

  • thetownfool on 12/05/2018 - 21:13
    +4

    I finished med school some time ago now (2008), but did study post-graduate. If you can do well in GAMSAT (I assume the applications and admissions work in a similar manner) you should be able to apply at any number of the schools as long as you fit their other selection criteria. Plenty of people I know came from non-science courses - music, history, maths. They still make great doctors, but definitely struggled more with the physiology and basic sciences components at the beginning. After about the second year it really all evened out, and by the time we started as interns it was the quality of the person that reflected how they were as a doctor.

    Our med school really didn't fail people (some had to repeat the year), but eventually almost everyone gets through. Which isn't always a good thing, but it does mean the main barriers in medicine are getting in to med school and then getting in to your specialty training.

    If you're interested - go for it. I find it rewarding and couldn't dream of being happier doing much else (that I'm actually capable of doing). It is tough work, with long hours but I think it would be naive of me to think it was tougher than any number of other fields. Financially very stable - once you finish your pay rate rapidly increases per year and you have good employment prospects, although some subspecialties, especially in the cities, can be hard to train and then find public appointments in. It's also worth mentioning that if you are female, you will face greater challenges than male doctors in training. I say this as a male who is acutely aware that my female colleagues are treated differently to me - by senior doctors, nurses, patients. Not to discourage any female from applying (it's the only way the system changes), but to potentially prepare you for it.

    Finally, as someone in their final year of specialty training, I'd advise you to consider what you want to do early. Despite what everyone above has said about difficulty getting in, med school placements have pretty much doubled in the last 10 years, so it is actually easier now than ever before.However it does mean there is a massive logjam after internship and residency where lots more junior doctors are applying for the same number of training positions as a decade ago. Getting involved with people in your chosen area early makes a massive difference - just hope you don't pick wrong!

    • fossilfuel on 12/05/2018 - 21:26

      Good advice and thanks for the writeup. I'm thinking about taking that route in a few years time i.e post-grad study. How difficult is it to get into specialty training in emergency medicine?

      • jzdhgkd on 13/05/2018 - 22:36

        From what I've gathered from friends and colleagues - getting into emergency medicine training isn't too challenging depending on the hospital but the final exams will ruin your life.

    • Toliba9 on 12/05/2018 - 22:11

      Yes, thank you very much for the info. Most of the people commenting from a medical background seem to be very passionate about their career and it's awesome to hear… and it's good to hear it's not too late for me to change disciplines!

  • chumlee on 12/05/2018 - 22:07

    Q. What did the PhD student say to the plumber?

    A. Would you like fries with your burger Sir?

  • Pentanol on 12/05/2018 - 22:24

    If you're a woman, I'll really reconsider it. My wife is 31 and still studying (final year to be become a consultant). It's true what other doctors above have said, you're treated differently and even bullied if they can sense weakness and lack of willingness to stand for yourself. As a husband I considered confronting each of those bullies to give them a stern warning - haha let that be a warning to any of the doctors above who bullies woman, there is always a husband who can snap at any point and come after you!

    Overall, if the study doesn't kill you, the job will as the number of doctors committing suicide can attest and I'm sure you would have heard about the more recent case, Chloe Abbott whom my wife worked with briefly. You need to have a very strong skin, ability to work long hours without it affecting your performance, dealing with toxic people which sometimes mean you can't report them, sexual harassment, good ass kissing abilities (to consultants), by the time you finish studying if you don't have a partner you'll be competing against younger and hotter women.

    • MessyG on 13/05/2018 - 22:21

      Things are changing though. Yes it's harder for women in the field (I am always shocked when I come onto OzB and read comments like 'sexism doesn't exist in the workplace anymore' - hah!), but just look at neurosurg and ortho - previously zero women, now they're fighting their way on. No diversity clauses, no mandatory employing, they are literally fighting their way in and it's been amazing to watch. I will say you've got to have a hell of a lot of fight in you as a woman in this job and eventually that fight burns itself out. At which stage is very individual. One of my friends worked with Chloe too but I don't think it's fair to say that the suicide issue is female only - there's been a few guys in the last couple of years too. :/

  • glutamic on 13/05/2018 - 09:43
    +2

    I'll give you the same advice I got and wished I listened to; don't do it. Getting into a training program is getting ridiculous especially if you want to do surgery,ophthal,derm etc hell even GP is getting somewhat competitive.

  • megasaur on 13/05/2018 - 12:40

    Do you think you like science? Probably hard to know if you haven't done any before.. But putting aside what it means to be a doctor lifestyle wise and how difficult it is etc, to practice medicine essentially means you are a scientist, using science/scientific principles to practice evidence based medicine. You need to like it imo, it's not just something "you need to study to become a doctor".
    Disclaimer: not a human doctor but a veterinarian

  • eldudebrothers on 13/05/2018 - 12:56
    +3

    GP here, a career in medicine is very difficult and the climate is getting extremely competitive so make sure you know what you are getting yourself into. However, saying that, I love what I do and would choose to do this even if I won the lottery tomorrow.

  • [Deactivated] on 13/05/2018 - 13:22

    With a background in politics and medicine, you should be a dermatologist. You'll know grafting in every sense of the word.

  • blackorange on 13/05/2018 - 14:40
    +2

    I did undergrad med because my parents thought it would be a good career for me. I had zero interest in medicine at the time so dawdled through med school enjoying life and not working hard - then reality hit when I became an intern. I took a year off and came back to medicine, ultimately choosing to specialise in intensive care which I finished 10 years after I finished med school. I had no idea what commitment the field of medicine required when I started, but also no idea of the reward from human interaction and the job satisfaction. I’ve also struggled along the way with burnout and motivation through the long arduous training, I think this is pretty common if not universal for the long training programs. As others have commented, it is harder if you are female or a non-typical demographic, but you can do it if that is what you want.

    • eldudebrothers on 13/05/2018 - 17:44

      I have a few mates who are in your position but still in training as ICU reg's. One wants to quit medicine entirely and the other is keen on going into GP, what advice do you have for them?

  • Icecold5000 on 13/05/2018 - 19:06

    Good luck

  • yellowleaf on 13/05/2018 - 19:54

    I think having a vision of what you want after med school can help with your decision a little.

    I'd recommend at this point to read around the different specialities (even broadly like surgical vs physician vs GP vs non-clinical like pathology/radiology) and speak to doctors from the different areas to see if you can get a feel for what a medical career is like. Shadow someone in the clinic/wards for a week if you can, see if you like what you see. This is something that I wish I did before I decided on the career.

    I entered med school without a clear goal other than being doctor and once I finished intern year and my colleagues were mapping out pathways onto their desired specialities, it's really been a bit like wandering in the wilderness for me. When things get hard and it will (ie. long shifts + lack of sleep + missing out on holidays/life + hospital politics + hostile colleagues/patients), not having an end goal will make it very difficult to endure the bad side of medicine. With regards to job prospects, speciality training is ultra-competitive these days and half-assing is not going to cut it when you're against people who've wanted to be neurosurgeons/cardiologists from the day they were born.

    But as with every job, there's also a lot of good things in medicine and many people do find it a fulfilling career and love what they do. The journey is long with a lot of studying/sacrifices but the knowledge and skills worthwhile. It really comes down to what you see and want for your future. Regardless, I wish you the best OP!

  • MessyG on 13/05/2018 - 22:10
    +16

    Please don't listen to the people who say you need a PhD or a strong science background. They might make your life a bit easier but they're not necessary. Here is my experience - no one can tell you if this is the right choice but yourself, and you'll receive a lot of advice not to do it, but only you can and will know deep down if it's right for you.

    I have an arts degree. No science past year 10 (delinquent teenager!). I loved my first degree but hated corporate Australia and how strangely devoid of humanity it was, and decided to do medicine. The GAMSAT is the great leveller here, I got out year 11, 12, and first year uni level chem and physics textbooks and worked my arse off. Did the Des O'Neil prep course. Got into USyd. At the time it was about 10-15% arts grads, everyone else had science backgrounds. For the first year I was often the dumbest person in the room and it was tough. I was top of the class in my first degree and bottom of the class initially in the second. The hours were long, way longer than an arts degree, and plenty of people there were ridiculously clever - it was an incredibly humbling experience. And yet, I made the best friends of my life there. Learning medicine is like trying to drink from a firehouse, there is a dizzying array of physiology, pathophysiology, histopathology, anatomy etc etc - and the field is changing all the time, and you have to stay on top of it. The exams are long and go for days.

    By the end of second year I was on par with my peers and doing pretty well in exams - not top of the class but I wanted a life too. Topping med school is a little bit of a hollow victory, it doesn't help you as much as you think it does, and if you peak too early, you burn out with little to show for your troubles! Third and fourth year were fantastic, we were in the hospitals, learning at the bedside, and in fourth year I got a scholarship to SE Asia for elective which was awesome.

    Internship and residency were rough. 8-6 job, 16 hour shifts twice a week, at a megahospital. Saw some horrible stuff. Bullying is rife but you don't see it at the time, it's just 'the culture' (it's a bit better now). You feel stupid most of the time, but if you front up to fight another day and are generally friendly and do you work, it takes you far. I loved my surgical term and the head of department offered to get me on the program but I was older and I wanted kids and didn't have the money or the family support to blaze through like some women have with their families and nannies at the ready! I decided to do physician training (which isn't quite as bad) which was just next level hard in terms of job responsibility - 3 weeks after being a resident I was the only doctor on at night for a large regional hospital, for 7 nights in a row, with two days off, then back to the day job. 3 months after being a resident I was on-call for 3 hospitals across a large large area of country. It was terrifying. You are responsible for people's lives. You don't just make people better, you are responsible for what happens to them. What happens to someones Mum or Dad, sister or brother. Had a baby during training and sat the RACP exams when baby was small and it nearly broke me. I got through them, a few colleagues across the hospital networks committed suicide and after everything I decided to go part time for a little while for advanced training (medical specialty training). I've got a year left until I'm a specialist in a field I love but in no hurry now - it's been a long and semi-traumatic road which is very hard to put into words and you can never go into specifics anyway.

    It's been indescribably hard - but I love my job. Virchow (a German physician from the 1800s) once said that 'physicians are the attorneys of the poor'. You will meet people from all walks of life and you will care for them. Any prejudices you may have had about groups of people will be obliterated by caring for them, by being challenged by them, by sitting with their grieving families. You will be frustrated by them, you will go through times when you wonder why you did medicine at all when it seems like everyone is hell bent on killing themselves with smokes, drugs, food, poor decisions etc etc, and there will be times when you leap out your door to get to work because you make the best friends of your life. You will be assaulted. I've been punched in the face, I've been verbally abused, and many colleagues have suffered worse - but you do grow a thick skin. Don't do this job if you want a peaceful and straightforward life. You will miss so many family milestones and social occasions over your training time.

    In terms of jobs - it's pretty bad out there right now. You have two options. Either you kill yourself to be 'best of the best' (translation: whoever stays at work the longest without every complaining wins - slippery slope to the suicide track), or, you decide to do the unpopular, not sexy, 'soft', or loser jobs that the type-A snobs look down on. Fun fact though, back in the 70s, plastic surgery was seen as a 'loser specialty', because it was new! So if you're willing to be friendly, actually care about people, and do the jobs that aren't prestigious - at this stage you'll be okay. Things are going to get worse before they get better though - too many medical schools, not enough consultant jobs.

    So again i can't tell you if this is the right choice. I'm someone who operates on intuition first and when i woke up that day and decided to do medicine, I just couldn't get it out of my head. It made no sense, I had no science, people told me I shouldn't do it, that I was good at 'humanities' but it was the first thing I thought about when I woke up, and the last thing when I went to bed. I love learning new stuff. And I learned so much science for the GAMSAT, even if it's not your thing, you'll find something in there you love. I loved organic chemistry when I learned it which was good because it was a huge component of the exam at the time. And once you're in medical school, you don't do any of that stuff. You need the understanding of it, especially for physiology, but you don't go back to it.

    I hope that's useful to you, apologies for the length.

    • ys on 14/05/2018 - 01:06
      +1

      hey, thank you so much for this. i wish you all the best!

    • eldudebrothers on 18/05/2018 - 17:51

      your post hit close to home and good on you for persisting. I find it terrible that incredibly intelligent people like you are finding it hard to get consultant level jobs post fellowship, several of my close mates finished AT and are in limbo, even in fields like resp and cardio. Hell, when I was doing GP training there were BPT, Gen surg, and even consultants who had given up.

  • luvv on 14/05/2018 - 00:05
    +4

    Consider a career in psychiatry! We absolutely love to blend hardcore science stuff with the arts and humanities. I love that we can start of the day poring over MRI scans of the schizophreniform psychosis that turned out to be CADASIL, break for lunch to attend a seminar on the Freudian themes in the movie Aliens, and end the day with teaching clients mindfulness meditation - literally a day I've had. Don't abandon the skills and knowledge you gained in your undergrad degree if you do indeed decide to pursue postgrad med. There's room for every kind of person in psychiatry.

  • shaybisc on 14/05/2018 - 09:07

    At what stage in the process do you find out that even though you are very smart and very good at exams, you are a klutz, sorely lacking in dexterity?

    • MessyG on 14/05/2018 - 09:52

      When playing beer pong after the second year exams. Don't worry, there's a field for everyone.

  • TimeWaster on 14/05/2018 - 12:43
    +2

    Heya, I'm a fair way through my undergrad medical degree and I might be able to shed some light.

    Regarding your degree in politics, you might find it a little bit more difficult than from a health-related topic, as your uni may not have pathways made available. What that means is you'll probably have to sit the GAMSAT for post-graduate entry into medicine. The exam is basically to the level of a first-year science student in the fields of chemistry, biology and some physics - meaning you'll have to study quite hard. A lot of the people I've spoken to who took this pathway said that the GAMSAT was probably the hardest exam of their life (i.e. even more so than the exams in medicine). But let's say you aced the exams and got a good result.

    Quotas. Most universities have quotas for student entry from various backgrounds. So this includes high-school leavers (for undergraduate courses), international students and post-graduates. If you're applying for undergraduate medicine you'd have to sit the UMAT (which is really an exam you have to study how to do, as opposed to study scientific content), and you'd be competing with high-school leavers. In post-graduate degrees, you'll be competing with people with a health-science background, etc. But let's say you manage to prevail academically and through interviews.

    Stress. Prepare for a lot of stress. A lot of feelings of incompetency, worry and questioning your decision in the degree. So make sure your reason to do medicine is solid because, don't believe the hype, the pay is certainly not proportional to the amount of work you'll be facing. And also make sure you've got a good support network and friends to debrief with (if you don't now, you'll meet plenty of like-minded individuals to bond with). But it's really important to look after yourself when going through the degree and also after (this is a problem that has been gaining more publicity and acceptance these days). Your job is ultimately to deal with one of the worst, and sometimes even last, days of someone else's life every single day. Hopefully this conveys the magnitude of turmoil you will face.

    If you are a female, you'll likely face problems with older, more rural, doctors who may flirt (in jest), but it is uncomfortable. I haven't personally witnessed a girl being belittled, as such, but definitely there's implications that you'd 'just' become a GP so you'd have time to look after and raise kids, as opposed to pursuing a more 'manly' and intensive speciality like surgery. Again, this is changing, but old doctors are kind of set in their ways sometimes and if you bring your A game, then they can't really talk negatively about you practicing good medicine.

    But onto the rewards. You'll make some life-long friends, learn the intricacies of the human body and how fascinating it is. You'll get to watch yourself transform from knowing basically nothing about disease, to being able to identify risk factors, causes, pathophysiology and maybe even point out the enzyme responsible for the ailment! I've never done anything more satisfying in my life than medicine. The feeling when you piece everything together in your head, in a way that makes sense and when you have no idea about the answer to a question, but you know the systems well enough to guess a correct answer is unparalleled. Of course, there's also job security (with the added bonus of eternally being at least upper-middle class fo the rest of your life).

    Seriously though, medicine isn't for the faint of heart and it's not for people who scrape by. It's rewarding in so many ways, but also challenges you to your lowest lows. Really think about why you want to do medicine and if your resolve is strong enough to overcome this. Anyways, I hope that hasn't scared you off and feel free to ask more questions if you're curious about anything.

  • onevstheworld on 15/05/2018 - 00:02
    +4

    Anaesthetist here. I'm glad to see so many giving a balanced view of life as a medico. The worst stories usually come after a bad day/week, whereas the good days tend to be downplayed.

    I thought I'd chime in with my experience and opinions on medicine as a career, since I didn't see many comments from people who've finished specialty training. I finished my training approx 3 years ago in NSW… you may have a different experience if you are in another state.

    Pros:
    * Personally fulfilling. I don't think I need to elaborate on this one.
    * Suits a wide variety of personality types. Hate talking to people? Radiology/pathology. Love kids? Paediatrics. Bureaucrat? Medical admin is an actual specialty. Action hero? Retrieval medicine (sub-spec of ICU, anaesthesia or emergency).
    * Pays well. Google ATO's top earners.
    * Stable work. From the perspective of my career, the GFC was a non-event.
    * Supportive network of colleagues you can bounce ideas off, ask advice, etc. My wife works in finance, and when she was doing a series of exams, I was surprised how little assistance she was able to get, and how fiercely people protect their IP/knowledge. On the flip-side, she was astonished how freely others helped me for my exams.

    Cons:
    * Very competitive at every level. Even after you've finished your training, it can be difficult to get consistent work as a specialist. This is dependent on your specialty and location… Sydney and Melbourne especially so. However, if you are flexible in where you want to work, there are plenty of jobs in smaller centers.
    * Long training time. You are considered a "young" anaesthetist if you finish your training before you're 35. Add 3-5 years for surgeons. For me, it was 10 years from end of med school to becoming a specialist. Part of this is due to the competitiveness of the specialties (i.e. you have to do a few years of non-accredited training jobs before getting on a training program). Most other specialties will take you in sooner, but you're still looking at 5+ years post-med school before you're fully qualified.
    * Hard on your personal life and mental health. As already mentioned, unfortunately, suicide is not a rare occurrence. Divorce happens too. Be mindful of yourself and others, and a friend or mentor helps immensely.
    * It's harder on women. Slowly changing, and the overt discrimination is gone, but the system is still very male-centric. e.g. It is a big sacrifice to have a baby during training.

    Misc:
    * Med school is the easy part. Specialty training is the hard part.
    * You're examined on knowledge and technique, but communication and inter-personal skills will also become a huge part of your practice.
    * You don't need a PhD, but some research or a Masters is useful if considering the surgical specialties.
    * Work-life balance is pretty bad during training, but you will get a lot more control once you've finished.

    If I knew all the above before I started, would I do it all over again?
    Yes, no question.
    If my children asked if they should do medicine?
    Depends on personality. I'd give the above points and fully support them if they went ahead with it.

    Hope this was helpful

Login or Join to leave a comment
Login Join