Hi, all,
I am just curious about this hypothetical situation.
If a person has two permanent jobs and calls sick (paid) in one place but works in another place on the same day (could be the same shift or different). Is this legal?
Does it matter if a medical certificate is provided to the first employer?
IMHO, I don't see any issue here, but I'm not sure what the law says.
Thanks a lot.
Not only that - that'd be fully valid reason to fire you. (or give you a formal warning leading to subsequent sacking).
It's not legal but it can be hard to enforce.
Sick leave is a trust based system, especially if it is just for one day but as the name clearly implies, it is to be taken when you are sick.
Thanks a lot for the reply.
An employer does have the right to ask for a medical certificate for as little as one day of leave. If you don't provide it then they don't have to pay the sick leave.
fair work.
although it does not say it here, I beleive frequent calling in sick without a certificate can also be treated as not turning up for work - hence consequences.
". If you don't provide it or a signed statuatory declaration that you were unfit for work, then they don't have to pay the sick leave"
FIFY. Wages are a lot cheaper than a defamation settlement and back-pay…
These days they aren't called "sick" leave, but often "personal" leave and include carers duties (eg sick child).
It is generally up to the company to set the policy about requiring a medical certificate. Again, generally, this is two days in a lot of places.
"but I'm not sure what the law says."
ask Judge Dredd.
.
Or judge Bao if you are Asian.
why the neg? this made me chuckle
It gives your employer a good reason to dismiss you if you're found.
yep…I agree!
Interesting. I know that at my work if you have a medical certificate for two days nad come back early, there is an issue with workers comp if you are injured on site. It sounds more like you are trying to fake an illness for a medical certificate. If you really are sick, you would not be able to work effectively anywhere.
Not quite, if one is a safety critical environment; eg aircraft maintenance, medical work etc and the other is a low risk job such as shelf filling it is entirely possible to be unfit to carry out your duties in one role but fine for the other.
Same could go for one being a physically demanding job and the other being desk based.
Typically if you're unfit for your usual duties at one job, they can offer you other light duties while you recover (eg from a broken arm etc).
Doubtful you'd be able to hold two permanent jobs if one of those was one of the 'safety critical' ones.
How do you not see an issue? You're saying you're too unwell to work, then are working somewhere else. Unless one is a physical job and the other not etc.
That's exactly the reason I don't see the issue.
One job can be physically demanding while the other is sedentary.
However, whether it's legal or not should not be determined according to the types of the jobs or what reason people call sick. It's just a general question.
Truly-a general question? Or something you are contemplating for a “friend”
Thanks.
But no, thanks. There is no need for all these assumption.
@littlepcat: but you also said
could be the same shift or different)
If it is the same shift times, then the person could be seen to be using illness as a way of avoiding a clash of shifts while expecting to be paid twice for the same hours. Permanent job 1 pays sick leave because a person has called in sick while for the same shift hours, they are working at permanent job 2.
I wouldn’t like to explain that one.
@Emli:
You are assuming the shift at the 2nd job is a permanent shift. If that's the case, yes, I agree with you; there is a problem here.
A permanent part-time worker can pick up extra shifts casually.
E.g., you call sick at 10:00 for the afternoon shift. The 2nd employer at 13:00 ask you if you can come in to cover a shift.
I did not assume.
You wrote
If a person has two permanent jobs.
There was no mention of a casual shift.
@littlepcat: If you're going to be a liar, you need to have a good memory. If you can't remember the details of something you just wrote you might as well quit your first job.
Ask the first employer for light duties.
You are trying to justify doing it but if employer 1 found out you would at least be disciplined and sick leave not paid
My job is very physically demanding. Sometimes people come to work when they are experiencing pain. However, they don't want/cannot afford to call sick (too many sick leaves taken recently / loss of weekend penalty….) In this case, everyone else's workload is increased. And it's unfair.
One of my colleagues has a second job (data entry). One day we were talking about this hypothetical situation. She told me "she doesn't want to get caught. She will be in trouble.". I don't know the legal part, hence the question.
Thank you all very much for the input.
Doesn't seem impossible that someone could be unfit for work for one physically demanding workplace and fit for work at a desk job somewhere else.
The problem is that it is at least implied that when you are on sick leave from a job that you are resting/recovering/whatever. Bit tough to argue you are recovering at a separate workplace even if it is a desk job.
It seems possible that you could start your sentences without a double negative, no?
If that truly is the issue, you should be asking your 1st employer if there are light duties you can do.
Does it matter if a medical certificate is provided to the first employer?
So how do you get a calid certificate if you're 'fit' to work at your 2nd job? ;)
I might have a broken leg that stops me working as a stripper, but is no barrier to a second job answering a phone sex line.
A medical certificate can specify what tasks (e.g. no lifting) are off limits.
yeah don't think this is whats happening here though
It's not illegal, but very unethical.
Expect to be fired if busted.
It's illegal. Well you can do whatever you want, but if you get caught then you live with the consequence. Don't make another thread about "help I've been caught doing something that I don't even think it's illegal" or something along that line.
If the job isn't for you find something else. Not saying this in a harsh way, but if your body can't take it, you'll regret it down the track when you're older.
There is no law prohibiting this, so it's not illegal.
The only legal restriction for working during leave is if you are on long service leave.
Sick is not just physical can be mentally, so it's ok.
I think OP had better have a medical certificate saying this 2nd job is therapy for this "sickness". It sounds like you'd be okay with me taking a sickie to go to the cricket because it helps my "mental sickness". Somehow I don't think I'd be holding that job for long after the boss found out.
So my understanding of a mental health condition requiring time off and a medical certificate (eg stress, depression, anxiety ) means you would not recover on the same day to do another job competently.
Unless you were a test cricket umpire in the 90s
That's such a BS cop-out in this situation. People like you are going to be the reason mental illnesses stop getting taken seriously again.
If you falsely seek a medical certificate you could get in trouble, but if the two jobs have different duties, such that you could do one but not the other due to the medical reason, I think it would be fine.
A simple example is that I wouldn’t attend my job if I had the flu, but might answer emails from my sick bed. If I had two employers I wouldn’t feel conflicted about this.
legally fine (depending on your employment conditions, for me would be an immediate breach of employment conditions), though I could see the first employer sacking you on the spot (and being well within their rights) if you haven't informed them of this and had them agree to it. After all why should they be paying you sick leave if you are actually working and earning an income elsewhere. If you are well enough for some duties then you should of asked to be given some light duties at work due to whatever illness it is preventing you from doing your work.
I don't know how anyone here can justify this! Put yourself in the employer's shoes - would you be happy if your employee called in sick but you found out they were at home doing other duties for another employer? I don'tcare whether your job is physical or not, this to me is borderline fraud -at least entering a moral an ethical grey area! I'd be checking your conditions of employment if I were you, I know my previous employer had had conditions stating you could not participate in paid work for another employer if you were away on sick leave.
Get out of here… You and your common sense
There is a girl who is actually doing that in a workplace i know (she s supposed to work full time in a furniture shop but often call in sick or ask for DIL). Unfortunately she hasn t realise that her worplace is launching a full investigation on her as she s basically thinking she's smarter than the guys she s working with. Legally, she gonna have to paid back for the loss and damages. But also it will follow her for any future job.
I did this several times when I worked as a cleaner early in the morning and then had to go to my other job that I currently have as ICT Support. Guess which one got the sickies…. not hard is it?
Hard to get the 48 hour work week out of your system?
It's maybe legal, but you'll run into serious trouble if one workplace finds out about the other. It happened to a relative of mine. He had sick leave from one workplace but was caught working the same kind of job at another workplace by the rival employees. Oops. The sad thing is my relative saw nothing wrong with this. "But I had a sick leave certificate!" facepalm
In the words of someone I despise: You're fired!
If a person has two permanent jobs
Does this person work 76hr a week?
In a response to an earlier post
Person works two permanent part time jobs but gets offered casual shifts as extra.
I've seen a person charged by the police for faking a medical certificate to take sick leave: something along the lines of obtaining property (money) by deception or similar (can't remember exactly). Was surprised that the police bothered: maybe s/he did it all the time or maybe the business had a particular pull. So yes, illegal.
A person at work was busted years ago having a sick day then going to do a shift at a bar later on that day. The only problem was that the HR manager turned up to that very bar and saw them.
They were instantly dismissed the next day once they handed in their medical certificate saying they were unfit for work.
If you aren't fit for work you shouldn't double dip.
If I take a sickie then feel better in avo, I still won't go out. I'd feel guilty as sin. I figure I'm being paid to rest and recover, and if that means catching up on extra sleep I don't really need, it still benefits everyone.
If the first employer finds out that you were working elsewhere, whilst claiming paid sick leave, they legally have the right to not pay you that sick leave and have grounds for summary dismissal.
Should you be injured whilst attending the second workplace, you would be denied compensation due to the leave certificate. This is irrespective of what workplace or injury/illness the certificate was issued to cover.
The second employer would probably also have grounds for dismissal, as the action can bring the business into disrepute.
There is potential for legal action by at least the first employer, on fraudulent grounds, but more than likely, not worth the effort. However, all previous sick leave can be reviewed, with the potential of monetary recovery if also found to be false.
Again, this is all based on the premise that the employer finds out.
Beyond morals one of two things is going to get you, now or when you do it again and somebody catches on.
1) a common clause in a contract preventing you from using work resources for any business other than your employers. That covers another job, a personal business, during work hours, using any work assets incl for example computers/internet/printing etc. e.g. joey jo jo working on his home business during work hours with work laptop using work's internet, even at lunch, is a big no no.
2) submitting a fraudulent claim for sick leave that you were unable to work, when you were, for personal gain or benefit is usually a serious offence despite the small size of it. If you submitted a false medical certificate it would be even better evidence against you. Most companies have zero tolerance for fraudsters.
At best you'd get a warning in a softly softly workplace, but in private or sharp nosed commercial environment it would be good night.
Some what related, in my old government job, if you had a sick certification and you tried to return to work you will be sent home.
I had a friend who had a week given off by GP, he felt good after 3 days but was sent home upon showing the med certificate.
I think the thing a business might fear is if you get further injuries at work whilst deemed inappropriate for work they have uninsured liability. Hence I think it’ll be a breach of some policy not to disclose a medical certificate if you have one and try working on your second job. But honestly, who’s ever gonna find out.
In the words of Nike: just do it
With a previous employer we had to declare any secondary employment including voluntary and community work and get approval.
Most offices and corporates seem to have that clause in their contracts but they only care about their employees working for competitors or any company where there could be a conflict of interest such as a supplier or client.
Or can bring the company into disrepute eg a teacher working as a barmaid.
that would depend on what they're teaching in the first place! haha
No can do. You are contradicting your sick leave claim and can be sued for a fraudulent claim regardless of certificate. I.e you faked the condition
If one job was labour intensive and the other was not and your ailment was of a physical nature restricting you from doing the first but not the second can't see a problem.
Depends entirely on employment contract and relevant award(s). Some specifically state you can't work elsewhere while on leave.
Once that's addressed and all clear, there's the fact you working is clear evidence that you could have worked and weren't unfit for work, I'm confident this would override even a doctor's opinion. As such, you're then not eligible to receive sick leave, as it would be determined that you were able to work.
Basically, you'd need a contract that doesn't say you cant work elsewhere on leave and doesn't specify that you have to be unable to work to take sick leave. Maybe the contract allows for x days to be taken without showing you're unable to work, in that case it could be legal.
Note: not a lawyer, not legal advice, etc.
Hypothetical? I am almost 100% certain your "hypothetical" situation has already become your reality. You have gotten away with it a few times and you cannot stop your double income scam, however, you feel a little guilty so are seeking some sort of redemption by turning to a bargain hunting community to determine if you will be awarded some sort of "epic bargain hunter" award.
I am all for sticking it to the man but there has to be some boundaries, right?
You might even be some sort of super hero in the current economy where workers rights have been eroded to the point where you feel like taking it upon yourself to restore these rights to the common man and bring balance back to employer/employee relations.
I dunno, as someone with a spinal injury and a casual labour job + a casual cushy job I would happily call in sick at the labour job to pick up a shift at the cushy one if i genuinely wasn't fit for work. Not vice versa however.
If you genuinely can perform and one and not the other, i dont morally see a problem.
However, whether the employer sees the divide when it comes to giving you $$$ anyway, another story.
What I don’t understand is why would your said hypothetical friend take to jobs with conflicting work days?
Asian, needs the jobs, needs the cash$$.. one job easier than the other, gets asked to do some ex hours at the 'preferred' job, as it's easier - he calls in sick to the 'harder job'. No 'job loyalty' to the harder job… hopefully the easier job doesn't fall through, to be left having being unreliable for the other, stable, shit job… hopefully ;) 2 way street though….
Employer has right to ask for medical certificate even just for 1 day. Most do not, and base it on trust. Will you get away with it? probably~
But there is a difference morally, to take unpaid leave, and go to work in another job, compared to taking paid sick leave and going to work at another job. At the end of the day, it is up to whether you get caught, and that would definitely justify dismissal. Even if you consider 1 job to be manual and the other administrative. Sick leave is paid when you are "not fit to work" not "not fit to work in this job/role". Just as workers comp would reassign you to other tasks/role within the organisation, the Employer is paying you, if you can not do something temporarily then you can do other things whist receiving that pay.
As an employer, cant find justification for it either way.
Yeah, this. You basically have to be unfit for any type of work in order to take sick leave in most cases. If you're just physically unable to do your regular job your employer can find other less demanding work for you since they're paying anyway.
Obviously, if you're casually employed and the sick leave is unpaid, you're pretty much fine to do whatever. When you're casually employed the employer will keep you as long as you're being useful and not if they think you're unreliable.
Just a breach of your morals. I hope anyway.