Item Not Received on OzBargain Classifieds - Do We Need a Rating System?

stickyfingers on 02/07/2018 - 20:08
Last edited 10/07/2018 - 21:24

I've recently purchased a digital code for just under $50 from a seller here and after confirming a deal via messages and getting their email address I sent the money as PayPal Friends & Family.
Just after the money was sent to the long-standing user (~7 years) went offline and hasn't come back on since.

I've contacted another user who commented on the post saying they were looking to buy and it turns out they've also sent money with no response. Strange considering the seller was only advertising one item.

There's nothing we both can do as the money was sent via PayPal Friends & Family.

I've seen this mentioned before and I think it would be extremely useful to get a rating system for users who interact via OzBargain Classifieds.
People suck, and while it might be rare for a transaction to go bad it would be useful to see how they've interacted in the past without having to read into their post/comment history.

tl;dr sent money on ozb classifieds and never got the item. would be good to be able to rate sellers and buyers like you can on facebook marketplace.

Update 1

03/07/2018

  • The seller replied to me on the 3rd saying "posting today".
  • DamonT also was told the same day that he'd be provided a refund and was asked for his PayPal email address.
  • I've sent a message each day to the seller who has come online every morning now, except today and has received no codes, no refund, and no response.
  • I've now been told that a third person has sent him money for these codes.

Thanks to everyone for chiming in, good or bad. I'll be sure to pay the Goods & Services fee in the future. Keep in mind that this also means PayID is easily targeted.
Be sure to keep the seller's personal information out of the thread to avoid any issues for the site.
Thanks to neil as well for looking into this. As I've mentioned before I don't blame OzBargain for anything as it's purely between members. So the help is greatly appreciated.

I'll keep you all updated.

Update 2

10/07/2018

  • I've spoken with hydies (who almost sent funds) as well as DamonT & Sweet3st (who did send funds) and there's no doubt in my mind that the seller (WantedtosoIdid) had no intention of ever providing the codes.
  • In an email to neil the seller has stated that they're upset because I have contacted him outside of OzBargain in an effort to get a response and as so does not want to send the item or provide a refund because their feelings are hurt.
  • I have today sent the seller my first demand for a refund in preparation for a civil dispute.
Site Discussion

Comments

  • hogwarts on 02/07/2018 - 20:13
    +12

    You know we can read through your comments. Wink wink

    • BlazinPast on 02/07/2018 - 20:18
      +6

      he Wantedtosohedid

      • Scrooge McDuck on 02/07/2018 - 23:02
        +7

        It seems Rob lives up to his name.

  • HighAndDry on 02/07/2018 - 20:21
    +3

    That's a hard no. The moment OzBargain implements anything to do with private transactions between individuals, OzBargain opens themselves up to potential liability. For example - that ratings system could arguably be characterized as OzBargain making a representation as to the trustworthiness of certain members, and if a highly rated member scams someone, the victim could well go after OzBargain.

    • BlazinPast on 02/07/2018 - 20:23

      what? on what grounds would they sue OzBargain?

      • HighAndDry on 02/07/2018 - 20:29
        +1

        For example - that ratings system could arguably be characterized as OzBargain making a representation as to the trustworthiness of certain members, and if a highly rated member scams someone, the victim could well go after OzBargain.

        In this situation for example, potential liability under misrep. It would be a terrible argument, and would almost certainly fail, but it's arguable enough that (imho) it'd survive a motion for summary dismissal. Even then, the first rule of the practical application of law is that you really don't want to be sued in the first place. Winning a lawsuit can often be just as costly as losing one in practical terms.

        Oh, just to add:

        It requires a (moderately) high bar to win a lawsuit. It requires almost nothing at all to sue someone.

    • stickyfingers on 02/07/2018 - 20:34
      +6

      I really don't see this as being any different as to having the classifieds section in the first place. OzBargain wouldn't be getting involved with the transaction.

      We can rate posts and comments, so despite the points you raise, I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible to have the ability to rate users that interact in the classifieds.

      • HighAndDry on 02/07/2018 - 20:39
        -1

        Ratings on posts and comments are generally understood to apply to the relevance of the post/comment itself. Deals which are scams are actively removed by mods, and balancing potential liability vs usefulness, considering OzBargain is a deal site, it's kind of necessary.

        Not so with rating OzBargain members, because OzB isn't primarily a swap-meet site, and there is zero vetting of members at all other than for breaches of site rules, and there are far more members and potential members of the site than sellers and vendors.

        It's up to the mods/admin ultimately but I just don't see them doing it. Too much risk for not really much reward.

  • peterpeterpumpkin on 02/07/2018 - 20:29
    +3

    It's unusual for someone that has posted such public information on an anonymous forum (his instagram with selfies, his actual location etc) to want to scam people for such little money. Unless he's been doing this for a while and has never been caught…

    I mean, who would jeopardise a longstanding OzBargain account for a few hundred dollars? Maybe he's stuck somewhere and needs money urgently to get home? Or he's leaving Australia for good (or bad)? Or he needs the cash to take an Uber to the police station to turn himself in for a serious crime? Or he wants to go to gaol because he lacks money for rent?

    • HighAndDry on 02/07/2018 - 20:31
      +2

      Could have had his account compromised, kind of like the eBay scams where an old account is hacked and the hacker uses the existing feedback on the account to scam people. Except happening to an active account. Or they just really needed the money. Or they've been involved in an accident and is currently in hospital.

      • stickyfingers on 02/07/2018 - 20:36
        +1

        Could have had his account compromised, kind of like the eBay scams where an old account is hacked and the hacker uses the existing feedback on the account to scam people.

        This is the only thing I could have thought of. I thought of giving the user the benefit of the doubt in that they could be busy or away, etc but when I contacted the other user and heard they sent money for the same item when only 1 was advertised we both knew something was up.

        • HighAndDry on 02/07/2018 - 20:39

          Damn. Well, check with the mods - and if you can, name and shame.

        • stickyfingers on 02/07/2018 - 20:53
          +1

          @HighAndDry: we've both reported the post to the mods. Hopefully, nobody else sent him money. It isn't too hard to figure out from my comments but I'll wait for a confirmation from the mods before putting their username on the post.

    • CyberMurning on 02/07/2018 - 21:11

      who would jeopardise a longstanding OzBargain account for a few hundred dollars

      Agree. I won't. Hmmmm very strange.

      • dcep on 02/07/2018 - 23:15
        +1

        what does a longstanding OzBargain account worth for ?

  • BlazinPast on 02/07/2018 - 20:39
    +1

    Even though I think there should be a rating system, I don't think it would have helped avoid the situation you're in. That user has put up listings on classifieds before. Despite the user not being to sell anything anyway, he could just have easily have sold them and gotten a good rating. He decided to 'scam' (don't know for sure yet) you after a few legitimate offerings. So it wouldn't have stopped you from buying from him.

  • ronnknee on 02/07/2018 - 20:40

    OzBargain is simply providing the platform to allow users to create free listings and facilitate communication between interested parties - we do not offer buyer protection or facilitate payments.

    • stickyfingers on 02/07/2018 - 20:41
      +1

      I don't blame OzBargain at all. It's my fault for not coughing up the extra to pay for Goods & Services but it's unfortunate that there are people who don't honor their side of the deal.
      I'm just suggesting that it would be useful to leave feedback on users.

  • HighAndDry on 02/07/2018 - 20:43
    +2

    Also - can't believe noone's said this, so obligatory:

    Bikies.

  • Diji1 on 02/07/2018 - 21:04

    The thing about feedback is it will be gamed eg. make multiple accounts and rate another account. So then OzBargain has to implement barriers such as phone verification which will stop many attackers but still not determined ones.

    • CyberMurning on 02/07/2018 - 21:10
      +1

      Agree. Or sell small cheap items toncollect rating then boom run away after scamming surface pro.

      • stickyfingers on 02/07/2018 - 21:58

        Extremely good point. Maybe false confidence is worse than none at all.

  • tsunamisurfer on 02/07/2018 - 21:10
    +2

    Buying on Ozbargain classified = buying on gumtree.

    Meet. Pay cash. Collect.

    Relying on honesty from unknown peoples, even with 7 years tenure on Ozbargain is folly.

    • stickyfingers on 02/07/2018 - 21:57

      Meet up, and get robbed (speaking from experience).

      There's really no safe way to do it.

      eBay is probably your best bet but their fees are ridiculous.

      • Ryanek on 03/07/2018 - 09:36

        Meet in front of a Police station.

        • Deridas on 03/07/2018 - 12:08

          Or shopping centre with CCTV and people everywhere.

  • Savas on 02/07/2018 - 22:18
    +2

    I have opened a dispute on Friends and Family before. I just said I was an idiot and got scammed. I never use friends and family anymore.

    • stickyfingers on 02/07/2018 - 22:19

      I didn't know you could. How did it go?

      • Savas on 02/07/2018 - 22:23
        +3

        It was successful. But I don't think you've been scammed. You can see the user doesn't go on Ozbargain often. For example, in this classified he took 2 days to reply.

        • stickyfingers on 02/07/2018 - 22:29
          +3

          I'm hopeful they're genuine and will come through. I'll give it another day or two before filing the dispute.

          I don't know why you'd jeopardize the reputation of such a long-standing account. It only weird when another user had also paid for the item, but yep, it could totally be a mix up. We'll see…

        • [Deactivated] on 02/07/2018 - 23:19
          +1

          Selling a cheque made out to MSY seems dodgy in itself

        • Savas on 02/07/2018 - 23:58
          +2

          @jay29043: Good point lol

        • Micko179 on 03/07/2018 - 09:08
          +3

          @jay29043: a $729 cheque for $729 sounds like an absolute BARGAIN!

  • bobbified on 02/07/2018 - 23:32
    -1

    We don't need a rating system - we need to educate people on the risks associated with buying and selling on the internet.

    • stickyfingers on 03/07/2018 - 00:48
      +1

      I'm well aware of the risks. It's more about trying to mitigate them, but as others have pointed out above that's something that is more complex than it sounds.

  • Sergeant Salami on 02/07/2018 - 23:46
    +2

    He's talking about this: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/388128

  • Some Human on 02/07/2018 - 23:55

    why did you send it as family and friends?

    • stickyfingers on 03/07/2018 - 00:44
      +1

      It's pretty normal on OzBargain Classifieds to send payments as Family & Friends to avoid the recipient being charged a fee from PayPal.

    • veej on 03/07/2018 - 12:23
      +2

      Friends/Family payments are treated as gifts to the recipient hence why the no fees clause. If anyone makes a payment via this method to someone they don't know they are asking to be scammed. Sad but true.

      I don't care how cheap someone is if they claim to want to avoid fees. That being said I have never purchased from a private seller on OB. Keep safe people.

  • Moderatorneil on 03/07/2018 - 00:46

    Just a reminder to not post personal details of the seller. From previous incidents like this, it's best to give the buyer some time to respond instead of getting the pitchforks out and plastering their info all over the web.

    • stickyfingers on 03/07/2018 - 00:50
      +2

      Thanks neil. I'll hang in there and hope for the best.

      I'll update towards the end of the week if I don't hear anything before then.

      Also FWIW, I don't mean to turn anybody off classifieds. I've had all fantastic experiences before this and have made tens of transactions with both new and old users in buying and selling with some users being amazingly generous in giving some items away for free to the community.

  • Savas on 03/07/2018 - 10:07
    +2

    Can we have an update please?

  • DamonT on 03/07/2018 - 10:46

    Yeah I was just contacted. I'll let you all know, but I haven't put my pitchfork down just yet.

    • DamonT on 03/07/2018 - 13:41
      +1

      He last logged in 55 mins ago, and still no follow up contact. Pitchfork grip tightening.

      • tomsco on 04/07/2018 - 10:13
        +1

        Lol, reading your comment about all the info you have on him, and the fact there is more than one of you that can show he is potentially scamming, they would have to be pretty stupid to continue down the scam path.

        Hopefully you get it sorted without too much more effort.

      • BlazinPast on 04/07/2018 - 13:27
        +4

        He's logged in again. Has he said anything? If he hasn't, then I don't get how it isn't a scam. He knows that he left you guys hanging and still hasn't responded.

  • Moderatorneil on 05/07/2018 - 12:26

    I've contacted the seller by PM and email to get an update.

    • SydneySwan on 05/07/2018 - 12:36

      Well done - not before time.

    • DamonT on 05/07/2018 - 12:43

      Thanks Neil. Yeah he contacted both myself and stickyfingers a couple days back noting that he'd refund me and provide codes to stickfingers, but there's been radio silence since then, and now it appears that Sweet3st has also sent him money. We've corroborated the timelines and seen that he had a pretty solid opportunity to say "sorry guys, there's been a mixup".

  • stickyfingers on 05/07/2018 - 13:35
    +4

    I've updated the post with new information.

  • stickyfingers on 10/07/2018 - 21:24
    +2

    More information has been added to the post.

    • BlazinPast on 10/07/2018 - 23:55
      +2

      give him hell OP. scumbag seller.

  • Ughhh on 10/07/2018 - 21:46
    +2

    so does not want to send the item or provide a refund because their feelings are hurt.

    Rofl. A bit precious.

    I have today sent the seller my first demand for a refund in preparation for a civil dispute.

    Hope you get your money back. Though the seller might need the money for more tissues.

    • forrester on 11/07/2018 - 00:08
      +3

      As someone who has sold before to stickyfingers (who was thoroughly polite and prompt with his communication), I feel terrible and let down that someone has acted in this way as it also hurts all the honest and genuine users that make this such a valuable community.
      I hope that things are resolved quickly in the end for those affected.

  • HighAndDry on 11/07/2018 - 10:46
    +5

    In an email to neil the seller has stated that they're upset because I have contacted him outside of OzBargain in an effort to get a response and as so does not want to send the item or provide a refund because their feelings are hurt.

    Classic scammer tactic. Literally any excuse to justify not providing the goods or a refund, and if nothing else, gives them an excuse to drag out the process.

    Don't let up OP, scumbag deserves more than just hurt feelings for this.

    • tomsco on 11/07/2018 - 11:06
      +5

      So true. While the scammer may have had the right to be annoyed initially (only due to the time frames before they were contacted externally), any moral high ground is absolutely squashed with the comment about not wanting to refund.

      Are they seriously that stupid - these guys have his personal details. He can't just run away. They need to man up and just refund and stop making excuses (although I guess realistically it's all just part of the scam, not really because they're upset).

  • BlazinPast on 11/07/2018 - 11:55
    +2

    It might be hard to do but it'd be nice to get his PayPal banned. It's rare but they sometimes side with the buyer when it's payment via family & friends. An investigation either way doesn't look good for the seller's standing with PayPal.

    • SydneySwan on 11/07/2018 - 14:21
      +1

      Sounds a great idea.

  • dynamike on 12/07/2018 - 19:07
    +1

    Happy to support any action you're going to take considering he has apparently ripped me off too for $45

    • stickyfingers on 12/07/2018 - 19:39

      You’ve gotta be kidding.

      CLEARLY, this shows that he’s not upset with us when dynamike has stayed quiet for ~2 weeks now (this is the first I’m hearing about this) and hasn’t gotten any codes or refunds either.

      • DamonT on 12/07/2018 - 19:50
        +1

        He might be "upset" with the two of us, but he definitely can't use that lame excuse on dynamike or sweet3st.

    • DamonT on 12/07/2018 - 19:42
      +1

      wow, sorry to hear he got you too. Do you mind letting us know the timeline of how it happened, please?

  • BlazinPast on 13/07/2018 - 00:02
    +9

    you should all report the case to paypal. 3 of you reporting could be enough to convince them.

  • illumination on 19/07/2018 - 13:16

    Still nothing? :(

    • DamonT on 19/07/2018 - 19:26
      +8

      Nothing to report, but an OZB class action is underway ;) We'll be sure to let you know when we get our positive outcome.

      • BlazinPast on 19/07/2018 - 23:01
        +1

        so glad his public information was so easy to attain. have you guys already been able to successfully identify him or you're not allowed to say?

        • DamonT on 20/07/2018 - 09:54
          +6

          Oh we've certainly identified him, but will be keeping things close to our chest for now (on here anyway). Thanks for all the PMs and offers of what to do with his info :) It seems like the OZB community is very protective and you don't need to be personally involved to want retribution! I almost feel sorry for this guy if some members do what they have suggested! We've asked them to hold off (for now), as we have sought less drastic means first.

    • stickyfingers on 21/07/2018 - 20:22

      Not a peep despite the demand letters sent in via multiple platforms (email addresses, OzBargain messaging) in escalation for my civil dispute.
      He logged on here today again as well.

  • BlazinPast on 01/09/2018 - 09:50

    Any updates so far? Is it going well?

    • stickyfingers on 01/09/2018 - 12:26
      +7

      Nothing yet. Seller has remained quiet to us all. I am taking action and will update when I have more information to provide.

  • brisdaz on 27/09/2018 - 06:11

    Credo360 is a portable rating/reputation system that allows for privacy. Its used by Reddit. Unfortunately it appears identity verification and payment methods are us based only.

  • brisdaz on 27/09/2018 - 10:49
    +5

    Also any updates OP?

    • brisdaz on 22/11/2018 - 20:30
      +1

      Hmm well OP is online now. It must be sensitive in court now or something like that.

  • driew on 02/03/2020 - 23:28
    -2

    I feel bad for you but that's the risk you take with family and friends. Better to cough up and pay the paypal fee so at least you get some recompense if it turns out to be a scam. As someone who has been scammed in the past, I do feel your pain. But learn your lesson and you probably won't ever make the same mistake again.

  • coolsteps on 16/10/2021 - 17:56

    stickyfingers any updates? if not at least post their Oz bargain user name so we can stay clear?

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