Officer Error in Parking Fine, Council Will Not Admit Mistake (VIC)

Jaystea on 01/08/2018 - 18:49
Last edited 01/08/2018 - 19:01 by 1 other user

Hi guys I have an issue with the council fining my car for parking over the time limit (Banyule council).

I parked my car for 2 hours from 8.30am to 10.30am a few weeks ago, in a 2 hour spot.

I then moved my car and parked in a different 2 hour spot at 10.30, on the opposite side of the road, a few car spots down from original spot. I came back at 12pm only to find a parking fine, stipulating that I had parked over the time limit. I noticed then that I had a mark on my wheel at the 6 o'clock position, so probably around 9.30 am. The fine says parked from. 9.30 to 12.07pm which is not true.

I wrote in to the council saying that I was parked in a different area from 8.30 to 10.30, and I had moved the car after that. To which they responded with a generic "the vehicle was noted to be parked for a period longer than the time indicated" and then continued to show me my options (I.e. Pay the fine).

What can I do in this case? Given it's a legitimate error of the officer?

Automotive Parking Fine

closed Comments

    • Mike88 on 03/08/2018 - 14:59
      +1

      How many threads like this do we need?
      How many self entitled idiots are on the forum? At least one per person I suspect, we could be doing this for a while.

    • Jaystea on 04/08/2018 - 12:58

      Finish what I'm doing within the time? How about caring for the sick working 10 hour shifts in the hospital, having to duck out every now and then to move my car, adhering to the road rules and serving the community to the best of my ability. Every year the parking rules get more and more stringent, forcing medical staff with no other transport option but to drive, to park further and further. I've done so for 3 years with no hiccups exactly because I've upheld the road and parking rules without so much as assumption or ignorance on my part.

      So how about you take your assuming, self-righteous attitude away with you and piss off.

      • pegaxs on 04/08/2018 - 22:15
        +2

        Self-righteous attitude? Coming from the person who thinks they have more rights to park, simply because they work in a hospital.

        While I don’t entirely agree with what Herbse said, they have a valid point. Parking laws exist for a reason. It’s usually because of congestion related issues. If there were no parking limits there, you would still have to park miles away due to all the other people parking there all day.

        Just because you work in a hospital, does not give you any more rights to park somewhere. You are an employee, just like everyone else. You’re a number on a punch card. Spare us the “but I work 10 hr shifts in a hospital.” Then you should have studied harder and became a specialist or a surgeon. Those guys get to park at the front door of the hospital.

        You say you have worked and parked there for 3 years. That makes it around 780 days you have parked there (5 days a week average for work). You received a fine of $81. This works out to be around 11c per day that you parked there for 3 years and got away with it without being fined.

        The only person here with a self-righteous attitude, is you. Pay your fine. You have parked for free for the last three years, the least you could do is pay as a way of saying thanks to the council for letting you park every day for work for 11c/day.

        • Jaystea on 05/08/2018 - 16:40
          -2

          Never said I had any right. Anytime I find a parking spot, I count myself lucky. I've gotten previous fines before and paid up and learned from my mistakes.

          This example is different, however. It was at worst, an honest mistake. At best, wronged for confusing rules that clearly many people, even on this thread, cannot come to a consensus to.

          studied harder and became a specialist or a surgeon

          It doesn't work like that, but thanks.
          Idk if you're a wannabe lawyer, or a keyboard warrior. I figure a bit of both, but thanks for your advice posted below nevertheless.

      • Pantagonist on 05/08/2018 - 12:27
        +1

        Hi OP, you may not be checking this thread anymore but in case you are, it looks like staff at the hospital can obtain discounts on or salary package their parking fees.

        http://www.austin.org.au/page?ID=179 (at the bottom)
        http://www.austin.org.au/Assets/Files/Car_Parking_Policy_20-… (policy)

        Not sure if you currently pay for the two hour parking zone but if you do then the on-site parking option could be worth looking at from a convenience perspective.

      • smartazz104 on 05/08/2018 - 18:16
        +2

        It's a shame the hospital can't provide it's staff with parking.

        • pegaxs on 05/08/2018 - 19:30

          That’s one thing I can agree with on OP’s side. It’s absolutely appalling that the hospital doesn’t offer an alternative for parking.

  • GuessHowMuch on 03/08/2018 - 15:55
    +3

    Banyule council is the worst!

    I was parked in a 2 hour zone and came back to find my windscreen smashed. Was obvious that it was unsafe to drive. Came back a few hours later to tow it and saw the parking infringement.

    Appealed via their website - with timeline, pictures, everything. They requested proof that the car had been towed or windscreen replaced, so I sent them the relevant receipts.

    They STILL upheld their decision.

    • tomsco on 03/08/2018 - 16:00

      Banyule council is the worst!

      To be honest, it seems like a lot of councils are a waste of space.

      Bring on the merger of local councils.

  • Tony76 on 03/08/2018 - 22:56
    +2

    As discussed above, the law states

    When moving your car to another parking spot, you must move it out of the area or length of road controlled by the parking sign.

    The key words are "the parking sign", or more importantly, the word "the" (pronounce it 'thee' for emphasis), and the word "area".

    "The" parking sign refers to the one that governs the single parking spot you parked in. (Actually it must legally be 2 signs for a street, but let's move on).

    You moved your car over the road which is now governed by a new sign (signs) and your time is reset.

    The "you must move it out of the area…" part refers to car parks, etc that are clearly bounded by borders, fences, kerbs, etc and are classed as a (car parking) "area".

    It does not mean you must "move out of the area" in terms of leaving the suburb, or even the immediate vicinity, it refers to leaving the parking area - that is the one governed by the sign (signs). On a road these signs must have arrows - left, right, or both left and right, that define the area they control. Once you pass a left pointing arrow (assuming the sign is on the left hand side of the road of a 2 way street), the next right pointing arrow is deemed a new parking area.

    You left the parking area as the one over the street is another, separate parking area.

    The word "area" must be interpreted in this instance as referring to the (clearly defined) parking area, and not the word as is commonly used in sentences such as "do you live in this area?". When used in sentences such as the latter, the word "area" is too broad to use for something that needs great accuracy, such as defining parking limits.

    Think about the size difference in these 2 following sentences.

    "The smell of the homeless man outside McDonalds caused those in the area to screw up their noses in disgust".

    "There's been a bad accident in the city so you should avoid the area if you can".

    The first refers to a small area, perhaps 20 metres, while the second refers to whole city blocks.

    The word is too general and must be more explicit.

    Therefore, in the spirit of the law, the sentence should be interpreted as "…you must move it out of the (parking) area controlled by the parking sign or length of road controlled by the parking sign."

    The whole crux of the argument is whether the other side of the street constitutes a new area - and the law should interpret this as meaning a new parking area, which, because it is defined by separate signs, it is.

    Feel free to print this and use it in court if you feel that it will help.

    Good luck Jaystea.

    • whooah1979 on 04/08/2018 - 06:15

      The penalty notice is $81. It would be a waste of time for a taxpayer to take a day off to go to court. This is a no win situation.

      • Tony76 on 04/08/2018 - 06:47

        It would be a waste of time for a taxpayer to take a day off to go to court. This is a no win situation.

        I can't comment on Jaystea's future intentions, he/she hasn't mentioned their plan to proceed.

        If they don't plan to have the fine overturned I'm not sure what the point of them coming here is, unless it was for tea and sympathy.

    • chumlee on 04/08/2018 - 07:10
      +4

      Thanks Mike Ross but perhaps look up some precedent instead of the dictionary

    • pegaxs on 04/08/2018 - 08:42

      @Tony76:

      Yeah. Cant say I would print that out and hand it to a magistrate and expect any level of success. Unless you have an MS Paint diagram to go with it?…

      As per the "Dictionary" from the road rules legislation…

      area includes:
      (a) a bridge, and
      (b) a network of roads, and
      (c) a slip lane.

      length, of road, includes:
      (a) a marked lane or a part of a marked lane, and
      (b) another part of a length of road.

      Since OP got booked moving to the other side of the road, we can safely say that the time limits were the same on either side of the road (based on OP's explanation). That would mean that there were signs posted on both sides of the road. Since there did not appear to be a median strip it the story, there would not have been signs or parking in the middle of the road.

      area refers to car parks, etc that are clearly bounded by borders, fences, kerbs, etc

      Since we have looked up the legislation's dictionary definition of "Area", we now know that it does not only pertain to what you think it does. While it does cover the type of parking areas you talked about, it also includes things like bridges, slip lanes and "networks of roads" that OP just happened to be using at the time.

      Length of road is also defined as a marked lane or another part of that length of road. Being that the "other side" of the road may be argued that it is not part of the same "lane", it cant be argued that it is not "another part of a length of road."

      So, to move out of the "area" is to move the vehicle out of the area (ie: off the length of road and out of sight), as the word implies. The area is encompassed as that section of road for which the parking limit signs exist. To move it from one side of the road to the other, one would not be moving out of the area, but merely moving out of their space.

      Maybe if the length of road had two distinctly separate parking signs, ie: 15min one side and 2 hours the other, you may be able to say that you are moving between two separate parking areas. But being that both sides were sign posted the same, it would suggest that this whole section of road is to be treated as a complete "area"…

      So, no thanks. Your advice here would be the last thing I would print out if I was hoping to fight this and gain any level of success. OP would have more success saying "I parked there for 10 mins. Left the area for 1.5 hours. Returned and parked for 10 mins on the opposite side and was fined." Problem is, OP didn’t do that. OP wanted 4 hours worth of parking in a area clearly designated by a 2 hour parking limit…

  • Tony76 on 04/08/2018 - 13:30

    Cant say I would print that out and hand it to a magistrate and expect any level of success.

    Neither would I! I'd suggest printing it out, and then reading from it.

    As per the "Dictionary" from the road rules legislation…

    area includes:
    (a) a bridge, and
    (b) a network of roads, and
    (c) a slip lane.

    Substituting that definition into the previous law

    "When moving your car to another parking spot, you must move it out of the area or length of road controlled by the parking sign"

    results in

    "When moving your car to another parking spot, you must move it out of the network of roads or length of road controlled by the parking sign."

    Correct, the other side of the road is not controlled by the parking sign on the opposite side of the road. It is controlled by an entirely separate set of signs.

    Jaystea has moved their car from the "area" controlled by that particular sign into a new "area" controlled by a completely different set of signs.

    This is the beauty, and simultaneous weakness of the law. Words are open to interpretation.

    Personally I'd love to fight this one in court.

    So, no thanks. Your advice here would be the last thing I would print out if I was hoping to fight this and gain any level of success.

    The advice wasn't for you, it was for Jaystea.

    • pegaxs on 04/08/2018 - 22:47

      "When moving your car to another parking spot, you must move it out of the area or length of road controlled by the parking sign"

      This is not the law legislation.

      This is…

      205:
      (1) A driver must not park continuously on a length of road, or in an area, to which a permissive parking sign applies for longer than the period indicated by information on or with the sign…
      (2) For subrule (1), a driver parks continuously on a length of road, or in an area, to which a permissive parking sign applies, from the time when the driver parks on the length of road, or in the area, until the driver, or another driver, moves the vehicle off the length of road, or out of the area, to which the permissive parking sign applies.

      It makes no mention of when "moving" your car. It just says what not to do, ie: "Must not park continuously on/in…"

      A big clincher here is "area". Moving a car across the street is not "out of the area". The whole street is marked as a 2hr parking. On your logic, I could move my car 10m down the street or past the next sign and be clear to park there because "sign says different area". OP was still on that same "length of road" that was signposted with exactly the same signs, restricted to 2 hours…

      OP did NOT move their car off the length of road or out of the area and this is further evidenced by them receiving an infringement. If moving your car across the street was considered off the length of road or out of the area, then OP would have received no such infringement. The parking limit for both sides of the road are the same. This designates the whole section of road (not just a side) as an "area" and is parking time restricted to 2 hours. (Remember our legislation dictionary definition for "length of road?? the (b) another part of a length of road. part?)

      And when you go to court on behalf of OP and plead Not Guilty, and try and convince the magistrate, I would love to be there to witness what is said.

      The advice wasn't for you

      Thank God for that, because I wouldn’t take it. Bad advice is seldom worth taking…

  • Tony76 on 04/08/2018 - 14:06
    -1

    Thanks Mike Ross but perhaps look up some precedent instead of the dictionary

    Perhaps you could provide one. You don't appear to be very useful otherwise.

  • Geryatric on 04/08/2018 - 15:03

    You can only park 2hr per day in an area (at least in NSW - the revenue state!).
    Moving your car down the road or across the other side of the street does entitle you to another 2hrs.

    • Geryatric on 05/08/2018 - 14:06
      +1

      ^does NOT

  • justwii on 04/08/2018 - 15:45

    Just bad luck? Out of the 360 degrees you happened to park again while the previous marker was pointing at 6? Thats 1 out of 360 chance!

  • Ryxxi on 04/08/2018 - 21:53
    +1

    Just pay the fine…court is bad. There is a chance that your name will go into criminal records.

    • pegaxs on 04/08/2018 - 22:49
      +1

      LOL @ criminal…

      It's a civil compliance matter, not a criminal proceeding. But thanks for playing :D

      • [Deactivated] on 05/08/2018 - 11:11

        I'm genuinely astonished that you consider an infringement from a Government authority, a civil matter.

        • pegaxs on 05/08/2018 - 12:53

          Spelling error… Auto corrected from "civic" (ie: civic compliance)… it's a breach of road rules legislation, not of the criminal code. (And certainly not a breach on building regulations.)

          Either way, a parking fine is still not a criminal matter, unless you are parked on top of several pedestrians…

  • burningrage on 05/08/2018 - 07:53

    Maybe it's too late but say for example if this is in City of Melbourne, each area (in my view) is identified by the Paystay codes.

    I noticed that if you park on the same street (say Russell Street) where there is a median parking spot, if you then park on one side (southbound) and then moved to the other side (northbound), then the Paystay code will be different. In fact, the apps will say it's a different street zone too.

    Thus, if you were to do that, in my opinion, you have an avenue to contest the fine ON TOP of the fact there is no photographic evidence.

  • 2man217 on 05/08/2018 - 10:09

    Heres a review I posted to state debt recovery office . In one of the eastern australian states.

    I had parked my car at a 27 degree angle, and the fine stayed. There were garbage bins and I could not move them. when the officer got there he assumed I was angle parked because I was lazy. I did not actually block incoming traffic and the funny thing was on that day there was a cocnrete truck double parked in the middle of the road.

    We considered the circumstances you presented. We also consulted the Caution/Review
    Guidelines. Our investigations conclude the penalty still applies.

    We acknowledge your comments indicating that you cannot angle park because there was a row of garbage bins on the road awaiting collection, however we are unable to cancel the penalty.

    Did you mean? We don't take no for an answer What about if we just reduced the penalty.
    My angle was safe given that the road was quite wide

    When parking at the side of the road you should park in the direction of travel and parallel to the left hand kerb. Your vehicle must not face oncoming traffic.
    Angle parking is only permitted in areas where signposting specifically states angle parking in required. These are the final comments from the reviewing party, I paid the fine and was salty but then realised the law wins.

  • Tony76 on 05/08/2018 - 10:51
    +1

    …to which the permissive parking sign applies.

    It's moved to the length of road where a new, separate parking sign applies.

    As I stated above, a parking sign on one side of the road does not apply to the other side of the road.

    As it does not apply, no offence has been committed!

    You are reading as far as "must be moved to a new area or length of road" and then turning your brain off.

    If you finish the sentence "to which the permissive parking sign applies", you'll see that the sign opposite does not apply to the other side.

    • pegaxs on 05/08/2018 - 13:21
      -1

      Good Lord… Still wrong.

      So, what you are saying is that every parking sign on any part of a road is a new area? So, I can move my car, say, two car lengths to the next parking sign and the timer starts again??

      The parking signs on the south side of the road do not apply to the north side. That, I agree with. And that would be fine if these were two distinctly different parking zones with different parking restrictions, ie: 2hrs one side and 15m on the other. But since the road has the same signs posted on both sides, this makes it a "parking area", meaning, you cannot remain parked in this "area" for longer than the posted time limit. The legislation is pretty clear that the driver must move the vehicle "out of the area"…

      The signs make the whole area a 2hr zone, not just one side… Hence the reason OP got a ticket.

  • 2man217 on 05/08/2018 - 12:14

    Hey, how come the administrators dont really allow uploading images here. Wouldnt visual learnign explain the problem betta.

    Ta mates

  • belongsinforums on 05/08/2018 - 16:54

    Pay the$80 and move on

  • Tony76 on 05/08/2018 - 17:13
    +1

    So, I can move my car, say, two car lengths to the next parking sign and the timer starts again??

    Yes.

    The legislation is pretty clear that the driver must move the vehicle "out of the area"…

    No, it's not clear, else we wouldn't be having this lively debate. Once again you are half quoting the sentence, and thus distorting it's message. It ends with "..to which the permissive parking sign applies".

    I'm arguing that the permissive sign on one side doesn't apply to the other side of the road, hence a new time limit applies. All parking areas have a beginning, and an end. They begin with a right facing arrow, and end with a left. Once ended, they do not apply to anywhere else.

    As I said earlier, it is open to interpretation. Yes, I agree that it says the car must be moved out of the area - the one covered by that sign. New sign, new area, new time limit.

    Surely there's a precedent for this?

  • smartazz104 on 05/08/2018 - 18:20

    OP the problem here is, the inspector has chalked all the cars in the area around 9:30AM or so. You have moved you car after 2 hours, thinking you were safe. Were you not aware how council enforces the 2 hour rule? As far as the inspector is concerned, they have chalked cars at 9:30, then come back around 12:00PM (so more than 2 hours, you got a bit of leeway and still stuffed up), found your car with a chalk mark, and produced a fine.

  • [Deactivated] on 05/08/2018 - 18:24

    If you were considering going to court anyway -
    Could you instead sue them for failing to maintain a system and/or training to adequately assess a violation of council parking laws.

    Including reimbursement of all previous fine payments, presumably, wrongfully assessed up until a time council can esablish corrent procedure was followed.

    Is a chalk mark adequate in a day of high tech, mass surveilance and satellite tracking? At very lease gps coords and/or parking bay ID should be included in any legal procedure.

  • Moderatorscotty on 06/08/2018 - 09:10

    Thread closed as requested by OP.

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