Hi everyone,
I'm being taken to a rental tribunal in a few weeks (as a tenant). Not something I have any experience with.
Has anyone been to one before? Do you have any general advice? How do they work?
We're talking some paint chips, some rust marks on balcony tiles, and an accusation of not returning a key.
I agree. I offered to fix the paint chips myself, but was told a full wall repaint was the only option, which I disagreed with.
As I've never been to a tribunal before, I don't know whether I'm better off just submitting and letting some of my bond go, or it's worth fighting it?
Go through with it. If you have photos that will help. As above user mentioned paint chips are wear and tear over 12 months. The key - not so sure about. Did you just drop it in a letterbox? Did you happen to film or take a photo of the return? Are they claiming they want to change the locks now?
You basically enter a room similar to a courtroom only much smaller. You have a judge and a typist, the owner will plead their case and you will plead your defence and they will either make a decision then and there or get back to you in a week if they need to mull over it. Defitnelty worth your time though. Sounds like an experienced landlord. Bring a witness if you can to support anything you say (roommate, partner, friend)
Was all rent paid up and you exited on an agreed date? The more proof you have the better (texts, photos, lease conditions etc).
Yes dropped it in the letterbox.
They have no evidence they ever gave us this specific key (they have a photocopy of all other keys). So I'm not sure how they would prove we haven't returned the key.
All they've claimed is we haven't returned the key to them. They haven't told us they'd like to change the locks or anything. It simply states 'key not returned' in the tribunal letter.
There will be two of us attending the tribunal.
Rent and bills all paid up and we exited on the agreed dates. Apartment cleaned to a high standard, carpets cleaned professionally.
I will print out and highlight all our correspondence where appropriate.
There isn't any point me providing photos. The chips and rust were us, and I'm not trying to debate otherwise. I see them as fair wear and tear.
@leethompson: I think it would be prudent to bring photos with you, just to show the magistrate the extent of the wear and tear. The point of bringing photos wouldn't be to prove/disprove the existence of those paint chips and rust, it would be to demonstrate that they weren't to an extent that a full repaint was required. It makes sure that the landlord can't exaggerate the extent of the damage, and you really have nothing to lose by bringing them along.
Just come prepared with evidence, state the facts, use photos, don't waste the members time. Just state the facts.
You're going to win big time.
Cranky landlord taking you to tribunal? How did it happen?
Paint chips are generally considered fair wear and tear.
I would love to hear the reason why you are accused of tiles rusting. Should be considered fair wear and tear.
The unreturned key just sounds like an excuse to get an additional $$ amount out of you, so the landlord can change his locks.
We had an outdoor table and chair setting, plus a heater. It rained, and there is now rust marks where those items were.
The accusation listed in the tribunal is simply 'Rust marks on tiles'.
edit I'm not sure what happened with the key. It worked the day we moved out, and we handed it back to them. They had a photocopy of all the keys we were given, except this one, so I'm thinking they don't actually have any evidence they gave us a key anyway. We definitely handed back the correct one.
What is the quantum of dollars that the landlord is after? Have they specified an amount to remedy the property?
They sent us a quote to repaint all walls of the apartment which came to $1500.
They also want us to pay for a battery for a garage door remote which has never worked for us. They said this will be $20.
We havent been quoted for anything else.
@leethompson: Good lord. How large is this apartment?!
Tell him he's dreaming.
Here's some info on fair wear and tear and paint chips: Link
Unless you were throwing chairs into the wall, I think you have a reasonable claim for chipping paint and scuff marks.
$1500 for the wall? they may patch it up and repaint as a little as $100 if you DIY
Garage door remote A25 or A27, you can buy off ebay for $5 and replace, but battery is more wear and tear.
Point this out to during the tribunal.
i do understand that the landlord worry the quality for the work.Never they should at east give you the opportunity to fix it prior applying for tribunal.
They should at least do a mediation before they proceed further.
Is it worth me continuing to contact the agent until the tribunal offering to complete the patching work? I sent them an email a week ago offering, and then on Saturday offering and have no reply to either.
It's worth noting I asked for them to let me know the exact colour of the paint to complete the patching and they refused to tell me.
No point keep doing it, you have done your bit and just they refuse to let you do it. Agent may be the one who is playing up here by not passing on all information/requests. As they will get paid to go to tribunal. if the landlord presenting himself then it will be the landlord playing up.
I think it is fair to give opportunity to rectify issue that they find and not agreed by you, they just trying get the most out from your bond.
you can email them and assure that all email conversation will be present in the tribunal and it is you not given opportunity to rectify. And the reduction of the rent has nothing to do with you as this is market rate and the fixes can take place after the new tenant move in.
I'm sure something like wd40 would get the rust off.
Only problem is that if the tenant has vacated, he can no longer attempt to remedy the "damage". Landlord sounds like they're a martyr and want to extra extra money from OP.
Basically yeah. We moved out 3 weeks ago and the property is now vacant and price has been dropped by $110 a week. I think they’re just trying to recoup their losses.
@leethompson: Sydney Metro Residential Rents are down almost across the board.
Any insinuation that the rate drop is a result of your damage will be laughed off by a mediator/arbitrator.
@QW3RTY:
Good to know. We were wondering if they were going to blame these 'issues' on it being vacant for 3 weeks.
Just get your evident ready and prepare to provide them.
State all the fact, if it is wear and tear or you damage the wall etcv.
Ready to settle if anything is your at fault.
Tribunal is a place to get thing done and they will provide you with mediation so that 2 parties can agree not to proceed further.
I think it must be lots of damage to an extend that your landlord want to take you to tribunal. If they are presented by agent would have cost them few hundred only for the agent to show up.
Be Prepared you matter wouldn't be heard on the first meeting.
Pics
I can post the photos but it's not really what i’m looking for advice on. I admit the rust marks and paint chips are our doing.
If it's just on tiles, the rust can probably be dispatched with a bit of CLR and a stiff brush.
I did try to remove it myself, and so did the professional cleaners. Nothing worked.
Find you "incoming tenant report" where you have "identified" all the issues with your property; compare it with that they are now demanding. Hopefully the issues you identified back when you moved in is listed. If it is - you are good. If if not, then you might be up shi7 creek.
The apartment was brand new when we moved in. So sadly none of these things were issues when we moved in (apart from the garage key, which never worked).
Do you have any records of previous correspondence with your landlord where you've indicated that the garage key was faulty?
Yes, an email was sent to them a few days after we moved in stating it wasn't working.
They replied and said we should contact the building manager. We did and got no response.
We don't own a car so we weren't overly bothered.
@leethompson: Probably a good idea to bring copies of that correspondence too, to show that the key didn't work from the time you moved in
Just let them do it, they waste their own time and money.
The onus of proof is on them, they need to be able to prove everything they are claiming against you.
Oh and make sure you bring paper copies of all your stuff, in our hearing we couldn't show stuff that wasn't printed (luckily, not needed in the end).
How did you find the whole process? I've heard they just want you to compromise.
To be fair, I did mine in QLD.
At first we were a bit worried we'd be taken for a ride (4 young men renters, vs one woman landlord) especially when the landlord kept getting concessions like not having to actually appear in the hearing, only over phone, moving the date for her one week before the set date despite us already taking time off work/uni, etc.
In the end, the person who ran the hearing was very fair and the landlord had no proof of anything she was claiming, but we had proof for our side. So we had a very satisfying result.
Thanks. That gives me a little more confidence of the process. I do feel like the agencies just thinks they can keep kicking and eventually we'll just give in.
The agency does have proof of most of the issues, but I also have proof I've tried to resolve the issues with them multiple times.
Thanks. That gives me a little more confidence of the process. I do feel like the agencies just thinks they can keep kicking and eventually we'll just give in.
Yep, that's what their method is. Chances are they'll realise it's not worth their time and bail on
I've never had one go to court before as there has always been a settlement - just remember, unless the landlord is representing themself, they are paying a real estate agent between $60-$120 per hour to front up at court for them. The court with travel takes around 4 hours so the landlord is getting no change out of the repairs if the amount is $240-$480 - the only beneficiary in this situation is the real estate agent.
Paint chips - without seeing them, I would be arguing that is fair wear and tear. However, in good faith, you also offered to patch the chips and were not given the opportunity to remedy their issue (take documents). They are not experts in painting and cannot determine if a wall needs a patch or full repaint. This will not be looked at favorably by the tribunal, particularly given the place is untenanted and you would have been able to access the property to perform the repair.
Keys not returned - this is a common scam for agents to bolster the claim amount. In hindsight, leaving them locked inside the place or getting them signed on return is preferable, but the way to prove this on in the absence of either of those solutions is to get your Google Maps location history showing you going to the letterbox where you dropped them at that date and time.
Remote - not on the hook for this one with your correspondence you have.
Rust - I would not consider this fair wear and tear and I would suggest you settle this one before the tribunal to reduce the claim amount. Reducing the total claim amount gets it closer to that "not worthwhile" amount for the landlord.
Good luck, but my advice would be to go through with anything you don't believe you should be paying for and have a read through some determinations on the Fair Trading website to get examples of previous determinations.
Great thank you. I will continue to email them with my offers of compromise. I don't see how it can do any harm.
We did return keys to them, and they're not disputing us not dropping them off. They're saying one of the keys (which was given to us by the builders, so the agency have never seen it) is missing. It's not.
The rust - we had cleaners try and clean it and they couldn't. Would we be looking at replacement tiles? That would cost a fortune.
I don't know how they are making a claim against the bond if they do not have an amount they are claiming. There are some strict timelines around disputes in NSW and it is odd they have not given you a price for whatever the tiles component of the claim is. I wouldn't think it would be tile replacement. At my own place I left a gas bottle on tiles and it rusted. All it took to remove was CLR. I don't think this is a product most cleaners carry with them so it may not have been tried.
The key one is laughable then. I would like to see the evidence they submit for that.
I've not heard of CLR. Is it worth me making an offer to try and clean the rust off? I didn't know such thing existed and tried with various liquids to remove it.
@leethompson: For sure, particularly while there is no one in there. Will help your case at the tribunal if they refuse too.
CLR is the best known brand name, but many there are many rust remover products.
@derpdeder:
Is it pretty certain it'll work?
This is the rusty tile heater marks:
https://scontent.fcbr1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/41442485_101…
@leethompson: I'm certain you'll be able to remove it - it won't require a replacement of the tiles. Perhaps go with a couple of products though.
This one used Ajax powder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twvpsDik-5U
Here are a few options: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6GfsaT3VoA
Rust removers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6GfsaT3VoA & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6A8wcUTN88
Great thank you! I've emailed them saying I'm willing to come back and remove the rust stains. I doubt they're going to reply but I imagine it'll look better on me either way.
@leethompson: I'm not sure if they can legally deny you the chance to fix something before they pay someone to do it, but I'm not certain. Maybe within a certain time frame.
i went once with a previous real estate. we'd been so unhappy with the conduct of that real estate that we were breaking the lease because of what they'd been up to. while we were waiting for the tribunal, the guy from the real estate was filling out more tribunal paperwork. this real estate must have tried taking everyones bond when they moved out. most people wouldn't bother going to the tribunal because you have to get out of work.
the process is fairly straightforward. you go into a mini courtroom, the judge guy tells you to go off and try and sort it out via "mediation", you come back later when that doesn't work and have a mini trial, then the judge laughs at most of what the real estate is complaining about, and you get most of your bond back. the worst part for us, was that there had been so many issues that the real estate had caused, but because we hadn't submitted our own paperwork to the tribunal, they won't consider them. if anything in the situation i was in i should have got more than my whole bond back
We submitted a full refund and they're disputing it, so it would be them submitting paperwork right?
It's good to know how the whole process works.
yeah they'll have submitted stuff saying what they aren't happy about, but if you had any issues with them, it won't be considered when they come to a determination on what money you get back.
That's fine with me. They were a bit rubbish, but we didn't have any major issues with them.
You'll win and the landlord will be laughed out of the tribunal.
They've now made an offer to us to drop the tribunal if we pay them $1000 from the bond.
We offered $400.
Don't do it! Seriously, they know that they won't get a cent at the tribunal.
Let them waste their money applying for the tribunal.
I'm happy to do $400 to just avoid the whole thing. No way I'm paying more than that.
You owe them $0. They won't go to tribunal because they know they'll lose. That's why they're getting desperate now.
And unsurprisingly they’ve rejected $400 and asked for $1000 again.
What was the result?
They came back with $1000 again, and we offered $400 again.
Waiting for their reply, and the tribunal is on Monday.
They’ve now dropped the key and remote issues.
@leethompson: So they've dropped 2 items that they are claiming against the bond, but are still asking for the same amout, $1000? Seems like they are making up values.
Is that their actual claim on the bond, or how much they are 'willing' to settle for?
@theguyrules:
The repainting the walls is $1400ish, they also still have the rust on the tiles but haven't provided any figures for it.
They're basically saying now if we just forfeit $1000 they'll forget the rust and call the tribunal off.
@leethompson: I wouldn't be worried, there isn't a chance they'll get $1400 from you to repaint the walls for some wear and tear.
At most, if you're unlucky, you'd lose a hundred or so for touch ups.
@theguyrules:
I really hope so. I've been trying to get a few quotes for touch ups to present to show how cheap it would be but everyone I ask wants to come out and see it to do the quote (and I don't live there any more).
@leethompson [leethompson]
I have a similar situation, wall repainting claims against my bond, will be attending the tribunal hearing soon. Wondering how did you go with your hearing? In our case they are claiming kids drawing on a wall. Also the agent did the outgoing inspection without us, didn't provide the outgoing inspection report but in an email listed the points. I have asked multiple times to provide the photos but she didn't.
Thanks
I negotiated down to $400 from the $1400 or whatever it was and avoided the tribunal. But for me as I had just purchased a house I wasn't too bothered about what they may have done to my rental history/references.
From what I got from here though I think you'll be in a good position. Do let me know how it all goes.
The whole thing has just taught me to read reviews though. The reviews for the agent online all state they'll try and go for your bond whatever you do.
Thanks mate, yeah, we cleaned the walls and the cleaners cleaned the walls twice. Honestly I do not remember any drawings at all, there could be minor marks but not major. Their original quoted figures were twice high then now what they are claiming (after I challenged them and took a sample quote too). For example they quoted one wall repainting as $250 (they are claiming three walls). My argument is first I am not liable and second even if I had to pay then I should be paying the depreciated costs (the house is about 8 years old). Furthermore on day one of our lease I paid $250 to my cleaners to get the property cleaned as it was dirty with bathroom full of dead insects, kitchen floor dirty, carpets not cleaned etc (and then we paid professional cleaners and steam cleaned the carpets at the end of tenancy too). During the tenancy they made me pay for replacing a toilet seat too that broke down ( the plastic bolts). So now for me it is more than just the money.
Do you have receipts for all those things? If so take it all along.
@ldt: Yep, have talked to tenancy advocates (didn't even know something like that existed) and they told me to get everything that could directly or indirectly support my case.
@Strikes: Hi sure
- so they claimed about $1200 and I agreed to about $400.
- I requested my bond back directly
- they put the claim in
- I was notified by the Tribunal
- The sent me a pile of documents as their evidence
- I was required to send mine which I did
- first hearing was after about 3 months (Apr)
- I went there, hearing time was 2:00 pm (
- First someone from the Tribunal worked with us to mediate and settle without hearing (Tribunals are overloaded and they prefer settlements)
- about an hour we talked - I went up to $500 - they (the agent) came down to $650 (before the hearing they had already come down to about $800 after my objections on inflated quotes etc)
- I didn't move and they didn't come down any further
- hearing finally at about 3:30 - Tribunal heard both the sides and the Tribunal mediator also gave his input (mainly on the outcome of negotiation)
- Tribunal asked both the parties to consider settling down the matter (mentioning the costs involved like a day off from work etc for the next hearing as they could not hear on that day and a new date was to be given) - I stood ground that no further compromise as I already had spent more than what I should as a tenant - The agent based on land lord's advice on the phone did not back down further either.
- So came back (agent on the way back asked to reconsider their offer)
- the next hearing date I think we got was in Sep
- I offered on the email after about a couple of weeks $550
- they accepted
- matter closed and the bond was paid back.
I hope that helps.
PS: Another friend of mine has a dispute going on in tribunal over a building construction matter and it's already an year, they had the hearing this early Oct and after the whole day of hearing the matter was not decided and the next date is now in Mar.
Seems to be very little to be going to a rental tribunal over?
Most landlords would be surprised if that is all the tennant left the property with…