Saw a listing on eBay that really interests me, but the seller is new (2days) with no feedback, the price seems too good to be true, so i figured this to be a scam.
However, I am curious, if paypal was selected as the payment option, what happens if the seller withdraw all money from their paypal account? Does that void buyer protection? Since paypal can't force any money from the said account.
Feedback or not is irrelevant, since I'm not going to buy from a suspicious seller. Its the whole paypal buyer protection that baffles me.
Paypal claims that they can refund full cost + initial shipping if buyer wins the case. But to my understanding, that money is forced out of the seller's paypal account, now if there was no money on the said account to begin with, or the seller just closes the account for good, what happens then? Does paypal dig from their own pockets?
So seller feedback is relevant, because without it Paypal does not offer buyer protection.
However in the case of obtaining a good feedback rating, then closing the account.. who knows.. and it's not clear in the terms.
I just looked into this very briefly the other day for exactly this reason, and I don't recall seeing anything about the seller requiring a certain amount of feedback.
What are you talking about?
Paypal Buyer Protection has absolutely NOTHING to do with the seller's feedback level. You are equally covered against a seller with 12,000 feedback as you are against a seller with Minus 3 feedback.
In fact, you are covered even if it's not an eBay purchase!
Fair enough, looks like I'm wrong :)
Your question reveals exactly why I hate PayPal. PayPal preaches all this 'buyer/seller protection' bullshit, but at the end of the day, PayPal are as money hungry as anyone else. PayPal generally won't have any problems refunding your money IF they can get a hold of it from the seller (provided you supply proof of purchase etc.). But in the case they cannot get the money from the seller (ie. he has withdrawn already), they will 9 times out of 10 side with the seller and disregard your dispute entirely - all just to save their own asses from dishing out money.
I don't blame PayPal for this (they are after all a COMPANY trying to earn MONEY), but at the same time, they can't go on about all this protection that is virtually non-existent in the case that the seller withdraws their money.
In any case, I wish you best of luck with the transaction.
I did not go on with the transaction, simple asking the question because the whole paypal protection seem to have plenty loopholes.
If you're curious, the listing i saw just screamed SCAM. 40% the BUY NOW price of all other listings for the same item elsewhere, and claims to have large quantity in stock. Sure sounds good, but I'm not biting.
Paypal refunds the buyer, then attempts to get the money from the seller. If the seller cannot be located, then Paypal just wears the loss.
The status of the seller's Paypal or Bank Account has absolutely no relevance to the Buyer Protection scheme.
That's exactly what they want you to believe. But do you really expect PayPal to put themselves at a REAL loss? Just think about the millions of disputes they must handle, they might be small or large purchases, but they all add up. Instead, what they'll most likely do is just side with the seller to save themselves having to dish out any money of their own. It might be a bit of a cynical view, but just my 2c.
Perhaps… but tell me of ONE safer method of payment, eh? There is occasionally a problem, but that is extremely rare. There is no "safer" way to buy than Paypal backed by a Credit Card.
The Paypal Protection doesn't hurt anything or increase your risk - it simply ADDS to whatever other protection methods you have available to you.
The way you talk is a bit like people who think that all insurance companies are evil, and that there is no use insuring anything because you heard a story on the internetz that an insurance company didn't pay somebody once. :-D
(EDIT: smiley added, was not intended to be an attack)
An escrow service where the money isn't released until the buyer receives and is happy with the item is one safer method :)
I must confess I don't know of any safer payment method. All I can say is think twice before you read "PayPal Buyer Protection" as being a foolproof money back guarantee. Combined with PayPal's OUTRAGEOUS fees and general lack of protection (in my eyes anyway), I prefer to use other payment methods, Moneybookers for example which I have found to be quite good and hell, a bank deposit might even be safer.
The way I talk is very straightforward. It's not that I think all insurance companies are evil, but the way OP wanted to rely on PayPal to protect him would be a bit like someone insuring their car only to purposely crash it, and hope they would be covered by insurance.
I'm not saying that insurance is a bad thing. What I'm saying is that to intentionally put yourself at higher risk with the understanding that you'd be covered by PayPal isn't going to get you anywhere.
I definitely agree that Paypal (or any other form of insurance) is not a clever way to cover yourself against something that is obviously a high risk activity. It's like taking out personal injury insurance and then doing some car surfing or planking on a 7th story balcony rail :-D
There is absolutely NO WAY that paying by Bank Deposit is safer than Paypal. Yes, your payment will definitely be "safely deposited" into the otehr account, but that is no guarantee that they will send you anything. You cannot reverse a Bank Deposit… they must effectively be classed as a "gift" to the seller. The only manner of getting money back would be to take it to the Small Claims Court - hardly worth it for a small sum, which is exactly what the scammers work on.
Remember that there are no fees for Buyers who use Paypal. Thus there is no reason not to use it, even if it isn't perfect.
I am a long-term assistant on the Ebay forums and have a lot of experience and knowledge about this stuff. These ebay scams are very common, and generally follow a certain pattern.
Popular item - usually about 25% of market price.
New member - zero feedback. They know a trick to bypass the requirements and open a store… this allows them to offer multiple items without the limits set by a minimum feedback rating.
They usually only sell ONE item, and literally hundreds of them. Multiple item listing - often "topped up" with more quantity as they sell. They try to get about 100 purchases, but often get caught and closed down sooner.
There are 2 objectives:
a) They collect information - when you buy they get your ID, your full name, and your registered email address. They only miss one thing… your password. So, in a month or so you get a realistic phishing email that addresses you by your full name (like how they tell you to verify it's a "real" ebay email)… and implore you to click a link to check or fix something.
Bammo… they have everything they need for an account takeover. From the ebay account or your email address they can get your Paypal account, and LOTS of people use the same password [wink]
b) There are a certain percentage of people (like njninjar above) who have an irrational fear and hatred of Paypal. So in this case, they make payment to the scammer by Bank Deposit… a nice freebie gift for the scammer!
OK… what about the money?
From my experience, about half of these scammers never even set up a Paypal account. You try to pay, but the payment sits there "unclaimed". They might sometimes whine that they have a problem and could you please pay by Bank Deposit (see b above). But primarily the scams seem to be about collecting information.
These scammer IDs last about 3 or 4 days… there's plenty of people reporting such scams and eBay closes them down really fast. Once the ID is closed, eBay ALSO deletes all records of the items too! Everyone who's purchased cannot even find the item in My Ebay… and many don't know how to claim when that happens.
The other scam (common with the chinese, but not the Aussie IDs with a Store) is where they send you a chunk of junk plastic, and then when you claim "Not As Described" they say "So sorry, just return it for credit". The value of the transaction is low in relation to teh shipping costs, so lots of people don't bother.
In summary - Paypal does protect you to a degree. But at the end of the day, you aren't going to get a 2TB Hard Drive for $25. Your payment is tied up while the dispute runs, and you expose yourself to phishing scams in teh future (which will come out of the blue, long after you've forgotten the purchase).
If it looks too good to be true - then…
Wow, thanks llama for the great information, very informative. :)
Thanks, I've always wondered what they were aiming to do.
thanks llama! Really interesting read!
new (2days) with no feedback, the price seems too good to be true
i would be wary of this
especially on electrical products as they may be "fake"
Don't be so skeptical of every company. Paypal is a good one.
Read llamas post for your biggest concerns. +1.
Otherwise, for non-scam items, Paypal OFFERS GOOD PROTECTION. —> They do reimburse you first and chase up the seller themselves.
This is from personal experience on TWO occasions, not just wild speculation and conjecture… and in one of the cases I ended up getting my item for free!
I made a purchase on eBay a few years ago from overseas that arrive damaged. It was unusable. I claimed through paypal & they told me they could only recover about 1/2 my money, as that was all the seller had left in their paypal account. They refunded me that amount. They told me they would 'endeavour to recover the rest from the seller' or words to that effect. Never happened. The seller stopped selling however. But I was never compensated the balance of the amount.
So their protection has serious limitations.
I had another eBay purchase from the UK which the seller assured me they had sent via seamail (it was alot cheaper that airmail as would have been a large package). So I didn't do a claim even though it seemed to be getting rather late arriving. By the time the seller stopped answering my emails, & I realised they were lying it was too late to claim through paypal. There is a time limit from when you pay to when you are no longer able to claim. It think its 45 days? Anyway, that a@@hole got about $150 of my money. Paypal did not protect me at all there.
You have to know the limits to the protection you get with paypal. These are 2 examples from my own bad experiences. So don't expect they will back you up 100% in all situations.
That first one was more than "a few years ago", spacecowboy. The Buyer Protection has completely changed since then, and it hasn't been dependant on the seller's account balance for ages (years).
Regarding the other UK one - there are now warnings that pop up in My Ebay if you don't leave feedback. A message shows up that says "Problem with this transaction? Don't miss the 45 day deadline for filing a dispute" or similar. Of course, if you ignore the then Paypal won't cover you!
The most important thing with paypal is to keep up to date with the CURRENT User Agreement and Protection policies. Due to ongoing changes (about twice yearly), the anecdotal "evidence" that you read on the net about Paypal is almost certainly completely out of date and wrong.
Here is the current policy, updated TODAY (no major changes) http://preview.tinyurl.com/658af2o
Scroll down to Schedule 2 (Buyer Protection)
You don't forget when you get ripped off. You are right the first was 5-6 years back, but this was what happened, & affected my faith in Paypal. Can you blame me for being cynical of their guarantees & promises of protection after that?
The second incident was a seamail delivery from the UK which normally takes about 8 weeks, so how could I have made a claim within 45 days?
I've wondered ever since that when I see people selling tickets to concerts & sporting events months in advance how buyers can possibly be protected when there is a 45 day limit? Yet eBay allows listings like this even today. Why? Because they want to make a buck, first & foremost. It's why they took 'The Big Day Out' to court a few years ago when they dared to try to stop people scalping BDO tickets on eBay at grossly inflated prices.
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2006/s1813870.htm
Here is an example of $800 worth of tickets on sale now well outside the 45 day limit.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ENRIQUE-IGLESIAS-SYD-23-JULY-3-X-…
Are people who buy these kind of tickets with paypal protected at all?
These days I still purchase with Paypal. But I use my credit card as the source of funds for all purchases so I can do a claim through my bank if there is a problem. I would not rely on paypal 'protection' to represent my interests.
I know how you feel - I got booked for speeding by a policeman once in 1979, and I still hate them. :-D
Paypal covers you for non-delivery if you claim within 45 days. If the seller in the UK was so stupid to send something by Seamail, then you could have raised a claim and won it even if the item was still in-transit.
No idea why you bring ticket resale into it, and that irrelevant stuff about BDO? I assume another "beef" of yours?
Anyway, ticket resale is legal - but if the ticket wasn't delivered, then the buyer would be covered by Paypal. Cannot understand why you'd leave it longer than 45 days to claim, since that is plenty of time for a small letter to arrive.
Regarding Enrique - It's irrelevant when the concert is… if the tickets don't arrive within 45 days from date of purchase, then you make a claim and get a refund. What else do you want Paypal to cover you for? LOL
llama what happens when you turn up at the concert & can't get in as the tickets you were sold are fake? Where are paypal of help then 60 days or more after your paid? That's the point.
Or don't people still sell fake stuff on eBay every day of the year… Has that been 'fixed' now too? LOL
If you're concerned about fake tickets (or other fake items) then I would suggest not buying them. There are inherent risks in buying online and while PP certainly helps, it is not there to cover you for absolutely every case and scenario. People should take at least some responsibility for what they buy, and if they're not confident in the seller then they probably shouldn't be buying.
This is all a bit like saying kids shouldn't climb trees because they might fall out or something.
I buy online all the time. The difference is sites like Amazon & others are the 'seller', & also own the site. So you do not have to worry about getting gypped by a third party.
Unfortunately, eBay attracts no friggin end of scam artists posing as 'sellers'. Even after all these years the problem is still obvious & visible. eBay have not solved it with all the years they have had to deal with it, & all the resources they have thrown at it. I can't think of any other business that asks its customers to accept an exposure to risk like this.
What makes eBay so special that I need so much 'protection' just to shop there?
I can go to any other reputable online business, or established bricks & mortar store, & shop without any of this trouble. There are bargains all over the place these days…
I think you are jumping at shadows, spacecowboy.
As Evil-elmo mentions, there is no substitute for common sense when buying online. The whole reason for Ebay Feedback is so that you can research your sellers and make an informed decision. Your chances of being scammed are neglible if you buy tickets from a renowned ticket seller, rather than some random.
Anyway, if you didn't use Paypal, would you be covered? And even if you were, wouldn't you verify the tickets were valid PRIOR to the event (ie: within 45 days) rather than just trying to take a chance, miss out on the event and THEN make (or miss out on) a claim?
Hell, Paypal provides added protection for the majority of NORMAL online purchases, and significantly (massively) reduces the risk associated with buying from unknown people on places like eBay.
But Paypal is not a nanny that holds your hand or super-soft cotton wool that protects you from everything that might go wrong in your life. It is not going to make every single aspect of online purchasing suddenly become totally perfect…. it is a safety net that costs you NOTHING to use, and improves your online security considerably.
It's a bit like Anti-Virus software, actually… never 100%perfect, but you'd be mad not to use it to reduce the risk.
I thought protection only applies to certain transactions, where the seller has a feedback rating over the threshold?