Unsealed Laundry Tiling, Incorrectly Plumbed Sink and Washing Machine Flood - Tenant or LL insurance?

SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 12:40

Hi All, I'll keep this one short.

We have just returned from holidays to a water damage issue at our rental property. Our bedroom shares a wall with the outdoor laundry and while we were away it seems that our house sitters used the washing machine and the drainage hose has slipped out of its makeshift holder in the sink and drained behind the basin. This has caused water to come through some large (until now unknown) holes in the tiles going through the dry wall, floor and into our bedroom soaking the carpet.

We are trying to get the real estate to get the LL to use his Tenant insurance to send someone to inspect, and fix any major issues. The RE wont do anything stating its entirely our fault, however there are several issues with the laundry that caused this to happen so we believe the LL/RE should be taking responsibility or at least part of.

Firstly, the basin in the laundry has the two holes for the washing machine drainage hose, however these are not actually plumbed. There is just the single pipe for the general basin meaning we've had to rig up a makeshift hose holder to drain into the sink. This is what has slipped and cause the water damage.

Secondly, we thought and expected the laundry was a fully tiled wet area which should prevent issues if the hose were to slip. However while trying to figure out the issue we discovered there are two large unsealed pipes/holes in the tiles under the sink which is where the water has entered into the wall, and through to the bedroom.

Thoughts? Would/Should this be covered by LL Insurance? We have renters insurance and we are using it to dry the carpet professionally, however they wont cover any other structural issues/damage or mould issues etc.

Here are some photos for reference: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1cM2pL3__Dh3KgUJvtvdL…

Thanks,

Home & Garden

Comments

  • xuqi on 17/08/2019 - 12:58
    +13

    As the damage was caused by your machine & sitters, the responsibility of repairs will be yours.

    Given the expert tiling display around the tap, I'd wager the tiling was most likely done personally by your LL, or someone with little to no experience. Did you raise this (incomplete piping, tiling) as an issue with your RE or LL prior to this damage?

    https://www.bunnings.com.au/kinetic-pvc-washing-machine-hose…

    • SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 14:14

      Yeah a guy just came in to assess the carpet and laughed at the tiling job/holes and the laundry room isn't actually siliconed etc.

      We hadn't raised the holes as an issue as we never knew about them until today when trying to figure out how the water made its way though the walls and into the bedroom.

      We had mentioned the plumbing was incomplete in the sink before this but never written, and not asked to have it fixed. We didn't think it would ever be an issue as if it ever flooded we assumed the laundry would be sealed etc. But it's obviously not.

    • SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 14:27

      Also thanks for the link, I'll be getting one of these, hopefully it'll hold better.

      • xuqi on 17/08/2019 - 14:40

        I would think it should help. Older machines used to be supplied with similar parts. Here's a photo of how the piping below should have been installed:

        https://imgur.com/a/M1YWBBe

        • SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 15:17

          Yeah it doesn't have that. I'm requesting they send a plumber to insall one now.

  • try2bhelpful on 17/08/2019 - 13:34
    +1

    It sounds like the person setting up the house has done it on the cheap. Frankly, rather than coming here where you will cope all sorts of flack, go talk to these guys and find out where you stand.

    https://www.tuv.org.au/

    Best of luck.

    • SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 14:23

      Yeah definitely, the carpet guy just came and said the laundry isn't actually sealed, just grouted, also laughed at the tiling job in general and holes in the wall under the sink.

  • robbyjones on 17/08/2019 - 13:39
    +4

    Landlord insurance wont cover that. If a pipe came out and subsequently damage occurred and you are responsible for making sure the pipe is in the required place then the resultant damage will be yours to fix. I'd suggest you hire a carpet cleaner and suck up as much of the water as you can. Place fans on the carpet and the wall to dry as quickly as possible.

    You may also find that having people stay in your rental property whilst you are not there could be considered sub-letting and may contravene your lease.

    • SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 14:22

      Well the required place isn't actually plumbed though… There's no pipes under the sink so the only way is to have the hose running directly into the sink and we've had to teather the hose into place.

      We have renters insurance and they just sent someone out to dry the carpet. However because it's a rental they aren't able to do any actual work to the property without written consent from the LL/RE (such as pulling up the carpet to dry it properly or replacing it). All they can do is use the dryer.

      We informed the RE we had house sitters staying (as we were gone for a month and they looked after our dog). RE were fine with it.

      Also the house sitters called the RE when it happend and they sent out a plumber. He just said it was the washing machine hose and not the roof or pipes as they had thought then left. So they layed some towels and put some fans on it to try dry it.

      • HighAndDry on 19/08/2019 - 10:28
        +2

        There's no pipes under the sink so the only way is to have the hose running directly into the sink and we've had to teather the hose into place.

        That's still your responsibility. You connected the pipe in a way that it could slip.

  • oscargamer on 17/08/2019 - 14:12
    +2

    All yours OP. That said, you should get your house sitters to reimburse you.

    • SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 14:31

      Well we're paying for the carpet to be dried using our renters insurance. A guy just came out but they can't do anything structurally or remove/replace carpet etc. They said that's up to the LL's I insurance to send and assess anything past the carpet.

      We'll be asking the RE/LL to plumb the sink properly and seal the laundry after all this.

      • zealmax on 19/08/2019 - 15:45

        Who will the LL insurance company be chasing to recoup the costs? My guess is the person/parties at fault.

        • SkMed on 19/08/2019 - 18:01

          Assuming he has (decent) insurance he will be covered under an escape of liquid clause. Our renters insurance has it and doesn't matter how it happens, however it only covers our personal effects. His should cover the building/property i.e. the carpet and any internal damage etc. With so much push back either the RE doesn't want to do any work or he doesn't have any…

  • o53djz7qTPY4der on 17/08/2019 - 15:02
    +4

    That power board….

    • SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 15:19

      haha, yeah I know. I had to move it to get in and take photos etc, was waiting for someone to comment on it. It's not usually like that :D

    • panorama on 18/08/2019 - 09:30

      BAZINGA

  • Stewardo on 17/08/2019 - 15:55
    +6

    Those laundry tubs are one size fits all and the drainage holes at the left and right rear can be potentially plumbed in, in your case they are not. How the drain pipe could “slip” accidentally into those holes is impossible. Your sitter put the drain in there thinking they were connected.
    If you had connected the machine correctly to the inlet on the waste pipe under the sink this wouldn’t have happened. You and your house sitter are at fault. For what it’s worth the tiling above and below the sink is terrible. But not the cause of the water damage.

    • SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 17:10
      +2

      No you've missunderstood, they didn't put the hose into the drainage hole. I had it setup with the hose zip tied to the tap and pointing into the sink. The hose had slipped slightly so was pointing up a little causing water to go behind the sink (and then down the tiles into those two big gaping holes discovered under the sink). They sent me photos so I know for sure they didn't put the hose into the (unplumbed) drainage holes in the sink.

      Sorry what do you mean: "If you had connected the machine correctly to the inlet on the waste pipe under the sink". There is no inlet under the sink… it hasn't been plumbed properly as per the photos.

      We just had the carpet drying guy in and he also confirmed the whole laundry isn't sealed! It's just regular grout, so could have even just gone straight through the grout… Shouldn't a wet/tiled area such as a laundry be sealed?

      • Stewardo on 17/08/2019 - 18:27

        You set up a “makeshift” plumbing setup that failed.
        The inlet can be seen clearly in your first photo on the right hand side of the white pipe if you had used the hole in the left hand side of the laundry tub to feed the drain hose down and connected it to the outlet with a hose clamp correctly this wouldn’t have happened. You can’t blame the owner for you neglecting to connect the hose correctly. The grout or the lack of sealant is not to blame.

        • SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 20:32

          No it's not an inlet, its shaped like one but it's actually sealed closed, I just double checked it to be sure. Connecting to that would just cause the hose to explode everywhere. So really theres no way to drain the washing machine other than rigging something to sit in the sink.

        • SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 20:45

          Also we've been at the property for 2.5 years with the hose rigged up the same way and had multiple inspections with it not raising any eyebrows. We mentioned the drainage holes not being connected the first time we had an inspection and they were fine with the setup.

          We didn't know the laundry wasn't sealed (and the wall had gaping holes directly below) otherwise we definitely would have requested them to plumb it properly, seal the grout and cover the holes etc.

    • SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 17:25
      +1

      The whole thing would need to be replumbed to include an inlet for the waste pipe as per the image Xuqi posted above:

      https://m.imgur.com/a/M1YWBBe

      Ours doesn't have this inlet, it's solid.

      • Stewardo on 17/08/2019 - 18:35

        In this photo there is a yellow plastic thing hanging off the inlet that you have in your first photo. Yours is on the right hand side.

        • SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 20:40

          No, thats sealed closed. Or are we supposed to drill out the plastic or something ourselves?

          • Stewardo on 17/08/2019 - 21:00
            +2

            @SkMed: Yes drill out the one on the right

            • SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 21:01

              @Stewardo: 🤣 take another look, it's physically impossible to get a drill into that space haha.

              • johnno07 on 19/08/2019 - 06:49

                @SkMed: It's thin plastic. It doesn't need a huge power drill. The hose is flexible and would get on there, even with the inlet facing the way it is. I also belive with a wrench you could have loosened that section and rotated it if you wanted. This is how you should have connected the drain. Washing machines move around so the fact that jankily zip tying the drain hose to something failed is wholly unsurprising.

              • brad1-8tsi on 19/08/2019 - 10:20

                @SkMed:

                take another look, it's physically impossible to get a drill into that space haha.

                You can poke it out with a screwdriver or simply remove the pipe and drill around the edge with a ~6mm drill until the blank falls out.

                The blank in the top of the sink can be moved left to right.

                • SkMed on 19/08/2019 - 14:19

                  @brad1-8tsi: It might not be obvious in the photo but the hole is facing the L bend pipe directly, I don't think it's even possible to get a screwdriver into that space, and if I could I'm doubtful I could get through the plastic with a screwdriver. Even if we did open it somehow The drainage hose from the washing machine would definately have a kink in it if it were connected.

                  I've tried a few times and the pipe won't budge, they need to send in a plumber and I've now asked them to.

            • SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 21:35

              @Stewardo: I just added another photo to show the pipe/nipple more clearly. Its facing the L bend pipe and impossibe to access with a drill or connect a hose to even if it were possible to drill it out. The section of pipe is also glued and unable to be turned around to access it lol. So its impossible to use it and would need to be re-plumbed completely.

              • brad1-8tsi on 19/08/2019 - 10:23
                +2

                @SkMed: Undo the two threaded "nuts" above and below the inlets and twist the pipe to the required angle. They aren't glued in. You aren't a practical type are you.

                • SkMed on 19/08/2019 - 14:11

                  @brad1-8tsi: They feel glues in to me. I'm not sure I'm qualified (or legally allowed to as a tenant) to be replumbing the sink and drilling holes. I've now requested the RE send a plumber to fix it and seal the laundry.

                  • brad1-8tsi on 19/08/2019 - 14:35

                    @SkMed: If you aren't confident then best not to touch.

                    When the plumber comes I'd be asking a few subtle questions about what he thinks of the current installation. make some notes so that you can put forward a case based on industry practice on how it should have been before you moved in.

                    You don't know what you don't know so it's not your responsibility to educate yourself if the current installation meets standard. You assume the job has been done by a qualified tradesman to industry standards if it looks OK.

  • sa-ozzie on 17/08/2019 - 18:37
    +7

    WP Plumbing ?

  • Wait4amate on 17/08/2019 - 19:22
    +11

    Nipple on the side of the s trap is supposed to clamped or friction fit fitting. Really I'd be filthy if i was the landlord, your setup was a bone head move it was always gonna jump out under load of the pump eventually.

    However i am a resi licd builder (in qld) but the bca is australia wide and a wet area ie laundry mjst have a floor waste and a sealed band which is effectively a bund 100mm up the wall junction and generally speaking a puddle flange floor waste. This is incase of a leak slow or catastrophic (like yours) tnis means the water will back up slightly but ultimately drain to floor waste and nit seep through the bottom of the wall into a neighbouring habitabke room.

    In short its your fault in the practical sense that you had provision of a nipple on the s trap to plumb to and i stead you just chucked fhe hose in the sink.

    Your landlord however wpuld lose any civil action or claim against you for undertaking non bca compliant building work, he has tiked and replumbed the laundry without bringing the substrate up to spec.

    A few minor points in ypur favour

    1. Open holes through the cavities at the taps and s trap, this is a vermin & waterlroofing NO
    2. A plumber didnt do that work, the glue splashed everywhere, the fact the nipple is snug on the wrong side of the mini trap u, its amateur hour. Old mate plumbed it himself and in dping so broke the law. Plumbers are a legislated trade.
    3. The type of trap be has used is a very common item and uo to a couple years ago the most common type used australia wide. However they are no longer on the market as they did not meet australian standard
    4. I dont know exactly what hes done there but the trap on a p setup should not be higher than the washing machine nipple. I also doubt its vented on the other side of the wall, anither no no.

    All that wouldl in practice be fine if the handy incapable tenant didnt loosely zippy the hose into the sink.

    But your landlord will be slayed by an insurer or civil tribunal.

    I normally charge 100/hr but consider this my charitable deduction for 2019/20 FY

    • SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 21:00

      Thanks for the feedback/info.

      That nipple is sealed closed with plastic though! If I stick my pinky in there it's totally sealed shut with plastic so clamping the drainage hose to that nipple would just result in it exploding everywhere. The only way is to have the hose in the sink or have a plumber re-plumb it to include a drainage nipple/hose/cap.

      We've had it connected the same way for 2.5 years and we have never had an issue with it and RE never battered an eyelid either :/

      We have always had some buckets and stuff beside the washing machine and the wall the, but we moved them before our holiday. We think that the washing machine has possibly been able to bounce over a little due to the buckets not being there pulling the hose setup off balance very slightly (but not out) causing the water to go behind the sink.

      • Stewardo on 17/08/2019 - 21:18
        +1

        It’s meant to be sealed it’s a sewer pipe. You only drill into it to open it when your about to attach a hose.

        • SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 21:25

          That nipple is directly facing that L-bend pipe, it's impossible to get a drill in there to open it and even if it was open it wouldn't have enough clearance to clamp the washing machine pipe to it due to the way it's been installed. 🤣

        • SkMed on 17/08/2019 - 21:36

          I just added another photo to show the pipe/nipple more clearly. Its facing the L bend pipe and impossible to access with a drill or connect a hose to even if it were possible to drill it out. The section of pipe is also glued and unable to be turned around to access it lol. So its impossible to use it and would need to be re-plumbed completely.

          • Stewardo on 17/08/2019 - 21:44

            @SkMed: If you unscrew it top and bottom it will spin and you can face it away from the trap.
            Put a bucket under it first as it’s full of water.

            • SkMed on 18/08/2019 - 04:33

              @Stewardo: Nope, seems all the sections have been glued into place for some reason 🤔 it needs to be completely re plumbed

              • brad1-8tsi on 19/08/2019 - 10:26
                +2

                @SkMed: it isn't glued. There's an o-ring. You need a suitable sized set of multi-grips.

                • SkMed on 19/08/2019 - 14:09

                  @brad1-8tsi: Yeah I don't have any multigrips, won't budge at all using my hands. It feels like there's some glue on it to me but maybe it's just some grime lol.

                  Either way I've requested they send a plumber to fix it, not sure I'm qualified (or legally allowed) to start up a trade as a plumber and drill into pipes lol.

    • Bushbasha on 18/08/2019 - 17:38
      +2

      @wait4amate, Unless it's changed in the last couple years but I'm pretty sure a laundry doesn't require a floor waste, it's not a requirement unless In an apartment. I had this argument with my builder a few years ago, I wanted one they said it's not needed, I said I still wanted one they said ok but the plumbers neglected to put it in anyway during the build.

      • Wait4amate on 18/08/2019 - 22:56

        Wow I'd like the certifers phone number, sounds like a loose dude letting that go. Tbh technically you are correct if the wet area opens out onto a set down inhabitable room ie: garage with a discharge run off at a height lower than habitable areas that adjoin ie: a garage door at one end house at the other end in a typical 100mm setdown garage then no floor waste is required.

        But i loathe to do it, without a trap vented at floor level you often get rising stench through the s traps, s traps sucking dry, then theres the unseen leaks that would normally pond below a tile bed but eventually leak out of a floor waste with a below bed puddle flange causing damage that takes 20 years to ruin a structure instead of 2.

        Some states do have weird and regiinal practice specific bca inclusions that apply to them, your state may be like that in this instance.

  • Wait4amate on 18/08/2019 - 08:09
    +3

    Apologies for my grammar yesterday…..phone typing

    Asolutely thatd spin if you undid all the threaded collars with multi grips, tneyll be tight.

    The nipple is above the trapped water in the bend which acts as a seal so its okay to be open (for the poster that said its sewer) practically no different to the unplugged sink.

    This is why plumbing is a legislated trade. Plumbers are governed by their own legislation and in most states their own regulator. Most people think its as simple as water goes down hill. It isn't, the devil is in the detail with plumbing. After some thought i feel the landlord or unlicensed plumber is to blame here.

    There are alot of small elements wrong here that meant the plumbing was not fit for use. Australain standards are such that they consider the ability of people who arent capable when these standards are put in place.

    • weezlebub on 19/08/2019 - 09:59

      also, his previous post where he mentioned that he pointed out the drainage situation to his real estate agent, they approved it …

      should have had a layer of water proofing under the tiles, fall / drainage away from wall, lots of things (from a backyard plumber :)

      • SkMed on 19/08/2019 - 14:07

        Yes were surprised the grouting/tiles aren't at least sealed on the floor as the laundry is actually outside and rain can and does get in under the door on windy/wet days (also it's a laundry and gets wet sometimes… As laundries do) so it's likely there was already water damage before this event. 🤷

  • athk on 19/08/2019 - 07:05

    Try posting on Propertychat.com.au as well, there's a mix of renter's and LL on there.

  • JoJoker on 19/08/2019 - 09:50

    First thing I did when I moved in to my current apartment was strongly suggest that a drainage spigot be added to the waste pipe for the basin that the washing machine sits next to. The washing machine can't leak if its piped into PVC with an o-ring clamp on it.

    • SkMed on 19/08/2019 - 14:05

      Yes we've now requested the fix the plumbing.

  • funnysht on 19/08/2019 - 12:28

    I had similar issue and one of the ceilings leaked heavily and the laundry door was found to be waterlogged and couldnt be closed.
    Guess what the inspector said?
    Nah it's not th water that caused it must have been long term water damgage. Then his mate said actually apartment moves and thus causes doors to get stuck. ….right so why arent the other doors stuck? And why the tenants havent conplained before?

    Granted he did fix the other damage

  • john_conner on 19/08/2019 - 13:00
    +1

    As others have said:
    1. You didn’t install the washing machine properly.
    You should have a. plumbed the washing machine waste under the sink (if you wanted to use the barb, you should have consulted the land lord or a plumber to drill it out, not difficult at all - what you consider “impossible” may be possible for someone with more knowledge on the matter).
    Or b. Used the ubend supplied with washing machines which you screw into the wall. This is designed to ensure it doesn’t fly all over the place when under pressure. (The thing in the middle of the picture here: https://www.screwfix.com/p/washing-machine-drain-hose-2-5m-x…)

    The problem you had wouldn’t have occurred if you did the above.

    I’m not sure you can blame the landlord for this, despite the terrible tile and plumbing job.

    If you used the laundry as intended and you got the water damage due to poor tiling etc, that would be a different story.

    • SkMed on 19/08/2019 - 14:04

      We did mention that it wasn't able to be used to the RE when we moved in. I wasn't aware the barb was able to be drilled until this post as I'm not a plumber. Even so, the way it's plumbed the barb isn't able to be accessed and drilled even if I had known that, so the point is kinda mute isn't it?

      Our machine didn't come with one of those, I've always had a dedicated washing machine drain in previous properties. Also again, it's illigal for tenants to to drill into the wall anyway hence why the zip tie solution that worked for over 2 years and was OK'd by the RE.

      The laundry is also located outside and rain gets into the laundry under the door so I figured the laundry was sealed. I'm sure there's likely been water leaking through the grout for years before this anyway.

      All that being said, we've engaged a professional using our renters insurance. They've come with dryers for the carpet. However they've said it's up to the LL to check for internal damage and seal the laundry properly (and plumb it properly) so this doesn't happen again. We've emailed the RE asking them to seal the tiles and holes and plumb the sink correctly too.

  • SkMed on 23/08/2019 - 14:56

    In case anyone is interested in an update:

    We used our rental insurance to send someone out the day we returned. the Insurance company originally said it would be covered and sent someone out with an industrial dryer/de-humidifier. That stayed in the cupboard for from Sat till Wednesday. They said they'd be returning to do more assessments and work later in the week but they returned on wedensday and removed it! Turns out the insurance company was wrong and they dont cover carpets that are "attached" (who has carpets that arent attached I have no idea). They just sent the dryer as a "make safe".

    That lead to a lot of confusion as the contractor originally told us they were removing the dryer because the real estate/LL's insurance company were sending someone instead. We were left scrambling for answers and our property manager also went completely off the radar for 48 hours. This meant things were left wet for an additional 2 days.

    We called the tenants union for advice. They said that while liability with washing machine spillage is usually on the tenant, however due to the circumstances (RE aware we weren't home and didn't follow up, dodgy plumbing, dodgy tilling, dodgy/hidden holes, no issues prior with setup etc.) we'd likely not be found liable if we went to VCAT. So they advised us to just find someone to come back out and claim it as an emergency repair to the RE/LL and possibly offer to pay a percentage to avoid having to go down the VCAT route.

    We got someone out this morning and they pulled the carpet up they determined it was best to remove the section in the cupboard and the skirts were toast. The flooring is concrete so all good there. When they removed the skirts however it became clear that there is a bigger problem with moisture internally in the wall than just this recent incident. There is a lot of rot around the skirting which couldn't have come from this incident alone and has occurred over several years. So either flooding like this has been happening for years by previous tenants, there is a leak in the roof, the pipes in that wall are leaking, or its just gradual rot from the laundry not being sealed and the fact that it shares a door with outside (partially exposed to the elements).

    We've now told the RE we'll pay for the replacement of the skirts, and the small section of underlay and carpet in the cupboard. However they now likely have a very big and expensive problem to deal with. They'll likely have to remove the wall in the cupboard, remove the entire support structure, figure out the real issue, fix it then replace the support structure and patch it back up.

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