Another Health Study: Vegan/Vegetarian versus Carnivore

GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 12:53
Last edited 05/09/2019 - 13:40

Following on from the highly divisive forum: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/479957

BBC is running a report (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-49579820) regarding some an extensive research project, the findings of which has been published in the British Medical Journal, that found:

  • Vegans and vegetarians had 22% lower risk of coronary hear disease (CHD) than meat eaters
  • Pescetarians had 13% lower risk of CHD than meat eaters
  • Vegans and vegetarians had 20% higher risk of stroke
    But, as this was an observational study over decades, there is no cause-and-effect from this research as the typical vegetarian diet today is most likely very different to one from 20 to 30 years ago.

The BBC report has links to other studies:

  • Too much processed and red meat is linked to increased risk of bowel cancer
  • Vegans can become deficient in vitamin B12 and iron, and recently a nutrient called choline (important for brain health).

The recommendation is to eat a balanced diet to ensure that you get all the necessary nutrients. Just like my mother used to say.

Edit - added link to BBC report

Health & Beauty

Comments

  • bobbified on 05/09/2019 - 12:56
    +15

    Tomorrow's "study" will give us conflicting results. They can't even give a definitive answer on whether too many eggs are harmful or not.

    Whatever the result is, I ain't giving up meat! =)

    • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 13:02

      Sure, we all make our decisions.
      And the study supports your view (to a point). It doesn't say you need to give up meat, as long as you also include all the other nutrients that humans need.

      • Maxxjet on 05/09/2019 - 19:02
        +9

        I was told this piece of precious scientific secret by my illiterate grandma 3 decades ago.

      • burningrage on 06/09/2019 - 07:09

        This article comes to mind

        https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-49430857

        • GG57 on 06/09/2019 - 09:11

          Yep, but if the news article removed reference to 'vegan parents', and focused on how they didn't give their child a balanced, nourishing diet, it would be less divisive.
          You would think that, if the parents were truly vegan, they would have understood that all the nutrients are required to stay healthy.

    • IVI on 05/09/2019 - 13:57
      +4

      One result hasn't changed - AFAIK - for some decades:

      • 7th Day Adventists tend to live L-O-N-G-E-R

      (A past girlfriend encouraged me to be more "veggie"
      but could never make anything to my taste, & I have
      little patience chopping, slicing, dicing, "blend'g"
      etc. myself…)

      One of Michael Pollen's rules:

      Don't eat anything your grandma
      wouldn't recognize as food. ;~)

      • GregMonarch on 05/09/2019 - 18:42
        +4

        Meh - SDA as a whole generally don't drink, smoke, take drugs, break the speed limit, sunbath nearly naked, change sexual partners, etc. either. Pity they try and claim it's solely because of how they eat.

      • Ridiculous Panda on 05/09/2019 - 23:01
        +4

        I do not know what the harm of trying food that grandma wouldn’t recognise is? You can either love or hate especially when it is healthy.
        I mean globalisation is a thing you cannot escape for too long.

    • cameldownunder on 06/09/2019 - 13:32
      -1

      My research has shown, that Vegetarians are not fun, and vegan are even worse. Alcoholics are skinny. Pescerian Stink.
      On the other hand, sharing a Spanish Vino with a Wagyu Beef Steak sizzled to Perfection with Tunesian Tabasco, topped of With a Cuban Cigar and French Cognac,
      brings not only great satisfaction, but is what I describe an International experience.
      Not to Forget the Swiss Ice Cream and And the Italian Caffe' ( Affogato ).

      • AlexF on 06/09/2019 - 14:54

        All fun and games until your first stroke. Nothing like laying in a bed full of your own faeces to cast your mind to past choices.

        • ozbjunkie on 07/09/2019 - 00:27
          +3

          No need to have a stroke, decent hangover can get you there.

          • AlexF on 07/09/2019 - 16:24

            @ozbjunkie: Except that disabilities resulting from stroke continue on, and on, and … on, for rest of your life, and, they don’t let up.

            • ozbjunkie on 08/09/2019 - 01:01
              -2

              @AlexF: Strokes sound a lot like vegetarians…

              • AlexF on 09/09/2019 - 09:19

                @ozbjunkie: It’s a mistake to imagine that one can ignore advice, abuse themselves and others, and finally go out in a blaze of glory. After a major catastrophic medical event, people persevere with illness or disabilities for rest of long life.

                • ozbjunkie on 09/09/2019 - 11:48

                  @AlexF: Yeah and many who don't abuse themselves have the same issues. If you look at the odds ratios for many "vices" they are between 1-2 for developing bad outcomes based on certain behaviours. "Doubling your risk of stroke" sounds bad, but you need to consider absolute risk as much if not more than relative risk.

                  If the risk doubles and goes from 1/1000 to 2/1000, yeah I'll trade that for a lifetime of being able to eat bacon.

                  Odds ratio, absolute risk, relative risk. Look it up if you haven't, you might be surprised. So much research on "don't eat this, don't lick that (lol)" is more of a 'cost to society' and epidemiological risk than an individual one.

                  Sure, we don't want an extra 1% of the population to develop a disease, that would be an incredible burden on our healthcare system. But personally, a 1% increase in my likelihood of disease, I don't know if I'd be convinced to stop doing something I vaguely liked, let alone deeply enjoyed.

  • MagicMushroom on 05/09/2019 - 13:10
    +2

    Depends on what "meat eaters" mean.

    Is that what ordinary population eat including highly processed food? A diet that follows the diet guideline like the Australian Dietary Guidelines? or the Mediterranean Diet?

    • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 13:43

      Sorry, just added a link in the post to the BBC report for more info.
      I imagine that "meat eaters" may be similarly difficult to define, given the long period of observations.
      Probably less processed meats in 1993 than later?

  • HighAndDry on 05/09/2019 - 13:18
    +4
    • Vegans and vegetarians had 20% higher risk of stroke

    That's hilarious. Though much as I'd like to point to this as a vegan/vegetarian diet being less healthy, I suspect it's more a correlation due to the fact that people who already present with existing health conditions or risk factors may be more likely to change to a vegan/vegetarian diet.

    • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 13:44
      +2

      Sorry, just added a link in the post to the BBC report for more info.
      The BBC report does quote other sources as stating the research was observational, and thus the apparent results were an association and not necessarily cause-and-effect.

      • HighAndDry on 05/09/2019 - 14:00
        +1

        The vegans and vegetarians had 10 fewer cases of coronary heart disease per 1,000 people compared with the meat-eaters but three more cases of stroke.

        Though completely spit-balling, high blood pressure is a factor in strokes so I'm wondering if the (completely personally anecdotal experience) higher salt content used in vegan/vegetarian dishes is related. (edit: The article itself wonders if there's a link to potential Vit. B12 deficiency) Though apparently even the link between sodium intake and blood pressure is up in the air so who knows.

        And for myself, I'd rather risk a coronory event than a neurological one, just because I'm freaked out by anything which might change who I am as a person, which I view as being rooted in your mind/brain.

        • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 14:28
          +1

          You'd rather risk a coronory event than a neurological one, but what about the increased bowel cancer risk?

          • HighAndDry on 05/09/2019 - 15:47
            +4

            @GG57: Bowel cancer is more a function of low fiber (and so proportionally higher protein/fat) in your diet, isn't it? As opposed to just due to higher absolute protein/fat intake?

            But I don't know. Cancer also scares me, but cancer is like the back-stop for death: If nothing else gets you, cancer will in the end.

            For full disclosure, I already try to moderate my red meat consumption these days. I'll basically only eat it if it's worth it - a good steak, ribs, etc - and avoid junk red meat because to me, that's not worth the added potential health risks.

            • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 15:51
              +2

              @HighAndDry: Yep, that is how it seems to work.
              And then sometimes I think that worrying about it excessively is not going to be helpful either.

    • weezlebub on 05/09/2019 - 14:14
      +6

      See, i would have gone a different direction …

      Vegans / vegeterians are overly empathetic and sympathetic to animals, they care and stress too much about stuff (which is why they become conscientious vegans and vegeterians) … I'd say it's the stress that kills them … or the lack of meat … or the headaches of dealing with their girfriend …

    • BluebirdV on 06/09/2019 - 12:47
      +1

      My Auntie and Uncle are SDA. My Auntie has had a minor stroke before reaching 70. My Uncle had part of his bowel removed in his early 70's. He sleeps a lot and rarely exercises. They are both vegan. My Grandma on the other side of the family was an SDA also but wasn't fanatical about what she ate. My mum said she used to eat canned salmon and rice puddings. She sat in a chair most of her life. She almost made 97! Could just be genes.

    • cameldownunder on 06/09/2019 - 13:35
      -1

      LOL
      All those super - sporty people, riding bikes, and doing cardio vascular exercises, and looking what they eat, just to drop like flies
      While the Gourmands stuffing themselves with all kind of foods, drinks, drugs … and they go on and on and on.
      Just dont go to Maccas or JFK. Quality is what matters ( You know, the white kind of stuff )

  • DarthAntz on 05/09/2019 - 13:31
    +6

    I've grown to not trust these studies. They are done to influence and/or confuse us and they get funding from both meat and farming industries. The fear of cancer/stroke leads to anxiety, and whats a cure for anxiety? A burger, fried food, cigarettes, alcohol, tempura vegetables and bakery snacks (not in that order and not all at once).

    Trust your gut. If the balance of meats, grains and vegetables are causing you any issues with digestion, bloating and discomfort, then your intake is wrong. Over-eating is a contributor to these conditions also. Just be mindful.

    • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 13:50

      The BBC report does suggest that eating a balanced diet is best. In my view, that can allow for occasional splurges.
      I certainly agree with trusting how we feel.

      BTW, the BBC article provides a link to the British Medical Journal publication site. Seems legit to me.

    • HighAndDry on 05/09/2019 - 13:57
      +5

      Trust your gut.

      I don't disagree with your comment, but this part reminded me of a Cobert quote:

      That's where the truth lies, right down here in the gut. Do you know you have more nerve endings in your gut than you have in your head? You can look it up. I know some of you are going to say "I did look it up, and that's not true." That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut. I did. My gut tells me that's how our nervous system works.

      • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 14:01
        +1

        He is actually potentially correct (whether he meant it or not). There is research that even suggests a link between specific gut bacteria and dementia.

        • HighAndDry on 05/09/2019 - 14:01
          +1

          Oh yeah I know - I agree with the comment. It just made me think of a funny quote.

          • hey aj on 05/09/2019 - 14:26
            +1

            @HighAndDry: There is a massive surge in 'gut health' and the complex ecosystem of the human gut that is flooding health information recently.

            How do you feel when you eat something, what is your body telling you from what you have consumed etc.

            • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 14:31

              @hey aj: That focus on gut health could probably be aligned with another increasingly popular choice, to have your DNA analysed and base your diet on those results.

              Maybe we are individually hard-coded to benefit from specific inputs (and be harmed by others), and that is passed on genetically from our ancestors.

              • hey aj on 05/09/2019 - 14:33

                @GG57: I actually hope that this is true, as it would make my life so much easier as a boxer to just stick to the foods my body is designed to consume to min/max my training.

                If DNA testing really does work and can give you a science prooven diet based on your genetics, then that would be the magic pill that myself and everyone else is who is health conscience wants.

            • [Deactivated] on 05/09/2019 - 16:08
              +1

              @hey aj: Gut health is particularly important for people who have been on antibiotics multiple times, which, is most people.

              Want better gut health? Stop taking antibiotics at every opportunity.

              (…but I'm still covering my ass by prescribing prophylactic antibiotics so who am I to knock the status quo…)

    • callum9999 on 05/09/2019 - 20:54
      +3

      I'm sorry to be blunt, but that is mind-numbingly absurd. (The reason I'm being blunt with that "catchy" statement is because this is actually incredibly important and this attitude is exactly why the majority of the planet is so ignorant).

      You shouldn't trust ANY study if you want the truth (especially if you're reading second hand analysis, even more so if it's second hand analysis by a mainstream reporter who doesn't necessarily even understand it). In fact, the scientific method is specifically designed for you not to trust things like this - they must list their methodology so it can be scrutinised by anyone - including you.

      Secondly, I'm hoping the reference to your gut is a joke, because it simply cannot ascertain what is and isn't an optimal diet. It may be able to hint at something being drastically wrong, but it categorically cannot do more - and if you even entertain the idea then you're clueless on the subject.

  • Zedsdeadbabyzedsdead on 05/09/2019 - 13:50
    +3

    I woudn't trust the staff at the BBC to make me a sandwich. The sooner the UK taxpayer stops paying for this garbage the better.

    • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 13:53
      +1

      Ok.
      It seems to be a straight forward report to me, of a British Medical Journal research paper publication.
      The same research has been reported in a few other news services around the world, but it is only a day or so old.

      • [Deactivated] on 05/09/2019 - 16:03
        +1

        I think news outlets trying to "inform" the public about medical and/or research is always subtly inaccurate but in the most critical manner.

        If a reader does not have a basic understanding of the heirarchy of evidence, any evidence submitted for their consumption is subject a comprehension bias, ie. reader will tend to agree with information they can understand vs what is actually factual.

        Furthermore, there journalist tend to omit the importance of the type of research, methodology, limitations…

        I understand that at some level, someone is trying to educate the masses. I just see it as futile. The information is already freely available to those who are interested. We're no longer living in a world where doctors guard their knowledge like an occult secret.

        • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 16:10

          Interesting perception, and it certainly comes down to the news outlets in most cases as to the extracts they choose to highlight.
          In this case, I think the BBC report is factual, and it provides a direct link in the first para or two to the British Medical Journal site. In the abstract at that BMJ site it is stated:
          "Conclusions In this prospective cohort in the UK, fish eaters and vegetarians had lower rates of ischaemic heart disease than meat eaters, although vegetarians had higher rates of haemorrhagic and total stroke."

        • HighAndDry on 06/09/2019 - 12:52
          +3

          I think news outlets trying to "inform" the public about medical and/or research is always subtly inaccurate but in the most critical manner.

          Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect.

          “Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them.

          In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.”

          It's depressingly true. Read any article on which you're an actual expert, and see how badly the journalist buggers up the message.

          • AlexF on 06/09/2019 - 15:16
            +2

            @HighAndDry: Newspapers don’t claim to cater to experts - for that we have academic journals.

            • HighAndDry on 06/09/2019 - 15:27

              @AlexF: It's not who they cater to - it's that they get the overall message wrong in a shocking proportion of cases, but only an expert would know they're wrong.

  • weezlebub on 05/09/2019 - 14:17
    +10

    This is great, I use to be vegan for a year, I was pesceterian for 3 years and I'm currently mostly vegeterian …

    That means I've got a 35% lower risk of CHD!!

    As for the negative vegan stuff, I still eat meat, so it's a win-win, I'm gunna live forever!! except for the excessive smoking and drinking

    • HighAndDry on 05/09/2019 - 15:51
      +2

      That means I've got a 35% lower risk of CHD!!

      Man, I'm not a statistician so I can't say for sure, but…

    • frewer on 05/09/2019 - 18:36

      Same here, we cut back the meat 3 yrs ago. We only have grass fed mince beef from aldi, roast lamb now and then.

      We all die once and paid tax many times… some how. Im more concern about what happened after death …

  • hey aj on 05/09/2019 - 14:20
    +3
    • Vegans can become deficient in vitamin B12 and iron, and recently a nutrient called choline (important for brain health).

    I always thought vegetarians were vegetables but now we have scientific proof to back it up. Thanks, OP.

    /s

    Down the rabbit hole we go!

    • Zedsdeadbabyzedsdead on 05/09/2019 - 14:24
      +4

      I'm having a 440 gram scotch fillet for dinner tonight, nice red wine sauce:)

      • hey aj on 05/09/2019 - 14:27
        +2

        Delicious.

      • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 14:33

        And also on the plate will be…?

        • hey aj on 05/09/2019 - 14:35
          +4

          And also on the plate will be…?

          I don't understand the question. Meat.

          • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 14:39

            @hey aj: My question was to Zeds…
            Surely no-one eats just a steak

            • hey aj on 05/09/2019 - 14:43
              +5

              @GG57:

              Surely no-one eats just a steak

              Of course not, we also have condiments to go on our steaks. A nice red wine sauce will be a fantastic complimentary pairing.

        • Zedsdeadbabyzedsdead on 05/09/2019 - 15:00
          +3

          salt and a steak knife.

  • Some Human on 05/09/2019 - 14:44
    +3

    Vegans also have a 90% chance of being a pretencious ahole.

    • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 14:52
      +7

      But they can probably spell

      • Some Human on 08/09/2019 - 09:25

        I just read the opening post. What is a “coronary hear disease”?

    • hey aj on 05/09/2019 - 14:53
      +5

      And meat-eaters always make it a point to tell everyone.

      • Some Human on 05/09/2019 - 14:59
        -1

        I knew someone would come along and prove my point.

        • hey aj on 05/09/2019 - 15:01
          +9

          Consider your point invalidated as I am a meat-eater!

          Mwahahaha!

          • Some Human on 05/09/2019 - 16:30
            +1

            @hey aj: My bad, I didn’t actually read the above comments until just now.

      • Zedsdeadbabyzedsdead on 05/09/2019 - 15:19
        +1

        Hey aj, I'm buying a quarter of a beast and there are 2 quarters still up for grabs if interested?

    • Zedsdeadbabyzedsdead on 05/09/2019 - 15:02

      100%

    • callum9999 on 05/09/2019 - 20:59
      +1

      Yet, as per usual, the only relevant comments to your argument are unprovoked abuse from someone who eats meat. Funny that!

  • Taro Milk Tea on 05/09/2019 - 15:04

    Ok thanks, steak it is for dinner tonight then.

    • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 15:07

      Steak alone? Or with something else to break the monotony?

      • Taro Milk Tea on 05/09/2019 - 15:10
        +5

        ah gosh, thanks for reminding me. Almost forget to get some fried chicken wings for the side too. Should I pair the wings with ranch sauce or buffalo?

        • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 15:12
          -4

          Your life, your choice.
          Or maybe you have the metabolism that can survive on that type of protein alone.

          • Taro Milk Tea on 05/09/2019 - 15:13
            +3

            @GG57:

            Your life, your choice.

            Do you have to write it like this?!, it's too deep for a simple question like this!

            Or maybe you have the metabolism that can survive on that type of protein alone.

            Again I feel judged…

          • Zedsdeadbabyzedsdead on 05/09/2019 - 15:18
            +1

            @GG57: GG57, perhaps you need a hand with the cooking. Hot pan, splash of oil and turn the steak every 15 seconds. Rest for 5 minutes. Very quick and easy as there is no veg prep needed.

          • HighAndDry on 05/09/2019 - 15:56
            +1

            @GG57: I mean, if the requirement is just to survive, most people can. It's usually a question of how comfortably (or how long) you survive…..

          • idonotknowwhy on 06/09/2019 - 00:31

            @GG57:

            Almost forget to get some fried chicken wings for the side too. Should I pair the wings with ranch sauce or buffalo

            protein alone.

            There's also fat and carbs here, plus whatever's in the sauce.

        • hey aj on 05/09/2019 - 15:12

          I am feeling buffalo tonight.

    • hey aj on 05/09/2019 - 15:11

      How very un-taro of you Taro.

      • Taro Milk Tea on 05/09/2019 - 15:12
        +2

        Don't judge me too early, taro milk tea is the beverage for the dinner.

        • HighAndDry on 05/09/2019 - 15:57
          +2

          Can I judge you for having milk tea with steak? Because I am.

  • DBBROS on 05/09/2019 - 15:19
    +2

    Glad that I am an omnivore

    • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 15:23
      +1

      I'm with you. I eat everything, and I love it.

      • danyool on 06/09/2019 - 18:58

        But that is called cannibalism, my dear children, and is in fact frowned upon in most societies.

        • LFO on 08/09/2019 - 22:56

          Cannibalism is the act of consuming another individual of the same species as food.

          Isn't that meaning a human eating another human?
          That is not omnivore.

          Or was it a joke :0

    • Zedsdeadbabyzedsdead on 05/09/2019 - 15:32
      +1

      My mates girlfriend is a vegan but I've never met herbivore.

      • zoob on 05/09/2019 - 19:09
        +2

        I'm sure you used that one a few days ago on another thread.

      • LFO on 08/09/2019 - 22:57

        My mates girlfriend is a vegan

        Vegan? Dou you mean virgin?

    • hey aj on 05/09/2019 - 15:34

      I'm an omnivore and I'm OK, I eat my vegetables and meat all day.

      He's an omnivore and he's OK, He eats his vegetables and meat all day.

  • Meho2026 on 05/09/2019 - 15:25
    +9

    A lot of this 'evidence' follows on from the China Study book that looked at research over 20 years relating diet to disease.
    There seems to be a huge movement now to adopt a plant based diet but apparently its only a wholefood plant based (WFPB) diet where theres strong evidence that it prevents and reverses disease.
    Vegetarian and vegan diets are not necessarily any healthier than meat diets because they include refined oils, sugars and processed foods, these are considered the poisons that are killing us all.
    There are a growing number of Drs, mainly in USA who are out there claiming to have evidence of reversing heart disease and other western diseases with WFPB diets like Colin Campbell, Michael Greger, Caldwell Esselstyn and John MacDougall probably the most well known.
    It is pretty interesting what they have to say but they all make it very clear that a vegan diet is not the diet that is going to save us and they point out things like a can of coke and hot chips is a vegan compliant meal.

    • GG57 on 05/09/2019 - 15:35

      I'm not aware of the research where WFPB is evidenced as preventing / reversing disease, but we probably don't know what we don't know.

      The research referenced in this post is not claimed to be evidence, and it doesn't support vegan / vegetarian over carnivore, or vice versa. It is purely the observations from a (large) group of diverse participants, over multiple decades.
      If anything, the research is probably too expansive to be definitive, but it does make observations without stating any cause-and-effect findings.

    • HighAndDry on 05/09/2019 - 16:00
      +2

      they point out things like a can of coke and hot chips is a vegan compliant meal.

      Yup.

      Speaking of which, also from the BBC:

      Teenager 'blind' from living off crisps and chips.

      • Taro Milk Tea on 05/09/2019 - 16:11
        -1

        Teenager 'blind' from living off crisps and chips(bbc.com).

        lol media these days will put anything to get some readers. How dare they blame it on the chips??? It's basically because of lack of nutrition and eating disorder.

        Experts are warning about the risks of extreme fussy eating after a teenager developed permanent sight loss after living on a diet of chips and crisps.

        and what is this diet of chips and crisps thing? Is there such a thing?? loll

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