Who's Responsible For Fixing Another Tradesman's Miscalculation

crashloaded on 05/12/2019 - 09:21
Last edited 05/12/2019 - 10:39 by 1 other user

TLDR

  • Doing kitchen reno
  • Electrician measured for new power points after kitchen was removed.
  • New kitchen was fitted and splash back tiles cut to accommodate the new power points as marked out by the electrician.
  • Electrician came back and realised his measurements are wrong and has to break splash back tiles off the wall.
  • Tiler comes back and says 'wtf' and tries to repair the area but all the plasterboard for the splash back is destroyed from trying to get the tiles off the wall, resulting in no plaster to replace the tiles.

It's possible that the only way to fix this is remove a lot of the tiles and fix the plaster. So who pays?

Poll Options expired

  • 78
    Electrician
  • 7
    Main contractor that organized trades
  • 1
    Tiler
Home & Garden

Comments

  • Caped Baldy on 05/12/2019 - 09:32
    +3

    You should get a poll.

    Unfortunately I think the costs will be split and you'll end up getting hit. I'd demand to not pay the labour of the sparky.

    • crashloaded on 05/12/2019 - 09:34

      That's what im afraid of, both trades hitting me with a larger bill for more work. Especially if they blame each other for the miscalculation.

    • Red Rocket on 06/12/2019 - 08:59

      You dont say why the power points were in the wrong place. Was the drawing wrong?

      • crashloaded on 06/12/2019 - 09:08

        No, the whole project has been run off the check measure diagrams. This is the only problems with measurements Ive had with any of the trades.

  • [Deactivated] on 05/12/2019 - 09:35
    +6

    You do because it's practically impossible to establish who did what and what the end result was meant to be.

    Unless you have a contract with your electrician that explicitly outlines the expected outcome, you're going to have to somehow prove that the electrician did not complete his job or caused unnecessary damage in the process.

    Unless you engaged a kitchen builder that will provide you with a turnkey solution, having contractors mess up is part of the risk you take.

    • crashloaded on 05/12/2019 - 09:44

      I don't have a written contract of outcome from the trades but i do have all the check measure diagrams which show the plans. It seems unlikely that if the electrician measured correctly he would need to break tiles off the wall to finish his job. The tiler cut his tiles according to the holes marked by the electrician, which i have photo's of.

      • Switchblade88 on 05/12/2019 - 09:58
        +1

        Photos will be key; the electrician can (rightly or falsely) claim the tiles weren't cut to match the markings so if you can prove the electrician's second holes don't match the markings then you have proof of liability for yourself/main contractor to use.

      • [Deactivated] on 05/12/2019 - 10:31

        It seems unlikely that if the electrician measured correctly he would need to break tiles off the wall to finish his job.

        We both know it is unlikely but that isn't sufficient proof for you to pursue this legally.

        • crashloaded on 05/12/2019 - 10:41

          The same can be said for him to provide sufficient proof if he pursues me legally for not paying his invoice.

          • [Deactivated] on 05/12/2019 - 10:43

            @crashloaded: That's a much easier case to prove.

            • crashloaded on 05/12/2019 - 10:44

              @[Deactivated]: I still get to provide a defence though.

              • [Deactivated] on 05/12/2019 - 10:50
                +1

                @crashloaded: You do, but it will be entirely about the invoice and not the tiles.

                You get to provide a defence and only a defence. Not time to air your grievances.

                You've been stung, so have I. I'm just giving you a heads up on how the trades work and how the law works. Your case is an everyday problem and unfortunately, I already know the outcome.

                Either your electrician will graciously offer to compensate for the damage or they will deny any responsibility and demand full payment for which you have no recourse.

                It's a shitty position to be in and builders find themselves in this position very often. Unlike us, they have the ability to remedy the problem themselves and make life hard for the electrician.

                When we play "builder", we shoulder those responsibilities with no knowledge on how to deal with complications.

                Push the electrician but if nothing happens, cut your losses.

              • HighAndDry on 05/12/2019 - 11:13

                @crashloaded: Tshow is unfortunately right. All the tradie will have to show is that wiring and powerpoints installed and invoice issued. You'll be stuck with the task of proving that the work was contrary to agreement and/or done not to a reasonable standard and/or caused unreasonable damage.

                Tradies side is far more black and white than yours unfortunately.

                • crashloaded on 05/12/2019 - 13:00

                  @HighAndDry: Yeah. That sucks. Lucky I did take photos of all progress and the tiler also took photos of his work each time, maybe he has had this issue before.

  • Switchblade88 on 05/12/2019 - 09:52

    If the electrician laid the cables, and marked the walls, AND is the one breaking tiles off the wall to fix his mistake then he's likely responsible.

    Tiler sends bill to electrician for additional labour, electrician pays out of pocket or claims on his liability insurance. Crashloaded gets reno done late, but doesn't have to make a claim against electrician's insurance for any costs directly.

    Having a primary contractor/builder basically means that they are the ones to arbitrate, but this'll be the process they would use to get a resolution. There's no right position from the problem described that should leave the customer with responsibility for costs.

  • oscargamer on 05/12/2019 - 10:28

    Who is your contract with? Is there a main contractor?

    • crashloaded on 05/12/2019 - 10:38
      +1

      There is a main contractor that organised the tradesmen but they are not sub contracted, we are to pay all trades directly.

      • oscargamer on 05/12/2019 - 10:42

        If they are not subbies, who contracts with them? You directly?

        • crashloaded on 05/12/2019 - 10:46

          Yes they invoice me directly but the project manager / main kitchen contractor basically organised them to do the work, not me.

          • oscargamer on 05/12/2019 - 10:50
            -1

            @crashloaded: WHO CONTRACTS WITH THEM?

            • crashloaded on 05/12/2019 - 10:55
              +1

              @oscargamer: NO NEED TO SHOUT.

              • oscargamer on 05/12/2019 - 10:57

                @crashloaded: Just answer the question. I asked 3 times. Trying to help, but if simple questions are too hard…………..

                EDIT - if your only contract is with the main contractor, and you are paying the trades directly, then you are responsible, because you entered into an agreement whereby you have taken some responsibilty for the trades……Maybe next time, do it properly and you would only have to deal with the main contractor.
                It's weird you use the term 'main contractor' cos that imnlies there are other contractors…..

                • crashloaded on 05/12/2019 - 11:05
                  +1

                  @oscargamer: My response was that I pay them directly, which means that they are contracted to me, is the simple answer that I already stated…………………….

                  Edit: there definitely are more than one contractor.

                  • oscargamer on 05/12/2019 - 11:11

                    @crashloaded: OK. So who tells them what to do/when to do it/sets the scope? You or the MC ?

                  • HighAndDry on 05/12/2019 - 11:17
                    +1

                    @crashloaded: No that doesn't mean it at all. They can be contracted by the head contractor but still invoice you and be paid directly.

                    And either way, that's a technicality. If there's a head contractor involved, involve them in finding a resolution to this first. They'll know the tradies better, know the industry better, and more able to leverage potential reputational consequences for the tradie (consideration for future jobs, image in the industry, etc) which will honestly be more practically useful than anything else.

  • 69 dollar dealz on 05/12/2019 - 10:53
    +1

    The electrician would have got the measurements for the finished kitchen height from someone.

    This would be the main contractor.

    So either the main contractor gave him the wrong deminesions, or the sparky forgot the dimensions.

    Ask each one of them why the screw up occurred. This is the exact reason you have a main contractor employed!

    In any event, find out whose fault it is and ask them to pay the invoice for repairs. If refused, off to NCAT!

  • foolsgold on 05/12/2019 - 12:02

    I'm guessing theres no building involved, or you wouldn't be coordinating this, take it off the electricians bill

    • crashloaded on 05/12/2019 - 12:11

      No, no building, just rip out and replace.

      • foolsgold on 05/12/2019 - 12:19
        -1

        Sorry typo, I meant builder involved. But yeah I would be very assertive with the electrician and just say we had to get the tiler back and his charging me extra because of this, etc.

        If the electrician gives you grief, just with-hold it from the final bill, no paying a final bill isn't an excuse for them not to give you a certificate of compliance either. It's a pretty avoidable mistake that they could have put 1-2 more metres of cable in the wall.

        • [Deactivated] on 05/12/2019 - 13:41
          +1

          Until the final bill is paid, the works belongs to the electrician. They have every right to not just withhold the certificate of compliance, they are entitled to remove the works as they still own all the goods.

          If OP believes he has a case against the electrician, he would have no problem paying first and then seek compensation for damages.

          If he withholds payment due, he will be liable for additional cost of collection.

          • crashloaded on 05/12/2019 - 14:47

            @[Deactivated]: In any case, it's probably worth it to both parties to come to an agreement. Because either way, pursuing through civil tribunal is time consuming and in this case I would probably force the electrician to pursue me, as there will be a compulsory settlement conference before any decision by tribunal.

            • [Deactivated] on 05/12/2019 - 15:31

              @crashloaded: If it is a seasoned electrician, even more so if it is a shoddy electrician, they'd know that their liability extends as far as providing you with the electrical connections as specified.

              Even if you can show the damage down to detailed timeline, it can be easily argued that the tiling was getting in the way of his job.

              The only way the electrician is going to be forced to compensate is if you had a detailed specification of what is going to be there, and the condition of those tiles after the electrician has completed the job. If you did not specify any of that, you're out of luck.

              If you withhold payment, you're going to be out cost of any legal action/collection which will be likely far more than the cost you are pursuing.

              The only upside is, whatever XCAT or court hearing procedure, it will be very short. You will be asked to pay and lodge a complaint if you're unhappy with the electrician's work.

              Good luck with it all. I hope you don't listen to the vigilante-esque advise. You really have no leg to stand on for withholding payment.

              • crashloaded on 05/12/2019 - 16:54

                @[Deactivated]: As mentioned before I do have photos of everything. Hopefully it won't come to any major disagreement anyway.

  • [Deactivated] on 06/12/2019 - 08:25

    Ask the tiler to send you and invoice for a variation, then submit this to your electrician. This is standard in the building world. If he refuses to pay, ask to cash settle what he owes at a percentage say 50% and take the hit. Alternatively you can peruse it, but unless it’s an expensive fix, going further and escalating probably isn’t worth the cost.

    Next time do yourself a favour and pay the extra for a builder to run the job, they will sort out things like this.

    • crashloaded on 06/12/2019 - 09:04

      Yeah sounds like a good option for the bathrooms 😂

      • [Deactivated] on 07/12/2019 - 08:03

        Most builders if they are any good should take on the supervision, they usually won’t due to the oncosts (OHS, variations, etc.). From personal experience it’s fine if you know the trades and trust them to subcontract. From professional experience most sub contractors just want to do their job and leave, they don’t want to deal with others stuff ups.

  • Hoobz on 06/12/2019 - 09:51

    If, and it's a big if, OP is correct in it being the electrician's mistake - > Sparky should man-up and pay up.

  • OzHunterNSW on 06/12/2019 - 11:02

    Obviously it is the electrician's fault from the start and they admit their mis-calculation… along with all its ramifications.

  • HeWhoKnows on 06/12/2019 - 14:37

    Firstly thank you to OP for a nice concise summary of the sitiuation without the "he said, I said, they said" rubbish that comes out in other posts.

    Secondly the situation is complicated.
    If a builder was overseeing this project and employing both the tradesmen then its the builders problem.

    If OP is managing the project it becomes rather complicated.

    I would say the electrician is at fault but whether he can be made liable for the repair costs? I dont know. OP would need to work something out with both tradesmen.

    The electrician is not responsible for the way the tiling and plasterboard work was done.
    In other words its partly the method that contributed to the fact the remedy is so big.

    Like I said its rather complicated.

    Why cant the electrician just go ahead with what was measured out?

    • crashloaded on 06/12/2019 - 15:57

      Yeah it's complicated. There is a main contractor who organised all these trades to come, but I pay them directly. Maybe involving the main contractor as a mediator is the best option, as I don't know these guys and I don't know the industry. They are obviously continually doing work for the main contractor.

      The electrician couldn't go ahead with what was already marked because was not level with the rest of the points in the kitchen, it seems he mounted the brackets at the incorrect height.

      It was also his choice to rip tiles off the wall without consulting the tiler or main contractor.

  • kiitos on 06/12/2019 - 20:02

    What's the main contractors involvement? Is he the kitchen builder?

    • crashloaded on 06/12/2019 - 20:43

      Builder and installer.

  • Spending2Much on 07/12/2019 - 15:33

    So called 'tradies'…. I've seen so many dodgy and amateur tradies, with arrogance and self righteousness, at times I'm embarassed to wear hi viz and be in the same game.
    I feel for you. And certainly don't envy you.
    Alot of sub par tradies prey on the fact most people don't know, or can't do.
    Unfortunately, all the good and professional ones get tainted with the same brush as the cowboys.

  • Meowcat on 14/12/2019 - 20:54

    Bet the cutouts were in prohibited locations.

    Did he at least write "patch pls" with a smiley face?

    • crashloaded on 15/12/2019 - 12:20

      Actually the power outlet where they had the issue was already existing and just being replaced with a new one. So who knows.

      • Meowcat on 15/12/2019 - 13:37

        Hard to tell without knowing the location of sink / hotplates etc. A few complex exclusion zones and maximum distances for isolation switches.

        Anyway seems pretty weird mounting brackets in a kitchen,and not coming back and doing cutouts when the plaster is on before the tiler / splashback installer comes. Can save alot of heartache later.

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