Why is the firefighting industry mainly full of volunteers? I believe almost every other emergency services (police, ambulance etc) are fully paid professions. Is it because there isnt enough demand for full time firefighters, and therefore they are just required on an as needed basis. Eg: police and ambulances are required almost constantly all day every day, whereas firefighters (fortunately) are not. Theres obviously a high focus on them in the media right now as they are doing a very tough gig, voluntarily. Some people are saying they should be paid, however others are saying this will detract from the spirit and drive which motivates someone to do such a risky job, for free. Or is the media blowing this out of proportion?
Why Are Firefighters Volunteers?
DiscoJango on 30/12/2019 - 10:26
Comments
Well obviously, you can’t have BBQ Chips if there is a Total Fire Ban…
You can use a gas or electric bbq.
You can if Gladys says so..
Sydney is going ahead with the NYE fireworks, so it's just a partial fire ban
It's not a partial fire ban, they just have an exception
@iRoik: ^ Exactly right, the have an exception after discussing it with the fire service and being allowed to proceed. They use a professional company with high standards and have a plan in place to minimise any risks.
They also paid the $6.5M (so that money is gone regardless) and it generates $130M in Sydney's local economy, as well as bringing some much needed enjoyment (or distraction) to people currently suffering across the state.
Has anyone spotted the Peking Duck flavour around?
No, you can't have those either, please!
The Reject Shop
I'm cooking mine over some fireworks, so it's all good.
You sir have excellent taste.
Ewwww salt and vinegar ftw
Cause people are willing to volunteer.
It's a media issue at the moment due to the severity and longevity of these fires.Same reason we don't pay blood donors in this country.
It's banned for safety reasons.
No. Its because supply meets demand
You can be damn sure that if the current market was grossly unable to meet demand, that they would find a way to mitigate the safety issues.
@outlander: We don't pay for blood for the same reason we don't pay for human milk or semen. It's illegal to sell human products in Australia.
Because its "more police on the beat" every time from the liberals.
And we lap it up.
So there's no cash for any other services. Especially after the millions spent on assault rifles for them.@whooah1979: How can you not know this? They just bought AR15s. Go to America if you want to argue if AR15s are assault rifles or not.
@deme: Glock 22s are standard issued.
https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/recruitment/the_training/assoc…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales_Police_Force#F…@whooah1979: NSW have Colt M4 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-18/nsw-police-with-new-c…
And VIC and WA are getting AR-15 go google that yourself
@deme: The NSW police doesn’t walk around the streets with rifles even if they were to purchase them. These type of firearms are reserved for the PORS. We’ll never see them unless some Joe thinks he’s a hero.
@whooah1979: TheCutter
So there's no cash for any other services. Especially after the millions spent on assault rifles for them.
@TheCutter: We can hardly call Glock 22s assault rifles.
@deme: 'Victoria Police may soon have 600 semi-automatic rifles along the lines of either the AR-15 (preferred weapon for massacres) or the M4 (preferred assault weapon of the US armed forces). Both could take out your eye from a few hundred metres. The cost of the rifles may take out $25 million from state coffers…..In this Victoria is falling into line with NSW and Western Australia' the age
Because in cases like we are seeing currently people are forgoing wages and holiday pay while their bills keep coming in in order to stop our homes from burning down. :)
People should be paid for going above and beyond.Major bushfires come in cycles. We should do more to prevent fires during the off season than trying to stop them. Reduce one of the elements of the fire triangle and reduce the risk of fires starting in the first place.
Except these fires have beaten the previous record holder for largest fire in Australia by a million hectares already, and the previous record holder was in 1851, 169 years ago, it was fought with horse and carriage, without access to modern roads, communications, or other technology and infrastructure that is now CRUCIAL to fighting fires, on top of that, at the time there were a greater amount of forested areas to actually burn, we have every possible advantage over them and the fires are still, monstrously larger.
Bushfires in Australia have changed forever, the cycle has been altered.
It's not just a matter of national safety, it's a matter of national security, clearly our nation would be rendered helpless in the event of incendiary attack, I only bring that up because I feel like that realisation is the ONLY way to get the government to treat these issues with the respect they deserve.
clearly our nation would be rendered helpless in the event of incendiary attack
???
Where do most Australian's live?
Where are the bush fires?
We have lost 17 people and
these fires have beaten the previous record holder for largest fire in Australia by a million hectares already
Come on.
@This Guy: Along the coast? Point?
Plenty of coastal towns have needed evacuation, utilizing our navy vessels and military to get people out, once this is all over important infrastructure, homes, buisnesses, sources of food and sources of water will be depleted.
That's being rendered helpless.
@Leafshade: The fires are mostly forest. Tourism is being affected. There might be short term shortages with timber, but we have massive reserves.
We are a surplus supplier of food. There is no issue there. We might be short on locally grown apples for a few years, but that is only one fruit.
Water supply is affected by the lack of rain. It is not being depleted by these fires.
I am not seeing any issues with work in the affected regions.
Land prices will go down, but they will quickly be picked up by those who realise the last great fire was in '65.
Mallacoota is lovely, but it is in no way nationally significant.
Significant infrastructure has held up greatly in my region.
We are not helpless. We are prepared. Our buildings are only going to be built to higher standards after this season. We are the one nation on earth that, continent wide, builds to withstand fire. And we are currently burning most of the forests surrounding capital cities.
We are stupidly resistant to incendiary attack.
We have a low population and a tiny navy. Invasion is the main risk.
@Leafshade: Good point about incendiary attack, but in reality it would seem you could do the same with a few hundred foreign controlled arsonists in a coordinated simultaneous attack (or even a prolonged more stealthy attack over a period of a few weeks). It could already be underway now for all we know.
@Gravy: True, but the point wasn't even about total damage/efficiency, but ease of enactment.
A stealth craft could even use something like an extremely high powered laser to ignite leaf litter the same way smaller commercial lasers can burn wood or paper, without even having to physically drop/do anything, also leaving behind no evidence.
Unpopular opinion but if I was a volunteer now I would walk away. If The current govnt priorities are on giving away tax breaks to the wealthy and subsiding foreign owned mining companies rather that trying to help volunteers put food on the table and pay their rent/mortgages then it’s basically spitting in your face.
Not to mention the hundreds of millions given to Indonesia each year (who is on track to the be the world's 5th largest economy), the 8 BILLION they gave to bail out failed EUROPEAN banks after the start of the GFC, the billions they are spending on submarines and retrofitting those submarines to appease the greens in government, the BILLIONS spent on planes that don't fly and even more spent on joining Amerika and its wars in the middle east. I could go on for a very long time about the ways in which govcorp wastes our tax money but hopefully you get the point. They have plenty of money for their own BS and nothing when it comes to advancing Australia and looking after its citizens.
@EightImmortals: You’re right. What we need is somebody like Donald Trump to build walls, implement tariffs, deport non-citizens, withdraw us from trade and humanitarian agreements, etc.
@EightImmortals: Thinking, thinking, thinking. No, sorry. I can’t think of a single Australian politician or party that have the stones to do what Donald Trump is doing.
@whooah1979: Well there was one but the media slandered him as every kind of *-ist under the sun (racist, sexist, etc etc).
He pushed for huge water infrastructure projects which would help in this situation. Our country has been (deliberately) dried out.
He was even pushing for a government (people's) controlled central bank… no wonder he was character assassinated.
@MementoMori: Nah, what that guy is really on about is guaranteeing a good income for his chosen people at the detriment of everyone else. Basically,his philosophy is some people are more equal that others.
He only wants a government bank so it will be forced to lend taxpayer funds to people that wont ever pay it back. Because they are special.I always love this line from an interview on Lateline in the early nineties
“The wool growers in my electorate are the engine drivers of the economy. They just never make any money!”
They of course switched to beef cattle and live on multi million dollar properties.
Katter is an out and proud agrarian socialist keen to splash around Other Peoples’ Money. And of course, he makes all these grandiose visions as an independent, safe in the knowledge he will never, ever, have to deliver on any of it. He is the worst kind of politician.
@entropysbane: Katter a socialist? He was a National, you know the L in LNP, the Nats in the coalition, he was even a minster in Bjelkie Petersens state government from 74-89 before he was a National in a Fed seat. Hes vocally supportive of Fraser Anning.
Hes anything but socialist.
@Tuba: I am quite familiar with Bob Katter jnr. Incdently the only time he was at threat of losing his seat (2013) he was rescued by the ALP and Palmer Party preferences. The LNP candidate got 48% of the primary vote and Katter 27%. All Clive palmers and the ALp references wen to Katter. And his biggest booths are aboriginal communities like Doomadgee, because they like him from when he was the aboriginal affairs minister in the Joh years. With no good LNP candidate in recent years, and the ALP irrelevant because its inner city targeted policies of recent years renders them toxic in the bush, Katter is cruising at 65% first preferences, because he sticks it up em in Canberra.
Yes he is a socialist. An agrarian socialist. He wants to use the power of government to achieve collective aims, including guaranteed prices for commodities, maximum prices for inputs, special tax and permit treatment for rural businesses and residents, government loans at almost no interest that in extremis won’t get foreclosed on (eg other people pay for them)The collective he is particularly in favour of supporting is rural people.
Anning is the same. Both advocate using government to transfer money from one lot of people to another. From each according to their ability, to each according their needs.
It is ironic that he is labelled right wing. if there is one thing the left really hate, it’s splitters. So he hates social democrats and marxists, and they hate him and call him a right winger. The only difference in their actual economic policies is who gets the loot.
You’re right. What we need is somebody like Donald Trump to build walls, implement tariffs, deport non-citizens, withdraw us from trade and humanitarian agreements, etc.
If you craft it carefully, you can fashion an edgy comment which appeals to both political tribes of OzBargain — straight to one and sarcasm to the other.
Bravo!
@Scrooge McDuck: Yeah, I gave it a thumbs up because I thought it was sarcasm but @EightImmortals is totally up for it.
@whooah1979: Neg me all you want SJWs, but at least Trump try to follow through with his promises (no matter how silly they were). Prefer that over blatant lying and cheating politicians we have been having in the past decade! Promised A and delivered B (in a half arsed fashion too sometimes!)
For the record, I want Andrew Yang to win in 2020 (just loving those free $$$ idea :P).
@WillKillfor5Cents: The United States isn’t ready for an Asian president. They’ll stick with the good old middle-aged white billionaire or millionaire male.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/12/31/we-may-ha…
https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/editorial/opinion--who-…@WillKillfor5Cents: He's on record as having told what, 12,000 lies so far? (No I'm not exaggerating)
He follows through with hardly anything. At least have the guts to admit you just idolise his racism/sexism/xenophobia etc. instead of pretending you care about "honesty".
@callum9999: Trump initially had more women in his cabinet than 3 of the last presidents did, and the Black unemployment rate is currently at an all time low under his presidency. Don't believe everything you hear on ABC. Most of the racism he's been accused of has come from enforcing immigration laws which were already put in place by Obama.
It's human nature to blame the current government when things go wrong, yet quietly ignore all the benefits you reap when things go right.
The media is playing on the emotions of impoverished people to help attack Scomo. It's despicable tbh. He didn't start the fires and these people would be in the exact same situation regardless of who was elected last year.
Why dont you pay. Pay should be voluntary too. Nobody stopping you from paying the firefighters out of your own pocket. You shouldnt be peer pressuring others on how they spend their money
I would argue that you should only pay people for the things they are willing to do for free. It makes them evolutionary fitter, and in a million years we will have a race full of people who love work so much they'd do it even if they weren't being paid.
We already have that, it's called the dole, doesn't quite pan out the way you think.
That makes absolutely no sense.
in a million years we'll all be brains in a vat while robots do everything in the real world. Meanwhile you get to have orgies all day in your matrix.
Firefighters, as in those who work in towns and cities, are not volunteers.
Volunteers are only in the Rural Fire ServiceVolunteers are only in the Rural
Which also happens to be the areas most affected by bushfires.
Which also happens to be seasonal.
It doesn't make sense to maintain a full-time paid fire service for something that tends to only happen in the summer.Summer starts in August now?
@wiipantz: I assume you meant to write 'at it' and 'then'.
I have no idea the point you are trying to make but sure, go right ahead.
@Almost Banned: They also TEND to have jobs, families and home loans. Cant work when you spend days let alone weeks and months fighting fires.
A lifesaver doesnt spend weeks or months saving a life. Bondi Rescue seems to indicate some are paid and yet some still volunteer.
Paying fire fighters wont alter the landscape of volunteering at the school tuck shop or footy club.St Johns volunteers man most if not all ambulances in WA, while in other states Ambos are paid, and yet at least in some states St Johns are volunteers alongside them. Apparently payment and volunteering can coexist within a field, let alone across fields of endeavor.
As with your flawed lifesaver and Ambo examples, many firefighters are paid, and that didnt stop this discussion.
It doesn't make sense to maintain a full-time paid fire service for something that tends to only happen in the summer.
What about special force police and military personnel? They are not even seasonal - they are kept on a generous full-time salary just to train and be prepared for a potential war which will probably never even happen in their lifetime.
I once knew someone in the tactical response unit of the police force who said he only got to go on one actual, live mission in a calendar year. The rest of the time was spent training or occasionally doing other supplementary work because real threats never came.
@SlavOz: What about surf lifesavers, SES and St John's volunteers?
Should they all be paid and kept on permanent stand-by?
Volunteers are great and important for our society - but making them all paid employees destroys the very nature of volunteering.@Almost Banned: No - it's a number's game. Lifeguards and other basic volunteers would not be saving hundreds of lives and family homes in the space of a few months. They are also not really putting themselves in extreme danger.
I see what you're saying but comparing lifeguards to firemen is senseless. Lifeguard volunteers are in plentiful supply due to the nature of the work (out on the beach all day, surrounded by attractive people with a beautiful view of scenic coastlines). Many of them even have to line up and hope to get picked due to the high demand of people who want to do it.
Sydney has caused international headlines over a little diluted smoke running through our city. Imagine being at the very source of that on a 45 degree day, risking your life in remote and desolate areas.
@SlavOz: Your numbers need some work SlavOz.
Drownings account for nearly 300 deaths per year. OTOH deaths in bushfires average fewer than 8 per year.
Now, which is more deserving of pay based on death toll?@Almost Banned: Drownings occur in isolation and often at private or public pools. Plus, people can often mitigate the risks themselves (don't swim).
Without ample firefighters, fires can rip through entire forests and towns, destroying millions of dollars in homes and doing irreversible damage to the ecosystem.
I know which is more important.
@Almost Banned: Not the same thing. Some people are born and raised in rural areas and it's all they know, or they may not be able to afford to move anywhere else. You can't compare living somewhere to a leisure activity.
Besides, even if these areas were empty, the fires would still need to be put out.
@Almost Banned: I'm rather bemused that so many of you don't seem to realise it's possible to employ people seasonally.
But no, I see no moral reason why lifeguards, SES and paramedics shouldn't be paid for their time. Nor could I care less whether it "destroys the nature of volunteering" - why exactly would that be a bad thing?
@callum9999: Of course people can be employed seasonally - farmers depend on it.
But if no-one does anything without being paid our entire society changes, and not for the better.
Help out at the local school tuck=shop - sure, if you pay me.
Help coach the under 9s footy team - here's my bank account details.
Also employment comes with numerous statutory duties and costs that volunteering doesn't. All those community groups now have to deal with PAYG withholding and Superannuation issues.
You really think that wouldn't be a bad thing?@Almost Banned: In that case, I insist you walk into your boss' office and demand that you start volunteering a shift or two per week. We need to cherish volunteerism.
Your suggestion that people will refuse to help with the school tuck shop because firefighters are getting paid for risking their lives, and saving the lives of other people, at ENORMOUS emotional and physical cost is beyond absurd.
Also, there are many paid employees within RFS. They are already perfectly capable of handling payroll and superannuation payments. Why on Earth do you think they'd struggle?
@Almost Banned: I have no idea whether you volunteer or not, and didn't say you don't.
I have been assuming that you don't volunteer to work for your actual job for free though. If you do I take it back - your argument wouldn't be hypocritical and I apologise. I strongly suspect you don't however, as that would be pretty weird.
@Emerald Owl: More like we're helping in someone else's war, likely perpetuated for profit. We have miles of treacherous oceans and (should) have tight border control to keep the baddies out. We don't need to go killing them halfway accross the world to keep our country safe. But, I digress.
@SlavOz: Mate we let the English in, I mean they calculate their gross domestic product on cocaine use - the English are seriously bad these days… check the knife crime stats as another example
@petry: The difference in criminality between Australia and England is insignificant.
It's also cute that you seem to think the UK has a bigger drug problem than Australia!
@callum9999: What are you talking about?
Are you saying that Australian gross domestic product includes cocaine as well?
And are you saying that the rise in Australian knife crime mirrors Englands?
@Emerald Owl: It's not our fight. These regions have been plagued by violence for centuries, mainly due to the ingrained ideologies that reign there. We can fix these countries but how long until they raise a new generation of extremists to break it again? It never ends, especially since so many Western nations promote it by being allies with Saudi Arabia - who are basically the control centre for all the violence and extremism.
We're in these wars for the money and power. I don't think it's a good use of our taxpayer dollars. Much rather give it to the firemen who do honest work that actually makes a difference to Australian lives.
@SlavOz: … if WW1 was to happen now, there would be no ANZACs with that attitude. ANZACs regretted war, they did not regret going.
Arabs (generalised) are where Christians were 300 years ago (some still today). They will catch up too, science is slow to take.
We used to burn witches.
And the Country Fire Authority
And in SA, the CFS
When does a place become a town? Because most of the places I have lived the firies were all vollies, come to think of it ambos as well.
I believe almost every other emergency services (police, ambulance etc) are fully paid
Fire and Rescue NSW and most ‘regular’ firefighting units in other states are fully paid public servants. Many St Johns ambulance paramedics are also volunteers.
If you are referring to RFS/CFA volunteers; they may only be called up 2 - 3 weeks a year. I’m also certain many don’t want to be paid - they would rather do it as community service rather than in exchange for a paycheck
Unfortunately, the fire season has been so extended that what was previously an occasional call out for the CFS units has become extended battles with bush fires, clean up of hot spots and preventative back burns over weeks. It is now impacting on the fire fighters employment, hence the calls to reimburse volunteers for their time.
Because of the extent of the fires and the time spent fighting them, some communities have resorted to crowd funding for basic supplies for their units. It's time the federal government/PM accepted the scale of these fires represents a national emergency and fund the CFS units appropriately. Perhaps a carbon/coal tax could be used for this purpose.
Grabs large original smith's chips