Why is the firefighting industry mainly full of volunteers? I believe almost every other emergency services (police, ambulance etc) are fully paid professions. Is it because there isnt enough demand for full time firefighters, and therefore they are just required on an as needed basis. Eg: police and ambulances are required almost constantly all day every day, whereas firefighters (fortunately) are not. Theres obviously a high focus on them in the media right now as they are doing a very tough gig, voluntarily. Some people are saying they should be paid, however others are saying this will detract from the spirit and drive which motivates someone to do such a risky job, for free. Or is the media blowing this out of proportion?
Why Are Firefighters Volunteers?
DiscoJango on 30/12/2019 - 10:26
Comments
@Slippery Fish: We are all going to pay.
" 10% of their over indulged paychecks" won't cover a tiny fraction of what we are up for due to these fires.@DashCam AKA Rolts: This is how our gov is, if I had $2.99 left and needed $3 to feed my family the gov would be like "Oh hey you have $2.99, we need 4 cents so here's a tax" and I can't feed my family and they dont care. As long as they get their 30000 a week
And yes I'm not saying we won't. I'm saying I don't need to pay to every single other step in the process plus more tax.
@Slippery Fish: Actually you'd have to have over $18,200 income per year before paying any income tax.
Most basic foods, some education courses, some medical service are GST free as well.
The entire welfare of this country is 19ish %
I'm more than happy to pay additional tax if needed to cover fire fighting and prevention.
@deme: mate the submarines will save you - 230 - 250 billion - deal brokered by scummo's mate.
you will have to pay more taxes because we are spent up defending Donald
@petry: I don't know what your argument is, I'm in support in paying taxes. I'm in support of paying for welfare. We pay less than Mexico as a % of tax.
I'm not in support of paying for shit subs. I don't know much about that deal perhaps there is geopolitics for it but you won't see me defend it.
What’s wrong with crowfunding? Should the community be pitching in and helping because it is the right thing to do rather than relying on government to tax people?
Yes, more taxes.
Didnt know some ambo's were volunteers, interesting. I wonder what other services volunteer work extends to, eg: police/swat teams. i dont think ive ever heard of a volunteer police officer.
Volunteers assist the police with community programs as part of community engagement and crime reduction.
https://www.bluelightsa.com.au/introduction/
State Emergency Service (SES) in each state
There’s the community watch
Simple solution, offer it to all, only those who need it have to accept.
I've seen so many videos of volunteers talking about how they've had to take out loans to buy food and pay bills, it's absurd, the people who need it getting it are more important than the people who don't want it not getting it.
Not only that, but also RFS & SES members have lost their properties while defending/protecting other peoples properties during Fires & Floods.
Maybe we should make a draft for every able bodied person of legal age to be a RFS member if they live in remote bushfire prone areas. Could get the numbers up.
No..
Is this real
@xoom: Wouldnt be surprised if someone said a firehose wasnt gender neutral enough because it looks too much… like a male part.
things get too hard at uni.
These snowflakes getting an arse whooping when they get into the real world if they think uni is tough.
Ok Boomer
@HumbleCat: Lol. Didn't neg you. Im nowhere near being considered a boomer. Not even close.
Im more closer to gen Y or millenial age range.
@HumbleCat: What a lame reply. Did you have to think long and hard before coming up with that killer retort?
Probably because the generation their parents belong to were so bad at parenting.
Dont forget that parents cant really "parent" as they wish due to the state. eg: a school teacher can call child protective services if they think a parent has been yelling/scolding/hitting with a wooden spoon their child.
@DiscoJango: “Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”
― G. Michael Hopf
@WillKillfor5Cents: So its literally a never ending cycle lol
The current latte drinking hipsters will give birth to… vikings?
You forget, the current generation need safety rooms when things get too hard at uni.
Only if you pamper to them. We need to go back to the old school way of teaching kids that words cant hurt you and the world doesn't owe you anything, unfortunately we have the Greens and their left-wing loonies to contend with.
Yeah, not how they work. They are a room with facilities to help people with a specific community.
Most are just a room with a couch, and posters offering support for common issues in that culture.
For example parent rooms often have change tables, breastfeeding seats and posters tackling depression.
Queer spaces often have couches, condom pots and posters tackling depression.
Swinger spaces usually have swings, key pots and posters tackling depression.
The last thing any member of the RFS wants is to baby sit members of the general public who likely have no idea and don't want to be there. They would be a liability in a dangerous work place…
In my local RFS shed we all know and trust each other.
And no, I won't be applying for a payment for work I give as a volunteer but I fully understand any member that does. I know of members that worked every day for six weeks.
This is exactly it.
The ones who need financial support NEED to get it.
Some, like yourself do not need it, and do not need to take it, but you not wanting/needing it shouldn't prevent those who do from getting it.
Wish more people saw it from the same point of view as you, keep it up.
In the small communities, every able body is either directly fighting fires or supporting the community in some other way (such as feeding people, accommodating people, looking after children and/or animals, evacuation centres) or working at their jobs which the community need (if it is safe.
We are starting to see a trend of larger places where young people are buying/building and they have come from the city where they cannot afford to buy. The concept of community and volunteering isn’t ingrained into their mindset. However fine if these areas should be large enough to warrant some paid firefighters with volunteer supports where needed. I am surprised at some big places with volunteers only.
Or just pay them
The draft is massively ineffective and doesn't save money or provide greater results, this has been shown time and time again, it's one of the lest effective methods of bolstering the military, it would be equally ineffective at bolstering the RFS.
NSW also has retained firies who get paid an allowance to be on call.
Australians don't want to pay for anything that isn't from Europe. If we imported firefighters from Europe we'll be paying for them and Gerry Harvey would want 10% GST charged and remitted to the ATO.
Most likely reason is as above where there isn't the density needed for full time manned fire fighting force. Unfortunately when people have gotten stuff so long for free they expect it to be kept free. Bit like no carbon tax therefore people don't like another tax but we'll have to pay for a full time fire fighting force as a tax.
But we don't like GM Holden and Ford. We like BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Porsches.
Australia has net foreign account deficit (means we constantly import more than we export). I think we're just getting lent money on perceived good credit risk. In fact our big banks source 25% of funding from overseas therefore that implies that 20% of the money the bank lent you is borrowed off someone overseas to buy land based here. Stupid as it sounds it is true
The ford ranger was the 2nd biggest seller in 2018.
But the issue is how much government money goes to American companies, and how little tax American companies pay here. Add why America can buy whatever it wants in Australia and why the Australian government shares every Australians information with America in real time as examples of why Australia is now just a servant of the US.
We have no privacy, secret courts, few if any Australia first policies, and live in a country that was known to be decimated by climate change. Well the opening acts arrived, and there's much more to come.
@petry: Maybe second biggest selling model but towel Ford volume isn't that high by volume or value.
As for servants to America you can ask the white majority in Canberra.
As for climate change. People are still buying million dollar property on the waterfront like it ain't happening.
@netjock: well Australia doesn't ask many questions about where money comes from, and being in front of the water means your first to swim out when the firestorm arrives..
its funny since a majority of voters returned our America first pollies why so many are now in denial.. no-one cared about climate change then and nothings changed as shown by our denial of serious climate changes.
@petry: Maybe voting for America First is like "wish cycling" (when nappies and non recyclable plastics end up in the recycling load).
People have a good tendency to shoot themselves in the foot using a gun with a good silencer.
For entertainment but Andrew Yang who is one of the US democratic candidates for 2020 has some interesting ideas
I still can't believe politicians is a legitimate profession given gaffes it is almost amateur.
@netjock: No difference between the 2 parties in America, just like here. The winning party does nothing to reverse the abuses, cannot bring the dead - and trump already has the blood of hundreds of thousands of women and children on his hands.
That what people really mean - when they say he gets things done.
@petry: Think we came to an agreement.
We both don't understand why people would vote for politicians who obviously get nothing done and just fiddle around at the edges and pretending it is great progressive giving tax cuts that amounts to a small coffee every fortnight (that is if you don't spend it all on negative gearing literally buying the banks a coffee every fortnight).
Ideally i would ultimately not like to need firefighters at this time of the year, surely measures could be taken so that things dont get this out of hand next year.
Reduce one of the elements of the fire triangle.
We're working on that!
With deforestation and climate change, we should be looking at reduced oxygen levels in the future.
Baby steps!
surely measures could be taken so that things dont get this out of hand next year.
Seriously? So like we should have ordered more rain from eBay? We tend to get a big fire season every now and then, it is cyclical. It is a combination of factors, dry from drought, lightning strikes, limited backburning opportunity so more fuel on the ground. If everything burns this season (and, no I don’t literally mean everything) it is going to take quite a while to build up the fuel again fro the next serious fire season. We’ll need a few good years of growth, meaning we need lots of rain For a while. Then we’ll need a decent drought to make it all ready to burn again.
The RFS don’t go around ignoring the bush unfit catches on fire. They monitor fuel loads and back burn when possible to reduce fuel loads. But they don’t just go and set fire to massive areas of wilderness bush land to stop a fire getting into it, they burn areas surrounding properties to prevent loss of property. They also maintain fire breaks And containment lines where possible.
Yes seriously. By measures i meant putting strategies in place to ensure the impact is lessened, eg: reducing "fuel" for the fire, more back burning. I have read some articles, seen some fb posts from rural farmers where, because of council laws, they were not allowed to reduce vegetation, which just increases the fuel for the fires.
Farmers and land clearing … sometimes fire management is just an excuse to clear vast tracts of native vegetation for financial gain, damaging waterways, loss of topsoil, and exacerbating drought. It does have a valid place, but management and misuse are huge problems.
@BigBirdy: Residents should be allowed to do what is necessary to protect their properties.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-27/bushfire-history-aust…
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-22/queensland-bushfire-c…
The damage bill from bushfires burning through Queensland and northern New South Wales has hit $145 million.https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50862349
Insurers have received claims worth A$240m (£126m ; $165m) since October, and they expect the number will grow significantly.
Medical bills from the fires and smoke haze could also run into the hundreds of millions.
And one analysis suggests disruptions caused by the fire and smoke haze could cost Sydney as much as A$50m a day.@whooah1979: Sure, but what is necessary to protect their properties and not just line their pockets should be up to unbiased experts, not themselves.
@Leafshade: Who are these so-called unbiased experts? Are they residents that may lose everything in a bushfire or are they academics living in the big cities?
They haven’t been able to do a lot of back burning this season because it has been too dry. Adding to that this drought is unprecedented, which means that we haven’t done extra back burning in previous years because they thought they could do it this year, like normal.
Back burning needs to be safe. Can’t do it when it isn’t safe otherwise it becomes a bushfire.
@Euphemistic: Not sure why you were downvoted. Backburning opportunities were scarce in the lead up to summer due to unfavourable conditions, as you said it can only happen when it is safe to do so.
The major blaze near Moruya started because some idiot farmer took measures in to his own hands and decided to back burn his property, now three people are dead and he has been charged.
@Euphemistic: Significant back burning had been done near Glen Innes, and still there was a bushfire in Sep 2019 and that was followed with another bush fire burning same ground in Nov 2019 according to locals.
https://www.gleninnesexaminer.com.au/story/6492701/opinion-w…
I recall after Ash Wednesday as a teenager, it was said then that bush fires are ferocious when they move through the tree tops (Crown Fire). Ground matter be damned. Every major bush fire its the same thing, tree tops. Sure the ground burns, and bugger being caught in it, but the tops is where its most dangerous. Ember attack, embers up to 30km, fires moving at 30kph… but we forget how much is the result of fire in the canopy, and focus on burn offs and ground matter, stupidly blaming greenies etc solving nothing as they arent to blame, and werent in the history of bushfire in Aus. From my understanding if the leaf matter is dense and packed as it is with age and rain, and more age and rain, it burns slowly even if tinder dry at the time of fire. If loose, it burns fast. If youve ever BBQed or camped with a fire, it makes sense. Regular burn off will mean all leaf and twig matter is loose.
It amazes me how we need to learn this stuff, or ignore it, every major fire season. There was a royal commission or similar after the 1939 Black Friday fires (worst in history at the time), yet we still needed another after Ash Wednesday, and apparently we need still more studies and commissions.
Why we need to act like this is the first time, every time, is beyond me. How we let them keep doing it boggles my mind.
@Tuba: Tuba: Not exactly sure what you are trying to say there. When the Aussie bush is dry it burns easily. When we haven’t had a lot of rain it gets dry. Lightning (and meathead arsonists) causes fires. Bad conditions make it worse.
I guess we just don’t learn very well. You have to have lived through catastrophic conditions to understand and most of us haven’t.
@Euphemistic: Yeah I know, even absent drought the south of the continent (WA, SA, Vic, NSW and Tas) burns very well. Drought only adds to the problem and makes super fires more likely. Add in dry hot northern winds and whooshka is more likely than not. Its dry air … humidity reduces risk.
The OP was suggesting reduction of causes and would prefer not to need fireys at this time of year. You mention back burning and hazard reduction. But back burning is not the fix people think it is. Back burn all you like, the fire does and will race through the tree tops (known as a Crown Fire). Houses can and do explode into flame from the fire front, not a flame touching it, no embers, no usual thing people assume will ignite it. The temps in the red hot embers of a fireplace can be 6 or 800 degrees, in a bushfire with the gasses they generate temps that can reach 1600 and thats not ground matter. Not that its not part of the issue.
What I linked too, deals with not only hazard reduction burning, but a bushfire just months earlier, none of which stopped the second bushfire.
Its a massive risk to stay and fight and not for typical reasons. The thing that catches people out is they assume fire has certain character, and bushfire does not behave like they expect, at 1600 degrees, it shouldnt be surprising.
It amazes me how anyone thinks they can be stopped when conditions favor the fire.
Im not sure if you have done any burning off even of branches etc and garden waste on acreage, but light a fire some day, and when you add dry branches leaves still attached, watch the dry leaves burn compared to the rest of the fire you just lit. It takes bugger all material to make the flames leap metres in the air, let alone horizontal movement in the canopy of a forest of dry leaves, and a 30km/h wind pushing it along, let alone 110 km/h which they can exceed…
Mate, it’s going to take a long time to turn around the Titanic that is climate change. That’s the measure to be taken so ‘things don’t get this out of hand’. And governments/nations haven’t even started to get really serious about doing that, and and even when they do, it will still take a long time to turn that ship. Until then, expect many, many more decades of catastrophic ‘summer’ bush fires across this big (hot and dry) brown land.
At least there won't be any icebergs to run into.
So when arsonists are to blame for fires it's climate change that made them do it?
Police have charged 9 people in NSW for starting fires which some are still going.
Fun fact. Climate change got the earth out of the ice age.
There is a weather pattern called el Nino which brings dry hot summers and el Nina are the opposite, wet seasons.
You could win an award for mental gymnastics with that reasoning. No one is claiming that climate change ignited the fires.
you know the average temps gonna rise 2 more degrees in the next decade.. maybe look at the expansion of the uninhabitable interior with a 3 degree rise.. meanwhile carry on paying those yank energy and mining companies over the next decade and be happy…
@mlburnian: what you mean from the ash in the sky, from the fires? you do understand that the hellfires create deforestation, increase global warming etc - we are already in the spiral - just sit down and watch the superbowl and thank the USA for destroying the world that was.
@mlburnian: Let me try some logic with you.
None of us are scientists, and yet people like to suggest these scientists are too stupid to read a thermometer, yet the only reason deniers know there is a natural cycle, and orbits and the like to use as spurious alternative reasoning is, science told you it exists. You didnt go out and work out the orbit of the planet, or the angle of tilt etc. Or the thickness of the atmosphere. Youre using science, as if its infallible, to argue how stupid scientists are.
But thats not the logic Im referring too. Lets leave the science out of it. When did politicians become more trustworthy than scientists? When did the planets consummate liars, lower on the totem of trust than 2nd hand car salesman, when did they become beacons of truth? If you told your great grandfather you believed a politician over the likes of Albert Einstein, he would slap the silly out of you.
And to demonstrate how tinfoil hat denial is… assume climate scientists are in on this conspiracy, and it would have to be for everyone one of them to be too stupid to read a thermometer, do you really think that the wider world of scientists with no involvement or vested interest in the climate fields, such as theoretical physicists, astronomers, or any of the hundreds of non climate related scientific fields are incapable of testing and retesting the hypotheses and results published and peer reviewed (I dare you to Google the term Peer Review)? To use popular culture, do you really think Sheldon isnt capable of testing Walowoitzs papers?
Do you seriously think not one of the better known scientists would think this thing you think is tomfoolery has enough global focus to warrant perusal enough to check their maths?
What this means is, if no one is doing it, every scientist, not just climate change scientists, are in on the scam… and now we are talking about millions of people, you think are too stupid to understand the science they taught you in the first place, are pulling off a scam when the mafia, who will kill you if you talk cant manage to keep secrets between two people, or a small group, let alone millions of scientists including millions more not even involved in their field.
Seriously, denial is some tin foil hat level conspiracy nuttery.
Just like the hole in the ozone layer of the 80s that many denied and dragged their little feet when we finally shifted from CFC pressure pack cans. Deniers then too. And what do you know, after we listened, and acted according to the science, that hole, gap, thin spot, (call it what you like) is getting smaller, thicker, whatever.
@Tuba: You are going off on many tangents, my comment was specifically about the 2 degree prediction and climate models. Climate models currently are far too simple, climate is extremely complex with a multitude of variables, an important one being cloud cover. Currently, climate models do not account for cloud cover amongst other variables
@mlburnian: Again, youre pretending that scientists are too stupid to do something that apparently you can do on the internet. 10 years from now, youll be sitting around polite company pretending you never made such statements.
@Tuba: This is not my opinion, it's accepted by even climate scientists that the models have a long way to go
@mlburnian: Yeah, but thats the thing about science, they use the best tools available at the time. And then dont hide when they learn something is wrong, even if it is their own assumptions they had to make. They dont forget to carry the one, or how to read a thermometer. They peer review, they are the most openly scrutinsed.
Its much more reliable as is, than your alternative.
Nope, not debating this. Your maths maybe… (there's currently something in the order of 150 fires burning)
Ecofascists bash Carbon dioxide, but CO2 doesn't combust. They put CO2 in household fire extinguishers. CO2 doesn't cause bushfires, oxygen does. Combustion of vegetation is similar to the combustion process most lifeforms use to generate energy (respiration), oxygen and high potential energy carbon-hydrogen bonds in, CO2 out.
A warming phase of climate change whether man made or natural, resutls from CO2 and other gases warming the planet, trapping warming sunlight in longer than it should be. A warmer planet results in temperate regions like Victoria, bottom of NSW, Tasmania, bottom of WA, becoming drier… and drier, burns better.
What you typed is nothing more than a word salad.
I think you only bothered to read the title and none of the content. bye.
Might not be for YEARS!
Having a really bad run here, last decade has seen us on the ground every summer, a least once a week. Probably once a month minimum for the rest of the year too. But looking forward to those YEARS of unrequiredness that must be due.
As above, you must be asking about the volunteer rural Fire service.
I'll throw my hat in the ring and say: the further you get from the city, the more you need to rely on your neighbours and community. It has always been this way.
The rural culture of assisting your neighbours and community can be very ingrained, as people have often lived in their rural community for many generations.
The reason these brave individuals volunteer are that I)the job needs to be done, why not you? ii) if you want help when you're in need, you better be helping when others are in need. iii) the only reason human beings have ever survived against nature is cooperation in times of need - it's instinctual to help others in your "tribe".
The last reason is particularly foreign to modern city living, and may serve to explain the sense of loneliness, isolation and disconnection plaguing modern life.
Rural folks help each other out. City folks do as much as possible to screw their neighbors over.
When i was growing up we used to get along with our neighbors, tell each other if we were going on holidays, to watch over the house, collect mail etc. No more. Only the neighbors on one side of my parents house we still get along with, every other neighbor at my house, inlaws etc, couldnt even tell you their names.
So important to ally yourself with your neighbours. I'm living in a small block of 4 flats, where you basically share an outside balcony and have back doors next to each other.
Since we get on well with the neighbours, we are always looking out when the other is away, taking packages inside etc. It's awesome.
Downstairs neighbours can die in a fire though…
You win some you lose some. Ive lived next door to people who wont even look you in the eye
Very good point mate. I'd also like to point out that the overwhelming majority of volunteering firemen are males who are likely fueled by their biological instincts to be strong and protective. In other words, everything most males get shamed for under the term 'toxic masculinity' these days.
I want to see the feminists put up and do their fair share of the dying and other dangerous work, or at least stop shaming those who do.
Obviously you got downvoted for tone, but I basically agree with the statements you made.
However, as a counterpoint, I know myself well enough to say no way in the world would I be a volunteer firefighter. Man, yes, brave, not really.
It's probably a social thing for the men in the community as well. We all know many if not most adult males have real difficulty forming new friendships in their 30s and beyond.
And while I'm no big fan of Third wave feminism, I'd wager that lots of those rural women are 10x tougher than the men in the city.
I agree, but very few women in rural communities would ever call themselves feminists (although ironically, they are the epitome of powerful and independent women). In my experience they often speak more vehemently than Donald Trump when it comes to bashing third wave feminist ideologies.
Point standing - two men have died already and countless more will experience unbearable physical and mental strain while attempting to protect others, and will likely not ask for anything in return, nor will they complain about not receiving help. They and their masculinity are our heroes.
@SlavOz: This reminds me of Miranda Devine writing something similar on Twitter and posting a photo of a mask-wearing firefighter and thanking those masculine men…until the RFS pointed out to her it was a woman. Heroes are heroes mate, don't be so gendered about it.
@MessyG: Nah, if the media gets to make everything about gender (most CEOs are male, most women get paid less, most sexual abuse victims are women, women are unsafe on our campuses etc etc), it should work the other way too. The world gives plenty of spotlight and pandering sympathy to women when they suffer something disproportionately, there's no reason not to return the favour for men.
Of course there are plenty of female volunteers, and they are equally heroic. But the point is that most of them are male, and that will still be the case in 100 years because men will always be driven in larger numbers to heroism due to their biological masculinity.
@SlavOz: Yeah agreed - what I get tired of hearing is that when someone bad happens to a woman it's because she's a woman, but when something good happens to a woman, or when good is done by a man, it's not because of their gender.
My general fall-back when people start the identity policics is just to say that I may be a white guy from a first world country, but I am a spectacle wearing person and we are called names and experience stereotyping starting in school years. And the height of my oppression is that I have to pay tax on my glasses. Which are a health necessity for my people. And I will not be silent.
"You wouldn't hit a man with glasses" is the verbal violence of bigotry. It's like we are not even worth being the subject of violent crime, which are indeed mostly committed against men by the way.
I'd put my contact lenses in but I'd only cry then out with the tears if a historically oppressed people. And don't argue against me if you don't have glasses, you'd never understand.
there’s usually more of a sense of community in more regional areas. I live in an area that’s currently under a high fire danger (and is classified this most summers), and most people here, especially those who are volunteers have extended family in the area and it’s where they grew up and nearly everyone knows everyone.
It’s usually not so much that people WANT to be a volunteer fire fighter, but it’s more of a sense of “if i don’t do it, who will?”
Also, the reason why there aren’t volunteer police (ambulance do have St. Johns who are volunteer) is because fighting fires is generally easier to help with. You’re either fully trained and experienced fire fighter controlling the battle plan, or you’re a firey on the front line, meaning you’ve either been given a specific job to do, or you’re holding a hose, which is simple enough: you just point the wet stuff at the hot stuff.
Yes we have fires every year, yes it’s always hot, yes volunteer firefighters do their thing all year round. However this year is different. Everything everyone is experiencing is way more intense. Fires are more intense and moving faster, weather conditions are more intense, the grounds are tinder dry.
You will be paying one way or the other. If not in emergency levy increases, such as we have in South Australia, or though insurance premiums on all insurance policies to cover the companies' loses due to property loses, or to cover government payments to the uninsured and utility owners' expenditure to repair infrastructure.