What's involved when you go to court and dispute a traffic fine?
What cost can be imposed on the losing party?
How long is the actual court appearance?
Will represent myself.
What's Involved When You Go to Court and Dispute a Traffic Fine?
vegemite2008 on 06/02/2020 - 19:10
Last edited 07/02/2020 - 08:33 by 1 other user
Last edited 07/02/2020 - 08:33 by 1 other user
Comments
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Read about you won't win. I've been twice in 18 years. Both camera offences. Represented myself. Both occasions verdict was Guilty with no conviction recorded, no fine and NO points.
So… because you've been to court twice in 18yrs, in a different state, your viewpoint invalidates everyone else's?
Well done
OP's isn't a camera offence, if you actually did read the thread properly. So now you're up against a Police Officer, who is deemed to have a better reputation than the average Joe in a court of law.
I’ve had a similar experience in nsw with a speeding fine and been let off with a guilty verdict and a section 10 which records no conviction and carries no fine. It was very much at the magistrates discretion though and I was very lucky.
For me though the choice was pay an $800 dollar odd fine and lose my license for 3 months, plus the extra costs mentioned above for insurance etc, or go to court and potentially pay the $800 plus a small fee for costs.
I admitted guilt and my only case was I did not see the signage - it was a temporary construction zone with no work being done and in a long drive I just missed the first signage. Clean record was looked at by the magistrate and discussed with what seemed a very lenient prosecutor.
I don’t know if I’d recommend doing the same unless you have a better case than I did though. OP can also call free legal aid on your state and discuss with them the probabilities.
Section 10's have been gone for years.
@Typical16-bitEnjoyer: This was 2010 - hard to believe it was 10 years ago tbh, but also can’t find anything on section 10s being removed at least in NSW. Have they?
@Typical16-bitEnjoyer: You are mistaken, half a second on Google would show they are alive and well in NSW.
@factor: On 24 October 2017, the NSW Parliament assented to the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Amendment (Sentencing Options) Act 2017 (the Act) which, as the name suggests, amends the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act 1999 (the Sentencing Act) in respect of the sentencing options available to courts in New South Wales.
The Act abolishes the following sentencing options in their present form:
Home detention under section 6 of the Sentencing Act,
Intensive correction orders under section 7,
Community service orders under section 8,
Good behaviour bonds with criminal convictions under section 9,
Good behaviour bonds without convictions under section 10, andhttps://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/acts/2017-53.pdf
http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdb/au/legis/nsw/consol…
Wanky law firm explanation here
I'll await your apology.
@Typical16-bitEnjoyer: Section 10 dismissals are still alive and well.
You are talking about one small part of section 10 which has changed to a new process (CRO).
People seeking a section 10 want the dismissal option - guilty, but let off any consequence immediately.
@factor: No. That "one small section" was the entire point. Commonly used to avoid driving suspensions.
I'll just assume you didn't read any of what I linked.
@Typical16-bitEnjoyer: And that has what to do with Snake 4's post? Who said - "Guilty with no conviction recorded, no fine and NO points."
That is a section 10 dismissal. Still alive and well. It's unrelated to the crap you are talking.
Personally I represent myself in court and win (ie Not Guilty, not the section 10 stuff) - that's because I can handle logic. I suggest if you are faced with court that you will need representation.
@factor: Jees, how often are you going to court that this statement:
Personally I represent myself in court and win
Needs to be said?!
To make such a definitive statement should need multiple court visits, and imo that's more than 5 to justify such a bold claim.
@factor: I really do not understand why you refuse to read what I've linked? It's the actual law. It explains exactly how it has changed. It contradicts what you are saying. I'm replying to robd's post. So further evidence your comprehension skills aren't tip top.
The term "section 10" commonly referred to is s 10(1)(b). No conviction. No fine. "Good behaviour Bond" which could be little/usually nothing - which was not recorded anywhere. Not so anymore. Read the conditions and changes of a CRO which replaces the GBH. You can't just 'get' a CRO compared to a GBH.
I don't really have a desire to continue this as I've given the relevant legislation, links that explain it, and your counter argument is essential "yeah nah mate".
Regardless you can always count on 98% of OzBargain responses to be 'crap'. I'd go as far as 99
I've been twice in 18 years.
Notable events in 2002.
U.S. President George W. Bush makes his first state of the union address
John Howard was our PM
Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother of the UK Dies
Iraq officially rejects new U.N. weapons inspections proposals preempting the "War" on Iraq.
Terrorists detonate massive bombs in two nightclubs in Kuta, Bali, killing 202
Slobodan Miloševic trial commences for war crimes
The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers is released
I went to court recently for a traffic fine and won.
Here is what I learn't…Firstly Its not worth getting represented if you just plead Guilty with an excuse.
i.e. You agree you committed the offence but wish to have your circumstances consideredBut if you plead innocent and want to fight it out you definitely need a lawyer.
i.e. You dont agree with the fine. You dont agree that you committed the offence. You have proof that you are innocentSo depends on:
The mood of the judge on the day and at the time your case comes up
The number of cases before you and how many were constant offenders with whom the judge is fed up
How many offences you have on your driving record, especially recent offences and how long you have been driving.To put this into perspective
I had some 20 cases before me most of whom were repeat offenders asking to be let off.
Much to my surprise The judge listened to every case and either let off or significantly reduced the penalty for most reasonable requests.
The judge ws not impressed with the repeat offenders and especially those who had offended recently.
Nobody was asked to pay court costs though when you plead guilty with an excuse it only takes a few minutes of the courts time to resolve.
When my case came up (red light camera) the judge noted my very clean driving history with a very minor case some 18 months prior (1 pt) read my submission to the penalty office and let me off.
I didnt have to say a word much to my surprise.So I trust this summary provides guidence for everyone…..
If you have a good long driving record and a very good excuse, chances are you will be let off if you dont waste the courts time and just plead guilty with an excuse.
Just make sure you dress responsibly as appearance is always very important.
But even if you dont get off, you will most likely get a reduced penalty and so wont be any worse off by attending courtEvery court and judge is different. Part of being a lawyer is, once you're very experienced at least, knowing the reputations and characteristics of different judges.
I agree with highanddrys sentiment that magistrates can be filled.
I had a similar experience and process to amayzingone when I appealed my suspension. I was young and stupid (103.3kmh in a 60 zone, street racing, had license for 15 days). I had 2 options when pleading - not guilty (ie find a technicality that the radar gun was broken) or guilt (to discuss the sentencing/applying leniency).
In the morning, they went through guilty/not guilty. The magistrate was a nut job. She was slapping fines in a crazy manner. In one case, someone jumped into a job while it was waiting at the light and there was a no stopping zone. She only waived 50% of the fine. NFi why. The taxi drivers lawyer asked whether his client should have dragged the new passenger back out on to the kerb forcefully. He got a $5k fine because he was in the airport precinct. It was wild west.
Thankfully, another magistrate took over for the afternoon traffic offences. They took us to closed court, taxi offences stayed with crazy magistrate. I provided my letter /reasons / references from the Dean at school /my brother's neurosurgeon. The magistrate and RTA lawyer read it. Asked me a few questions. And he went back to chambers to think about it. There were extenuating circumstances with my brother. In the end, he downgraded the suspension to 3 months and no loss of points. The RTA solicitors were shocked. It did help that I was well dressed (suit, haircut), well spoken and the guy before came in shorts, white singlet and rat tail. The magistrate was cranky with him.
Ended up serving the 3 months over the highschool to uni break, went to schoolies for a few weeks, then away with parents to WA for a few weeks and my boss paid for most of my cabs to work. I did learn my lesson, with only 1 speeding infringement in 17 years. Suspension was the best thing to happen - they used to call me safety first konazz after that.
I'm surprised OP posted here for help again, after receiving "useless replies" in a previous thread.
I saw that the other day… reminds me of this saying;
If one or two people speak to you like crap, then they are just a few arseholes…
If everyone that speaks to you, treats you like crap, maybe "you're" the arsehole…
OP sure appears to be a solid citizen and driver lmfao.
Hi OP
Don't listen to the others, they probably never seen a court room in their life. I went to court for a speeding over 30km/hr fine, I had 2 character references and completed a traffic offenders program before hand. I went to court waited 4 hours for my case to be heard and when it was my turn with the judge he gave me a section 10 and I walked away with nothing, no fine, no demerits, no suspension. The court fees was $169 dollars which is a shit ton less than the $1000+ fine I would have gotten if i took it on the chin. Contest it OP
Thanks mate.
I do appreciate your reply.
Very constructive. Thank you once again.
Have a great weekend.
You say you want to go to court to "dispute a traffic fine" I take it that means you are pleading "Not Guilty"?
If going for Not Guilty, it might be worth your while attending court on a day the traffic "contested list" is being heard - just to observe. My experience is this consists of the magistrate explaining to the accused why they are wrong at law even though they came in with a logical argument.
Are you arguing a "matter of fact" or a "matter of law" .. don't know .. don't go! If a "matter of fact" is it a strict or absolute liability offence in your jurisdiction? Have you read the "definitions" in the dictionary of the road rules? Read your offence, then read the terms in the dictionary. Still think you have a case? The prosecution does need to prove all elements of the offence - do any have a hole in them?
If you work out the law has you well and good - your options are plead guilty with an excuse, or just pay the infringement notice.
Thanks mate.
I do appreciate your reply.
Very constructive. Thank you once again.
Have a great weekend.
factor's comment is the first one I've read to chime in about the elements of the offence.
Most of the law (legislation) is worded so that they have to do their homework. This means proving ALL elements. So find the legislation and read the specific section/subsection and look at what they've charged you with. You are legally entitled to view the evidence - you may need to formally request it.Do your homework.
You might just walk. Things get missed if it's a human issued fine. Camera offences are a different bag.
And if/when you're pulled up, be nice - you'd be surprised how far that will carry you. Better to not get the ticket, by explaining yourself rationally. There are some people in uniform who are decent humans.Attending court can not only be educational but hilarious. The things people come up with! It may also piss you off if you have a sense of justice. Remember the law is not always just.
This is where the system is a bit shit.
It’s set up to basically force you to pay the fine, if you consider the options logically. Even if you win, you’ve probably lost anyway as most people will lose a minimum of a days wages. This is often more than the fine.
The system should be set up so that if the evidence does not support the fine (that is, you win) the commonwealth should be up for your costs and expenses, including lost wages.
"This is where the system is a bit shit."
I agree with you 100%.
Latest thing with mobile phone cameras.
I support 100% that anyone that is using a mobile phone when driving should be fined because it is dangerous.
BUT, the legislation to permit the mobile phone cameras reversed the onus of proof from police to drivers.
What would happen if your mobile phone is off and you see a spider crawling on your leg and you grab the mobile and kill the spider? At the same time the mobile phone camera takes a photo of you with the mobile in your hand…
You would have to take it to court and if you can prove that you used the mobile phone to kill the spider, you will win the case.
How many people can afford to go to court?
Are spiders a regular issue in your vehicle?
May I suggest a flyswatter? Must more effective.
Yeah nah mate. Go troll elsewhere.
QLD, traffic offense (stopping at yellow line), represented myself, pleaded not guilty (I wasn't), judge didn't even bother listening to what I had to say, lost, paid the fine plus $1,700 in court and council lawyer fee.
Waited for about an hour, was in court for 5 min.
So the offense is speeding, caught by an officer not a camera but won't say how many km over the limit or what the fine/points loss is.
Yeah nothing suss about that at all.
I once got a fine in the mail. The offence was committed while I was at work in a car that did not belong to me. I went to the police station and they said it would be easier to pay the fine.
Instead I chose to write saying I was at work at the time and had the timesheets to prove it. It went to court, I didnt turn up and the judge ruled in my favor anyway. The police contested it and it went to a 2nd court. Again I wrote a letter with a copy of my timesheet. The court ruled in my favor. Anything is possible. But I was very innocent. Unless you are also clearly innocent I would play it safe.I find it interesting that we don’t seem to ask - ARE you guilty? That’s the only question you need to ask to determine if you should be going to court or making a plea. Not whether the costs weigh up for you. What kind of corrupt moral compass… this is why our courts are filled with idiots.
"ARE you guilty? "
I am not guilty. I will not discuss the finer details in this forum.
I started this thread to help me to determine if it is worth it to go to court or simply loose the points and pay the fine.
It is also very stressful.
Thanks everyone for the input.
SydEng and Factor answered my questions. I appreciate that.
Have a great weekend.
Did you know that everyone in jail is innocent?
Just ask them!
I am not guilty. I won't tell you why, but I expect you to help me prove my innocence without telling you why.
I reckon he thinks he found a loophole.
Maybe he's going to declare himself a sovereign citizen.
Guilty or not is not really relevant. What can they prove and more importantly if you are challenging it what can YOU prove. If you can't prove it do you have an pristine clean driving record to give some chance of leniency. Of you have a dodgy record and your only defense is "honest I didn't do it" you are wasting your time and money.
OP has a history of driving while using a mobile phone… So, not a law abiding driver to start.
@CMH: Then he want to have some really nice proof that he is innocent like a dash cam with date and time stamps and speed.
@gromit: If he had that he wouldn't be coming here for advice.
Having proof like that is like having tomorrow's lottery numbers today. You'd be walking into the courtroom like you own the place.
I'd say SydEng and Factor gave you the answers you wanted to hear.
I wrote a post to say exactly that.
But then again I want OP to go to court and fight it just to see the ensuing Trainwreck :p
Be interested to know.
We had a fine to a company owned vehicle which by default is $3000 unless you nominate an individual.
Nomination was received late so they automatically put it back on the company and make you pay $3000. We sent through a review request that was received last April 2019 and they still have not attended to it.
Like it's taken them 8 months to review a request to nominate someone because our original nomination was received 1 week late.
Da fuc.
It's lunacy to have to pay $3000 instead of $300 for a fine because of a technicality.
I just came out of court yesterday for a parking fine that happened last year September. It was not near my local council but at the nearest court in the council of question that issued the fine.
You arrive at court and you sign in and check the list for which court room is hearing your case.
Once the magistrate is in, you bow and she will read out her proceedings for the day. At this time she will let you know when she estimates to get to your case and will ask you to come back later if she has other urgent things to attend. The courtroom will be packed if other cases and many AVOs. They will usually prioritise the AVOs ( most AVOs are short and Judge just has to enforce it) and put hearings( parking fine) last as they take more time. I waited from 9am to 12 noon before a 15 min tea break followed by more waiting till around 1:30pm. Usually there will be a formal lunch break. I hardly left the courtroom because listening to other people and their solicitor talk may give you some pointers.
Around 30mins before your case, the police prosecutor acting on behalf of council/ranger will give you a booklet of your case file as well as ranger statements. During this short exchange, if you have any new evidence not presented with your original review, it will be wise to bring it up with the police prosecutor. In my case I had a toll operator confirmation( not a toll account copy but actual letterhead from toll operator with my car details coming down a motorway at xx time) that my car in on the motorway during the alleged time I was parked in a council parking lot. I showed this to the police prosecutor and she had a word with the ranger and within 5 mins, the prosecutor informed the judge that they would like to drop my case.
It was a great experience to see our messy court system. I don’t know the court costs but when I called Justice NSW. They said usually it is the fine plus court fees which is a couple hundred if you lose. I told my wife if I lose then it’s a donation for seeing a NSW local court inaction.
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98% of posts here are pure crap. Pegaxes excepted.
How many of you have been to fight a traffic offence in court? My guess would be less the 0.5%
I keep reading about court costs and prosecutors. Never had a prosecutor present at my two appearances.
Read about wasting the courts time and money. The court staff are paid regardless of the number of cases.
Read about pay the fine and cop the points. Do people realise points have an affect on Greenslip cost and possible comprehensive insurance. I have a discount for having no points.
Read about you won't win. I've been twice in 18 years. Both camera offences. Represented myself. Both occasions verdict was Guilty with no conviction recorded, no fine and NO points.