I don't think healthcare workers should get free stuff

I don't really think frontline healthcare workers should get free stuff or special discounts.

Healthcare workers are some of the only people in the country with stable employment right now.

The entire service industry is doing it tough and centrelink lines are curling around the block, yet we are the ones getting discounted food and free coffees.

My colleagues in ICU and I are very grateful for the free food but I think it would be a much better use of people's resources and goodwill to help out the less fortunate in this difficult time.

Comments

  • +113 votes

    So you don't think that risking their lives is worthy of recognition?

    Look over at the UK death rate of hospital employees. It reminds me of the Chernobyl first responders….

    • +94 votes

      I think you’re missing the point. They are saying they don’t need free stuff at a time where millions of people are losing their jobs.

      • +38 votes

        They are saying they don’t need free stuff at a time where millions of people are losing their jobs.

        Then they don't need to take up the offers.

        • +7 votes

          my wife works in the corona virus ward directly caring for people who are sick and have tested positive for covid.

          She mentioned the other night that companies (it was dominos that night) regularly drop off free stuff to the hospital but never to their ward.

          Not a complaint, just laughing at the irony of how people are acutely aware of covid and healthcare workers, but in the covid ward they are missed.

          • +3 votes

            @Calam05: They probably can’t or don’t want to visit the covid ward

          • +11 votes

            @Calam05:

            but in the covid ward they are missed.

            But thats no in your example Domino's fault, they dropped food to the hospital, but seems like the 'admin' staff get greedy and don't really share it around.

            I'm sure Domino's thought the food would have been going to the front line workers.

          • +5 votes

            @Calam05: Contact me in PM, if you want free meals to be delivered for your wife and other staff.

            Edit: in Sydney area.

          • +1 vote

            @Calam05: LOL, It happans to me as well. I work for CoVid ward and it is away from the main hospital building. Although there are companies dropping off free food to the hospital regularly. We hardly got any. Neither does ICU. I believe that ED seems to get the most stuff. Staff sometimes a little bit disappointed.

            •  

              @sophiafang: thats very kind varunpant but its alright.

              JimmyF people are exceptionally grateful towards healthcare workers at this time purely because of covid. It's just funny that the covid workers aren't seeing it. I don't think admin did anything wrong. No one is upset. It's just a bit funny. :)

            •  

              @sophiafang: Which hospital are you at Sophia? Anywhere in QLD?

      • +15 votes

        Yeah I get that. But other workers aren't losing their jobs because cafe is offering healthcare staff a $1 coffee, or a takeaway offering them half price food.

        I say let them have it, they deserve it. But you are also right to highlight the fact that there are people worse off than yourselves. I guess that's the mindset of a health worker - looking out for others

        • +66 votes

          Specifically I am talking about things like the buy them a coffee campaign, where people are donating to gofundmes to pay for our coffees. https://www.gofundme.com/f/buy-them-a-coffee

          I think that if people have the goodwill to donate to the community, it should go to those truly in need, not to buy a small luxury for us

          • +10 votes

            @Save Medicare: Yeah I get it.

            Money is not the problem for clinicians and frankly most businesses are doing it for PR reasons anyway IMHO. There are people who actually need money and support.

            • +1 vote

              @lunchbox99: yah, this. I think it works both ways - its a big thankyou to those who are working their butts off to help curb the spread and keep ICU beds in check… and its a gesture that will hopefully buy those businesses some goodwill at the tail end of this drama!

          • +3 votes

            @Save Medicare: I think the coffee campaign was used as a way to help coffee shops keeping employees working
            instead of losing their jobs and lining up at centrelink.

            The coffee campaign could've changed to
            -Buy the people lining up at centrelink a coffee

            but maybe campaign organizer didn't think it will get people to give as much as giving it to a healthcare worker.

          • +3 votes

            @Save Medicare: And this kind of selfless thinking is exactly the reason why you deserve it the most :)

          •  

            @Save Medicare: First, coffee is not a luxury item.
            Second, it is a token of goodwill.
            Third, it helps the economy.

            Note: I am in Health, and eligible for most of the freebies. But I did not avail even a single freebie. Was tempted with half process Nando's ( didn't get it), but not a freebie, as it should be for the frontline staff.

          •  

            @Save Medicare: I'm glad you say this. (I am a bit too scared to rock the boat haha).

            I feel very similar to you. But I think for many others it is a positive distraction from all the gloom associated with Covid-19.

            I think there are many are trying to help those less fortunate but I guess the reality is that it is much easier to drop of dominos to a hospital, or offer free things to people with an AHPRA number rather than find someone who has lost their job, maybe doesn't qualify for social welfare and is struggling to make ends meet.

      •  

        Irrespective of their financial circumstance, medical staff deserves a special status especially in light of the current crisis.
        Money isn't everything. It's the recognition.

      •  

        I think instead of the free stuff. Maybe every one of those large companies could have dedicated support lines for these workers. (Effect could be more jobs overall rather than discounts.)

        I believe a healthcare worker's time is more important than a free month or discounted mobile plan. It's stressful enough for them, knowing that this service is available would put their minds at ease. (Not some discount to be honest - writing from friend's perspective.)

    • -4 votes

      where can i look that?

    •  

      Plus its not just medical workers that get discounts, its all essential workers.

    • +1 vote

      Did you even read what was posted? OP is being gracious and saying that he/she doesn't need help and would prefer the help be directed at the more needy and you go out and chastise OP?

    •  

      Not wanting to disparage the efforts of healthcare workers but I hardly think they are risking their lives. Zero people aged under 60 have died from this disease in Australia. The healthcare workers are more at risk of dying during their daily commute.

    • +3 votes

      I agree with the OP. They're doing the job they signed up for and are paid to do.

      The special recognition media fanfare is sickeningly superficial & shameless politicking. No doubt in this dumbed down feMillennial world I'll get howled down for speaking a logical truth, but neither logic nor fact kowtow to feelings.

  • +31 votes

    Im sorry but not only do i think healthcare workers deserve free stuff i think when this is all over they should be rewarded with a MP style pension where Australia looks after them like they looked after us! because they have been on the front line saving lives and putting their own lives and families at risk

    These Doctors, Nurses, Allied Health workers and Paramedics are the true Heros of modern era

    God bless them!

    • +10 votes

      Nurses and Paramedics probably but doctors? They already earn a fairly decent salary even within the public system. I think most people have no idea what they earn. Go to the carpark at a tertiary hospital (like mine) and have a look - BMWs, Porsches, Maseratis, Mercedes, teslas, etc. And not the cheap ones, high end ones.

      • +26 votes

        Because the guy holding the stop and go sign on the new tunnel being developed in victoria makeing $104 per hour compared to the nurse saving lives on $38 and hour is worth that much more?

        Come on mate i agree SOME doctors earn big dollars but it is incredibility HARD to become a doctor and they are under a lot of pressure

        They get no danger money like tradies on building sites do but they get assaulted and abused….

        They are expected to work hours they dont get paid for consistently because 'saving lives'

        When they retire a lot of nurses Allied health and paramedics, have psychological and physical injuries but there is no system to look after them….

        Get real mate i got more respect for these people then the AFL player who is moaning about having to take a pay cut from 370k a year to 150k a year for doing nothing

        • +13 votes

          Nice bait and switch. Use a nurse salary to justify pay for doctors.

          In Qld Health:
          RN $72.5 - $93k.
          clinical nurse $94.5k - $101.2k
          Clinical Nurse Consultant, Unit Manager, Public health Nurse $116k - $126k

          • +5 votes

            @lunchbox99: And you think that is good money for risking your life? getting assaulted? abused?

            Also going to Uni doing a Degree

            ……Mate you wanna have a look at what your bank managers/executives….or insurance executives

            or MPs …. god help you if you look at what laywers charge to write a letter…

          •  

            @lunchbox99: Chip it from a dentist's salary and give it to the nurses. Dentists not much help in these times of crisis.

          • +2 votes

            @lunchbox99: LMFO - $100k RN salaries in VIC is YP10, it takes 10 years after mandatory degree.
            Career progression needs a master degree for most roles.
            I work in IT and often sees $100k+ salary with 3 years exp..

            • +5 votes

              @pilmarion: I think people overestimate Australian earnings.

              For full time workers aged over 15, the median salary in Australia is $78,000

              If you include all taxpayers, the median salary is only $57,720

              Lookup the full-time adult 50th percentile figure:
              https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/PrimaryMainFeatures...

              What some people mistakenly quote is Average Weekly Earnings (AWE). Since the data doesn't follow a normal distribution, the AWE does not equate to what and "average person" earns. (Note in the table, the average FT adult salary is $200pw higher than than the median.)

              Refer to this note from the ABS:
              "It is important to note that AWE estimates do not relate to average award rates, nor to the earnings of the 'average person'"

            • +2 votes

              @pilmarion: Also work in IT and see many people struggling to make that after 10 years, you need to be a BA, PM, some sort of TL/Manager or someone with a specialty skill set (maybe some dev, security or cloud specialist with in demand skills) to get that salary in 3 years, in fact i dont know anyone earning that in 3 years.

              • +1 vote

                @Nebargains: Like among 500+ people i know in the industry, least 90% of them are the jobs you've mentioned. Maybe tech support?

                Even all grad program I know gets $65k or so. Then when they finish and enter into guaranteed junior level position it gets bumped to $80k ish.

              •  

                @Nebargains: Also work in IT, most roles will get there in a couple of years, where I'm at. Probably a factor of Sydney/Melbourne compared to other states

              • +2 votes

                @Nebargains: Exactly. People always quote bullshit IT salaries like everyone is making $100k @ 21 years of age..

          •  

            @lunchbox99: Work out those figures after tax. The ones that make more are usually working long hours. They also all studied several years (3-6 years) to become qualified. I suppose they should earn less to make you happier about your current situation?

            Tall poppy syndrome much..

        • +1 vote

          When I did say anything about other occupations deserving more money?

          I'm not guessing. I work in the industry in the largest hospital in Qld. They (doctors) earn good money.

          • -2 votes

            @lunchbox99: 2 of my mates are doctors by the time they finished they owed around 124k+ in just uni fee also they have to pay a F tone in insurance costs

            one of them is expected to relocate and work rural for the 1st 2 years of his career without any relocation bonus or expenses covered

            Compared that to Once AGAIN stop go Sign 4 day tafe course probably cost a couple 100 dollars….

            I donno what your on bloke but im not a doctor or a nurse but i appreciate our healthcare workers non of them get paid enough when compared to what other professions get paid ie insurance, bankers

            • +1 vote

              @Ontheshred: Junior doc wage was around $25/h a few years ago in VIC public hospital I recall. (It's publicly available information)

              They can do make decent bucks by doing overtime as they get paid 150%-200% + on-call allowance etc but OT is not free money.

              So what I hear is that's where many of them have I don't give a f**k mindset.

              Like they told they are the best and brightest in the country then got the best job in their profession then get paid $25/h with a truckload of HECS.

              • +3 votes

                @pilmarion: Ok kinda true

                GP here, Aussie trained but former international student.

                One thing to note is that, although the starting salary for interns is fairly low, with loading, it tends to average around $85-$90k per year. This increases significantly as years go on. RMO1 is about $90-$100k and RMO2/3/4 goes up from there. Once you're a registrar, depending on the training program, it can be a bit lower (GP, but depends on how busy your clinic is) to ED/surgical (which has lots of loading due to overtime/night shifts). A starting SMO salary is $155k/year at the lowest level but then you add on all the contract incentives — professional development money, car allowance, rural loading, retention allowance, and then you add on overtime and loading, and this salary is ~$250k/year starting at level 13 on the medical officer scale (fellowship year 1). So it's really not that bad.

                GPs make more if they have a busy clinic with many GPs I know making ~$300-$400k/year.

                So yeah, doctors work hard to get where they are, but it's not like we are poor.

                Now as for HECS; it's really a nothing issue for doctors to pay off. As an international who graduated with $200k/year debt (which is about average for a local American or Canadian student, where I'm from), this is much more difficult to pay off. Add on that our debts are private and gain interest the year we graduate and, as a PGY7, I have calculated that I have spent $50k in interest alone and have paid off $120k of my debt.

                So anyways, Aussie doctors really have little to complain about wrt remuneration. We are very well paid.

                Edit: I should note that I did not earn a paycheck until I was 30 years of age and that was starting at the intern level. This is a bit higher than the average of my med school class which was graduate entry.

                •  

                  @blergmonkeys: It's a bit of relief if a lot of docs actually thinks that way.

                  A doc I personally know was an ED registrar and he dropped off from that and became a GP once he realised he get to see his wife 2 days per week. (And many other similar stories)

                •  

                  @blergmonkeys: Most GPS would be lucky to earn over $200k per year.

                  $1500 billing per day, $500 expenses per day, minus 20% as a contractor.

                  The problem is that GPS think they earn 250k per year, but it is the equivalent of 200k per year in the real world.

                  •  

                    @mdavant: $500 in expenses?

                    Where are you making that up from?

                    Let’s go over this:

                    • Average $1500 daily billings
                    • 35% practice fee on average
                    • Take home about $1000
                    • 5 days per week = $5k/week (this is a low estimate when you include care plans, incentives, allowances)
                    • 48 weeks = ~$240k/year (again this is a low estimate)
                    • Indemnity, tpd, income protection $8-$10k
                    • RACGP and ahpra $2500
                    • Professional development $5-$10k

                    So… about $200k/year on the low end. And all expenses above are tax write offs.

                    •  

                      @blergmonkeys: $500 is the service fee, which, thankfully you included ( expenses) where the 20% covers holidays / super etc.

                      1. You forgot public holidays, which are around 10 days per year
                      2. You forgot that a contractor pays their own super.

                      You are like a lot of contractors who over-estimate their pay ( a bit like how most residential real estate "investors" have no idea how much money they make or lose)

                      I also like how you disagreed with me and then got pretty much the same figure!

                      •  

                        @mdavant: The only reason I disagreed was you saying most GPs would be lucky to make that. What I’m saying is that $200k is a low estimate. The earning capacity for a gp who knows how to bill and has care plans set up can easily exceed $350k. If you do skin or specialist work (skin, cosmetics, minor surgeries), then this can easily go to $400k+.

                        The low end is $200k for a full time gp. And that’s someone that either has a poorly trained/managed patient base or doesn’t bill properly.

                        I am a ubb GP and my daily billings are $2-$2.5k per day as I’m doing 2-3 care plans or reviews or health assessments every day. And these are all my patients, long term and the care plans are reasonable and ethical.

                        I forgot to add, if you work rural, you get big bonuses. I got $25k this year and $10k towards professional development.

                •  

                  @blergmonkeys: Bad show for telling the plebs what we earn…. on a site such as this… full of mean, tight fisted gomers who made china great by buying the cheapest junk on the shelf while leaving the Aussie made stuff alone.
                  The AMA would be apoplectic. Bad show.

                  • +1 vote

                    @TheCutter: I’m in the minority but I disagree that doctors somehow need to earn more than everyone else. I did 2 other degrees and had a few years as a computer programmer (worked at ibm), some time in research as a graduate student and was a teacher for a while before my career in medicine. Those jobs were just as difficult and had their own sets of pros/cons but the pay was far less. The idea that a doctor should earn 4-5 times the average earnings of an Australian is just plain wrong. Medicine should be about helping people and spreading evidence based knowledge, not earning a hefty paycheck.

            •  

              @Ontheshred: Where did they go to uni? I thought you’d get CSP for med.

          • +1 vote

            @lunchbox99: Yes they do earn good money, but they also work very hard for it and our lives depend on them. COVID will add new pressures and recognising our Docs and other key health workers seems reasonable.

            • +3 votes

              @morse: This sub thread was not about any of that - look at the first post. It was about whether they deserve "MP style pensions".

              All I said was they already get fair compensation. I did not say they don't work hard. I did not say they don't deserve their salary, and I did not say they should be paid less.

              •  

                @lunchbox99: Ah, yes. Fair enough. Must have got lost in the comments. Yeah, probably no need for MP style pensions given the super and other investments most docs have.

            • +2 votes

              @morse: Saving lives for covid depend on a lot of people - the medical researchers who developed the drugs you are given, the engineers that designed the ventilator, the supply chain staff that get all this to the hospital.

              The vaccine (if developed) will most likely be created by a scientist. If post exposure treatment is released (eg an antiviral, anti-inflammatory to treat ARDS etc) will be developed by a scientist. A chemical engineer will develop the scaled-up manufacturing.

              It's not just the person who see the patient responsible for these outcomes.

              • +1 vote

                @lunchbox99: Yes, I agree. I actually work mostly behind the scenes in health myself as well as a little clinical still - not in infectious diseases, but yes, I understand, it's not just those at the front who contribute. Having said that though, it is pretty full on what those on the frontline do, both now and always.

                IT has a massive role to play in terms of systems and surveillance. Mental health workers are super busy now too.

                I'm grateful to everyone involved. Especially those with the skills that they've worked years to develop that we are all totally dependent on. I know a lot of these people and I know despite their pay packets, nice holidays and flash cars they've made some huge sacrifices as well, time away from family, being assaulted, huge hours and now risk of catching COVID-19 themselves.

        •  

          i got more respect for these people then the AFL player who is moaning about having to take a pay cut from 370k a year to 150k a year for doing nothing

          Athletes and celebrities get paid proportionate to the amount of money they bring in for their employers. Technically speaking their model of pay is a lot more accurate than most people.

      • +6 votes

        It's not easy to become a doctor, nor is it easy to actually be a doctor.

        Remuneration can be seen as an indicator of the stress/time/responsibility involved

        • +1 vote

          I'm not saying it's bad that doctors earn good money but people should not be under the impression that they don't earn good money. This comment thread is specifically about someone suggesting health professionals should get a "MP style pension". I'm simply saying doctors are already fairly compensated.

          •  

            @lunchbox99: Ahh I see what you mean

          • -1 vote

            @lunchbox99: That’s fair enough I would argue MPs are fairly compensated? They are certainly over paid for what they do UNLIKE doctors

            Please note you can nit pick doctors but I said Allied Health and Nurses who make significantly less then Doctors do….

            Just referring to your article non-of the professions listed are outside of doctors I would even if up for a MP style pension for healthcare workers that aren’t doctors but you cant seperate the two normally…

            Personally bloke I think your back peddling and your comment people that work in healthcare are ‘generally’ under paid for what they do and the context of this forum is do they deserve ‘free stuff’ I would argue they don’t deserve free stuff they deserve MUCH better conditions ie danger pay, better pension benefits, free parking etc

            • +1 vote

              @Ontheshred: My very first response was yes for nurses and paramedics, don't agree for doctors cause they are already fairly compensated in my opinion, as demonstrated by the link I posted.

              But honestly, I think nurses are fairly compensated in general. They earn well above median Australian salary in most cases.

              • -4 votes

                @lunchbox99: There is also Allied Health and Personal Care Assistance they got there body on the line you don’t know what you Are on about because you don’t actually want to listen to the facts

                I don’t disagree Doctors don’t earn good coin but as I said MPs do too but the system looks after them.

                You got no idea of the commitment and effort all people in the health system put in - I don’t understand how you can have a opinion like you do without actually not knowing any of the facts…

                That list you have on news.com is also encompassing the ‘private setting’ which is a completely different kettle of fish but you seem to just are blind that ….

                I’m not arguing with you anymore but I think you need to learn to dig deeper then what you read on news.com.au champ

                • +4 votes

                  @Ontheshred: Well despite your continuing personal attack and condescending tone, I work in the field at the largest tertiary hospital in Queensland. I know more than you think.

                  • +1 vote

                    @lunchbox99: Nothing personal about anything I’ve said

                    You actually put in your personal life into it made it personal for you but as I said you don’t understand the industry if you think anyone in (Public) healthcare is over paid For the work they do or the work they have done to get there

                    I dare say the most under-appreciated people on the planet are personal care assistants and you haven’t even mentioned them

                    I deal with WorkCover and insurance and the amount of people who get injuries in the hospital isn’t worth what they get paid by a mile

                    My wife also used to audit hospitals and the most over paid useless people are the Managers and directors who generally aren’t clinically trained staff and are bad with managing public money and people and treat the clinical staff like shit 9/10

                    • +3 votes

                      @Ontheshred: I never said they were overpaid. You said they were underpaid.

                      I don't consider someone on over $200k pa to be underpaid in any field. Clearly you do. That's fine, but I disagree.

                      • +1 vote

                        @lunchbox99: NSee you don’t understand the industry

                        I consider them under paid when they spend 75k on insurance to remain in the job and are working 80 hours a week….

                        • +3 votes

                          @Ontheshred: Lol, don't understand the industry? I work in the industry.

                          • -1 vote

                            @lunchbox99: Your probably in management no offence

                            • +1 vote

                              @Ontheshred: I'm genuinely curious what you consider fair? I have already demonstrated that nurses are paid more than most Australian workers (higher than median wage) and doctors are in the highest earning incomes in the country.

                              is 10x the median enough? 20x, 50x? what exactly are you proposing?

                              It's a trick question because many are already at 10x the median salary.

                              EDIT Scratch that last edit, none of your business

                              • +1 vote

                                @lunchbox99: Never said they needed a pay rise i said they needed to be looked after champ - when they retire or hit an reasonable retirement age just like the system does for our useless Politicians.

                                I would argue all public service or jobs does in national interest - should be looked after its ie Police, Fire Fighters, Nurses, Paramedics, Allied Health, Personal care workers, Doctors etc after 15-20 years of service in the public Domain (NOT PRIVATE) they are guaranteed 3 things

                                1 - a national min wage pension (non means tested) when they retire accessible from age 55.
                                2 - Access to mental and medical health services free of charge if needed for them and there spouse this should include dental
                                3 - All public servants who are working over-time to help Australians ie all the nurses doing 18 hour shifts are given a special tax concession so they dont get rip off on tax for helping Australians in need instead they are fairly compensated

                                That is MY opinion of looking after them but instead i got bloke like you who doesnt realise the national average wage is 83k a year and that includes a bunch of professions that dont require any higher education or specialist training and doesnt include the giant 'cash money' industry that exists in Australia it is a blank brainless statistic. It also is about 7-10 times less then the cost of houses in some cities and that isnt even taking tax into consideration….i could go on about how badly Health care workers are treated but again i work with workcover and have seen what its like when there back/neck/shoulds/mental is stuffed and wanks in management and insurance are denying claims for physio, medical and mental support because of loop holes or because the system doesnt care and that shouldnt be allowed! we give money to every idiot under the sun these days ie junkies, doll cheats, Scott Cam, MPs etc but the people actually putting it on the line doing ACTUAL GOOD get shafted - you need to get real mate if you think the system is fair for them…

                                Just keep in mind every nurse doctor, allied health, PCA etc could walk off the job in this time of crisis and demand a 500% pay rise but they wont do that because unlike a lot of flogs in management, MPs, AFL etc they are generally good people and it isnt about the money

                                Also if you have ever read any of my posts i am a VERY capitalist and Right wing person and i have these views

                                • +3 votes

                                  @Ontheshred: Stop calling me bloke, mate and other such nonsense.

                                  You were advocating for MP style pensions. I think they are paid fairly now and have the same pension access in old age as anyone. All those people you mention in the public sector have had very generous superannuation for a lot longer than most Australians, so have much better retirement savings than most people.

                                  The crux of your bizarre rant seems to be a feeling that others who do nothing productive (in your blinkered view) get paid more and so it's grossly unfair. Well harden up princess. That's the real world.

                                  EDIT: "Scott cam"… Wow.

                                  •  

                                    @lunchbox99: "harden up princess thats the real world" as i said every doctor and nurse health worker etc could walk off the job and demand a better deal right now but they wont because they are good people or have some conscious - but you know "harden up" if i was in there shoes i would ask for a 500% pay rise and my response to flogs would be "harden up this is the real world otherwise COVID19 could kill over 500,000 Australians" - however people in the job like that arent ruthless bout money like I and it is why i couldnt do a job like that

                                    The fact you cant see that they deserve MUCH better i donno what to say….

                                    Once again, personally it makes no difference to me if ppl are happy to be taken advantage of then thats the individuals choice but facts are there it isnt (morally) right if you ask me your comments here are a prime example 'harden up' is pretty disgusting and a little bit sad that an adult can have that attitude…I wonder if you would say that if you were laying in ICU right now?

                                    • +1 vote

                                      @Ontheshred: Well luckily for us you aren't a doctor then huh?

                                      For a right wing capitalist, you have very left wing views on collective bargaining.

                                      • -2 votes

                                        @lunchbox99: I am for 'Australians' the reason i am anti left is because the left has become about humanitarian ideals that dont benefit hard working Aussies - im all for socialist values that benefit hard working Australians but foreigners, bludgers, animal activist and drug abusers etc i got no time for sympathy for

                      • -1 vote

                        @lunchbox99: You don’t consider anyone over 200k pa to be underpaid in any field?

                        Yea…you’re too junior to know anything about your own field.

                        • +5 votes

                          @Jaystea: Lol, I meant relative to other Australians. Of course people earn a lot more in health. That was exactly my point in the first place. $200k+ puts you in the top 5% of the population.

                          And too junior? Lol. I wish.

                          While I think the health professionals are doing an incredibly important and dangerous job, I also acknowledge that many other people are also doing very important jobs and many of them do it for a lot less money.

                          Supermarket workers are exposed to potentially infected people all day every day and do it for essentially minimum wage. People in the supply chain, pharmacies, people keeping the power and water running, people at NBN & ISPs allowing people to work from home. All of these jobs (and more) are important.

                          And on the financial front, millions of people have lost their job and have a very difficult few months ahead. So no, I don't think health professionals need more money (perhaps danger pay is a reasonable idea).

                          •  

                            @lunchbox99: I suppose my prerogative was more on the side that if you were a surgeon operating at only 200k pa. It is too low because the cost of insurance, FRACS, AHPRA, conference fees would eat up your margins. Why Med school for 5-8 years, train for 10 years and get your letters, only to be paid an effective wage of under 100k (after fees and taxes involved)? Might as well work in retail. At least you get to keep most of the wage you earn.

                            I have no opinion on more money. I’m plenty happy with what I get.

                            • +2 votes

                              @Jaystea: Just checked ABS data from the 2016 census. 3.8% of Australians earned more than $156k pa.

                              I already linked taxable incomes of health professionals, they represent 80% of the top 50 incomes in the country. Frankly someone on $500k crying poor is a little sick (pardon the pun).

                              Show me a surgeon who is on $100k pa after everything is taken out. Also many of the items you quoted are tax deductible.

                              •  

                                @lunchbox99: I don’t think we’re arguing the same things here. I also don’t think we disagree all that much 😂 I see your point…which has nothing to do with mine.

                                • +2 votes

                                  @Jaystea: No worries.

                                  I'm not going to comment anymore anyway. This is going around in circles. It all started because I simply cast doubt over people who earn pretty good coin getting a MP style pension. My view is yes, they work hard but they also earn fairly decent coin relative to most people, so they don't need more government handouts.

                                  Of course scotty cam is overpaid. He got $350k to do a few ads for apprentices or something.

                                  EDIT: You want obscene money. Look at some of the billionaires. If you earned $100k per day tax free since Jesus was around, Jeff Bezos would still have more money than you.

                          •  

                            @lunchbox99: I must ask my supermarket assistant which competitive entrance requirements they were required to ace, and which degree they needed to study hard for, or their fellowship exams, or stressful decisions made day in or day out.

                      •  

                        @lunchbox99: I guess you don't think that making life and death decisions is important or deserving of some remuneration for the knowledge and intestinal fortitude required of this role, but I do.

                        •  

                          @mdavant: They do get remunerated decently already, at a rate greater than half the population in their first year of work. The crux of this complaint seems to be that doctors higher than average salaries aren't high enough. Well I disagree.

          •  

            @lunchbox99: You would be surprised at what most hospital doctors earn. The first ones that treat you in ED (not their consultant bosses) earn less than 90k p.a.

          • +2 votes

            @lunchbox99: You're exclusively looking at physicians at the end of the career, and looking at the cars in the carpark is a heavy bias. The junior docs graduating on as much pay as the ward cleaner are parking their trash cars 3 blocks away and walking to work. Junior docs and nurses are the ones up close and personal doing aerosolising procedures and swapped potential COVID patients, not the bosses in their offices making the fat stacks. I think you're a bit detached from the reality of the healthcare system and you likely don't work in it. Sure consultants and VMOs are on great money, but they're the minority in the healthcare system. The grunts on the front line, like myself, who are pulling extra shifts and losing out of family time get nothing to show for it.

            Luckily you for you I guess, the NSW treasurer is passing a bill to lower the pay of junior doctors this year. Not the staff specialists and bosses whose figures you refer to in the list you posted above, but the juniors who get spat and coughed on in our emergency departments. Our "union" is useless and cannot fight it, and the public thinks we're all driving Mercedes and Audi, so it'll go unnoticed.

            A first year doctor earns $3/hr more than a TAFE trained nurse who studied for 1 year. Get a little perspective.

            edit: spelling

            • +1 vote

              @Liqqeh: I actually agree with what you're saying - that junior doctors are overworked, underpaid and are often sacrificing personal or family time due to their work. I would know, I have family who are doctors and many of my friends who I went to uni with ended up in graduate medical courses. One of my good friends was a JMO before he decided to quit and do a PhD in physiology - he's now a university professor and tells me life is much better.

              However, that being said, don't you think that the market has sorted this out? Medicine continues to be (by far) the most competitive course to get into at university, a large majority of very high achievers are continuing to choose medicine as a career and we continue to pump out thousands of very qualified doctors every year. It seems that people are still looking at their future as a doctor and still voluntarily choosing that path.

              My question is why junior doctors continue to do what they do if they are treated that poorly and are that underpaid? I understand the community service aspect to medicine, but there has to be more to it. For example, teachers perform an equally important role in society and teaching attracts nowhere near the best of the best the way that medicine does.

              I'm curious to know what your opinion is.

              •  

                @p1 ama: Because of marketing.
                An iPhone isn't the best phone in the world, but gosh is the adverts catchy and persuasive. So they end up selling hundreds of millions.

                When you're studying for Science/Medicine you're in so much stress that all you have capacity for is to double-down and focus on your studies. And you build this fantasy in your head that everything is going to be great and worth it if you can just pass this or get through that. It's less of a motivation and more of a coping mechanism.

                There are other high-demanding jobs, but overall it's a branding issue. You wouldn't mind being an engineer, oh look it requires living in remote mining facilities. Or maybe the military sounds lucrative, oh crap there are friendlies firing at you. Or maybe you can be a lawyer, objection you will bore yourself reading for hours on end.

                Doctors is what is attractive for women, for your parents, and for your peers. The best branding from the available careers, despite that it causes you to go a little crazy, broke, and unappreciated. The crafty doctors are the ones that specialize early and hit the $200k jobs before they turn 30. The majority are barely hitting $100k. And yes it is the majority, the grunts, who get coughed, sneezed, and threatened. The $200k managers and specialist are few and they're in much less risky positions, as understandable from the hospitals insurance perspective. If anything, take some from the overpaid and useless people and give to the underpaid grunts. It's not like it will cause an influx of doctors since branding is already the best, and supply is kept bottlenecked and controled by the government/universities acceptance program.

  • Top