Possible Fraud? Demo Yaris Bought and Asked The Car Back

Started a job recently and the company was getting a cheap car for me to travel around sites. The budget was $15000 and I found a demo Yaris which was 2300km on it.

The car was found on carsales.com.au and the sells appear to be a dealer. Due to the virus situation, the car was delivered to me and the cost includes the transfer of title service.

I got the car on 14th April and did a test drive before letting the companies accountant send the money through. I found out that the car doesn't have the owner's manual and service book before paying the money and the seller told me to go to any Toyota dealer and I will get the service book. (It concerns me but I told him I have recorded the phone call and he will be liable if I can't get the service book). He told me he has done the transfer of the title in that afternoon and my company accountant has purchased comprehensive insurance to that car.

I just got a call this afternoon from someone who claims to be from the dealer and ask me to have their car back and he will refund me the full amount due to them unable to provide the service book. I told him that it is not my decision as it is a company car and insurance has already been purchased on it, he offered to give me the insurance money too. He also told me that the car is still currently under his dealership. I told that guy I need to verify it and then called the original sells person (he hasn't been picking up my phone since the 15th April after I told him the Toyota dealer will not provide me service book). The sells person confirmed that the call was from his boss and he is not with the dealer anymore and I have a choice of return the car or not.

I went to service NSW this afternoon to check if the car is under my company or the deal and I was told that I may only check with the letter of the company's director. I was also told that to transfer the car to my company's name, it will also require the director's signature which I never gave to the seller.

I am not sure this is a scam or anything and I want to have some idea about this case before I go to my boss. After all, I am the one who screwed up the purchase and I want to minimise the damage to my reputation in the company.

Community, please Holmes this and give some advice. I left out some details to make it short but will reply to any comment.

Comments

  •  

    PS. I don't think it is relevant but someone crashed into my car last Thursday and I got some minor scratch on the back of the car. Didn't worry about it since it is not my fault and we have the insurance. But it might become a bigger problem if the car is actually not owned by my company yet or if I have to return this car to the dealer.

  • +8 votes

    Community, please Holmes this…

    I wouldn't know where to start.

  • +7 votes

    dealer's name: Grand Autos Sydney Pty Ltd
    website: www.grandautossydney.com.au
    The website is not working, the landline from google is also not working

  •  

    To me, I don't want to return the car as it took me quite a while to find a good deal but without a service book and the asking to refund situation, there might be some problem with the car itself? (Maybe not legal to sell in Australia?) Do I still get the warranty if there is no service book?

    • +43 votes

      Yes I think 'why do they want it back' is a very important question. Nobody refunds a car over a book.

      • +23 votes

        Plot twist - Perhaps this goes further than just the car, and the book - dodgy car salesman, who knows! Check under the boot lining and bonnet, maybe there's a 'hidden' value in the car and someone wants to get their product back!

      • +1 vote

        I've had a car refunded over a book.

  • +58 votes

    Go to your employer and explain the situation. They paid for the car and who knows, may even legally own it?
    They will find out about it all eventually anyway.
    By the sound of it, as an employer, I would not rely on you to purchase anything more than a litre of milk in the future.

    •  

      Yeah, that why I want to have some idea on what I am getting into. I will also not be able to work if I return the car to the seller. On the other hand, since they are claiming Toyota is not giving the service book, I'm worried if the car has some problem itself.

    • +13 votes

      I'm keen to know what you think the OP actually didn't do correctly based on the info provided to us.

      Say your his boss, what would you reprimand him for - trying to save the company money, getting a good deal and making sure all other areas were taken care of from a compliance point of view

  • +17 votes

    Get refund 1st. Then give the car back.
    If you give the car back without the refund then you'll have nothing and be going to court to claim your losses.
    It will be a very tedious process.
    Good luck

    • +2 votes

      The car itself has been a good car (basically a new Yaris) and from my deep heart I just want to pretend nothing happened and not returning it.

      • +3 votes

        The car has not been transferred into your name so they still own it.
        You need a sale document and a RWC to transfer otherwise they technically still own it.

        •  

          I do have a signed sells contract from them though

          • +3 votes

            @bargaingod123: Ok. So the choice is up to you. Keep it without logbooks which cannot prove the service history/kms. Pay the stamp duty, transfer fees and it's yours
            You can contact Toyota and get its service history.
            I mean it is a $15K car so is the logbooks going to really impact on you/re-sell? No i don't think so.
            If it was a $100K car, then yes

            •  

              @vinni9284: The selling price includes the stamp duty and transfer fee. It is also a demo car and hasn't reached its first service yet. I have the idea of only doing the service in with official dealer so they will have a log of service in future.
              So if it is not impacting anything, may I just ignore what has happened and move on?

              • +2 votes

                @bargaingod123: Did you also receive the comprehensive PPSR check?
                It can be 2300kms but the odometers can be rolled back

                •  

                  @vinni9284: NO, should I do it now? it will show who owns the car right? sadly it is going to cost me $30+

                    • +5 votes

                      @vinni9284: The $35+ one includes "Odometer check"

                      Would love to know how they do that without physical access to the car :)

                      • +20 votes

                        @pepitovfr: What I love about this site, many are so neg happy without understanding the crux of my response.

                        I have just went through this similar predicament of a possible scam

                        1 - Purchased a car recently advertised with less than 100K Kms for $35K
                        2 - Dealer provided their own PPSR check. All clear
                        3 - I did my own comprehensive PPSR
                        4 - Flagged odometer 126K Kms back in 2016
                        5 - Dealer pleaded to be dumb to have no idea about odo rollback LOL
                        6 - Dealer removed car from ad for a month.
                        7 - The same car popped up in another dealership in another state with 156K KMs (Can trace by VIN that must be provided on CarSales etc)

                        I saved myself from buying a fraud lemon. … for only $35!!
                        Log book is king! That is if you can trace back and marry the kms to it

                        That easy to scam people!!!! It's easy as using an OBD2 scanner from a professional to pick and chose the Kms

                        People on this site can happily neg about being a fish ass-tight and not spend $35 for the comp check lol

                        I believe that when dealers/mechanics services the car etc, the kms are recorded to a central database and kept, or when the car is transferred to another buyer, the kms is logged
                        That's something requires research

                        • +15 votes

                          @vinni9284: I think the issue people are taking (and hence the negs) is that ppsr.com.au is trying to get people to pay more for the same report that they can get off ppsr.gov.au, for a much higher fee

                          Source Cost Inclusions
                          ppsr.com.au $25.00 online self-service; One or more of (not specified) Written Off, Finance, Stolen, Registration, VIN, Odometer, possibly more?
                          ppsr.com.au $36.95 online self-service; One or more of (not specified) Written Off, Finance, Stolen, Registration, VIN, Odometer, possibly more?
                          ppsr.gov.au $2.00 online self-service; free from debt, safe from repossession, not reported written off, not reported stolen
                          ppsr.gov.au $7.00 assisted phone service; free from debt, safe from repossession, not reported written off, not reported stolen

                          The only thing extra really is odometer, VIN and registration information; the latter of which can be looked up via separate government reports - i.e. for QLD the "Rego Check" which is also available as an app.

                          Speaking of Odometer, how is this information captured by ppsr.com.au, and how is it verified?

                          • +5 votes

                            @Chandler: Ok I am referring to the site that is verified by Equifax.
                            https://www.carhistory.com.au/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=...

                            Enter the rego and you will see two options

                            Edit: Ok so looking at a few different sites, they can fluctuate in price. But the odo check is not $2

                            Regardless, what's a measly $25 - $36 for a comprehensive check and a car that may be worth thousands? Are you going to be checking cars every week?
                            I'm not going to go through 50 sites for the better deal. My advice is based upon my experience and expenditure.

                            • +2 votes

                              @vinni9284: PPSR redirects to carhistory.com.au after you go to get the report. I assume they only have the ppsr.com.au to obfuscate things and take some business off ppsr.gov.au

                              The issue I have with the site is that all it is doing is taking publicly available information (or information available for a much smaller fee) and making their own report. Yes, they're hardly the first company to do it, but it's not like I'm singling them out on my own post.

                              Updated table (couldn't edit since you'd already replied):

                              Source Cost Inclusions
                              ppsr.com.au $25.00 online self-service; PPSR certificate, Stolen check, Written-off check, Finance check, Registration details, Takata airbag recall data
                              ppsr.com.au $36.95 online self-service; PPSR certificate, Stolen check, Written-off check, Finance check, VIN check, Odometer check, Registration details, First sale information, Vehicle valuation, Price/odometer comparison, Takata airbag recall data
                              ppsr.gov.au $2.00 online self-service; free from debt, safe from repossession, not reported written off, not reported stolen
                              ppsr.gov.au $7.00 assisted phone service; free from debt, safe from repossession, not reported written off, not reported stolen

                              The only thing I can see that would lead me to believe the odometer thing could be useful is that it looks like they dig through old sales information to see if the odometer has been listed inconsistently - i.e. car listed in 2017 with 10k ODO, listed again in 2018 with 8k ODO.

                              Looks like the carhistory / ppsr.com.au report you're paying for convenience (which could summarise a lot a business models, I know).

                              Definitely agree that $25-36 for a check on a car that may be worth thousands may be worth it, but if all you're after is the information included in the $2, why pay more?

                              • +6 votes

                                @Chandler:

                                Looks like the carhistory / ppsr.com.au report you're paying for convenience (which could summarise a lot a business models, I know).

                                This!

                                That's life!
                                I spent $37 and it saved me $35K!!

                                Too many ppl are looking at the cost but not the service or heartaches it can avoid. For a price of a slab of Beer

                        • +3 votes

                          @vinni9284: Is the $35 one better then the $5 one from the government?

                        •  

                          @vinni9284: I thought the km's on a ppsr report were just what the last seller/previous owner of the car put down as the km's on the clock.
                          I could see this causing these kind of misalignments with the actual km on the clock.

                          I'm in SA and I'm pretty sure last time I sold a car I had to enter how many Km's were on the clock on a gov website.
                          It was just off the top of my head (thus igniting my curiosity in this threads side convo).

                          Thanks for the ppsr wisdom anyway.

                      • +1 vote

                        @pepitovfr: During every registration renewal check/roadworthy/pink slip, the authorised inspection station mechanic will log the kilometres and they’re sent to that state’s authority - RMS in NSW etc.

                      •  

                        @pepitovfr: They list the km at checkpoints when it has ever been recorded when serviced, sold, in any reportable accidents etc.

                        I appreciated this as once I was about to get a 90,000km 20yr old "single owner" Toyota which had a 280,000km checkpoint on it, 6 month earlier.

                        Thankfully they gave back the holding deposit.

                        Helps a lot for the lemons.

                  • +2 votes

                    @bargaingod123: I don't think it shows who owns the car, but it will tell you if there is a car loan against it, or if it has been previously written off.

                  • +8 votes

                    @bargaingod123: https://www.ppsr.gov.au/search-the-ppsr

                    Do this one - it's $2!

                    You can see if the cars been written off previously and any money owing on it.

                • +1 vote

                  @vinni9284: PPSR would not show up an odometer roll back, especially on a near brand new car.

                  • +1 vote

                    @pegaxs: I don't agree.
                    The kms will be recorded as another smaller, independent Dealer (Looks like no longer in business) owns this car and not from a Toyota dealership. Therefore a transfer of sale, registration etc has been completed hence the kms will be in the RMS database.(From RWC odometer recording)
                    If it was directly from a Toyota Dealership then I would say don't waste your money on the PPSR as they should provide. Plus you would expect them to be more reputable.
                    Cheers

                    •  

                      @vinni9284: Recorded from where and when, exactly?

                      Most states have no requirement for a yearly RWC. Hell, even in NSW, the first 5 years of new vehicle ownership does not require a RWC. There is a possibility that at no time that any vehicle in this age range, if owned continuously, would ever come into contact with having its odometer reading recorded.

                      It would be easy in any state to own a car for 5 ~ 10 years and never have to go anywhere and have the odometer reading noted down. A new car in NSW could go 5 years, have 300,000km on it and it has never seen a road worthy check. It has its odometer wound back and sold on as a car with 98,000. How the hell would your system find that?

                      What about in Vic, buy a car, use it for 10 years and only have to get a RWC when you sell it.

                      I have tried on multiple occasions to get odometer readings from the local RMS and I get told the same thing, "We just don't keep that type of data." Hell, On my last 2 pink slips, the guy doing the check even said to me he never notes down the odometer reading after I asked him if he needed the odometer reading… So, I very much doubt that the system a: even exists, b: is anywhere near accurate c: the government just gives this data out.

                      I also doubt there is some national database that has access to every dealers computer system that tracks vehicle servicing. Dealerships wouldn't willing give over this information, the manufacturer/importer wouldn't just hand over this data and there is no requirement for them to deposit this information… Hell, I have tried to get service information about a vehicle from dealerships before and they wont give it to me because it "privacy laws", even though I wasn't asking anything about the previous owner.

                      At a best guess, this "rollback tracking" site just scrapes and keeps data it found from sales sites like CrapSales, Scumtree, fleabay and Fartbook, ie: This VIN was last listed for sale in 2009 with 128,975km, it is now being sold in 2020 with 123,634km, ring alarm bell. And if it doesn't know, it probably puts in a guestimate on what it thinks it should be "round about"… ie: 20yo car, should have about 340,000km, this one has 129,834km, ring alarm bell.

                      So, basically, you are paying a HUGE premium on what is basically a "guesstimate" or would be lucky to catch maybe one car out in 100,000 (being generous). So, it's a gimmick at best.

                      •  

                        @pegaxs: Well, tbh I cannot answer how the data is collected or even it is being enforced.
                        But then the government wants to know the price of the car, house etc (so we can pay stamp duty) so there must be some form of data collection somewhere.

                        For me, it worked and saved me buying a lemon. So I am the 100000th chance (as you say being generous) guesstimate statistic that the PPSR odometer rollback check was successful.

                        I wouldn't consider $37 as a HUUUUUUUGGGGEEE premium like you say! You make is sound like you're going broke to get little or no info.
                        Plus, I am not a dealer that conducts 20+ PPSR checks per day.

                        But don't we pay a premium for "peace of mind" insurance etc that may lead to a possibly full, half, less or stuff-all payout if something goes wrong when you claim?

                        How many processes/insurance like this are overrated and overpriced?

                        I am paying for peace of mind. Even it it is not worth it. I can sleep at night knowing I have done the best I can to filter out potential scammers/fraud, and all for $37!

                        I can understand your frustration of your efforts for checking as I've just been through it, and I agree with what you're saying.

                        I'm still looking for the same car that I nearly been scammed from a Dealer
                        Re: Dealer logbook checking privacy.
                        - All I can ask for is the seller to provide assistance into verifying this the best way they can. And if they are the 1st owner, it should be easier.
                        - Also there are OBD2 high-end scanners (not the $200 Supercheap auto ones) that can scan odometer/instrument cluster removal as the ECU keeps a checksum flag. Once again, it is up to the potential seller to assist into allocating time to drive with you to get it done.

                        If the seller is not really approachable or willing to assist you into proving the car's authenticity, then you have a good idea about what you might be buying. Some people are willing jump over hoops to sell as they need the money and some don't care.

                        All you can do is the best you can to filter out scammers but that's obviously not 100% foolproof
                        Cheers

                        • +1 vote

                          @vinni9284: $37 vs $2 is a 1,850% markup… I would say that any markup of this magnitude is "HUUUUGE", especially considering that for 99.9% of those searches, it would yield no beneficial data as the data is either non-existent or corrupted and unreliable.

                          And what you are paying for is false piece of mind. As I said, there is no way to verify that the data that they give you is even correct. There is no national database that all car odometer readings have to be entered into on any regular basis. There is no reliable way to collect this data, and no way to confirm that the data is true and correct. What you paid for is basically hot air, a placebo at best.

                          And that car you "avoided", how did you verify the data that was kept on it was correct. How was it collected. When was it collected. How was it entered and what process is in place to ensure the data is true and correct? What if some sales guy accidentally added it to Crapsales and put 223K instead of 123k and this site just scraped that info for their database. Or the RWC tester did the same thing with his terrible keyboard skills.

                          So, as I say every time someone posts up this $37 site; their data is dirty and inconsistent. You are paying a (HUUUUGE) 1,850% mark up for what is essentially unverifiable, unproven, possibly false/inaccurate data and selling it to suckers at a premium… To even suggest using this site is as misleading as what the site itself offers.

                          PS: We have a $3,000+ OBD scanning tool at work for doing almost any car and every system within those cars, and not one of those functions is a "Has the speedo ever been removed or tampered with" function…

                          •  

                            @pegaxs: Fair enough. It seems that you know the system better than me.

                            P.S I purchased this car and clearly on the Dashboard it had 99740 on 23-03-20.
                            PPSR check shows 127Kms 4 years ago.
                            The dealer advertised it with logbooks and said he didn't have it and will send later. Why? because he didn't have it

                            When I exposed this to a dealer/owner, he rushed from interstate and picked the car and gave me a refund.
                            Why is that? Is he innocent?

                            1 - I have evidence (photo) of the Dash with 99740 (phone exif file can clarify date) & Contract of sale noting kms. 23-03-20
                            2 - The car is currently advertised with a photo of the dash with 156432 kms in the ad. 06-05-20
                            Is there any more evidence required that can prove tampering? To substantiate PPSR?

                            The fraud currently for sale at a dealership in another state clearly showing the Dash with 156K Kms. So in a month, the car has driven 57K kms with the Covid-19 restrictions? (VIN is the same)

                            So, yes in my case, the PPSR worked, even it is a false piece of mind. Even if it was crap, it was the root cause of my enquiry hence the chain of events for recourse was successful.

                            I am looking for a Ford so I am referring the OBD2 scanner to the Ford IDS system.
                            It seems like you are in the industry, would you give me tips what to look for?
                            Cheers

                            • +1 vote

                              @vinni9284: What I am saying is, where did this 127k data come from? How do you know that that data is right? You are just taking the word of a website. Does this website have a photo of the speedo from 4 years ago?

                              How do you know that it was a wind back and not a legitimate issues with the cluster that was replaced. What facts do you have that the dealer was the one doing the dodgy and not the person that sold them the vehicle? Maybe the dealer took the vehicle and investigated it themselves and replaced the speedo unit with one closer to matching what is closer to real (hence from 127k to 156k in 4 years is far more plausable.) I think you are just making a lot of this shit up as you go along as it just doesn't make sense. Why was the last report 4 years ago and nothing since?

                              The other thing that doesn't make sense is, why bother. It's a Ford, not a Porsche. There would be more cost involved in getting the speedo changed than the price difference they could get for the car. If it showed up as a verifiable 300,000km (ie: you/friend owned the car and knew what the speedo was) and they wound it back to 99k, that might net them $1~2,000 more, but from 127k back to 99k is hardly a wind back worth doing. And the whole "we don't have the books" to hide the speedo wind back would hurt resale more than what the wind back would have increased the price.

                              would you give me tips what to look for?

                              • Yeah, stop putting your faith into bullshit websites that have no transparency or verifiable accuracy to their claims.
                              • Secondly, look at the vehicle and use some common sense. A wind back of 30,000 is hardly worth doing for anyone, not to mention that it isn't easy to do as it was 30 years ago. It's hardly worth it on, for example, a 2016MY car unless it is an ex-Taxi with 400,000km on it. Rolling back 28,000km is pointless.
                              • Look for other tell tales, like the condition/wear of the plastics, door trims, gear shifter, steering wheel, seats, carpet wear, foot pedals. You can wind a speedo back, but then you also have to replace all of these things to match it.
                              • Does it make sense? Is it a 20yo car with 72,000km (3,600km/year seems a bit too low). If it has books, are all the stamps and writing in the service book made with the same pen and stamp and look like it was filled out on the same day. Pens change, stamps change, dealers change, staff change, stamp ink changes over 20 years. A first service stamp from 2001 should not look like a 70,000km service stamp from 2019.
                              • If a sales person starts making excuses, walk away. Honest cars will speak for themselves. Everything will be on hand and available. If it's "Oh well, that book is at head office in another state…" walk.
                              •  

                                @pegaxs:

                                I think you are just making a lot of this shit up as you go along as it just doesn't make sense.

                                No i'm not.

                                Tbh, the dealer could be innocent in my scenario. I would never know.

                                It was an exclusive Ford and a few years old. They are increasing in value as they don't make them anymore. So not an ex-Taxi.
                                Odometers can be purchased from Fleabay for $300 so a quick installation and a ELM327 OBD2 flash unit for $28 can increase the car by $10K on resale after 1 hour of changes (so far i've researched)

                                Thanks for the tips btw

                                • +1 vote

                                  @vinni9284:

                                  can increase the car by $10K on resale

                                  Yeah, I doubt it. Winding back the odometer is usually not as easy as purchasing a speedo and a cheap OBDII reader. And care to share the link where a $28 ELM reader and a speedo swap out can magically rewind this odometer. I would love to know how they do it with such basic tools when I cant even do it with our $3,000 scan tool… (I can sync, but not rewind.)

                                  It had an odometer reading stored 4 years ago @ 127,000km, but the car is only a few years old??? This story just keeps getting more convoluted the longer it goes on.

                                  That being said, I very much doubt that winding this particular car back 28,000km would net a profit of $10,000 (unless it's a $300,000 GT40). Maybe winding it back from 250,000 to 38,000 might have some benefit, bit not from 127k to 99k…

                                  And for the record, most Fords are exclusive to Ford.

                                  •  

                                    @pegaxs: I don't care what you have to say, whether you are dealer, mechanic etc or not. You don't have to believe me. That's fine.
                                    I have my proof and I'm leaving it that.
                                    Obviously I've touched a nerve for some reason.

                                    I won't name the vehicle or dealer so unfortunately my information will be abstract.

                                    Any odometer tampering in my view is fraud, I don't care if it is 5kms or 50K Kms, or if it devalues by 20c. Especially if you selling this and are a registered LMCT/MD etc. I don't care if the sellers mother tampered with the car…. the cat or dog before the car was traded at the dealership…

                                    So I found out that this car has tampered with and have proof. That's it. I have lost all trust in it. Unless they come clean, then it's dodgy.
                                    We can go back and forth trying to justify a system whether it is genuine of not, however this crappy PPSR worked for me.
                                    You can use examples from your experiences to justify your point, but then it's your point against mine.

                                    I am sure that there are many genuine honest sellers out there, but then my experience gave me a good life learning lesson.

                                    No point continuing with this and wasting each other's time

                                    •  

                                      @vinni9284:

                                      You don't have to believe me

                                      I dont… You are being deliberately vague to either obfuscate the story or because you are trying to make it up as you go along.

                                      You keep throwing out your "evidence" of this and then provide nothing to back it up. Post the photos, post the details, post the report, post the VIN, hell, you wont even post the model of vehicle to "protect the dealer". The same dealer committing fraud??

                                      You accuse a dealer of committing fraud but you wont name and shame them and you are so bent out of shape about it that you admitted to stalking the dealer and continuing to chase the car down. Why not just report it to the police if your evidence is so overwhelming? Have you reported this to your states or the state the car now resides in automotive governing body?

                                      You wont even post a link to this informative website that shows that a $28 ELM reader can be used to wind back odometers… What are we supposed to think? You would have had more luck convincing people with "Just trust me, ok?". So, keep digging.

                                      So I found out that this car has tampered with and have proof.

                                      You have no proof that the dealership wound back the odometer. You have an over priced history report that cant validate where it got its possibly tainted information from (could well have been 27,000km 4 years ago, and entered incorrectly). It's just a very expensive PPSR report. $2 of it for the PPSR report and $35 for guess work.

                                      And it's not up to me to prove anything, you're the one makng the wild claims of fraud. I have explained why it's improbable and backed it up with reasons, and examples. IE: Cars can be owned for decades and NEVER go anywhere near a place that may or may not report anything to this magical odometer database, and any data that is in some magical database could easily be incorrect as it is probably scraped from searching the internet sales pages.

                                      The only thing here that is a waste of time is paying $37 for a report that is worthless and possibly misleading, when the same, accurate part of the report can be had for $35 less.

                                      You just sound like a tyre kicking, time waster looking to lowball a dealer into selling you a car for much less than it's worth…. $10k increase in value over being wound back 28k… pull the other one.

                                      If it looks like bullshit, sounds like bullshit, chances are….

                                      • -1 vote

                                        @pegaxs: My point to everyone out there, if you are going to buy a car, do an external mechanical inspection and conduct a comprehensive PPSR check.
                                        That's my whole point from the beginning, which obviously touched a nerve in some people

                                        Just to let you know. My next car I'll be paying $37 for a PPSR check!
                                        … and if that car is no good, I'll pay another $37 for another PPSR check! Oh crap, I've spent $80!

                                        • +2 votes

                                          @vinni9284: And my point to everyone out there is that overpaying by $35 for your next PPSR check for this mystery "odometer" check, it like trying to justify the purchase in the hope that they can find this needle in the hay stack.

                                          I'm not saying don't pay for it, I am sure that the sites owner appreciate yours and others gullibility and entrusting their site to provide you with data that they cant verify as being accurate and may just very well be misleading. The mere fact that it is named exactly the same as the official government site, minus the .gov and replaced with .com suggests to me that they are out to deliberately mislead people into thinking that they are a legitimate government website.

                                          I, for one, will be paying the $2 and saving my $35 and just do the common sense checks I outlined above.

                          •  

                            @pegaxs: Why do you think this would be as inaccurate as you state? It’s done on a yearly basis (if registered continuously). Any inconsistencies like the odometer reading going backwards would be easily seen in the check. The kilometres are logged with each state’s respective road authority, why would this be corruptible?

                            •  

                              @Jimboid:

                              Why do you think this would be as inaccurate as you state?

                              Did you not read any of it?

                              People at the RMS don't have access to this data (if it even exists or they are lying). There seems to be no requirement to report this data by dealers, mechanics or owners. In most states, yearly RWC's are not compulsory and a car may go for years (even decades) before it is sold and requires a RWC, and even then, may not require the entry of odometer readings, including NSW for the first 5 years of that vehicles ownership. Last time I transferred a car into my name at the RMS I did not have to enter an odometer reading…

                              The data could be corrupted because if it is just scraped off sales websites, it's only as accurate as the person who input the data. Same with a RWC. They input 123,456km instead of 12,345km for example.

                              They could be farming the data from their own users. Last time this vehicle was queried on this site, it was queried at 127,847km. This could have just been a random number the last person who searched used and now it's set in data and giving a false flag because a new user puts in the actual and it comes back as "tampered odometer".

                              Added to this, the difference in state RWC systems would make it a nightmare for clean, reliable data. The PPSR is a national database that is uniform, the odometer system is not. Some states are every year for RWC, some are never, some are only on sale of vehicle. There is no uniformity across all states like there is for PPSR and WOVR searches.

                              Added to this is that there are no cross checks done. If a car does have a yearly RWC and the next year it has a lower reading, why is it not flagged for investigation or a letter sent out asking the owner to confirm the reading? Anything? Any check or balance in the system?

                              I repair a lot of motorcycles in my spare time, and a great majority of them have smashed dash clusters I have to replace. Some with new 0km displays, some with more and some with less km than the original, and I have NEVER had anyone come and complain to me that one of these bikes has been wound back or turned up later in any searches. I have also never been required to report this to anyone.

                              the odometer reading going backwards would be easily seen in the check

                              Not if the data a: doesn't exist in the first place or b: was input incorrectly, as there is no checks and balances to assure data is accurately maintained.

                              The problem is, people would not bother winding back 28,000 on a car with only 127,000km on it. It's pointless and not worth the hassle to maybe pick up maybe an extra few dollars. Most common wind backs would be done on much older cars with a lot more km, to wind hundreds of thousands of km off them (think ex-taxi). This could double or triple the price of the vehicle. The other things here is that it would be done prior to sale and RWC and would be on a car that most certainly had a long ownership time, 10 or so years, where it would NEVER have seen a RWC in most states, so there would be NO data on that vehicle AT ALL.

                              The kilometres are logged with each state’s respective road authority

                              When? If I live in Victoria for example, I can buy a car, brand new, and own it for 15 years. At what point in that 15 years was I required to submit my odometer reading? Who collects this data? Who makes sure the data is accurate? What checks and balances are done to make sure this data is up to date and accurate? There is no mandatory reporting that owners have to do each year, and it even seems that RWC stations also treat this as "optional".

                              So, like I said above, there is a small chance that some of their data is legitimate, but of all the vehicles in Australia, they may have the legitimate odometer reading for about 0.001% of all available vehicles.

                              If you want to go ahead an pay an extra $35 for data that may or may not be there, or you have no idea how they got this data or how reliable/accurate it is, then be my guest. I'm just letting people know that there is a really really high probability that it is a wasted $35 for data that could be made up, incorrect, incomplete or just outright garbage.

                              •  

                                @pegaxs:

                                At what point in that 15 years was I required to submit my odometer reading? Who collects this data? Who makes sure the data is accurate? What checks and balances are done to make sure this data is up to date and accurate? There is no mandatory reporting that owners have to do each year, and it even seems that RWC stations also treat this as "optional".

                                Hmm, maybe dealerships and independent mechanics record all this info? Isn't that why they need your odomoeter reading each service besides to fill in your logbook? Of course what they do with this info, whether they send it to a centralised server that has all other data of other cars of their odometers readings, I have no idea since I don't work in a dealership or at an independent mechanic place.

                                Smash repairs and paint workshops also do this too, I wanted to get my car resprayed and they basically wanted a full run through of my personal details and the car's details, some of which I think weren't relevant or would be required, such as address - why would they need my address if they're not gonna post anything to it??? Why do they need the vehicles VIN and rego numbers if all I need is to respray? How does not having them affect the ability to repaint the car? I don't understand…. They also needed a photograph of my driver's license too, um why do you need that just to paint a car? I may as well just learn how to respray myself if I need to go through this much hassle - thought it was as easy as quote for price, let them inspect the car, if happy with quote then pay them, let them have the car for a bit whilst they respray it and then come back and pick it up and that's it, nope, it was more than that…anyways…

                                …actually, I could ask my work experience place to see if they do just this and see what they say….hmmmmmmmmmm…will report back tomorrow if any news…

                                •  

                                  @Zachary:

                                  Hmm, maybe dealerships and independent mechanics record all this info?

                                  They probably do, but I doubt that there is any legal or other requirement to submit this information to a central data pool. And no, the reason they need your odometer is to work out what service you require, so they can make sure on the day that all your parts are in stock, picked and ready.

                                  Smash repairs and paint workshops also do this too

                                  I also doubt this is for the benefit of this mystical centralised odometer tracking database. This would be more to do with tracking warranty. If you have a car painted and they warrant it for 12 months or 30,000km and you go out and do 45,000km in 10 months road tripping Australia, how would they know if they didn't record this data. I highly doubt that they rely on this magical national repository of odometer readings…

                                  I also know that paint shops are under pretty heavy laws about recording what comes and goes and have often seen the police doing random spot checks. So they would need the VIN, rego and your details to make sure that you are not trying to change the colour of a stolen car, or that you are not getting the damage repaired to your front bumper where you ran over grandma at the pedestrian crossing…

                                  •  

                                    @pegaxs:

                                    This would be more to do with tracking warranty. If you have a car painted and they warrant it for 12 months or 30,000km and you go out and do 45,000km in 10 months road tripping Australia, how would they know if they didn't record this data.

                                    What possible warranty could they provide on a paintjob? That the paint won't suddenly fade off, clear coat peeling off, bubbling of pain surface and sun damage? Aren't all that wear and tear? I don't believe warranty covers wear and tear…..or at least your general run of the mill warranties anyways….unless it's a guarantee type where they state the paintjob guarantees that it should still look brand new as if resprayed for 5 years - assuming that you've been giving it a weekly car wash and wax.

                                    I also know that paint shops are under pretty heavy laws about recording what comes and goes and have often seen the police doing random spot checks. So they would need the VIN, rego and your details to make sure that you are not trying to change the colour of a stolen car, or that you are not getting the damage repaired to your front bumper where you ran over grandma at the pedestrian crossing…

                                    Well they didn't tell me any of this….

                                •  

                                  @Zachary:

                                  …actually, I could ask my work experience place to see if they do just this and see what they say….hmmmmmmmmmm…will report back tomorrow if any news…

                                  So, I've gathered that the odometer readings they take is just for their records and for warranty purposes and for sticking in the next service stickers and that's it. There is no national database they submit to to report all serviced cars so that the database logs every single car's odometer reading.

                                  Apparently, you might be able to get historical odometer reading from the Department of Transport (DOT) if you ask and that's assuming they've recorded down the reading, since this figure is ALWAYS present whenever someone sells a car and transfers their registration to the next guy. Not sure if you have to pay to get this information or not for your car though.

                                  From there, you might be able to tell if the odometer's been wind back or not….assuming the reading doesn't go before the reading they had before purchasing the car. For example they bought the car when it was 200k, it would obviously look suspicious if they suddenly then sell the car to me for 190k….which of course I wouldn't know until I ask DOT to release that information…

                                  Someone also mentioned REVS check but that's been made redundant and combined with PPSR, which apparently is suppose to reveal the odometer but it doesn't. Apparently there are different levels of PPSR, depending on how much you pay and I"m guessing the 35$ one that guy paid for shows a false odometer reading that cannot be verified at all…since no such centralised database exist UNLESS you count the source from DOT since they record down every car purchase and sale and would probably have a national database where other state DOT gather for information….?

                                  I guess one way to solve this problem is just buy brand new with 0 odometer reading so you have full history of the car until its death or your death, and ignore private and 2nd hand or used dealers.

                                  Probably related, but I saw a 2014 corolla with only like 800kms on it. True or fake, you reckon? The car was basically filled with cobwebs and spiders everywhere when it rocked up to the workshop.

                                  •  

                                    @Zachary: Warranty and guarantee are one in the same thing. They may guarantee the paint to be defect free for 5 years via a warranty… The claim is the guarantee, the coverage if it doesn't work is the warranty.

                                    And they would have a warranty that would state that they guarantee that their work would be free from defects, not free from being scratched off by a run away trolley…

                                    As for the odometer bullshit;

                                    And as I said above multiple times already, it's not that a database doesn't exist, it's just that any information in it is most probably useless, missing, inaccurate, corrupted, out of date, unexplainable, misleading or any other number of issues.

                                    The problem is that there is no regular requirement to collect or submit this odometer data. There is no checks or balances to make sure the data is even accurate. There is no transparency on where they obtained the data or if it was in fact correct at the time of collection. They could be posting a lot of false positives and I can tell you, if I knew the history of my vehicle and this site reported that it had a tampered odometer and cost me value on my vehicle, I would certainly take it up with a lawyer. I am surprised that this site is still in business…

                                    As for your Corolla, possible, but not probable. A grandmother may have bought it to do the shopping and passed away a month later and there was a huge legal dispute over her assets or it just didn't get found for 6 years. Possible… Again, use the steps I outlined above to determine its true usage. If it fails any of these, then that is a more accurate indication of if it was wound back or not compared to using a dodgy website that charges you $35 extra for data you don't know where the hell they got it from.

                                    •  

                                      @pegaxs:

                                      Warranty and guarantee are one in the same thing. They may guarantee the paint to be defect free for 5 years via a warranty… The claim is the guarantee, the coverage if it doesn't work is the warranty.

                                      Huh, yes that would make sense…didn't see it that way.

                                      As for the odometer bullshit;

                                      And as I said above multiple times already, it's not that a database doesn't exist, it's just that any information in it is most probably useless, missing, inaccurate, corrupted, out of date, unexplainable, misleading or any other number of issues.

                                      The problem is that there is no regular requirement to collect or submit this odometer data. There is no checks or balances to make sure the data is even accurate. There is no transparency on where they obtained the data or if it was in fact correct at the time of collection.

                                      You're right, I remember the transfer form for my car and the box where it said to enter the odometer reading and it was empty or zero when it was supposed to be 65666 at the time of purchase, so even if DOT got that info it's obviously incorrect and they have not yet asked me to give them the real reading since….that is if they wanted to keep their database of odometer readings as accurate as possible from their end, only error being user enter error anyways….

                                      Well then, I guess nevermind about going to DOT to seek historical odometer readings that could well all be zero'd or not recorded down or inaccurate, I take all that back….

                                      So now, what is the use of odometer as a selling point then if it can be forged and can never be verified? Sure lower odometer means there would be less issues with the car….but if a 500k reading and the car's engine and transmission has been replaced to brand new ones because the old ones broke or something, odometer should effectively be equivalent to 0, right? I guess in this case just test drive the vehicle (so the car at least runs and drives well and not just for show…) and maybe go through your own checklist of things you want from it or and have a mechanical preinspection prior to purchase? And make sure to have extended warranty if the original manufacturer's warranty is over?

                                      They could be posting a lot of false positives and I can tell you, if I knew the history of my vehicle and this site reported that it had a tampered odometer and cost me value on my vehicle, I would certainly take it up with a lawyer. I am surprised that this site is still in business…

                                      Do you have a brand new car you purchased and can test with that site to see what it says? I would do it myself but I've never had a brand new car nor have a car that I know the full history on right from when I bought it brand new with 0 on the odometer read or at least less than 50kms on the clock to now to see what it reckons my car's has so far.

                                      • Yeah, stop putting your faith into bullshit websites that have no transparency or verifiable accuracy to their claims.
                                        • Secondly, look at the vehicle and use some common sense. A wind back of 30,000 is hardly worth doing for anyone, not to mention that it isn't easy to do as it was 30 years ago. It's hardly worth it on, for example, a 2016MY car unless it is an ex-Taxi with 400,000km on it. Rolling back 28,000km is pointless.
                                        • Look for other tell tales, like the condition/wear of the plastics, door trims, gear shifter, steering wheel, seats, carpet wear, foot pedals. You can wind a speedo back, but then you also have to replace all of these things to match it.
                                        • Does it make sense? Is it a 20yo car with 72,000km (3,600km/year seems a bit too low). If it has books, are all the stamps and writing in the service book made with the same pen and stamp and look like it was filled out on the same day. Pens change, stamps change, dealers change, staff change, stamp ink changes over 20 years. A first service stamp from 2001 should not look like a 70,000km service stamp from 2019.
                                        • If a sales person starts making excuses, walk away. Honest cars will speak for themselves. Everything will be on hand and available. If it's "Oh well, that book is at head office in another state…" walk.

                                      I guess they'd have to be pretty good to make an old car with high kms look brand new with low or zero kms on the clock just to have a higher resale value. They'd have to have a collection of different stamps from different years and different coloured pens or pencils….hahaha Also,apparently winding back kms is as easy as replacing the ECU, clusterboard or and using the scan tool to reset the clock or at least that's what I've been told anyways for newer cars…. There are specialised places that do this for you if you're having trouble, but I'm guessing they would need a reasonable reason to change the clock to 0 or at least lower the clock since it's (apparently) illegal.

                                      •  

                                        @Zachary:

                                        if a 500k reading and the car's engine and transmission has been replaced to brand new ones because the old ones broke or something, odometer should effectively be equivalent to 0, right?

                                        Yes. No. Both. Mileage isn't the only measure of condition. Time, exposure, temperature-cycle and general care (like cleaning/washing) affect other things. Wires, plugs and rubber parts harden and perish over time.

                                        Some used car ads might say 200K on odo, but reco engine fitted that had 40K before rebuild.
                                        In your example of a new engine/tranny, the chassis (and rest of driveline if not refreshed) has covered the 500K and pegaxs' point is wear will show in these areas.
                                        But there are many hidden parts. Some you can only see by hoisting at minimum.

                                        For the visible stuff, non-OEM spares can be had very cheaply from China for things like gearknobs, pedal pads, buttons and most everything else. A dealer buying in bulk — say, if they "specialise" in a certain brand or model — will save even more.

                              • +1 vote

                                @pegaxs:

                                The problem is, people would not bother winding back 28,000 on a car with only 127,000km on it. It's pointless and not worth the hassle to maybe pick up maybe an extra few dollars.

                                You're not in sales then.

                                Don't underestimate the brag potential of claiming a vehicle has done "Under 100,000 km! in a depressed used car market. It's akin to pricing games where human psychology comes into play, eg $3.99.

                                Seems like a big hassle? Not if it's plug and play. Much easier than the good old days of cluster removal and misaligned numbers, wouldn't you say?

                                I too would like to see this technique mentioned by Vinnie. Perhaps it's dark-webbish?

                                • +1 vote

                                  @Speckled Jim: http://www.clustermods.com/

                                  This site is just a representation of how you can easily bring your dash and it'll be changed/re-programmed.
                                  I'm not saying that this site does illegal dash mods.
                                  The car purchased (and returned) was a Ford FPV 2009 model

                                  •  

                                    @vinni9284: Well thanks. It's possible but they won't do it to defraud potential buyers. The mere fact it's possible opens the door to dodgy sellers also having the knowledge. Would love to know the hardware involved. Sounds a bit beyond my ELM unit.

                                    My thoughts on the Yaris topic was initially one of rebirthing. Nobody has mentioned that. Thought I'd put it out there.

                                    • -1 vote

                                      @Speckled Jim:

                                      Sounds a bit beyond my ELM unit

                                      Possibly not.

                                      It is just probably a cracked software (Ford IDS cracked) on the PC.
                                      The Ford IDS software can be downloaded with a subscription that you pay. But if you can crack the software, then you can use all the functionalities as a Ford Service Garage level.

                                      The ELM 327 is just a programmable chip/emulator that interfaces with the OBD2 interface

                                      ELM327 OBD2 - with HS/MS switch to USB PC interface
                                      It's just having the right hardware and software combo for that particular car.

                                      Edit: There a lot a ads in Facebook that do Ford ICC reprogramming etc .. for only $70. It is only limited to ICC?

                                      These $3K Snap On Tools & up OBD2 scanners have more functionality than a cheaper one, but it may lack certain (or it's locked) functionalities and keep a database for many varieties of cars.
                                      Don't forget that manufacturers would like to keep their proprietary machinery exclusive so you can spend on them.

                                      I am very confident that a $8K SnapOn scanner will still not compete with the Ford IDS scanner for a Ford and may not flag a cluster removal.

                                      Cheers

                                •  

                                  @Speckled Jim:

                                  You're not in sales then.

                                  I was, and yes, I get that the magical 100,000km number can be significant to some people, but in this day and age of cars easily reaching up to 300,000 without much issue, it isn't as much of a sales pitch as it was back when cars would clunk out and die at 120,000.

                                  Even so, it would hardly be worth it for most dealers, especially one that is large enough to have interstate branches like @vinnie is suggesting. It would not be worth their time or the potential fines involved if they are as easily caught as what @vinnie is suggesting (who still wont name and shame nor report this fraud to any appropriate authority.)

                                  if it's plug and play

                                  I have no doubt that it is easy to do with the right tools and editing software, but not via a $28 ELM reader. ELM readers generally are just that, readers. They usually only talk to the engine ECU to get codes and live data. What they don't usually talk to are main body ECU's or dash clusters.

                                  I too would like to see this technique mentioned by Vinnie.

                                  Apparently that's top secret, because he doesn't want to get the dealer into trouble… also see: bullshit. (Even the site he did post says in big, bold letters is "we do not ‘Wind Back Odometers’".)

                                  • -1 vote

                                    @pegaxs:

                                    $28 ELM reader. ELM readers generally are just that, readers.

                                    No they don't (HS/MS switch)

                                    What they don't usually talk to are main body ECU's or dash clusters.

                                    How about the Ford BCM? You forgot that!

                                    Well they're plenty of "FartBook" ads the talk about Ford ICC error code programming. You think they whip out a $10K scanner?

                                    who still wont name and shame nor report this fraud to any appropriate authority.)

                                    I may. I am hesitant as I have received a refund. However I still have proof if I want to pursue

                                    Even the site he did post says in big, bold letters is "we do not ‘Wind Back Odometers’".)

                                    Well i used this site as reference to prove how easy it is to reprogram clusters. Obviously, they have to right equipment to do it. So it's attainable.

                                    • +1 vote

                                      @vinni9284: Okay but…Ford.
                                      You're betting people will care about a hi-po 4-door Falcon derivative when there's Mustangs-a-plenty? Fair enough if you think it's worth investing in what could become a high-yield-
                                      [shrug] Your money.

                                      Last Ford I owned was actually a Mazda slapped together at Homebush.
                                      But that's another story.

                                      • -1 vote

                                        @Speckled Jim: Lol fair enough.
                                        I guess my experience was with a Ford however the crux of the story was odometer tampering and a PPSR check flagging this.
                                        But it may happen to any car.
                                        Cheers

                                    •  

                                      @vinni9284:

                                      No they don't

                                      Um, yeah they are. Why would we buy a $3,000+ scan tool if I can use a $28 ELM reader and a mobile phone…

                                      Have the Ford BCM?

                                      Main body ECU, aka: BCM, BECM, BEM, etc, etc… Sorry I didn't use Ford's correct acronym.

                                      talk about Ford ICC error code

                                      ICC programming =/= reprogram cluster odometer reading.

                                      I may.

                                      If you have so much evidence and your refund, then do it. Why would you protect this dodgy dealer?? Hell, send me a PM and post me the details and I'll report them if what you have is that overwhelming and you wanted to not get involved. Christ, just link me to the car in questions and I'll do all the leg work. I'll even pay the $37 myself to get this "overwhelming evidence". If the dealer stands to make $10,000 more out of it, they need to be reported for fraud…

                                      Or don't, because you cant… InB4: But the car has now been sold/cant find it/not fair on next owner/I don't want the dealer to sue me/mum says I have to get off the computer now…

              •  

                @bargaingod123: You can buy a service book for many brands from the spare parts department. Not sure about toyota specifically though.

                •  

                  @dassaur: Yeah, I was told by the Chatswood dealership the same thing and was told it will take some time as they are shipped from Japan. This really raised the question of why the dealer sold me this claims that they can not arrange it for this particular. After all, I am happy to buy one (with company money), but there sounds to be something wrong with the car doesn't it?

                  •  

                    @bargaingod123: Did you ask why the service manual was missing? In any event there wouldnt be anythign recorded in it anyway… it's only done 2.5K km!

                    The service manual wouldnt indicate something mechanically wrong with the car. If you mean perhaps stolen or likewise, then that's a different issue, and if that's the case I understand your suspicion

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