Any reason to buy a Tesla over a Hyundai Ioniq?

cannedhams on 03/07/2020 - 10:25

Well lads, I'm getting older and I don't get around much anymore. Can't tell you the last time I drove more than 200 kilometres and my car is just a runabout for the most part. Plus going to the servo and bantering with the grease monkeys seems like such a minor inconvenience. And frankly my hybrid car just isn't virtue signalling enough for my middle class liberal sensibilities. So I suppose its time I finally surrender my last remaining red blood cell and buy an electric car. Amiright ladies?

I know a couple of people who have the Hyundai Ionic and quite a few more who have a Tesla. Now I am a tosspot but I am also on Ozbargain so the price point is still important to me. The Ioniq has a range of 200ks and costs $45K. The Tesla has a range of 300ks and is 70K. On paper, I'd favour the Ionic.

The people with Ionics swear up and down its a fantastic car, efficient, apart from change the tyres every couple of years there is basically no maintenance. But the people with Teslas say no way, Tesla is the market leader, there's so much new tech in a Tesla, an Ioniq is just a Korean dogbox with a battery. Have you seen Tesla's share price? Market cap Blah blah.

My impression is that Tesla users have more than a whiff of Apple sheep mentality about them. The iphone of cars. They always seem to follow Elon Musk on twitter for some reason. And lets face it, Hyundai is a major maker and isnt going anywhere.

So Im probably tending towards the Ioniq. But am I missing something?

Automotive Hyundai Tesla Inc

Comments

  • oscargamer on 03/07/2020 - 10:32
    +1

    Which do you prefer the look of?

    Which did you prefer on the test drives you've done?

    • cannedhams on 03/07/2020 - 10:37
      +14

      I suppose the Tesla has better styling but thats not enough to get me to pay more for it.

      Havent done any test drives yet, but have read a few reviews and to be frank, ride quality is not a big issue for me, as long as it gets me where I want to go thats all I need.

      • oscargamer on 03/07/2020 - 10:43
        +51

        I think you have already answered your own question then…..

        What colour Ioniq are you ordering?

        • netjock on 03/07/2020 - 11:14
          +11

          What colour Ioniq are you ordering?

          Red. Goes faster.

        • cannedhams on 04/07/2020 - 15:41
          +2

          White of course. Its hip to be square, duh-duh, na-na-na-nah

          • [Deactivated] on 05/07/2020 - 18:39

            @cannedhams: Hopefully white cars will soon be banned as they're a symbol of white male privilege.

            • Yawhae on 07/07/2020 - 08:09
              +5

              @[Deactivated]: I agree. Also an internal combustion engine should be able to call its self electric if it wants to.

      • sputmayer on 07/07/2020 - 00:00
        +4

        Do test drive the Tesla. I didn't think much of it either but then my friend bought a model 3, I think he paid 110k for it. I made a lot of fun of him and his tesla but then the test drive did blow me away, The pickup, console, the feature set etc. I reckon most of the other car companies are 10 years behind Tesla in innovation.

  • bdl on 03/07/2020 - 10:36
    +31

    Tesla is also the market leader in the widest panel gaps.

    Since you are not using your car much any more, you want it to be no hassles and not have to worry about it when you're not using it. Considering that, definitely go with the Hyundai as they've been building cars for a lot longer. Tesla's improving fast but still not at the consistent quality level of Hyundai. Last thing you want is a Friday afternoon Tesla special, when the car causes you more hassles than it's worth over time.

    Also check out the Hyundai Kona (electric) too for another option.

    You know when Toyota gets scared of the Korean car manufacturers that they must be doing something right :)

    • Brian McGee on 03/07/2020 - 10:45
      +5

      +1 for the Kona electric, has a range of up to 400km, so 2 weeks between fill ups.

    • DannyC on 03/07/2020 - 10:55
      +5

      As you say Hyundai have been building cars for a long time. The QC of Tesla is pretty bad, they are improving but they have a long way to go. It is a nice car though, the styling is very sleek. Uncle owns the Model 3 and it has had a number of issues since ownership. He's got the Long Range model and that cost nearly $90k so compared to the IONIQ it is a different beast in terms of cost.

      • bdl on 03/07/2020 - 11:02

        I reckon the OP seems like the kind of person who cbf waiting for Tesla's QC to improve. OP just wants something that works when they want it to, and sits quietly in the garage at other times :)

        • netjock on 03/07/2020 - 11:13
          +4

          sits quietly in the garage at other times

          My petrol car does that too. Anyone else got a car that get up to no good in the garage?

          • Euphemistic on 03/07/2020 - 12:42
            +26

            @netjock: Mine pees on the floor fairly often.

          • ProlapsedHeinous on 04/07/2020 - 22:08
            +3

            @netjock: Caught mine racking lines in the garage.

          • MITM on 06/07/2020 - 14:29
            +2

            @netjock: Well, my Tesla will be allowed to go out at night clubbing/Ubering for me while I sleep before returning to the garage in the morning (after a detour to Froggys for a detail)

            • netjock on 06/07/2020 - 14:47

              @MITM: Pity it doesn't dress you up in PPE because PPE is the biggest game in town right now.

    • netjock on 03/07/2020 - 11:16

      Tesla is also the market leader in the widest panel gaps.

      If they can sell gap for those prices I want to find out how they can get people to buy it. I was a sucker for a $1k colour inkjet printers when they came out. Got sucked in for a $1k coloured laser printer too. Never again.

    • This Guy on 04/07/2020 - 23:41

      Considering that, definitely go with the Hyundai as they've been building cars for a lot longer.

      You might need to look in to Hyundai a little bit more. Didn't they need to recall (and replace) a few lines of petrol engines a few years back because spurs were occasionally killing them early even when serviced properly? Didn't the Korean government step in a little while later when they were having issues with a diesel hose leaking? Isn't there reports of a similar issue now affecting their petrol engines? And didn't I read something recently about their older break controllers starting to catch fire?

      Don't get me wrong, OP should by a Hyundai. I am only arguing against buying something because it's manufacturer has been making stuff in the same field for 80 years.

      • Jackson on 06/07/2020 - 10:08
        +5

        I've only had one Hyundai, and it is one that has popped up on at least one youtube most reliable list, but it's done 225k kms without developing a major fault and requiring no mechanical parts aside from the ones that wear (trim and paint is pretty thrashed though), and I have self serviced for at least the last 75k. I think all manufacturers have some issues, but Hyundai has a pretty good reputation in Australia with providing long warranty and fixing issues for customers.

        Having said that, I'm also going to disagree with you and say buy the tesla. It goes against everything I would tell people about ICE cars, I wouldn't buy American over Asian, I would look for higher quality over features, etc. however I really believe these Teslas are future classics. If he's planning on keeping the car for good not only will he benefit from the myriad of additional features listed but the car will hold it's value much more

        • This Guy on 08/07/2020 - 00:01

          Hyundai has a pretty good reputation in Australia with providing long warranty and fixing issues for customers.

          Yes. HMG has an excellent reputation in Australia but most of that is luck that their customer base largely doesn't read automotive journalism and they are seen as too boring for mainstream press.

          That last issue was literally their cars catching on fire. (2020) (2019) (2018) Remember what that did for 4x4 enthusiast brands Ford and Jeep?

          • Jackson on 08/07/2020 - 11:41
            +1

            @This Guy: I'm guessing the thing that's also missing from Hyundai is that their warranty and service people don't just blatantly shaft customers like Jeep and potentially Ford. That would be the common factor here. Jeep's issues at least are well documented.

            • This Guy on 08/07/2020 - 15:22

              @Jackson: Hyundai's initial engine recall program took over two years to recall all affected engines. It became news because owners claimed the engines were not being warranted.

              You will notice down the bottom of that wiki that Asia Pacific engines were not affected. Car Advice disagrees

              Here is a quote about a later engine recall in the US:

              "This recall raises the question of whether we are even beyond the tip of the iceberg with these non-crash fires with both of these manufacturers," Levine said. "How many times are we going to hear from either Hyundai or Kia that these circumstances are unique to a particular model and then have another recall or fire situation announced weeks or months later?" - Jason Levine, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety

              Why is it so negative? The scope, potentially 3000 fires over 3 million vehicles or ~ 0.1%

              Hyundai sufferers issues just like every other brand. Hyundai is extremely lucking these issues don't find traction with their client base.

              • Jackson on 08/07/2020 - 15:30
                +1

                @This Guy: I can't say I've done an analysis, but the numbers of Jeep owners getting the short straw must far outweigh the numbers of Hyundai owners. From my anecdotal evidence, 3 from 3 Jeep owners I know had major issues with their car, basically ending up selling them or trading them in for different models under no other options from Jeep dealers.

                I know dozens of Hyundai and Kia owners, and the last one I heard complain was talking about a late 90's Sonata, one of only 2 (an even older Excel used to be a source of complaints for a friend). This is probably in line with the 0.1%, which realisitically isn't that horrible a stat. I'm sure every company has issues, but when every second owner of a brand has a problem it's more about the attitude displayed by the dealers than anyone else. It's sad also that some of my friends who bought Focuses only to have transmission issues later are actually embarrased about talking about their issues due to the barrel they were over.

                • This Guy on 08/07/2020 - 15:52
                  +1

                  @Jackson: 100%. But Jeep is part of FCA and most of FCA's vehicle's don't catch fire. As far as I know, across their fleet FCA's failures are in line with the competition, and definitely not 0.1%

                  FCA has very little money in this market to go above and beyond (or what many would argue, comply with ACL). They support a very large range of vehicles here all with single percentage or less penetration. This is made worse here with their ongoing PSA Group merger.

                  If you friend still has their power shift Ford, Ford was meant to reach out a few years back to offer well above market value buy backs for affected (read all) power shift vehicles.

                  The attitude of dealers is usually far better than most manufactures. Manufacturer's clients are the dealerships, not the public. Manufacturers make the dealerships out to be the bad guys just like some sales people make their manager's out to be the bad guys. It's a marketing tactic to shift the unpleasant aspects of commerce to a brand less boggy man so the two most valuable brands in the sale of a new car, the manufacturer and the sales person, can maintain trust while acting on behalf of their employer and the shareholders.

                  The biggest thing to remember that what one representative says to a client is often completely different to what they will say to a team member in a different department or business.

    • Sutra on 06/07/2020 - 22:35

      I'm out of the loop about cars in general.
      Why did Toyota do?

      • ItsMeAgro on 07/07/2020 - 15:24
        +1

        Why did Toyota do?

        Not bother getting into FEV for ages, thinking hybrids were the future?

        • Morven on 07/07/2020 - 16:15
          +2

          Since early 2018, Toyota has been the major investor in Orocobre, a major Australian-owned lithium miner. They'll likely hurtle down the FEV track now with this source of battery lithium.

    • R4 on 07/07/2020 - 14:32

      Also, unless they've recently upped their game, their painting standards are way, way below par - crap on any car but doubly so when you're paying an ultra-premium for a Tesla.

      There's vidoes on Youtube about this.

  • GG57 on 03/07/2020 - 10:45
    +25

    If it were me, I'd go with the Hyundai.
    But I'm an android person.

    • hashtagbargain on 03/07/2020 - 10:59
      +14

      In this case I’d go with the Hyundai too. And I’m an Apple person.

      Ps: op I enjoyed reading your post. You’ve got a great style of saying things.

      • KeplersLaws on 03/07/2020 - 13:00
        +4

        I agree on both fronts. Much like the decent experience I've had with apple in service, I've had similar parallels with Hyundai in servicing and warranty

    • Twodogs on 08/07/2020 - 13:01
      +1

      If it were me i'd go with the Tesla.
      But i'm an android.

  • netjock on 03/07/2020 - 10:50
    +7

    Can't tell you the last time I drove more than 200 kilometres and my car is just a runabout for the most part

    Just buy a $20k car. You've got $20k to pay for the inconvenience of servicing. If you keep it for 20 years then it is $1k per year for 1 day a year.

    Not sure how many kilometers you do a year. If less than 10,000 kms a normal car might be the go. Even a Carolla Hybrid.

    • oscargamer on 03/07/2020 - 11:04
      +9

      A Carolla?

      Is that a bastard hybrid of car, covid and corolla?

      • netjock on 03/07/2020 - 11:11
        +1

        Corolla Hybrid.

      • netjock on 03/07/2020 - 11:11
        +1

        Corolla

      • exulted on 04/07/2020 - 07:51
        +5

        It's a Corolla with Cancer

  • [Deactivated] on 03/07/2020 - 11:05
    +12

    The Tesla is obviously a much better car, but if the Hyundai meets your needs then save the money. Personally I'd get the Kona over the Ioniq though; not much more money, much bigger battery and much better range. Remember, range is variable. On a cold winter day with heavy rain, the Ioniq wont do 200km. Maybe 120km.

    The biggest differences to the Tesla are:
    Range
    Performance
    Luxury
    Fast charging
    Fast charging network
    handling
    Autopilot (and full self driving which you car will be equipped with, but not activated, if you're getting older, the car will drive itself in short order).
    Infotainment (including dash cams, sentry cam, movies, music etc)

    The Hyundai advantages are:
    Cost

    If you get a Kona, it can match the base model 3 on range (maybe even beat it slightly).

    • flametornado on 04/07/2020 - 21:00
      +1

      The kona beats out the model 3 sr+ on range by a massive amount. You can comfortably drive the kona for 450k in one charge, the model 3 does about 350.

      • [Deactivated] on 04/07/2020 - 21:30
        +1

        Not at freeway speeds. I think you're confusing WLTP range vs real world range.

        • flametornado on 05/07/2020 - 13:55
          +2

          450 km is what I get from my kona pretty consistently.

          The odometer right now during winter says near 500km without Ac on.

          Some of my work mates have Teslas and on equivalent drives get about 350 km range.

          Charging a m3 will be must faster than a kona at a fast charger, but in 8k km I haven't used a fast charger once, so I don't really care about fast charge speeds.

      • Jackson on 04/07/2020 - 23:44

        I don't think you can say "comfortably". If you drive sensibly around town maybe, but as soon as you take it on the highway, in cold weather, use the heater, you aren't getting that range

        • [Deactivated] on 04/07/2020 - 23:47
          +1

          Around town range in an EV doesn't matter at all. You're never going to do over 100km in a day around town, and you charge at home at night. The only range that matters is freeway range at freeway speeds. And that's why charing network and charging speed are important.

        • flametornado on 05/07/2020 - 13:56

          I can. I live in the blue mountains, there's no driving around town for me and that is the range I get.

    • Jackson on 04/07/2020 - 23:43
      +2

      Probably add to this resale for the model 3.there are literally line of people that want a Tesla, it will never be like that for a hyundai. Having said that, with the reliability of electric drives, you could keep this car forever

    • Yorkshire-Man on 05/07/2020 - 08:22
      +2

      Except for one key factor, reliability. This company is wayyyyy overvalued…

      https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/24/tesla-lags-auto-industry-in-…

      Driven one, liked it, wouldn't buy it. You are spot on about the iSheep.

    • payless69 on 08/07/2020 - 09:47
      -1

      The model S is crappy in the back, useless as a limo. But S and X are built properly, the newbies are cheap but fare more advanced again. I'd buy a Y15 CRV and chuck in a Comma2 and you can meet them stressed out Tesla drivers while you don;t need to touch the wheel!
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrvO_lHUw6U

      • Twodogs on 08/07/2020 - 13:16
        +1

        Yeah but if you read through the article it states Tesla isn’t officially part of the study because it doesn’t allow J.D. Power access to customer vehicle registration data .

  • DannyC on 03/07/2020 - 11:09
    +2

    And for some reason… people love to "KEY" Teslas…. for some odd reason that is beyond me. Lucky they got Sentry Mode to catch those idiots!

    • netjock on 03/07/2020 - 11:12
      +30

      Tall poppy syndrome. In this country we aspire to be rich but we also despise those who are rich. True story.

      • pegaxs on 03/07/2020 - 11:16
        -2

        It’s probably more to do with the smug arsehole owners image than it does about tall poppy syndrome… I’m sure that Tesla cars don’t get keyed any more than any other brand, but it’s just the fact they catch more people doing it…

        • KeplersLaws on 03/07/2020 - 12:55
          +6

          hello. I don't quite get you.
          on the one hand you're saying Tesla owners get keyed more because they are smug and have a bad image, and somewhat deserve (or at least should expect) it.
          on the other hand, you're merely attributing it to a higher reported incidence because Tesla owners catch keyers better than other owners (maybe because of sentry mode)
          which are you suggesting?

          also, I'd pick the ioniq.

        • smartazz104 on 05/07/2020 - 16:50
          -1

          Nah that's not it, that just sounds like some bullshit reason someone would use to justify keying a car.

  • pegaxs on 03/07/2020 - 11:15
    +16

    Buying a Tesla isn’t so much as buying a car, but buying membership to a cult that comes with a free car.

    I also think it is mandatory to tell as many people as you can that you have a Tesla and to buy as much of the company stock as possible. You will need to start an Instagram account just for your car and get a vanity number plate that mocks everyone else who doesn’t own a Tesla. LOL-OIL. So, if you think talking to your “grease monkey” is a minor inconvenience, imagine having to update your car’s social media accounts on a daily basis…

    And as much as I don’t have much faith in JD Power surveys, that last release for 2020 sure has me laughing about Tesla… :D

    InB4: Claims of prices on used Tesla vehicles only going up. Bringing stock prices into it. Mentioning Elon as a visionary deity. More mentions of stock prices. Telling us all how ICE engines will be obsolete in 3~5 years…

    • netjock on 03/07/2020 - 11:18
      +1

      How about Tesla robo taxi when the software comes out will make it an appreciating asset?

      It will be interesting if once the software does work Tesla won't be raising the prices to capture the benefit. Why sell a car for $80k when you can charge 5x as much if it is a working robo taxi.

      • dhnqt on 05/07/2020 - 07:59
        -1

        You can look at the research about how bad Tesla self driving technology compared to its competitors: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/self-driving-study-naviga…

        Combining with the huge legal barrier of operating self driving taxis, I don't see it's coming in Australia to the next 10 years.

        • netjock on 05/07/2020 - 12:40

          You know it is tongue in cheek comment right?

          Long as there is people drivers and pedestrians on the road full self driving will not happen.

          The unpredictable nature of people, irrational risk taking, drunk walkers. It is like lane assist. It doesn't work if people forgot to paint the lines on the road.

      • Zephyrus on 05/07/2020 - 12:12

        How could it ever be an appreciating asset?

        Tesla will just produce more cars. No share holder is going to be happy with them selling cars that are worth more a year later AND not having any plan to ramp up production.

        Also inb4 Tesla push a software update that bricks your car.

        • netjock on 05/07/2020 - 12:44

          Tongue in cheek comment from me.

          Link to article here

          Robotaxi feature is used to sell the cars now. Whether it is 6 years or 100 years nobody knows but people will get sucked into one thing or another. People's justifications for things are in a league of their own.

          You are right, if they were so confident of robotaxi feature they wouldn't be selling it so cheap now. People just need to think whether the value they are paying for right. You don't want to pay for something that MIGHT not get delivered.

        • pegaxs on 05/07/2020 - 15:51
          +3

          How could it ever be an appreciating asset?

          You must be new here…

          In almost every thread that get posted that involved a mention of Tesla, there is the invariable fanbois that come in and tell everyone how used Tesla vehicles only go up in price.

    • DashCam AKA Rolts on 03/07/2020 - 12:46
      +1

      Made me think of the South Park episode about the Toyonda Pious.
      https://youtu.be/WFn1WEaYY3A

    • Tonyh87 on 04/07/2020 - 10:58
      +1

      Here's a good 'how to be a tesla owner' video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PLxPAwIeL0w

    • Jackson on 04/07/2020 - 23:54

      As if kick-starting the electric car revolution and putting people into space wasn't enough…

    • [Deactivated] on 05/07/2020 - 11:52
      +1

      you know what i hate more than people who drive a tesla is the smug expression of the tesla you tubers. The most offender of all, whats inside. that smug ((profanity)), does nothing other than to brag about how much they are and giving the impression of "get on my level you working class peasant" to its viewers. I enjoy jerry rigs videos as he does great videos but i just can't fathom how can he associate with such a smug count of the whats inside you tubers.

      • pegaxs on 05/07/2020 - 11:57
        +6

        The only Tesla owner I like on YouTube is Rich Rebuilds. I love how he drives the boot into Tesla at any opportunity and gives a much more realistic view of how customers get treated by Tesla.

        • Bid Sniper on 05/07/2020 - 12:35
          +1

          Love Rich, really pisses off fanbois with the doses of reality. Quality channel, love it

      • netjock on 05/07/2020 - 13:02

        Not just Tesla drivers.

        Do we need to all drive Mercs, BMWs and whatever prestige brands? If you want to enjoy luxury you can drive a Toyota live in a big house with all the amenities but then it just isn't mobile billboard for how much money you got.

        Accuracy of the quote “behind every great fortune is an equally great crime”, attributed to Balzac. In our times great individual fortunes are generally generated via the instrument of the business firm. The question then becomes when are firm profits a crime? Firm profits are, in general, explained by one or more of three factors: luck, efficiency, and collusion. While it is difficult to regard luck as a crime, luck does not reflect merit. Profits due to efficiency seem like the least problematic case, and collusion seems the clearest case of when fortune coincides with crime. A variety of cases lie, at least in a dynamic sense, at the intersection of the three conditions. Unfortunately, history suggests that big business and big government can collude to keep profits flowing to the former and contributions flowing to the latter. While luck and efficiency may help initiate wealth, the system tolerates connivance, making Balzac’s statement more plausible than it ought to be.

    • cannedhams on 05/07/2020 - 19:43
      +3

      They dont call it the Church of Elontology for nothing.

    • Andard on 08/07/2020 - 16:11
      +1

      buying membership to a cult that comes with a free car.

      🤣😂

  • Mikeee on 03/07/2020 - 11:58
    +13

    For me the Tesla wins in three key areas:

    1. Safety both passive and active, one of the best in class (if not the best) and active safety getting better with software updates.

    2. Software updates: the car you buy today will be better in the future. In the past years the model 3 has received free software updates that improve safety, add new functions, better in car entertainment, give more horsepower, the list goes on. More future proof than other cars on the market.

    3. The drive. When you want to drive, it offers great dynamics and ample power to blow the doors off most cars on the road. When you don’t want to “drive” you can let a combination of auto steer/autopilot/FSD take over.

    Source: I have a Tesla

    • 87percent on 03/07/2020 - 12:08
      +51

      How do you know if someone is a Tesla owner?
      They tell you

      • Mikeee on 03/07/2020 - 12:10
        +12

        Haha, you’re right :)
        I think it is worth getting a perspective of people who have either of the two cars in question and not just second or third hand opinions though.

      • cannedhams on 03/07/2020 - 23:55
        -8

        I used to think that BMW M3 drivers were self-important tossers, but they have nothing on Tesla drivers. Its the combination of smugness and the idea that they're saving the world.

        • payless69 on 08/07/2020 - 09:36

          Bimmer boys carry a measuring tape…

          Get a Model 15 or newer from Hotzies list and chuck in a Comma2 and it will self drive much better than the current Tesla.

          So far they only cruise in NSW and the lower covid land. Google comma2!

      • smashman42 on 04/07/2020 - 14:20
        -4

        It's like Crossfit or being a Vegan, one level up from the iSheep religion!

        Mind you, I'd love to somehow win a Model S or X, then sell it and buy a Kona and wipe the mortgage with the left over

      • crentist on 05/07/2020 - 02:03
        +15

        yes how dare someone mention their experience of owning something in response to someone seeking advice for purchasing that thing

      • smartazz104 on 05/07/2020 - 16:51

        This surely applies to anyone driving an electric or hybird car in general…

  • Nugs on 03/07/2020 - 12:01
    +4

    ludicrous mode
    .

    • Shiq1 on 03/07/2020 - 22:11
      -5

      gets boring fast and needs time to warm up.

      Its like any launch control system on a car, great in theory but never used

      • [Deactivated] on 03/07/2020 - 22:19
        +8

        That's bullshit. Ludicrous mode needs zero time to warm up, and can be used all the time. You can literally drive around in it all day. You are talking about Ludicrous + mode. It lowers your 0-100kmh from 2.6 to 2.4 seconds. This is irrelevant anyway, because A) You've never been in a car that has Ludicrous mode, because it doesn't get boring fast, and doesn't require warming up, and B), it's not available on the Model 3. A car with Ludicrous mode cost double the top of the OP's budget.

          • [Deactivated] on 03/07/2020 - 22:26
            +9

            @Shiq1: 5 minutes ago you didn't even know what Ludicrous mode was.

            • Shiq1 on 03/07/2020 - 22:31
              -1

              @[Deactivated]: You're right, I may have assumed you meant the "plus mode", still doesn't change my reasoning, its a boring car after you own it for a while and honestly I would rather spend money on literally anything else.

Login or Join to leave a comment
Login Join