[Solved] Parking Fine for Parking within 10m of an Intersection

LSammysydney on 14/09/2020 - 13:53
Last edited 16/09/2020 - 17:54 by 1 other user

Greetings fellow OzBargainers,

Happened in Sydney,NSW.

I wish y'all have a great week ahead of you. Mine did not start pretty well, woke up to drive my van and there were two parking notices on top of it.

The reason is "Rule 170 (3) Stop within 10 m of intersection (no traffic lights):$349 and 2 demerit points".

Because I didn't check my van for a few days, that sums up to 4 demerit points and $700 which is awful for me. My business is not going well due to the covid situation either. Now I woke up today with hefty fines.

I didn't know such a rule existed, and there was no parking restriction on the road.

I am not sure if this is the right place to post this question, but please somebody tell me if there is a way out from this situation.

Should I dispute and take it to the court or just suck it up and pay the fines?

Another note is that I moved to where I am approximately 2 months ago, and people have been parking that spot since then, does this help me get away with a discount or withdrawal of the fine?

Any suggestion is appreciated….

OP Edit: Decided to appeal on the second fine due to continuous offence.

Automotive

Comments

  • ThithLord on 14/09/2020 - 13:57
    +96

    Nope, ignorance isn't justified when it comes to this offence, unfortunately.

  • DannyC on 14/09/2020 - 14:04
    +53

    I didn't know such a rule existed, and there was no parking restriction on the road.
    Should I dispute and take it to the court or just suck it up and pay the fines?

    You have nothing to fall back on in Court because it is Law it'd be a waste of time and heaps of money for something that is pretty clear cut. Not knowing about this rule ain't gonna cut it. So pay it and hard lesson learnt unfortunately.

    You can prob write a letter to the council of that area explaining your current financial situation while being polite and see if they would withdraw it. No harm in trying given the current climate.

    • AlanJ on 15/09/2020 - 10:27
      +14

      Upvote for DannyC's advice. Don't take it to court, because ignorance of the law is no excuse. Do write to the people issuing the fine and ask for a break. In the current climate this can't do any harm!

    • mincemeat on 15/09/2020 - 10:50

      This advice is your best shot.
      Honestly don't waste your time fighting them, they are a law unto themselves. I got issued a parking fine with the wrong offence on it, but you're talking to a brick wall while the fees and repercussions go up. In the end, I spent all my time successfully arguing it back down to the original fine fee!!!!

    • Krankite on 16/09/2020 - 13:23

      Isn't there an argument that the second fine is invalid because he wasn't given an opportunity to change his behavior? I recall this being used before to get out of multiple speed camera offences

      • DannyC on 16/09/2020 - 13:34

        Possibly. As I said there isn't any harm in writing an email or a written letter to the council of the area. It may or may not help in getting the fines reduced or withdrawn fully. From the demerit points and the fine amounts, it might have been issued by a Police officer.

        • BadHorse on 16/09/2020 - 15:19

          I thought that rule was in place If you haven't received the fine. I.e. getting a speeding fine twice in the same location before receiving the initial infringement notice in the mail.

          I would be interested to know if this applies here, given notice was given (on the vehicle in the form of initial ticket). I would think that the onus of not being notified wouldn't apply because thats all the noticed that is usually given

  • NatoTomato on 14/09/2020 - 14:04
    +19

    Going to have to suck it up. It's an easy one to forget, but at least in Queensland, it's a question on the Learner Exam.

  • Gronk on 14/09/2020 - 14:06
    +5

    I didn't know such a rule existed, and there was no parking restriction on the road.

    Kinda doesn't matter, imagine a world where everybody who plead ignorance was let off the hook?

    Should I dispute and take it to the court or just suck it up and pay the fines?

    If there's demerits involved, sounds like the fine was issued by the police as opposed to the council so I think you'd be pushing it uphill, especially if your whole argument revolves around you not knowing the law existed.

    Could be worse, the area I live in your car would just get towed, no questions asked.

    • seajay on 15/09/2020 - 15:39

      In NSW the council rangers issue this fine and you get a letter a few weeks later confirming the demerits. Been there, done that.

  • GG57 on 14/09/2020 - 14:07
    +12

    Rest assured, this is the perfect place to ask such questions.
    I'd suggest you just accept the fines and close this post.

  • toniyellow on 14/09/2020 - 14:10
    +6

    There is no way to get out of it as others have said

    You could apply to pay in instalments though if paying it all at once would be a hardship
    https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/transaction/apply-time-pay-en…

  • Seraphin7 on 14/09/2020 - 14:16
    +3

    You won't be able to get out of those fines.

    At the end of the day, you'll just waste time, effort, and money trying to fight it and the magistrate will ultimately ask you for why the law should not apply to this circumstance … you'll answer with a variation of "I didn't know about this road rule" … to which the magistrate will reply with a variation of "well, you may claim not to be aware of any number of laws, but that does not absolve you from the obligation to follow them".

    You'll then be stiffed with the fines and the demerit points, plus court costs and solicitors' fees.

    • Tech5 on 14/09/2020 - 14:22
      +23

      I would say that is a different story. They send letters and/or texts to let you know of registration expiry. They weren't in the country so may not have received the letters. Getting those letters and then forgetting about it is not an excuse. Just like getting taught the 10m rule and forgetting about it is also not an excuse.

      You came here for our collective opinion and you got it. What you do with it is up to you lol. None of us are going to physically stop you from going to court

    • ZachBlasphemy on 15/09/2020 - 12:12
      +4

      It seems that you already plan on contesting the fine. Please update your post when you get back with your results.

  • slow on 14/09/2020 - 14:28
    +33

    I think you will nothing to lose by writing a grovelling letter, say you know you were wrong and you are now wiser and won't do it again, and request that one of the fines be waived as they were in effect for the same offence as you hadn't had an opportunity to move your car. They may waive one of them.

    • Sammysydney on 14/09/2020 - 14:29
      +1

      thanks for giving me a little bit of hope.

      This was all I needed :)

      • capslock janitor on 15/09/2020 - 13:26
        +3

        Don't forget to mention your good track record/driving history (assuming so) for the leniency

      • shrugies on 17/09/2020 - 00:13

        If that doesn't work, maybe doing the same in court would reduce the fines down to 1 offence, not 2. Maybe a Section 10 dismissal could apply. If I remember correctly, you have a certain period which you can elect to go to court to dispute the fine and it costs $80? Just my 2c

    • trapper on 15/09/2020 - 16:04

      Yeah I think there is a good chance to get at least one waved.

  • JimmyF on 14/09/2020 - 14:30

    I didn't know such a rule existed, and there was no parking restriction on the road.

    ignorance is not a excuse

    Should I dispute and take it to the court or just suck it up and pay the fines?

    As above, ignorance is not a excuse. So what is your reason that you LEGALLY should have been able to park there? If you don't have one, then yes pay the fine.

    and people have been parking that spot since then, does this help me get away with a discount or withdrawal of the fine?

    Nope, just because someone else does it, doesn't mean you can or its legal. Maybe they have been getting fined as well hence why they are no longer parking there and it was free ;)

    please somebody tell me if there is a way out from this situation.

    Open wallet, pay fines is the only way out.

    You could try writing a letter explaining you hadn't checked the van for a few days and if they could merge the two fines into one fine.

    But again, you still are looking at paying a fine…..ignorance is not a excuse for getting out of a parking fine.

  • Sammysydney on 14/09/2020 - 14:33
    +3

    thank you all for your suggestions,

    just putting this link here if there are ignorant ppl like me out there. :)

    https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roads/safety-rules/deme…

    • SydStrand on 14/09/2020 - 15:06

      You'll find they won't accept ignorance as an excuse, because you (the license holder) theoretically should be familiar with relevant road laws while studying for your theory test. Of course, very few people actually do, but they'll throw the book at you anyway.

        • pegaxs on 14/09/2020 - 15:22
          +12

          this rule has come into action on 30th, Nov 2018

          Beg to differ. I remember this being on the license test when I got my license back in the early 90's.

          I can only go back to 2014 on the current road rules legislation in NSW, but the road rule existed back then

          Here is the same law from 2008…

        • jjjaar on 14/09/2020 - 15:22
          +1

          Yes but when you get a license there is probably something in the terms and conditions of using the license that says you as the license holder will keep up to date with relevant laws/rules.

        • trongy on 14/09/2020 - 15:46
          +2

          The NSW government has some historical versions of legislation on their website

          Road Rules 2014 November 2014 version includes this rule.

          Road rules 2008 also includes this rule.

          My guess is that it goes back way further than that.

        • toniyellow on 14/09/2020 - 16:23
          +7

          The change in late 2018 was to add two demerit points to the offence, but the 10m stopping distance was in effect before that, just with a fine no points.

          10m was first a law in 2008 - it replaced the previous distance which was 6 metres 
          https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/trafficinformation/downloads/ttd-…

          So there would definitely have been a distance on your test, whether it was 6 metres or 10 metres

        • brad1-8tsi on 14/09/2020 - 19:38
          +2

          The rule (or one very similar) was in place when I got my licence in 1979.

          Even if it was a new rule, which it isn't, you are obligated to be aware of the current road rules.

          edit: It's a sucky rule because often it is hard to ascertain where the corner "starts". There should be a marker on the kerb to signify where the 10m point is

          • ThirdRonnie on 14/09/2020 - 20:50
            +4

            @brad1-8tsi:

            I got my licence in 1979.

            I got mine in 1967 and it was a rule then. There used to be yellow markers on the kerb to show where the limit of parking was. They probably cut costs and don't paint them any more and gain revenue from all the drivers who don't know the rule.

        • turbochris on 15/09/2020 - 08:38
          +1

          I got booked for this 25 years ago so it has definitely been around for a long time.

        • Baghern on 15/09/2020 - 14:46
          +1

          no mate, i still remember this from the 90s and our rule booklet was tiny small

          Its pretty obvious why you shouldnt be parking at/near intersections, it creates blind spots

    • Geoff-bargain on 15/09/2020 - 11:57

      Also found this article about it https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/on-th…

  • Melb69 on 14/09/2020 - 15:20
    +3

    Pay fine and move on. Nothing to see here. Pick up a learners guide book. Think you may need a refresher.

  • whooah1979 on 14/09/2020 - 15:34

    Go online and look at the photos. You may be able to have the fines heard in court.

    https://www.revenue.nsw.gov.au/fines-and-fees

    I found this but haven’t read it yet.
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-21/nsw-government-to-hal…

  • Euphemistic on 14/09/2020 - 15:40
    +7

    Write and ask for lenience for one fine mentioning a valid, true reason why you didn’t move your vehicle until the second fine was applied.

    Possibly get one waived, but unlikely.

  • Yummy on 14/09/2020 - 15:46
    +7

    OP, don't put your hand out of the window for a wave, mmkay? Just in case if you didn't know this rule too.

    • pegaxs on 14/09/2020 - 16:29
      +2

      Lest ye be the driver and giving a right hand turn signal ARR 50 or stop signal ARR 55

      All others… keep your hands inside! ARR 268 (3)

  • askme69 on 14/09/2020 - 19:48
    +9

    It's a continuous offence. The second will get cancelled on appeal. Submit an online review. Assuming this is NSW.

  • Frayin on 14/09/2020 - 20:15
    +25

    I absolutely loathe people who park on the side of the road, literally right on an intersection. Nothing better than having to go around your idiotic parked car right on an intersection.

      • Frayin on 14/09/2020 - 21:07
        +12

        It's better for you not to put idiotic comments on people's post instead of judging them, aight!!!

        Might want to re-read that. The irony.

      • Baghern on 15/09/2020 - 14:49
        +3

        The rule is there to protect people…

        All your posts here is just out right denial…

        All the post refuting you doesn't seem to get through

      • Ughhh on 17/09/2020 - 17:15

        Legislations are made to protect people not punish them

        Yes, to protect pedestrians and other drivers from poorly parked vehicles/drivers with poor safety judgement, who create a hazardous environment and potentially an accident.

    • aragornelessar on 15/09/2020 - 15:33
      +3

      I find it also blocks the drivers view of incoming traffic.. forcing you to nudge out further and further just to see if the way is clear to turn out of the intersection. Not the safest thing to do

      • Frayin on 15/09/2020 - 17:01
        +2

        Yeah that's exactly my concerns. Every time you have to go around the car, you often can't see what's coming around the corner, likewise, cars coming around the corner aren't expecting an oncoming vehicle to be in their lane.

        It's beyond common sense, i can't believe people still park on intersections.

  • [Deactivated] on 14/09/2020 - 22:06
    +1

    Haha sorry mate, been there done that. It's a shit fine to get.

    I got one as a uni student for parking here near the inside corner here: https://i.imgur.com/qod5GFU.png

    Giant kerb and gutter to get into the other 'road' in the 'intersection', 100% looks like a private driveway from street level (it's a university property).

    Big $ and demerit points for something like that, don't you think? Hope you find the $$$ to pay it mate, was a struggle for me too.

  • acoma on 15/09/2020 - 08:22
    +1

    y'all

    • ak47wong on 16/09/2020 - 14:47

      lol, y'all

  • figjamone on 15/09/2020 - 10:09
    +1

    Take it to court and plead guilty and ask if you pay the five once not twice for the same thing at the same place as if you were caught speeding it would be once not for every metre that the police saw you speed.

  • bamzero on 15/09/2020 - 10:42

    Well I always thought it was illegal to park within 30m of an intersection (in WA anyway)

  • ozbjunkie on 15/09/2020 - 11:22
    +2

    That sucks OP. yes other people are right that it's a rule, it's in the book, etc. But it's a pretty easy one to forget when you can find 100 card breaking this rule within 1km of where I live in Sydney. And they don't all have $350 love letters on them.

    Apply for leniency. If they knock you back, plead again. If they knock you a third time, ask for payment plan .

  • Krogers on 15/09/2020 - 11:35

    Stop driving until you learn the road rules

  • OzHunterNSW on 15/09/2020 - 11:59
    +3

    1: I hate y'all… where are you?

    2: It is illegal for a reason… your flaunting of rules places all of us in danger.

    Then you have the hide to cry clemency.

  • Mark1159 on 15/09/2020 - 12:05
    +5

    Generally a safety issue - reduces vision for motorists and pedestrians. Especially if it’s a van

  • stumo on 15/09/2020 - 12:28

    You need to be more careful where you park with a van. People have a chip on their shoulder about van parking.

    The fact other people park cars there just fine, suggests someone dobbed you in.

    Definitely dispute the second fine, because it isnt a separate offence, it was one offence.

    And be more careful about where you park your van. You need to be 100% legal because people will be looking for an excuse to dob.

  • CocaKoala on 15/09/2020 - 12:29

    I didn't know such a rule existed

    Which begs the question: How did you even get a driving license?!

    Any suggestion is appreciated

    I've a couple of suggestions:

    • Don't forget to pay the fine, although if you request politely, the 2x fine may get reduced to 1x as it's the same offence.
    • Read this: NSW - Road Users' Handbook
  • PerfectShopper on 15/09/2020 - 12:42

    Measure the distance from the curb to the front of the car. Was it actually less than 10 metres just by a few CMS? Is there a sign around there that allows you to park closer than 10 metres? Check! Ask for a review if you have mental health issues, broke down, or have a great driving record for past 10 years to get it waived. I would argue it as it was the one continuous offence and as soon as you returned, you immediately moved the van. Plenty of defences to this. I'd try to get it wiped first, then 50 percent reduction or WDO. Look into all of this as I see these as viable options. It's just knowing the law.

  • PerfectShopper on 15/09/2020 - 12:53
    +1

    People parking there before might be an argument if there are lines marked on the ground? Definitely challenge it, don't be afraid to. Any community lawyer is free for consultation. Try Kingsford Legal Centre at UNSW. , but my advice is correct. I broke down once and left a sign - still got a ticket. So, I just presented the receipt for the new battery. I was in a timed zone, too, over a few days of changing time zones. Whole lot wiped. If you can't get a grasp on the law surrounding this and defences, then just head to a community legal centre for free. Take a few pics of the spot. But definitely explore what I've written in my two posts as you have a defence to this.

  • PerfectShopper on 15/09/2020 - 13:02

    A lot of it stems on that 10 metre aspect. I'm guessing they took photos, however if it was on the borderline of 10 metres, I'd be cross examining the person on what they used to measure the distance with, etc. If you can show a reasonable doubt that you were not less than 10 metres away from intersection, then the whole lot is wiped. They often don't know the defences as well as a lawyer. They just issue the tickets, without sometimes considering the arguments. These are the things to think of. You can beat this down if you dare!

  • eggles01 on 15/09/2020 - 13:15
    -1

    if you did not know the road rules,how did you pass the driving test for your licence,

    • ily on 15/09/2020 - 14:36
      -4

      this is a recent change.

      • Yummy on 15/09/2020 - 17:45

        It was in the news.com.au like tenth times already.

        Unless you are not a fan of Murdoch.

    • No ONE on 15/09/2020 - 14:50
      -1

      Driving test does not test this rule.

  • Kkuba on 15/09/2020 - 13:36

    Legitimate question.

    Isn't that two identical fines for the same offence?

    I get that it was over two (or more) days. Is that where an arbitrary line is drawn? 24 hours separating them defines two separate offences?

    What does the law have to say on this I wonder.

    • Jono05 on 16/09/2020 - 02:53

      Some people park illegally in the same spot and leave a previous fine on their car so they don’t get booked again. Second fine issuer had no way of knowing that the car hadn’t been moved and parked again in the same spot.

  • Kranbone on 15/09/2020 - 13:38

    You can't dispute the fine because you didn't know. Sounds pretty clear cut man, I'd pay the fine and use this as a learning experience.

    • whooah1979 on 15/09/2020 - 13:41

      The driver may be able to dispute the fine based on evidence. The authorised officer have to show evidence that the vehicle is parked within 10m of the corner.

      • Jono05 on 16/09/2020 - 02:54

        Maybe the OP needs to prove that he wasn’t parked within 10m of the intersection?

        • whooah1979 on 16/09/2020 - 04:40

          The driver is being accused of an offence. They have the legal right to dispute the fine either by a review or have it heard in court. A hearing would require the other party to provide evidence to support the fine.

  • superuser on 15/09/2020 - 13:59
    +2

    Ignore the fines and move on?
    You'll be fine, don't worry

  • No ONE on 15/09/2020 - 14:27

    Now I woke up today with hefty fines

    Then fk up the system by claiming jobkeeper. Even.

    • Zachary on 17/09/2020 - 17:10

      You can't claim jobkeeper because he's a sole trader….

      • whooah1979 on 18/09/2020 - 07:49

        Jobkeeper is available to sole traders.

        Long version in the link.
        https://www.ato.gov.au/General/JobKeeper-Payment/Sole-trader…

        If you are a sole trader – that is, you own your business and are not an employee of your business – only you can be the eligible business participant.
        You will qualify as an eligible business participant provided you satisfy all the following conditions:

        • Zachary on 28/09/2020 - 06:15

          Oh…my mistake then, I guess I need to update my information…last I read, it was only small companies that aren't sole traders or partnerships get it….and that you needed to have worked since the start of this year to have been applicable for it.

  • redslert on 15/09/2020 - 14:35
    +1

    Sorry to hear but I've had the same fine from Randwick council.
    Parked in the side streets of UNSW where street space is limited.
    There's a spot before a single lane side street that fits a car with 5m to spare, which it decent amount of space!

    Got a fine, complained to council, they replied back with photocopy of the road rules and upheld the fine.
    So many people have been fined in that very same spot, it was an obvious revenue source for the council. YEARS!!! later they put up a No Parking sign on that spot.

  • Zephyrus on 15/09/2020 - 14:45
    +5

    Unless you're a cop, ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

    • kokita on 16/09/2020 - 17:25
      +1

      So the cops can park in No Parking Zone for their Thai takeaway? Or make an illegal U-turn just to make a shortcut back to the police station?
      You see a lot of them in Sydney CBD.

      • Zephyrus on 16/09/2020 - 18:38
        +1

        Of course, you can also fiddle children and bash people.

        • ntt on 16/09/2020 - 20:06

          you spell priest wrong

  • kiitos on 15/09/2020 - 14:48

    Were you parked on the side of the road that was approaching the intersection or leaving the intersection?

  • mezje on 15/09/2020 - 14:59

    I would ask for lenience on the second fine, explain you didn't attend to the car.

    The fine taught you not to do it again, the second one is redundant.

  • cuteseal on 15/09/2020 - 15:07
    +1

    Feel your pain OP, I got stung for parking beside a dividing line as well in a residential street (VIC).

    It was just a normal street with houses and a slight bend (maybe 30 degrees) but they put a solid dividing line through the bend. No signage otherwise that said you couldn't park. Didn't know that rule existed but… now I do.

    https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-r…

    • GG57 on 15/09/2020 - 15:18

      Did you not think that, when you parked, hmmmm there isn't much room between my car and that line (even if it is just to indicate the middle of the road)?

      • cuteseal on 15/09/2020 - 15:46
        +2

        Well… it is obvious that I didn't?

  • [Deactivated] on 15/09/2020 - 15:08
    -1

    I suggest you follow the road rules and don’t whine about it when you get caught breaking them.

  • imnotgoingtopayrrp on 15/09/2020 - 15:10

    My only suggestion is to pay the fines as soon as possible, as they linger in your record after the payment (payment is acceptance and closing the fine) and can cost you more down the track (insurance, discount on licence fee and terms of licence [5yrs instead of 10yrs]).

  • Kamsi on 15/09/2020 - 15:22

    Just to make you feel a bit happy I got booked twice in a week for disobeying stop signs no demerit recorded. It just one of those days that you wish you buy a lotto ticket.

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