Qantas Introducing No Jab - No Fly Policy

Is there a legal precedent to this? How is a major airline allowed to take it upon themselves to mandate medical decisions on behalf of the public?

By comparison, would it be acceptable for insurance companies, telcos, or energy providers to deny their products/services to a large part of the country based on similar criteria?

Eg - anyone who's ever had an abortion is not eligible for this power plan. Too bad for you, guessing you'll have to learn to start a fire or freeze to death.

This is truly absurd.

Qantas will ban travellers who don't have the COVID vaccine — can other businesses follow suit?

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Comments

                            • @1st-Amendment: That you were conflating two arguments that had nothing to do with each other and also throwing out straw men like they were on special - i have neither the time nor the inclination to go through the whole thread and point them out to you.

                              How about two specific items:
                              1) talking about precedents and saying Alan Joyce is trying to make a law when as multiple people have pointed out to you there IS a precedent - (Yellow Fever) and he's not trying to make a law but set conditions under which his private company will provide a service, which there are literally hundreds of thousands of precedents for? Oh that's right you keep saying it's a government controlled monopoly - show me a route that only Qantas operates on domestically where they are not subject to competition, from Virgin, previously from tiger and in future from Rex.

                              2) How about your ridiculous assertion that he's making this rule alone or in a vacuum? Multiple people have pointed out to you that the airlines are all doing this together, that there will likely be some sort of electronic vaccination passport? He can't invent or enforce that on his own as you would know if you knew anything AT ALL about how airlines operate.

                              Read the article, take a deep breath and also stop the random trump promotion and attacks on the left that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

                              • @slewis69au:

                                i have neither the time nor the inclination to go through the whole thread and point them out to you.

                                But then you did…

                                1) talking about precedents and saying Alan Joyce is trying to make a law when as multiple people have pointed out to you there IS a precedent - (Yellow Fever)

                                Wrong. Yellow fever is a requirement by the Australian Government, not a private business: https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Cont…

                                Oh that's right you keep saying it's a government controlled monopoly - show me a route that only Qantas operates on domestically

                                News flash, Qantas also flies internationally which is heavily regulated: https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Depart…

                                2) How about your ridiculous assertion that he's making this rule alone or in a vacuum? Multiple people have pointed out to you that the airlines are all doing this together, that there will likely be some sort of electronic vaccination passport?

                                Lol, wrong again… https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/a-bit-premature-global-a…

                                He can't invent or enforce that on his own as you would know if you knew anything AT ALL about how airlines operate.

                                This is my exact argument, go back and read the dozens of posts where I said exactly this. Only a government can force a vaccine requirement, not a private business.

                                Read the article, take a deep breath and also stop the random trump promotion and attacks on the left that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

                                You were the first to raise American Politics in this thread, quote randomly I might add.

                                And since you went there, I'll leave you with a Ronald Reagan quote: ""Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.”"

                                • @1st-Amendment: I have no more time to argue with someone who picks and chooses individual pieces to suit their current argument.

                                  Two examples:
                                  I did NOT go through the thread and point out each one, i chose two individual items.

                                  Is your argument about domestic or international (you keep switching depending on what you want to say or what suits your current argument)?

                                  I have never made an argument towards one side of politics or another, only you've done that, repeatedly and often. Plenty of quotes are around that support attacking the right or the left, both are equally pointless - consensus is the only way to achieve anything long lasting and we keep moving further and further away from that - thanks for your contribution there.

                • +3

                  @1st-Amendment: Is there some evidence to suggest wearing this yellow star might help save lives or keep people well? Chuck it on then - yellow star brigade here we go. An "abuse" of power implies some sort of misuse - this is one of the things the government is there for. You and the rest of the minority who wanted to keep borders open and don't want to take a vaccine can be ignored - the majority of this democracy are clearly onboard with this system.

                  People who've possibly been in contact with mad cow disease can't donate blood for the rest of their lives - you aren't up in arms about that? Something not based on choice and lifelong should be much more concerning no? Wait until the government says you can't travel if you've ever had COVID or something actually unreasonable before you try to pitch your flag

                • +3

                  @1st-Amendment: Australia has a public healthcare system mate that we all pay for in taxes. In order to keep it running, everyone should do their part to stay as healthy as they can and also consider the health of others not just their own.

                  • -2

                    @WindowsXP: Cool, and Alan Joyce gets to decide the policy on that?
                    Do you understand how the law works?

                    • +1

                      @1st-Amendment:

                      Cool, and Alan Joyce gets to decide the policy on that?
                      Do you understand how the law works?

                      Its shocking how a self proclaimed legal expert can't differentiate between policy and law.

                  • +4

                    @WindowsXP: Should we send obese people to training camps? What about smokers? Drug addicts? People doing risky activities?

                    • @brendanm: Crazy argument to make but that is why we see public health campaigns via government advertising.

                      • @WindowsXP: Health campaigns≠forcing people to take a vaccine for something that has very minor implications for most people.

                        The equivalent for what you suggest, would be to mandate people over a certain BMI get forced to diet or exercise. What's your BMI? Should I send the health police around now? I hope you aren't smoking or drinking alcohol as well, they'll be very upset.

                        • +3

                          @brendanm: Being fat isn’t going to make others around you come down with a potentially deadly illness. Nobody is forcing anyone to get the vaccine but if you want to fly on Qantas then you may need to. But then nobody is forcing you to fly Qantas.

                        • @brendanm: Yea that sounds like a great idea. I'm serious

                    • +2

                      @brendanm: We incarcerate drug addicts and ban smokers from public places and play areas.

                      The problem is that smokers and drug addicts like anti-vaxxers, are not just a danger to themselves but to the rest of us. You want to die of a disease that you feel comfortable ignoring because Pete Evans told you so? Go for it. It's your body and your choice.

                      But infecting/harming the rest of us and then wailing for the same healthcare system you railed against to come save you? Kind of like Pete Evans selling a device to cure you of COVID while claiming it does not exist? Yeah, that affects my choice.

                      Also, I am unaware of obese people in Australia being sent to training camps. You know, because obese people are not exactly a danger to others.

                      • @gramoras: Lol, because someone doesn't want to take something unproven, they follow Pete Evans?

                        We don't incarcerate drug addicts at all, and smokers can smoke 100 packs a day if they like.

                        You want to die of a disease that you feel comfortable ignoring

                        What was the average age of covid deaths in Australia? How many of the deaths were previously healthy people?

                • +4

                  @1st-Amendment: I know right? Like that time they were all "you have to wear a seatbelt", and "you have to follow the speed limit", and "you have to have a license before we'll let you drive a truck", and then we all died in concentration camps. /s

                  • @GrueHunter: So now tell us bright one who implemented seat belt laws? I'll give you a clue, it wasn't Toyota.
                    I think 90% of this thread is the confusion between powers of goverment and private citizens. Maybe go back and learn how that works…

              • +1

                @sakurashu: The effects of covid have been shown. No one knows effects of the vaccine. Logically, you go with what you know.

                Just because someone doesn't want to get the vaccine, doesn't meant they think the vaccine will do something bad. It simply means that they know that there is the possibility that it could, and have weighed that up against what they know happens if they don't get it.

                • +1

                  @brendanm: Then lucky no one is forcing you to take the vaccine. Flying is not a necessity, nor is international travel, just like the vaccine you can choose not to partake.

                  • @gromit: You'd have to point out where I said anything about being forced, or flying being a necessity. Seems like you are arguing with yourself in they regard.

                  • -1

                    @gromit:

                    Flying is not a necessity, nor is international travel

                    Right, so why make this as yet unreleased vaccine mandatory? If you are fearful of getting sick, stay at home.

                    • @1st-Amendment: It isn't mandatory. It is entirely voluntary

                      • -2

                        @gromit: That's right, flying is voluntary so why do you need a vaccine to do it? You can stay at home…

                        • @1st-Amendment: you seem not to be able to grasp basic logic. Two voluntary things don't make something compulsory. Just like it is not compulsory for you to have a passport, it is also not compulsory for you not to be drunk, it also isn't compulsory for you to not smoke. Yet none of those things you can ignore if you want to fly overseas. An Airline mandating you aren't a prick to your fellow human being is hardly an unreasonable imposition for the privilege of flying overseas. The reality is that whether Airlines demand it or not countries almost certainly will anyway.

                          • -2

                            @gromit:

                            you seem not to be able to grasp basic logic

                            One of us doesn't. All of those things you mentioned are government regulations not the airlines'. Engage brain before posting…

                            The reality is that whether Airlines demand it or not countries almost certainly will anyway.

                            Also unlikely due to compliance complications. The most likely outcome is that the virus disappears of it's own accord just like all the previous ones did.

                            • @1st-Amendment:

                              Also unlikely due to compliance complications. The most likely outcome is that the virus disappears of it's own accord just like all the previous ones did.

                              What compliance complications? They do this already for various things. One more item to the list is not a problem

                              One of us doesn't. All of those things you mentioned are government regulations not the airlines'. Engage brain before posting…

                              Heavily pregnant is a airline impossed travel restriction, Travelling with a Communicable disease OR infection has been a long existing travel restriction on Qantas also.

                              you seem to live in Trumps delusional world where you think this is just going to magically disappear. Just like the Flu has magically disappeared right?

                              • -1

                                @gromit:

                                Travelling with a Communicable disease OR infection has been a long existing travel restriction on Qantas also.

                                Right, so this never happened: https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Pages/flig…

                                you seem to live in Trumps delusional world where you think this is just going to magically disappear. Just like the Flu has magically disappeared right?

                                Actually its called biology. Different influenza strains come and go all by themselves without human intervention. Just like MERS and SARS. But ignore actual science because… Orange Man Bad!

                                • @1st-Amendment: ok your one of those Trump looney's lol explain's a lot. Science is just an inconvenience for you. MERS and SARS had extreme lockdowns to get rid of them and neither were widespread, The Spanish Flu is still around today some 100 years after it killed 10's of millions, though luckily the amount of people with antibodies makes the outbreaks relatively contained and small. One day we might get to the same levels for Covid too, but companies like Qantas and other airlines won't survive waiting the years that will take. They need to do something to make international travel viable next year.

                                  Right, so this never happened: https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Pages/flig…

                                  And? you think just because there are restrictions in place people don't break them intentionally or accidentally? That is why a vaccination requirement is a good thing as it takes the guess work away and significantly lowers the risk for everyone.

        • +1

          You don’t have to get the vaccine. I probably won’t do so early unless it blocks transmission, as I am willing to risk getting sick myself rather than race for a new vaccine, but obviously if it has a protective benefit for those who could die if they caught it I would take it.

          But I won’t make a risk/benefit calculation like that for myself, but then demand everyone else agree with my assessment so I can take a holiday.

          • -3

            @mskeggs:

            But I won’t make a risk/benefit calculation like that for myself, but then demand everyone else agree with my assessment so I can take a holiday.

            But Alan Joyce is allowed to make that risk/benefit calculation on everyone's behalf? What legal power does he have to do that?

            To save you the effort, this argument is not about vaccines it's about a private business having the power to decide what you have to do to use their service. Every other border protection/safety measure/control is set by the government, not the business owners. Most posters on this subject are struggling to make this distinction.

            As a thought exercise if vaccines are acceptable to enforce privately, then can I force my customers to consume this medicine I have here in my pocket that I got from Mexico? You know, for safety reasons? Where is the line and who decides?

            The other funny question I've tried to avoid, if the vaccine works, why do you care if I have it or not? Won't you be immune regardless?
            (Don't actually answer that, it's mostly tongue in cheek :)

            • @1st-Amendment:

              The other funny question I've tried to avoid, if the vaccine works, why do you care if I have it or not? Won't you be immune regardless?

              Believe it or not, not everyone is selfish, it's not always about 'me me me'. Most people are thinking about other peoples health too, ie. people who are immunocompromised.

              • @Ughhh:

                Believe it or not, not everyone is selfish

                Actually everyone is selfish, all of nature is. But you keep the dream alive!

                ie. people who are immunocompromised.

                I don't think you understand how vaccines work..

                .

                • @1st-Amendment:

                  Actually everyone I am is selfish, all of nature is. But you keep the dream alive!

                  FTFY

                  I don't think you understand how vaccines work..

                  Oh, please share on how you think vaccines work? Did you learn it from Professor Pete Evans?

                  edit: Im sorry that you're surrounded by selfish people that have lead you to feel this way about people. Hope you find some nice people in your life.

                  • @Ughhh:

                    FTFY

                    Nope. Nature doesn't care what you believe…

                    Oh, please share on how you think vaccines work?

                    You're the one claiming they don't work, you tell us Uncle Pete…

                    • @1st-Amendment:

                      You're the one claiming they don't work, you tell us Uncle Pete…

                      LOL when and where did I say that? Making stuff up again or just poor comprehension? Probably both going by the evidence.

                      • @Ughhh:

                        Making stuff up again or just poor comprehension?

                        One of us is struggling… did you see this bit? "(Don't actually answer that, it's mostly tongue in cheek :)"

                        But since you went there,

                        If you are vaccinated, and the vaccination protects you from the virus, why do you care whether anyone else is vaccinated or not?

                        Think about that for a moment before replying….

                        • +1

                          @1st-Amendment:

                          If you are vaccinated, and the vaccination protects you from the virus, why do you care whether anyone else is vaccinated or not?

                          Think about that for a moment before replying….

                          There is nothing to think about, this is again your basic lack of understanding in science. No vaccine is 100% effective, however as a community if the majority take them it starves the virus of potential hosts and reduces your chance of getting infected whether the vaccine worked for you or not. a long flight is a high risk environment for infectious diseases and you want to do your best to reduce your risk, the best way to reduce that risk is that EVERYONE that can be vaccinated is vaccinated not just yourself. Airlines understand that international travel to be successful from a business sense next year will require them to offer both the passengers and the countries they fly to assurances that their flights are very low risk of having the virus onboard.

                          • @gromit:

                            There is nothing to think about,

                            Of course there is.

                            the best way to reduce that risk is that EVERYONE that can be vaccinated is vaccinated not just yourself

                            And this falls under the jurisdiction of the government, not a private business. Is this point sinking in yet?

                            • @1st-Amendment:

                              And this falls under the jurisdiction of the government, not a private business. Is this point sinking in yet?

                              and the private business is a optional thing for you to deal with. Is the point sinking in yet? I am guessing not! A private business can make almost any conditions they wish (as long as they are not discriminatory against a protected class).

                              • -1

                                @gromit:

                                Is the point sinking in yet? I am guessing not! A private business can make almost any conditions they wish

                                Actually they can't. This is where you are going wrong.
                                The problem with this thread is that I don't think many here have run a business so are unaware the mountain of regulations and red tape they are constricted by.

                                • @1st-Amendment:

                                  Actually they can't. This is where you are going wrong.
                                  The problem with this thread is that I don't think many here have run a business so are unaware the mountain of regulations and red tape they are constricted by.

                                  I have run several businesses in the past and members of my family still do. A Business has the absolute right to refuse to do business with a private citizen (as long as it is not as previously mentioned discriminatory against a protected class). Please provide your citation that this is wrong? yes businesses have mountains of red tape, and shocking though it may sound they also employ mountains of lawyers to deal with that as I am sure Qantas has already consulted with said lawyers as well.

                                  • -1

                                    @gromit:

                                    A Business has the absolute right to refuse to do business with a private citizen (as long as it is not as previously mentioned discriminatory against a protected class). Please provide your citation that this is wrong?

                                    Well think about how you think this would work. I rock up to Qantas check-in and they demand to see my vaccination certificate? Issued by whom? How do they verify this? How do they verify it for the hundreds and hundreds of different medical systems around the world? How do they comply with the hundreds and hundreds of legal compliance regulations of all those jurisdictions?

                                    The aforementioned example of yellow fever vaccines are government backed initiatives, with all the resources and legal power governments already possess. This is the difference

                                    I am sure Qantas has…

                                    More than likely they are using this as a PR stunt to pressure gov to act. I'll bet real money they don't do anything without government regulation to support it.

                                    • @1st-Amendment:

                                      Well think about how you think this would work. I rock up to Qantas check-in and they demand to see my vaccination certificate? Issued by whom? How do they verify this?

                                      The same way they verify it currently for countries and regions that demand vaccinations already, this is obviously a administrative problem but hardly something they don't already need to do, e.g. you provide a certificate of vaccination from a medical professional. regardless airlines and governments are already discussing a potential vaccination passport/card to make this easier.

                        • @1st-Amendment: Have you heard of herd immunity? It has been explained to you like 100 times from various people. As pointed out by others, you clearly lack understanding of science and vaccines. Or do you struggle with reading?

                          • -1

                            @Ughhh:

                            Have you heard of herd immunity?

                            Yes have you? Because your answer implies that you have no idea. Look it up it then come back.

                            you clearly lack understanding of science and vaccines. Or do you struggle with reading?

                            One of us does, and it's obvious to anyone with a functioning brain who that is…

                            • @1st-Amendment:

                              One of us does, and it's obvious to anyone with a functioning brain who that is…

                              Lmao. I feel embarrassed for you.

    • +15

      All those vaccines have years of testing and research beforehand to support the fact they will work as intended.

      The concern that most people have is that this is an entirely new and largely untested vaccine(s) whose long term effects and efficacy are unknown.

      • +1

        Would you rather wait 5 years before everyone can travel?

        • +9

          Travelling vs potential health issues. Hmmmm what should I choose.

          • -3

            @brendanm: Health issues are over-rated. I know 4 people who had it, all under 50, all not fat or any pre-exsiting conditions. All of them said it was the same as a mild cold. Like the flu, if you are in a risk group then take the measures you deem necessary, but just like the flu, don't force that on everyone.

            • -1

              @1st-Amendment: Not covid mate, the vaccine. You are preaching to the choir with your summary there.

            • +5

              @1st-Amendment: 1.4 million deaths worldwide and counting.

              You: "I know 4 people who had it"

              • +1

                @GrueHunter: 1.4m deaths.

                How many died of COVID and how many died with COVID? There is a difference between the two.

                • +2

                  @whooah1979: Yes, there is. It's called "excess deaths". That's the number of deaths we actually had, versus the number of deaths we'd normally have.

                  You can Google what people with relevant qualifications have to say about it, but out of curiosity, how many excess deaths are you OK with? For example, are you OK with the 275,000 people who died in the US in excess of the five-year average between 1 March and 16 August? You know, before it got really bad?

                  • @GrueHunter: It's the old argument. 'It wasn't really genocide because we just killed 50,000 not 200,000.' Death always feels distant until it reaches out and touches you.

                • @whooah1979: Only if you have zero medical knowledge and read blogs about a certain discredited doctor.

                  maybe take your own advice and do "your own research" which is actually your own, instead of parroting rubbish you don't understand

              • @GrueHunter: The annual world mortality rate is around 27 million …

                • +1

                  @buderim11: See my comment about excess deaths above, have a think about how many extra deaths you're totally cool with, then let me know why you're smarter than qualified epidemiologists. (Don't bother: you aren't.)

                  • @GrueHunter: The only problem I have with this argument is that every year several hundred thousand people worldwide die of influenza, despite vaccines, yet no-one every cared about this, sure more people have died from Covid19 but why is it completely acceptable for influenza to kill so many people but not Covid19?

                    • +1

                      @Nebargains: Who ever said it was acceptable? The Flu is far less deadly than Covid19 (luckily) and far far harder to effectively stop. Even so many places have requirements for Flu vaccines and quarantine to reduce the likelihood of Flu getting into aged care and hospitals etc where it does the most harm.

                      • -1

                        @gromit:

                        The Flu is far less deadly than Covid19

                        The Flu has killed over 100 million people. It's currently responsible for 650000 deaths per year according to WHO: https://www.who.int/news/item/13-12-2017-up-to-650-000-peopl…

                        and far far harder to effectively stop.

                        Flu transmission is almost the same as Covid. The lock down laws have reduced flu infections considerably, why not do that every year until the Flu is eradicated?

                        • @1st-Amendment: We are currently at 1.4 million this year for Covid so far (on track for 1.8 million by end of CY and that is with many countries actively doing lockdowns to reduce deaths) and that was without the benefit flu had of already being widespread and established everywhere already around the world. Hence yes Covid is far more deadly. Because the Flu has so many strains that cannot be covered in a single vaccine it is nigh impossible to eradicate the flu currently, so we have had to accept it and learn to live with it as best we can. You could never isolate the entire world from the flu, hell they can't even do that effectively with covid and they are trying.

                          and FYI, it isn't 100 million. Flu numbers are hazy. !00 million is the upper end of the estimate, numbers are somewhere between 30 million and 100 million since the 1890's, the biggest variable being bad data on the spanish flu which is esitmated between 17 and 100 million.

                • @buderim11: I assume you are referring to how many people die every year, worldwide? If so it is actually more like 60 million people every year.

            • @1st-Amendment: So what you are suggesting is that the young and healthy are within their rights to infect the vulnerable. Or to protect the rights of the young and fit we should exclude the venerable from society?

              We should get rid of all vaccines survival of the fittest is where its at.

              • -1

                @tomfool:

                So what you are suggesting is that the young and healthy are within their rights to infect the vulnerable.

                Rights are defined in law, and there's no law that I'm aware of that offers legal protection from such things. Why do you think dying from the flu is ok but dying from Covid isn't?

                • @1st-Amendment: I don't, but the flu has vaccines and a significant portion of the population use them.

                  The World Health Organization estimates that 290,000 to 650,000 people die of flu-related causes every year worldwide so far covid has killed 1.4 million and that is with most countries having some restrictions in place. With no restrictions that number would have likely have been 4-5 times that

      • +38

        People don't have to travel overseas. They are free to not get the vaccine and wait a few years before getting and then travel overseas after that.

          • +23

            @SlavOz: Personally I don't plan to get vaccinated immediately myself. I'm going to wait a year or more and I accept that my decision will have consequences like not been able to travel to countries where they won't allow entry or use the services of private organisations.

            Travelling overseas is not a right. It is a privilege.

              • +13

                @SlavOz: You still have freedom of movement lol, you just can't move with Qantas. Build a boat, and row over to whereever you want to go.

                This isn't even the government regulating this, this is a private business, they can service whoever they want (outside of any anti-discrimination laws, which unfortunately anti-vac isn't apart of)

              • +4

                @SlavOz: I think the WA courts would disagree with you on that one

                Clive Palmer was thrown out because it's not considered a right.
                If the circumstances (global pandemic) could result in mass deaths then i believe it's everyone's right to not contract it . Just because someone selfish wanted to travel unvaccinated doesn't mean that everyone else playing by the rules should suffer.

                Smokers have been banned/phased out in the same way as their choices would harm other people.

            • @MrHyde: Citizens leaving and entering their country freely is a right.

              • +8

                @whooah1979: Anyone can leave - go buy a rowboat and travel wherever they want.

                It is not, however, a right of individuals to be carried without condition by an airline.

                • +2

                  @jmsu: Businesses can put anything they want in their t&c but that doesn't mean that it's lawful and enforceable under current laws.

                  • @whooah1979: Define lawful.

                    If someone or one of their staff contracted COVID on the plane due to the conditions on board and they could prove negligence (not forcing people to have a vaccine or be covid free) then Qantas would be up shit creek.

                    From a legal stand point it's a no brainer.

                  • +10

                    @SlavOz: Your argument goes from A to Z to 9 to 7 and then back to ¥.

                    • -6

                      @Vote for Pedro: It's called critical thinking. We need to know what precedent a vaccine rollout will set and how it could potentially be exploited in the future.

                      Humans are very creative bunch so when you set a blanket rule like "businesses can discriminate based on a person's unwillingness to give up their boidly autonomy for the greater good" , you open a whole can of worms that most of us can't even imagine.

                      You do realise that tyrannical governments or any foul intentions almost never materialise overnight? They happen over time as laws or society becomes accustomed to dangerous ideals.

                      • +1

                        @SlavOz: You’re one of those ‘I fink for myself, don’t be sheeple, do thems researches’

                        Being ignorant is not critical thinking. A YouTube video does not mean research.

                        Look, I know ‘they’ are after us all. Just trying to work out who they are. Have you hear the deep state is doing chemtrails?

              • +2

                @whooah1979: Citizens can leave Australia; but where will you go if other countries have vaccination as a condition of entry.

                I fully expect governments to provide regulations around testing and vaccinations for entry to their countries and airlines will follow those. I don't think Qantas will go down this path in isolation - it will be an industry wide change.

                • -6

                  @MrHyde:

                  Citizens can leave Australia; but where will you go if other countries have vaccination as a condition of entry.

                  Back to their home countries. Many of us have dual citizenship which means we have an fundamental right to enter, vaccinated or not. The government cannot keep us locked down in limbo ala Tom Hanks in The Terminal.

                  The same goes for citizens returning to Australia. We have a right to enter.

              • @whooah1979: With the correct visa and passport though, right?

                • @StalkingIbis: Citizens mean people with Australian citizenship. Visa holders can be refused entry as we saw in March 2020.

            • -2

              @MrHyde:

              Travelling overseas is not a right. It is a privilege.

              This is the problem with Internet experts, they know so much that simply isn't so:

              https://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/rights-and-freedoms/free…

              • @1st-Amendment: Might want to have a chat to Scomo then…
                Argues that state borders are impinging on peoples rights by supporting Palmer.
                Sets up a strict international border lockdown.

                Genius

              • +2

                @1st-Amendment: Thank you. I have learnt something today.

                Some things I found interesting in that link

                The freedom to leave a country pertains to both short-term, long-term and permanent departures. It cannot be made dependent on establishing a purpose or reason for leaving.

                We are currently not allowed to leave Australia unless we have a good reason to leave.

                This right can be restricted on any of the grounds in article 12(3) of the ICCPR, namely national security, public order, public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others.

                Public Health is mentioned as a reason for any of the freedom to movements to be restricted; which this would fall under.

              • +3

                @1st-Amendment: As an "internet expert", perhaps you should read the 3rd point:

                The above-mentioned rights shall not be subject to any restrictions except those which are provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order (ordre public), public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others, and are consistent with the other rights recognized in the present Covenant.

                • @one man clan: Yep I read it. Did you see the part that mentioned that Alan Joyce gets to decide? Nope me neither…

              • +1

                @1st-Amendment: I was going to post that human rights link. The US are currently fighting between freedom and government control, where the pivot is around controlling the spread of a deadly virus.
                The citizens have to forfeit some level of freedom and liberty to collectively defeat this together.

                I think this is why you're getting a lot of backlash because people are too used to living nanny state and never been under the oppression of a tyrannical government like the CCP

          • +2

            @SlavOz: I'm totally in favour of discrimination on public health grounds where there isn't an exemption in place. If people's religion as an example actively posed a health risk to others then they can get bent as well. The entire movement of anti-discrimination is that everyone deserves equal rights as long as they don't infringe on others - do you see how spreading COVID could infringe on other people's rights?

            Your example isn't the same as this current case - it's not that we think people who aren't vaccinated could spread special diseases, we know they can and which disease and it also isn't targeted based on race or religion. The issue with the example you've put forth is that black people didn't have special diseases and they weren't spreading them - if it had turned out that they had and these diseases crippled and killed heaps of people that's a very different story as opposed to the current state where it was simply a veil used to discriminate.

            You also can't carry an AK on Qantas flights so I guess we're making people who refuse to fly without their AK second class citizens?

            Do I think this would be an issue if the vaccine cost quite a bit of money and wasn't made available as part of Medicare? Yes, that clearly puts an unfair strain on the poor. Good thing we have a pretty good healthcare system and I have confidence the vaccine will be free

            • +1

              @sakurashu: "If people's religion as an example actively posed a health risk to others then they can get bent as well."
              spot on..and the law supports this.
              there are plenty of cases where peoples religions/beliefs are ignored if it has a health impact (e.g. denying treatment to your child because of your stupid religious ideas).
              parents get charged for this (or doctors just ignore their beliefs and do the treatment anyway) because your rights stop (even over your own kids) where they hurt someone else.

              i dont think religion should even be a protected class as its a choice plain and simple….but society doesnt agree ….yet.

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