Discrimination against white heterosexual males in academia (etc.) in Australia

I posted the text below in an old thread many months ago, and expected a torrent of scathing remarks, but also a few enlightening responses from suitably experienced people. I suspect that unfortunately no one much saw the text though, because the original thread I posted it in was essentially long 'dead and buried' by that point. So I'm posting it here, as a 'new topic', in the hope that it will attract some comments—preferably from peeps with relevant experience, not just simplistic 'gut feelings' and 'knee-jerk reactions' from naive idealists. Here's what I posted:

"… thatguyfromthatplace (refreshingly/commendably) had the stones to state candidly, clearly and concisely what any white heterosexual male who has been employed in any vaguely 'academic' field for the last 30 years will tell you. We have been actively discriminated against for decades in Australia, when it comes to employment/promotion into higher-paying/upper-level positions, in favour of so-called 'minority groups'. Often—completely erroneously—even simply being a woman qualifies as being a member of a 'minority group'; even though there are more women in Australia than there are men!

There are numerous examples of this now long-institutionalised practice, which is officially dubbed 'positive discrimination', actually written into enforceable employment policy in Australia in many diverse contexts. There is simply no argument about whether it goes on in Australia … quite the opposite, active discrimination against NON-minority groups (i.e., white heterosexual males; any deviation from that 'trifecta' generally qualifies any individual as a member of a 'minority group') is actually mandated in numerous employment contexts. Some of the obvious ones are universities and numerous government work-places, but there are many more.

It's bizarre to me, and many other white heterosexual males that the answer to perceived historical discrimination against 'minority groups' (including 'all women', utterly erroneously) has been deemed to be, for the last few decades, to 'swing the pendulum back the other way and severely, actively, and officially institutionalise/sanction (and in many cases, worse; actually mandate) discrimination against white heterosexual males."

Comments

          • +1

            @GnarlyKnuckles: So you have a hypothetical example. Do you have an actual real world example of a policy you object to?

            I was going to say the same thing as Christoffel. Because ‘equality’ means treating people equally, so I can’t see why

            Racial and gender equality in the workplace is ridiculous

            In your hypothetical example, assuming ZAN and KOR people have the same skills and abilities, if equality of treatment was in place an equitable outcome in the workplace would be representation at a ratio of 90:10 respectively. Real world examples of having quotas might be at least 30% of a board needing to be female where women, make up about 51% of the population. These practices have come about because historically white men have been over represented in some settings, not necessarily because they are most meritorious, but due to discrimination in their favour. So I guess if you think this is inequitable, one could set a quota for at least 30% men for the same board - the reason this doesn’t happen is that it hasn’t been needed to achieve adequate representation from men. I suspect over time once quotas have been around for long enough to create a more equitable society they won’t be needed. Enforced quotas in most settings (outside of boards) aren’t very common anyway.

            • +1

              @morse: morse: With all due respect, you are making the classic/basic error of assuming that equal numbers of men and women actually want to do every type of job. That is simply not the case.

              Lots more women prefer to teach than men.
              Lots more men prefer to be plumbers than women.
              Lots more women prefer to be midwives than men.
              Lots more men prefer to be prison guards than men.

              The list goes on and on, and it is a matter of the personal preferences/choices of these groups (i.e. men and women).

              Put more simply/in a nutshell, the fact that there are not approximately equal numbers of male and female midwives out there does not 'demonstrate' that males are being discriminated against in the midwife industry. This seems to be a point that quite a few peeps in this thread can't seem to grasp.

              • +1

                @GnarlyKnuckles: Still no specific examples of these written policies you speak of?

                Just post a link or two or three to back up your claims. This shouldn’t be hard since you feel so well versed on the topic and say that it’s so widespread.

                My reference to representation was actually addressing your really skewed and outlandish ZAN and KOR non-example to point out the flaws in your logic. This is something you brought up and are now struggling to explain your previous flawed example in reference to equality.

                You have 0 evidence for your ‘lots more women/men’ comments. But just say that is the case, Prior to equality strategies to promote more women in medicine, obstetrics (same subject matter as midwifery) was dominated by men, now there are more female obstetricians. Back in the roaring forties I’m sure you would have been that delight at dinner parties claiming that women simply don’t want to do that work.

                As an aside across this thread you keep writing things like

                can't seem to grasp

                As if you’re some sort of intellectual giant schooling the masses 🙄 🤣People are ‘grasping’ they are just not agreeing.

                examples of policies with reference material please

                • @morse: Kindly read on/see below, Mr morse … I provided exactly what you seek in this thread, many hours ago. Here's a quick 'starter', to wet your appetite:

                  https://www.9news.com.au/national/v-line-gets-nod-to-target-…

                • @morse: morse: Re 'As if you’re some sort of intellectual giant schooling the masses 🙄 🤣People are ‘grasping’ they are just not agreeing.' …

                  1. I certainly have never purported to be any sort of 'intellectual giant'.

                  2. Perhaps you are being misled by the unfortunately overly simplistic manner in which the OzB website displays the '+' count (for want of a better way to refer to that). I have long argued that it should simply show the number of 'pozzes' and the number of 'negs', because then it would be more representative of the actual situation/collective opinions of the 'voters'. Instead though, a 'neg cancels a poz' and vice-versa … You may have pre-empted where I'm going here. A highly contentious post that attracts 100 pozzes and 104 negs will simply appear as '-4'. This can make it 'seem like' there is zero support for the post, and 100% condemnation of it; when in fact there is almost an even split.

                  If you click the grey word 'votes' below each individual post, you will see the actual number of votes that have been cast. If you do that, you will discover that your assertion that "People are ‘grasping’ they are just not agreeing" is entirely erroneous.

                  Peace out.

          • @GnarlyKnuckles: I asked to clarify what you mean. Expecting 50% representation is from a 10% minority isn’t what I’d call equal representation. I also don’t know of real cases in Australia where this is the case, so I asked for an example. But the sounds of it you’re saying there are lot’s of instances.

            • @[Deactivated]: Christhoff: I respectfully invite you to read my extensive post below (a reply to PAEz I think), in which I provide various links/examples and explain exactly how it has come to be that it is in fact perfectly legal for employers to discriminate on the basis of gender and race when recruiting employees.

              After I posted that stuff I remembered another glaring/blatant example of this from about a year ago, perpertrated by V-line, and completely sanctioned by Australian law/V-Cat. Check it out:

              https://www.9news.com.au/national/v-line-gets-nod-to-target-…

        • +5

          Simply because people should be employed based on their ability to do the job, rather than their skin colour, or what's between their legs.

          • @brendanm: Correct. But when people are making the decisions, they’re not always going to make decisions based on those skills alone. There’s been plenty of studies looking into things like men vs women and perceptions of performance, or using identical resumes but changing the names to see if they got an interview. If you had a computer hiring people you’d likely get what you’re talking about, but currently we rely on people. And people sometimes are very biased, due to racism, sexism or their own life experiences. People still deny the existence of sexism or racism in the face of masses of evidence. Sometimes those people are in positions of power. Sometimes they make the hiring decisions. Racist John is more likely to pick 25 year old white Ross than 25 year old Mohammad even if they have identical skills and experiences. Just because you may think yourself not racist or sexist, it doesn’t mean every single hiring manager in the Australia isn’t.

            • +4

              @VictoriousBboy: Mandating quotas isn't the fix for this.

              • -1

                @brendanm: So what’s your idea then? I’m sure you’ve got a list of short, medium and long term solutions so impressive that equality will be complete by 2025. I’ll wait.

                • +1

                  @VictoriousBboy: I don't have one. Just because someone can see something not working, doesn't mean they have a solution for the problem. I won't just make it up and claim it will work like some do.

                  Also, you aren't after equality, you are wanting equity.

            • +1

              @VictoriousBboy: Sorry to 'burst your righteous bubble' a bit B-boy, but check this out:

              https://www.themandarin.com.au/80790-positive-discrimination…

              This part says it all:

              'There is discrimination in Australian Public Service recruitment, but it appears to generally favour women and candidates from minority groups, according to an experimental trial of blind recruiting with 2100 participants from 14 federal agencies.'

              A study with n = 2100 is pretty much a " lay down Misère' ", when it comes to whether or not the result is indicative of genuine bias. When it comes to employment by the Australian Public Service their clearly is … against white males.

              • +2

                @GnarlyKnuckles: You’re right. White males are the most disadvantaged group in society. A single study on something you didn’t even mention in your original comment is proof. You seriously need to get off the Trumpian white male victim story dude, it’s really pathetic. Honestly. I’m baffled a grown adult who claims a level of intelligence is this daft. You look at one study or your own experiences and ignore all the evidence to the contrary and then claim to be in academia? Your level of critical thinking would result in a first year undergrad failing.

                You simply cannot look at your own observations in isolation and then make it seem like young white men have it tough and women or people of colour don’t. The job market is shit for all young people. I know people with masters degrees and extensive experience who can’t get a foot in the door. There is something like 15 people wanting work for every 1 job. 7 of those might be young white dudes, 6 women and 2 skilled migrants. 14 people still miss out. Universities are churning out graduates like there is no tomorrow to make more and more money, when there are no jobs at the end of it. When I finished an honours degree, I was unemployed for almost a year. And I had extensive experience working and volunteering in my field, including involvement in research. I’m not a man. I also had a bad time. So don’t come out like white guys have it so tough. Everyone does. No one hired me because of my genitals. Now I’ve been ranked in the top group of grads in my state because of hard work, networking and a commitment to continual improvement. Perhaps it might also be useful for you to look at that study in which men are rated as more competent workers than women and women needing to be twice as good to get the same recognition as men - perhaps hiring managers know this and want a dedicated worker. Or perhaps it’s old guys like you hiring attractive females, knowing they have power over them :-) for an academic, you certainly do very little questioning or deep thinking.

            • -1

              @VictoriousBboy: Check the results of this huge (n = 2100) study out VB-boy:

              https://www.themandarin.com.au/80790-positive-discrimination…

              It does indeed provide very compelling empirical evidence of the type of employment bias you allude to operating 'en masse' in the Australian Public Service (i.e. 'systemic tax-payer-sponsored discrimination'). What I'd be interested in your opinion on, if you'd care to share it, is the fact that to the great surprise of the peeps who instigated/conducted the study that bias was entirely in the opposite direction to that which you describe. I.e. white males were discriminated against.

      • +1

        This was the least thought out response, but because it agrees with you, you commend it. You're not here for discussion, you're actually a loser holy.

        • +3

          Just include a comment about those damned lefties (cringe.) and he'll like your response!

        • -1

          NatoTomato: Erm … may I ask exactly which comment you are referring to? Do please note also that it is not at all uncommon for peeps to commend posts they agree with. In fact it's par for the course. Do you yourself not commend posts that you agree with? For the record I do also commend posts I disagree with, and quite often at that; particularly if they are stated coherently, genuinely, and respectfully.

    • +3

      Yeah, who wants any of that racial or gender equality. Why should businesses who are collectively milking the public out of billions of dollars each and every year have to pay a bit extra to try and include all Australian's in their workforce, it's ridiculous.

      • -1

        As the saying goes Austrianbags, 'Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit'. May I respectfully suggest that you actually read at least a few of the posts above in this thread before clogging it up with irrelevant stuff that clearly demonstrates that you have not done that? The central point of my initiating post at the start of this thread is that equal opportunity is a good thing. That fact has clearly escaped you.

  • +5

    Sending you a hug. 2020 has been a tough year.

  • +11

    Sometimes to balance a scale you have to dump a lot more on one side.
    But other than that, prove it.
    Show us a list of where you work on recent promotions, or how about just a list of how many males and females in upper roles.
    Otherwise its just your gut feeling.
    Someone once told me people have a habit of finding what theyre looking for….in this case because your upset about it you notice what you want to see.

    • +7

      OP is too busy yelling at kids (obviously not "white heterosexual male" ones) for not talking properly:
      https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/432045

      • +2

        But just think, if we actually listened to him maybe he could solve all the worlds problems, he certainly sees them all.

      • LOL, I would never yell at kids cheapcans, or anyone else for that matter … but I am flattered that you have found me intriguing enough to do the 'OzBo' equivalent of 'Googling' me :)

        I'm sorry that the worst 'dirt' you could dig up was my appeal for information/insight about the 'you know' (etc.) scourge that has swept the youth (and now sadly, many of the adults) of Australia …

        It's, like, you know, a real downer for you that, you know, there wasn't like, I guess, literally, you know, obviously, something more for you to, you know, like, find …

        ;-P

    • +4

      Aaaah, Pez-wix (btw Pezmo said I'm allowed to call him/her that peeps, so don't jump on me about this …)

      1. Whether you realise it or not, your comment is a perfect and crystal clear demonstration of the misguided thinking (and subsequent mandated policies) that I am talking about. When you refer to 'dumping a lot more on one side', what you are alluding to absolutely clearly and unequivocally is what is known as 'positive discrimination'. For the poor young blokes on the wrong side of it (who have never discriminated against anyone/were born way after that all happened), there is nothing 'positive' about it at all. They are simply actively discriminated against. The old adage "Two wrongs don't make a right" springs to mind here.

      2. Re 'But other than that, prove it.' … I'm not sure what you are referring to Pez. Are you suggesting that there are not positive discrimination 'parameters/policies' that are mandated in various academic and employment contexts? At both university and government employment levels? As many others will assure you here, there certainly are; that is not a matter that is in dispute or requires 'proving'. Such policies have been in place for many years.

      3. Re '… just a list of how many males and females in upper roles.', this is the predictable 'frog leap' that I expected to have to counter, and I'm surprised that it didn't get (erroneously) brought up until the fourth or fifth comment. The fact is that I am not talking about the 'endpoint' at all. I am not in any way suggesting that there are equal numbers of men and women in higher positions, etc. ALL I am talking about is the active (and sometimes rather extreme) discrimination against white heterosexual males that is currently experienced by unfortunate young guys trying to embark on a career in academia/science/etc. in Australia. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, these are people who are being actively and severely discriminated against, essentially as scapegoats for things that happened decades before they were even born; or perhaps to achieve some sort of 'Utopian ideal' of equal representation in the work-place.

      I ask you: Given that these guys have done nothing wrong, is there any defensible reason why they should be actively discriminated against, in their efforts to embark on a career? Is it fair to these people, that current 'positive discrimination' policies that operate in various fields in Australia do exactly that?

      • +1

        If theres two people to fill a role with equal abilities then Im cool with them picking the one that isnt a white male….to a point. If it goes on to long and now the white males are the minority in the work place then maybe it should change. You have to pick someone based on something and why cant equal representation be a factor. Yeah I feel for the white guy that in the end lost out coz hes white, but I also feel for all the other people (women, immigrants, lbtqAlphabets, uglies, woteva) who have had to put up with the opposite for freakn years. If a white male with more skills is overlooked because a lesser of another group is picked just because of the group theyre in, then thats just utter crap.

        • +4

          A noble thought, though it rarely ever is “the same” it’s an active seek the minority in place of the majority and damn the consequences.

          When I was in research approx 10 years ago, women outnumbered men 3:1.

    • Defo' not just a 'gut feeling' Pezlaxian, kindly refer to a lengthy post I have added to this thread quite a bit further on, in response to a subsequent request of yours for actual examples/clarification of the relevant Australian law etc.

      After I added that post, I also recalled this additional blatant example of extreme legally sanctioned discrimination; and all funded by the Victorian tax-payer. A mate remarked to me today while we were having a laugh about this:

      'So not only are Aussie blokes being totes discriminated against by the Victorian government; if they're tax-payers, they're actually sponsoring it!' (I had not thought of that myself, but I guess it's true …):

      https://www.9news.com.au/national/v-line-gets-nod-to-target-…

      • Im answering that right now actually ;P

  • +8

    OP ….your knuckles wouldn't be gnarly if you stopped dragging them whilst walking …

    • +1

      Theyre gnarly from him chewing them in anger. Didnt notice it was Knuckles, he seems to be in a grumpy mood alot ;P Hey from the Pez-meister ;P

      • +1

        Chuckle :P

        In fact, I'm an extremely relaxed and happy bloke pezmotron. If I was any more relaxed, my heart would probably stop beating!

        • But your always complaining ;P ….or maybe I should say trolling ;P
          pezmotron, I like that one :)

          • @PAEz: Not 'complaining' pez-train, just debating/discussing. Certainly never 'trolling' … I hope you can see by my reasoned and patient responses here that my purpose is not to make anyone 'angry' or 'bully' anyone (I think that's essentially what a troll is in 'internet speak', isn't it?). I'm glad you like 'Pezmotron' .. I'll try to remember to use that one from now on ;-P

            • @GnarlyKnuckles: A good troll will always pick something they can argue/discuss (never know what the diff is there) in a rational way and preferably with facts.
              Its like how Louis C.K would base his routines on things that are true, but hard to accept or hear.
              I love a good troll ;P

              • @PAEz: Really? You seem to be describing something I would liken to a 'clever antagonist' or a 'social agitator', or something like that. Such peeps have made many very positive contributions to society throughout history (think 'the suffragettes', 'Martin Luthor King', etc.). I was under the impression that an 'internet troll' was not someone like that … am I wrong about this?

                • @GnarlyKnuckles: Im sure Martin Luthor Kings opinions made a lot of people angry.
                  Just because something makes someone angry doesnt mean they are wrong.
                  Note I said a good troll, not just someone that says mean things.
                  A troll is (to me, cant be bothered looking it up) someone that says things to provoke reactions out of people for their amusement. A good troll can keep that going on and on and on, laughing all the way. You dont even have to agree with what your saying.

                  • @PAEz: Hmmm … I think the term 'internet troll' has a totally different meaning than your "kinda' cheery" one, pez-wez-where's-my-fez… At least that's what I've been led to believe by the media. The definition of 'internet troll' supplied by 'Wikipaedia' is a bit more akin to what I thought it meant …

                    • @GnarlyKnuckles: The wiki example is of a typical troll, I was talking of a good troll. Anyone can say the opposite of what someone likes to get a reaction, a good troll can argue the point, thus creating a nice flame war like the wiki said. The wiki also says for political reasons and what not, but I dont see that as a troll at all, thats political espionage and other things to me (I wouldnt call what Russia does as trolling, that belittles the whole thing). Ive always been under the impression it was for the LOLZ.

                      I cant keep up with the ever evolving meaning of things…..and I dont watch the news or even read media much, its all to depressing and makes me mad.

                      • @PAEz: Hmmm interesting .. I've always been under the impression that an internet troll's mission/intention was to generate the exact opposite of LOLZ … i.e., to intentionally upset people. I have also never heard of the notion of a 'good troll' (but it sounds cute and reminds me of little dolls with funky hair and toothy grins that were invented in the 1980s!) … are they kinda' like a … 'good witch'? Maybe a 'good troll' is one that lets ALL the goats across the bridge, ALL the time, even if they don't have anything to pay him/her?

                        ;-P

                        • @GnarlyKnuckles: Good troll as in good at trolling.
                          LOLZ as in lolz for them (the troll).
                          Im sorry if Im not explaining this simply enough for you.
                          Your not a robot who cant understand the way people talk, stop pretending you are just to continue an argument….thats what a troll would do ;P

                          Going to bed now, feel free to comment on any of my comments and we can continue this tomorow…..or even better, come up with another argument discussion, this has been fun ;P

                          • +1

                            @PAEz: Aaah OK, I get what you mean now. For the record though, I did not start this thread this for my own LOLZ (although your witty banter has in fact provided me with quite a few!). I genuinely wanted to hear what other peeps thought about the issue. I did try to word it such that it would not be instantly 'bombarded' with endless posts declaring that it was clearly just 'sour grapes'/that I had an 'axe to grind' etc. I was unsuccessful in that endeavor as it turns out, but at least I tried.

                            Maybe tomozza a few fresh opinions will be brought to the table … it will be interesting to see. I hope the thread is not simply flooded tomorrow by 'one-liner' posts from peeps who read the title, but read none of the actual dialogue before 'jumping to the end' and inserting a one-liner that begins with 'tldr' and (predicatbly) misses the point entirely.

    • Re: 'OP ….your knuckles wouldn't be gnarly if you stopped dragging them whilst walking …'

      Nah, they still would be. I'm pretty ancient.

  • +1

    Everyone will always have inherent bias based on to many factors to count.

    Unless we use a random number generator for everything when it comes to opportunities in life then we'll just have to live with it and mitigate it where possible.

    • +1

      Thank you for your input khelddars.

      Re '… then we'll just have to live with it and mitigate it where possible.', assuming that you are referring to discrimination, my entire point is that ludicrously, the exact opposite is happening in Australia (and has been for many years now) because discrimination is mandated in numerous contexts. Far from 'mitigating it' currently mandated policy is 'reinforcing it'/'necessitating it'. This is an extremely untoward state of affairs, and it should not be happening.

      • +1

        Yep

        Lets just burn it to the ground and start again.

        • Erm … can you perhaps elaborate on that a touch?!?

  • +3

    Can someone provide a MS Paint summary of this?

  • +12

    You're spot on mate. Nothing is merit based anymore. It's all about pleasing the loud leftists. Squeaky wheel and all. Too many undeserving people are chosen for positions way above their calibre just because they are a minority or a certain gender/non gender. And then they can't be performance managed and fired because they are minority. And strangely these minorities are taking over the workplace and becoming the majority. The white male is definitely the most discriminated against in current times.

    • WORD, bro.

    • +3

      And strangely these minorities are taking over the workplace and becoming the majority.

      You see these minorities as taking over because you see all the different minorities as one group.

      • +2

        It also comes across that @Traveller107 assumes that people from minorities in the workplace got their job because they are from that minority, rather than their talents and abilities.

        • +10

          As a woman from a minority background who worked in HR while pursuing my masters degree I am well aware of how and why many minorities get their jobs. And it's definitely not based on merit. It's based on diversity quotas employers have to fill. And when one gets in it just becomes their friends and family club.

    • ‘Too many undeserving people are chosen for positions way above their calibre just because they are a minority or a certain gender/non gender.’

      Can you provide evidence of some real world examples of this?

      • +17

        I can give you two recent examples of this happening to me.

        I recently applied for two, part time casual jobs. The first one at Bunnings.

        I am a middle aged white male. I have 3 trade qualifications that would directly benefit the position I was applying for at Bunnings a few years ago.

        I was short listed into the final 14 and 8 people got the positions. In my group interview, there was 5 women and 2 guys. The second interview group was 6 women and 1 guy. 3 of the final 14 were male.

        None of the female applicants had a trade. A quarter of them were (the whitest I have ever seen) Aboriginal/indigenous. They ranged in age from 18 to about 40. Their common excuse for wanting the job… “I want the discount card.”

        Of the men, we were all trade qualified in some respect. We were all white and aged between late 20’s to early 60’s. The common excuse for wanting the job… “I want to help people using my trade knowledge.”

        None of the males were selected for positions. All of the indigenous applicants were hired.

        Second position I applied for was to help out at my local school area, as there were no crossing guards at a majority of any of the primary schools.

        I have previous experience in doing this position. I was literally told at the interview that I would probably not get the position as they were actively seeking to recruit “more female, indigenous and disabled applicants” and I would only be considered if they didn’t receive enough applicants to fill the positions from the demographics listed. I was told this before the interview started and asked if I still wanted to continue to the interview. (I was the only male applicant.)

        I didn’t get the position even though they scored me on their interview test sheets (1~5, 1=Bad, 5=Outstanding) as mostly 4 and 5’s and was told by both interviewers I was the highest applicant score they had ever processed. All 4 of the open positions went to 3 middle aged white women and 1 (very very white) indigenous lady. One of the ladies told me that she failed her first interview so badly that they gave here some study notes to come back and have a second go.

        These were for two piss ant positions that were filled based on racial and gender specific qualities. This was not about hiring the right person for the job, but more about hiring people to appease some “woke” agenda.

        I also work for a reasonably large company that does a range of engineering and mechanical maintenance, and I know the boss is being offered something in the way of incentives to give preferential treatment to non male and non white job seekers. We currently have two of these “preferential treatment” employees, and they are the worst. They were picked based on their genitals and ethnicity rather than their education, demonstrated ability, industry experience or previous qualifications. They are slow, unsafe and generally need spoon feeding throughout the shift.

        I want the best people for the job, and if that means I can pick from anywhere, that is fine, but when I am told I have to unfairly compete with someone who is undereducated, unskilled and they get a leg up based on “equality”, this is not equality. Equality would be looking at all the applicants and picking the best candidate based on their demonstrated qualifications and abilities, rather than if they had a vagina or a great great great great grandmother who was indigenous.

        • +10

          And THIS is exactly what is happening. People choose to ignore it because it benefits them. I am 1/4 Aboriginal, and have a little darkness to me but nowhere near as much as mum. I also have Eastern European in me.

          My cousin applied for med school. Failed GAMSAT 3 times. Threw in the race card and hey presto he was in no questions asked! Like (profanity) off!

          Super pasty white “indigenous” people piss me the (profanity) off. They know nothing of the culture or connection. They know no struggles. They have no link. They are the broken chain. We call them economic indigenous.

          • -1

            @HelpMeiCantSee: Would you feel differently about your cousin if for example he was an Aboriginal person who grow up in a remote community, had English as a second or third language, didn’t have access to the best schools etc.? As I think that’s why these allowances are made. If the allowances are removed, people who really have been disadvantaged miss out on the opportunities. That and there are benefits to having Aboriginal doctors. The med school wouldn’t take on a student they didn’t think would succeed as struggling students are a big liability.

            • +4

              @morse:

              As I think that’s why these allowances are made.

              Holy shit, it's medical school. You think they should let in incompetent people because they have had some sort of disadvantage?

              • @brendanm: See my response to helpmeicantsee below. So no - not incompetent. That’s pretty offensive to the Indigenous doctors who have been accepted into a designated place or scholarship not only based on GAMSAT. I think most unis actually apply the same criteria for Indigenous applicants, usyd has a different cut off for the GAMSAT criteria.

            • +1

              @morse: No, because if he doesn’t have the smarts for it, he doesn’t have the smarts for it. Whatever the cause. This faux guilt is perpetuating the cycle not demolishing it.

              The schools take on the students because it’s big money, quit kidding yourself.

              • @HelpMeiCantSee: So my understanding of having designated places and scholarships for Indigenous people in medicine is that they are still assessed as being smart enough, but they might not have the most competitive GAMSAT score compared to others (they may though) - it’s a very competitive field, so they are still going to be smart, capable people. Also GAMSAT is not the only criteria for entry. Can’t comment on this person’s cousin, but I think it’s highly unlikely that the medical school would enrol a student they didn’t think was up to it. I equally can’t comment on the cousins Aboriginality, but if he was exploiting it, obviously that’s not right. What I was saying is that it’s widely accepted to have programs to get Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people into medicine and healthcare more generally. Isn’t it up to each medical school to define who they accept into the course and for what reasons? They are the experts in teaching medicine and work in close consultation with the AMA and hospitals on medical workforce needs. Are you suggesting you know better than the Doctors/professors who make these decisions?

        • +1

          This was not about hiring the right person for the job, but more about hiring people to appease some “woke” agenda.

          Maybe they just don’t want people like you

          • +9

            @BigBirdy:

            Maybe they just don’t want people like you

            Correct. They don't want people like me. They have "woke" quotas to fill. I don't fit any of their "woke" criteria, so they "don't want me" because I certainly don't help help fill quote spots.

        • +1

          I don’t know if you need an ‘excuse’ for wanting a job, but lol re wanting the discount, who doesn’t want a Bunnings discount?

          They may very well have considered gender and being Indigenous when hiring these staff for a variety of reasons. They might also have valued different attributes of these people to what you have e.g. customer service, people skills over being trade qualified for the Bunnings one. Being great with kids for the crossing guard one. there doesn’t seem to be a lack of white men working at my local Bunnings.

          Does your boss feel the same way about what you are calling ‘preferential treatment’ employees? Maybe there was something else about the workplace culture they were trying to address by brining diversity to the team.

        • ughh was this after the libs paid companies to hire young unqualified casuals?

          you did say recent, which is why this thread is grooming fascists

        • +1

          Thank you very much for your extensive contribution here pegaxs. I hope it spells it out for some of the 'head-in-the-clouders' here that this issue is very real, and it is rife. Some here seem to be of the misguided belief that such practices would simply not be allowed to go on under Australian law. Such practices are in fact completely sanctioned under Australian law (and have been for more than a decade), because of the inclusion of what is known as '‘special measures’ (which is loose code for 'positive discrimination') written directly into numerous actual law Acts; including (somewhat ironically), the Racial Discrimination Act!

          Re the gender thing, the mob currently operating Melbourne's metropolitan public train network are a prime example. About 18 months ago they advertised for a 'new fleet' of train drivers. No experience driving trains was necessary, they were to be trained from the 'ground up'. My brother in-law (qualified mechanic, artic'-trucky license, numerous other potentially relevant qualifications) applied. He was contacted (by phone, not in writing!) and informed that regrettably, the positions were currently only being offered to women. He immediately inquired as to whether that was in fact illegal under Australian law. They informed him in no uncertain terms that it certainly was not, and that they had acquired assurances from the government to that effect before embarking on the recruitment drive. The reason they cited consisted of just two words. 'Special measures'.

        • +1

          Dunno about the crossing person, but the requirements for the job seem to be “able to walk and hold a sign”. Not sure how much anyone cares about experience, more if it makes the parents feel good.

          But the Bunnings one it’s blatantly obvious why you didn’t get the job. Think about it, do Bunnings want someone who will spend 45 minutes chatting to a customer helping them know the best way to sell a product or someone who shifts them quickly out the store, with merchandise and sans cash?

          Plus, why are you applying for a job at Bunnings with 3 trades under your belt? Are you likely to stay there once a better role comes along or are you just looking for something temporary to fill some time? Are you going to be a pain for your boss, who will know less than you, to deal with? Are they going to train you, find you an apron and have you quit in 3 months?

          The discount card thing? That’s awesome. They already shop at Bunnings, they know where stuff is and will spend money they earn in the store. Passing on knowledge? How does that make Bunnings a profit?

          Plus the diversity is obvious too. Bunnings has no problem getting every 50 year old white man in the country to come into the store. They want everyone coming in though. More diverse staff will make a more diverse audience feel comfortable.

          You’re looking at it as if you’re the perfect person to help customers with your experience. But Bunnings want to make money and have a drone that answers simple questions in where the stock is and stack shelves.

      • morse: re 'Can you provide evidence of some real world examples of this?'

        So far in this thread we now have:

        1. Some clearly straight words from Traveller107, above, who has kindly divulged quite enough information about herself to assure anyone that she is simply 'telling it as she experienced it' as a human resources employee (i.e. she is not biased against women or minorities).

        2. A clearly genuine lengthy and informative account from pegaxs (see below), which is a real eye-opener with regard to the extent to which this scourge has pervaded private enterprise, as well as government/academic institutions.

        3. The legal stuff/examples I have provided in a lengthy post below, which includes numerous links that detail actual contents of Australian Law Acts that sanction discrimination based on gender and race.

        4. Recent and crystal clear examples of this 'legally sanctioned discrimination' in action, such as this one:

        https://www.9news.com.au/national/v-line-gets-nod-to-target-…

        Is this enough 'real world examples' for you, morse?

        • Seriously? You claim to be an academic and your reference is Nine news?

          Send a link to a government or academic institutions actual policy
          Something like this https://www1.health.nsw.gov.au/pds/ActivePDSDocuments/PD2017…
          Then refer to the parts of the policy you think is the problem and then the group can assess your claims in reference to the actual source.

          Or for your

          legal stuff/examples

          and

          Australian Law Acts

          Post a link to the legislation (all Australian legislation is publicly available) or cases (http://www.austlii.edu.au/) and quote the part that you’re bothered by.

          • -1

            @morse: Are you suggesting that that news report was false? It certainly was not, and that is why it was not retracted/there was no subsequent outcry about 9 News reporting false news etc. You appear to be grasping at straws now, morsy-horsy. I have posted links to things that will be readily digestible by peeps who might be disinclined to 'wade through'/attempt to interpret actual legislation. That said, I have also posted direct links to Australian Government explanations of their legislation, and the names/content of actual legal acts, etc.

            You now appear to be 'frantically back-pedaling' in a feeble attempt to deny the bleedingly obvious.

            Peace, love and Mung beans, muchacho

            • +1

              @GnarlyKnuckles:

              morsy-horsy

              🤔

              Any how not back pedalling - I’d just like to see one actual policy. Perhaps whichever one got your knickers in a knot about to prompt this rant.

              End of the day I support policies that help people who are disadvantaged to have opportunities they would not have had due to unfair biases or historical inequities.
              I support targeted scholarships and grants (don’t worry, they still have plenty that white men can apply for)
              I support efforts to remove biases from recruitment processes
              I support quotas for boards (less convinced about workforce quotas)
              Equally I support anything that will help white men when they are actually disadvantaged e.g. employment and housing programs for homeless who might be white men. Scholarships for disadvantaged people (including men).
              In reality though these policies and strategies are rarer than you make out and most progress has been made just through promoting inclusivity.

              I have some wonderful friends who are female engineers and just awesome at what they do. I also have wonderful female friends and colleagues who are amazing doctors in various fields. In the past these industries were male dominated and now everyone gets to benefit by having super smart women working alongside super smart men. We get the best women as well as the best men, meaning overall the talent is improved. I’m definitely glad we have access to these incredible women in medicine that we didn’t have in the past - I was extra happy to have a female obstetrician, which was a rarity in the past.

              • +1

                @morse: Morsers:

                Re:

                'I’d just like to see one actual policy.'

                You do understand that I am not privy to the privately constructed policies of companies, unless they're actually featured in the public domain for some reason? I.e., like this one (here is 'one actual policy', that is on the record and has been legally ruled on/sanctioned by V-CAT; as clearly stated in a press release that was made available to the entire country):

                'Victoria's regional rail service will be allowed to specifically try to recruit women as train drivers and in other roles, despite equal opportunity laws.'

                For reasons unknown you decided to suggest above that perhaps this was not true/it was some sort of 'fake news', but I can assure you it is true; as will V-Line themselves, and the Victorian Government.

                Re:

                '… don’t worry, they still have plenty that white men can apply for':

                Applying for something and actually getting it are two very different things. I worked at a prestigious medical research institute for over a decade, and every year they offered about 10 'international travel grants' to all the PhD students. Without going into the 'maths of the thing', I noticed an extreme disparity between the distribution of male and female applicants, and the distribution of male and female applicants who were actually successful (usually 1 or 2 males got a grant and 8 or 9 females got a grant, but one year they must have forgot the tokenism, and there was not a single guy on the stage at all!). I acquired all the historical records and performed a statistical analysis, and it very clearly demonstrated that major discrimination had gone on against blokes for at least a decade. I took this information to the head of the institute, and he looked a bit embarrassed for about 5 seconds, then conceded that the general consensus (he didn't say among whom!) was that 'it comes across better when we send girls to the international conferences' (his exact words, not mine; I would not have used the word 'girls'). Re your allusion to getting my 'knickers in a knot' above morse-code, this one defo' did; because I had entered a 'horse into the race' three years running (the same poor guy), and every time we worked on his application together for weeks/were sure it could not possibly fail 'this time' …

                Re:

                'I support efforts to remove biases from recruitment processes

                I support quotas for boards (less convinced about workforce quotas)'

                You cannot 'support' both of those things, because they are clearly mutually exclusive.

                Re:

                'Scholarships for disadvantaged people (including men).'

                There are numerous scholarships available exclusively to women, in numerous fields. There are zero scholarships available exclusively to men, in any field.

                Re:

                'In reality though these policies and strategies are rarer than you make out and most progress has been made just through promoting inclusivity.'

                I suggest that that is completely false, and I respectfully ask you what you are basing that assertion on? Refer to my post below, re the huge study (sample size > 2000 people) that unequivocally demonstrated that white males are discriminated against when it comes to recruitment into the Australian Public Service (an absulutely huge Australian/tax-payer-funded employer). Refer to the legal ruling that it's fine for 'V-line' (another huge tax-payer-funded organisation) to preferentially hire women instead of men; for no logical reason at all. Refer to the post above indicating that huge commercial chains such as Bunnings are engaging in such practices, no doubt sanctioned by the numerous clauses in Australian Law Acts alluding ambiguously to 'special measures’. Refer to the post by an experience HR officer above, in which she candidly reveals that peeps were hired foremost based on 'quotas'; not merit.

                I reject out of hand your somewhat cavalier assertion that discrimination against white males is '… rarer than [I] make out'.

                Quite the contrary, I suggest that it is 'far more prevalent than you choose to believe'.

                Peace, love and much beans …

                • +1

                  @GnarlyKnuckles:

                  'I support efforts to remove biases from recruitment processes
                  I support quotas for boards (less convinced about workforce quotas)'
                  You cannot 'support' both of those things, because they are clearly mutually exclusive

                  Recruitment bias reduction for job recruitment, quotas for boards. Boards and workforce are separate issues for me. Boards need to be representative for things like gov decisions. I’m not convinced by quotas for most job types. I think in many scenarios the quota might be met naturally through a merit based process, ie there are actually intelligent hard working people who aren’t white men who get jobs on their own merit.

                  Sorry about your dude missing out on his travel scholarship. One thing to be wary of is that stating your opinions the way you have might turn people off you. Even if everything you say is factually correct (I think it’s a bit skewed tbh), you come across as quite black and white, not very flexible/open to others ideas. This might disadvantage you and those associated with you, like your ‘horse’. I’m going to guess taking your statistical analysis to the head of institute, didn’t make you popular. If you do this kind of thing regularly, talk to people the way you have in this forum, and bring up controversial topics in the workplace, I suspect this impacted your ‘horse’ more than him being male.

                  So if these practices are as widespread as you say. I guess the next question is ‘why?’. Why do businesses, society whoever is doing it want more diverse workplaces, representation etc? Why do many white men, mothers of boys and others support and implement these policies and practices? I’m guessing they feel that it will be better for their business, organisation and society. They might be wrong, and things will change in the future. They might be right and get the outcome they want. I don’t know the the real extent of what you say is happening (still lots of white men in positions of power, with jobs, achieving great things etc) - but the more you say it is happening, that means there are enough people driving it that support it. Business (eg Bunnings - that was just one guys interpretation) wouldn’t do it if there wasn’t something in it for them.

                  • @morse: I have numerous opinions on this post morsers, but this one is the most pressing at the moment:

                    Re your question 'Why do many white men … support and implement these policies and practices?'

                    What evidence do you have that white men support policies that actively discriminate against white men? Note that there is a very big difference between being forced to implement a policy/practice, and actually supporting it (i.e. 'believing that it is fair and just').

                    • +1

                      @GnarlyKnuckles: A few white men have seemed supportive in this thread.
                      There’s a lot of white males in gov and business in leadership positions that would have to endorse any of these policies if they are being implemented.
                      Who would be forcing them?
                      Michael Schneider is the CEO of Bunnings- who’s forcing Mike? Or maybe he wants to (we still don’t know for a fact that Bunnings practices this, just one guys assessment of why he didn’t get a job)

        • So with the V/Line example they are doing targeted recruitment for women in a male dominated industry.

          What do think V/Line’s reason for doing this is? I’m genuinely interested to see if you can understand why organisations want to use these strategies.

          • +1

            @morse: On the surface, there is no logical reason at all. It was certainly not because women were desperately trying to get into the job, but could not due to some sort of 'glass ceiling'. Even when they 'marketed the job' specifically at women, only 15% of the applicants were women. The other 85% were blokes; who were all politely instructed that their interest was appreciated, but the positions were essentially only open to women.

            Note that above, I said 'on the surface'.

            To me it is remarkably coincidental that in the years/months leading up to all of this Mr Danny Andrews was locked into a bitter 'deadlock' with train drivers/their union about pay/conditions/etc. The drivers had pretty evidently realised that there was not much 'redundancy'/back-up driver capacity built into the system, so they could pretty much demand whatever pay and conditions they liked … and that is exact what they did. In a way they 'jumped on' what the ambos and the firies were doing at the time, but they had even more of a 'niche job'/skill-set/bargaining advantage in that respect.

            To my understanding (some of the facts are somewhat elusive/hard to ascertain) they were initially successful; or they thought they were. They secured ludicrously high salaries, for ludicrously low numbers of days work per fortnight. $120k for 6 days work per fortnight, that sort of thing. But then it emerged that Mr Andrews had PLANS.

            Job ads appeared in papers/online etc. advertising for expressions of interest from peeps who want to be fully trained, from scratch, as train drivers. Coincidence? I think freakin' not!!! Now, this would have been called out as blatantly untoward, given that there were already train drivers available/employed/etc. … so it is my belief that here some 'subversive use of the "special measures" clauses in various legal acts' was made to get this whole operation achieved. It probably also entailed paying out quite a few senior (close to retirement) train drivers very handsomely … to make room for this 'new fleet' of women who could be molded precisely as desired by Mr Andrews, and offered extremely carefully worded contracts that ensured he would never again be held to ransom by a mob of train drivers.

            I'm pretty sure this is roughly how it went down. All of the dates/factors are simply way too coincidental for this not to be the case. I haven't looked into it in any great detail though. If anyone else here has any more accurate facts/can shed any light on this issue, I'd be interested.

      • Re:

        'Can you provide evidence of some real world examples of this?'

        Yes, of course. Here's a couple of examples I located in 2 minutes. There's a "growing avalanche" more …

        https://www.9news.com.au/national/v-line-gets-nod-to-target-…

        https://www.themandarin.com.au/80790-positive-discrimination…

    • MAGA?

    • +8

      So people need to stop assuming I'm a White male just because I can admit to the truth that white males are strongly discriminated against.

      I'm a woman from a minority background who isn't afraid of speaking the truth and doesn't like to play the race card and doesnt approve of her "community" doing the same. Cheers!

  • -8

    here come the white supremacist flames of hate so beloved of the modern keyboard grooming fascist….

    • +5

      Erm … wtf? What in this entire post prompted this laughable and baseless 'populist' outburst from you poetry? Some sort of misguided attempt to garner 'likes'/pozzes maybe?!? I respectfully invite you to actually contribute something meaningful/thoughtful/useful to the discussion.

      Peace out.

      • -1

        grooming fascists is all the rage these days - the yanks have spent millions on developing this sort of approach to fighting anti-racism and the rest since the klan learned to type…

        the 77th does it for money… and the idea you're even vaguely interested in peace whilst promoting color unrest is laughable…

  • -2

    You assume white heterosexual males are all worthy, talented and deserving of those roles by merit, and those who are brought up by 'discrimination' are not all worthy, talented and deserving of those roles by merit.

    • +5

      Sheesh kan-man, you are really undermining yourself there. I said no such thing, and I am assuming no such thing. What on earth prompted you to post this blatantly baseless assertion? Please do explain (if you can).

Login or Join to leave a comment