Boundary Wall - Neighbour's Laundry Encroaching by 20cm

We purchased our home in Melbourne approximately 2 years ago and we are currently planning to renovate. We paid for a detailed land survey because we are planning to build a garage on the boundary of the property and wanted to ensure the designs are accurate. The survey results informed us that:

  • Our neighbour on the side has a brick wall that is encroaching our property by approximately 20cm x 5m (length) x 10cm
  • The shared front fence is slightly encroaching our neighbours by 5cm

The previous owner appears to have buil a detached laundry that is attached to the brick wall. The wall itself may be older than 15 years old.

The previous owner sold the property approximately 6 months ago (before we knew about the encroachment).

My preference is to correct the misalignment of boundaries during our renovation, so that it is fair for all parties involved. However I realise that this create stress for our neighbours who have recently purchased and may not know that they are encroaching our land.

My reason for this is because:

  • land in inner city Melbourne is very scarce and losing 20cm of width in our future garage would be a noticeable difference.
  • we are planning to build a garage wall on the boundary of the property and the neighbours laundry could be supported by this stronger structure instead of the brick wall
  • our garage boundary wall may result in some cracking of plaster of the neighbours laundry, as the previous owner mentioned the soil of their property is quite volatile and can move throughout the year. So the laundry may need repairing anyway.
  • the neighbours property is comprised of many detached structures and they may plan to renovate sometime in the near future.

My concerns are:

  • Proposing that the encroachment be corrected may result in a bad relationship with neighbours. Some people believe "finders keepers" and others continuously try to increase their land size by stretching fence boundaries.
  • The wall is potentially over 15 years old, which may open the possibility of the neighbours believing they have a right to claim adverse possession. The legal advice I received before purchasing property was that adverse possession is incredibly difficult to claim for partial encroachment of land and very expensive.
  • I estimate the current value of the land to be ~200 smashed avos on toast (based on sale price / land size * encroachment area). The cost of a land surveyor for the neighbours could be $1000-3000, depending on the level of detail they require. The cost to detach the laundry, remove the wall and reattach to our new wall could easily exceed this.
  • Doing nothing and changing our boundary wall to build around this 5m encroachment would create a weird internal bracing that may result in reduced strength of the overall structure. If we shift the entire length of the proposed garage wall we would lose 21m x 20cm = 4-5sqm, which is a lot and increases the value of land lost to ~1000 smashed avos on toast.

I've received very mixed advice from friends/colleagues/family and wanted to ask the advice of the OzBargain community. The survey options are based on the responses I've received but I've tried to include diverse options.

Poll options.

  • The neighbours are encroaching and it's their responsibility to fix the issue. They should pay to either demolish the structure or rebuild their structure on the correct boundary line.
  • We are the party that want the encroachment corrected, we should pay for the cost to correct this.
  • The cost should be shared. We are being generous to allow the neighbour to attach their laundry structure to the proposed new wall of our new garage. They could save money using the same builders.
  • The boundary should be disputed. The wall could be over 15 years old and the neighbours should pay expensive lawyers to attempt to claim adverse possession.
  • Encroachment issues are too complicated. We should forget about the lost land and design our new structure a distance away, even if we lose 5sqm.
  • We should sell this 5sqm of lost land to the neighbour, approximately ~1000 smashed avos on toast.
  • Another option that hasn't been proposed - leave a comment.

UPDATE:
Some users requested an image to understand the scenario. Below is a link to a quick sketch that I uploaded. Hopefully the scenario makes more sense now.
http://imgur.com/a/nYOmNCs

Poll Options

  • 82
    The neighbours are encroaching and it's their responsibility to fix the issue.
  • 6
    We want to fix encroachment - we should pay for the cost to correct this.
  • 67
    Share cost. Allow neighbour to attach laundry to new boundary wall.
  • 2
    Neighbours should attempt to claim adverse possession.
  • 3
    Lose 5sqm - encroachment issues are too complicated.
  • 3
    Sell 5sqm of lost land to the neighbour, approximately $17k.
  • 2
    Another option that hasn't been proposed - leave a comment.

Comments

  • +7

    unfortunately, the next surveyor may say the opposite
    .

    • +9

      What is the logic for this? The land surveyor that we paid approximately $3000 for was very accurate. I'm confident that additional surveys would produce the same results.

      • friends of friends had such an issue
        that was 20 years ago, maybe better tech reduces the grey area?
        .

      • +3

        was very accurate

        How do you know?

        • https://www.surveyorsboard.vic.gov.au/content/77/Check-Surve…

          The surveyor was licensed and from a very reputable company.

          How do we know surveying performed was accurate? We've tested some of the measurements with our own equipment. However this isn't necessary - there is a professional body that ensures the profession as a whole is accurate.

    • +3

      If certified surveyor (very unlikely not to be) this is extremely unlikely, and surveyor or their insurers will pay costs.
      That why you pay the money for a certified surveyor.

  • +16

    Just claim it back. When the neighbours get sassy I suggest…

    It's the vibe of it. It's the Constitution. It's Mabo. It's justice.

    • +1

      This comment is going straight to the pool room

    • "The country's got to stop stealing other people's land"

    • +2

      What if the neighbour is all, "Tell him he's dreamin'."?

    • Our neighbour on the side has a brick wall that is encroaching our property by approximately 20cm X 5m x 10cm
    • The shared front fence is slightly encroaching our neighbours by 5cm

    This sounds like the wall and fence are crooked. This happens when the slab and/or posts move with the dirt. A 50mm swing in either direction is natural after >15 years.

    The party that wants to move a fence and/or wall that is in good condition has to pay for the work.

    • The wall is only 5m, the fence before & after it is reasonably new colourbond. I know that fence costs are typically shared between neighbours, when the fence needs replacing. In this instance the fence needs realignment with the boundary and the brick wall on the boundary needs removal in order to correct the boundary line.

      I'm unsure when the brick wall was built and whether it has a slab attached to it. It looks like the brick wall is older than the laundry that is attached to it. My assumption is that the previous neighbour has built a laundry structure using the brick wall to brace a steel frame.

      Now that I think about it, the whole structure might become unstable when we dig next to it to build he foundation of our garage.

      • Can you post some photos and diagram?
        It's hard to imagine how the setup is.

        MS Paint can help

        • I uploaded an image into the original post. Hopefully the multiviews help to explain the situation.

  • +3

    If the property was sold 6 months ago I doubt adverse possession is possible.

    You need to see a lawyer not a bargain forum.

    • +1

      The wall could be over 15 years old and the neighbours should pay expensive lawyers to attempt to claim adverse possession.

      OP is saying that the wall is 15 years old.

      https://www.gotocourt.com.au/civil-law/vic/adverse-possessio…

      Adverse possession is a property law principle that allows a person to claim ownership of land without paying for it. Adverse possession occurs where a person has enjoyed uninterrupted and exclusive possession of land for a period of 15 years.

      • +3

        Yes but THIS person has not had it for 15 years if it was sold recently ;)

        • Unfortunately that's not how possession is calculated in Victoria at least. Possession does pass between owners when you purchase.

      • The wall MAY be over 15 years old. I'm unsure if the laundry structure is that old (that's attached to the wall). It's likely it was rebuilt during the renovations of the former neighbour who renovated themselves before selling. I don't have any history of this though.

  • +15

    Tell them to fix it, if they can afford to buy a house in inner Melbourne, then they can afford to rebuild an old laundry.

    Don't let them attach it to your garage either, will cause a messy situation in the future.

    • +4

      If they can afford to buy a house in inner Melbourne, then they can afford to rebuild an old laundry

      Unless they spent all of their money buying a house in inner Melbourne…

    • +1

      if they can afford to buy a house in inner Melbourne, then they can afford to rebuild an old laundry.

      Thank you - that's very sound advice. The cost to rebuild a laundry structure is likely 1% of the value of a home in inner Melbourne.

      Don't let them attach it to your garage either, will cause a messy situation in the future.

      That's true, it's not an ideal solution and will probably lead to futher issues. It's better that they have their own detached structure.

  • +2

    Have you contacted Today Tonight yet?

    • +11

      I thought that the prerequisite for stories involving neighbours was that one had to have sprayed a garden hose over the fence at the other..

  • i was under the impression that measuring boundaries is not an exact science and that 5cm here or there would probably be considered as on the boundary. 20cm might be considered significant enough. dunno

    • +2

      Ah, no.. It is and always has been extremely accurate. 5mm would be considered a significant error, never mind 5cm!

      • hahaha, good one!

        • So almost as accurate as measuring Johnsons

  • What are you going to do when they say no to moving it?

    • +17

      Start a new OzBargain thread?

      Be disappointed that we couldn't come to an arrangement that was fair for both parties. Remind myself that life isn't fair.

      Find out from Council whether the structure was built illegally (without approval).

      Find out from an engineer whether the structure is stable and at risk of damage when we build a garage next to it.

      Speak to a lawyer about the cost to pursue this, the time required to defend against an adverse possession claim and whether we are better off to urinate our money up against the wall.

      Start yet another OzBargain thread.

      Be disappointed how incredibly expensive lawyers are and how unlikely they are to achieve anything. Remind myself why I'm glad that I'm not a lawyer.

      Investigate title insurance and see whether this situation is covered.

      Be disappointed that insurance policies rarely compensate you for the situation that you expected help with. Remind myself why I'm glad that I'm not working in insurance.

      Start yet another OzBargain thread.

  • I doubt council would permit the neighbor to affix a structure to your wall these days.

    • +2

      My assumption is that the majority of small structures on the neighbours property, like the laundry haven't gone through council approval. They were done by a DIY handyperson prior to selling.

  • +3

    Have them pay you rent lol

  • -2

    If the encroachment has been continuing for as long as you suggest, and your neighbour can prove it (aerial photography is one option, statements from previous owners/builder another), then that land is gone buddy.
    Your only and best option is to hope your neighbours either don't understand their rights, or are nice enough to work with you to solve the issue.
    Either way I think you will be bearing the cost.

    • +3

      On what basis do you say that land is gone? My brief advice from a lawyer/friend was that adverse possession of partial land encroachment is incredibly difficult to prove. The only people to win are the lawyers. We can clearly prove the encroachment.

      • Your friend is both right, and wrong.
        It is expensive and complex to pursue any claim in court, but in some ways adverse possession matters are relatively straight-forward.
        You prove the possession of the land for the necessary period, you confirm that it was adverse to the true owner, the land is yours.
        That isn't really your issue. As you explain the situation you do not have an adverse possession claim - you have an action in ejectment. Your neighbour is not trying to have the title adjusted - you are trying to have an encroachment removed. That means you might need to be the one who brings the action, and when your neighbour responds they will claim the land.
        So this might be complex and expensive FOR YOU.
        Try to find yourself a better lawyer.

        • +1

          It is expensive and complex to pursue any claim in court, but in some ways adverse possession matters are relatively straight-forward.
          You prove the possession of the land for the necessary period, you confirm that it was adverse to the true owner, the land is yours.

          How exactly is it "relatively straight-forward" to "prove the possession of the land"?

          The land in question is midway down the boundary fence. It's 5m occupied by a double brick wall that has a laundry structure attached to it. I highly doubt that the laundry is the existing structure as it's much lower than the height of the brick wall. I also doubt that the structure was built with Council approval.

          The neighbour could argue that they have been in possession of the land because there is structure attached to the wall. We could argue that the brick wall exists as part of the boundary fence, even though the fence is colorbond on either side of the brick wall, and that they were not in possession of the land.

          Boundary fence lines are the responsibility of both neighbours. The laundry structure attached to the wall is under the neighbours responsibility.

          I'm not familiar with the process of ejectment. Are you able to elaborate on how this is different?

          • @i like coffee: As I have said, you need a good lawyer, ideally in your jurisdiction.
            Perhaps they can explain to you.

            • +2

              @Almost Banned: Does that mean that you are not a "good lawyer"?

              There's a famous quote from Einstein:
              "If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself".

              I'm unsure if your refusal to explain is because the process of providing evidence isn't so straightforward or perhaps it's not an area that you have expertise in.

              As explained in the original post, the advice I was provided by a good lawyer prior to purchasing, was that adverse possession was very difficult to prove on a slither of land. If it was simple, surely the courts would be full of hundreds of thousands of cases where neighbours have claimed slithers of their neighbours land due to incorrect boundary fences.

              • -4

                @i like coffee: Buddy I would be happy to explain it to you.
                My normal fee for an initial consult is $440. I charge out at $550 per hour ex gst and disbursements after that.
                If you want to make a booking let me know.

                • @Almost Banned: Firstly, I haven't negged your comment.

                  I apologise if I came across as aggressive questioning your experience in the area. However I interpreted your response as a bit arrogant stating that something was straightforward but unwilling to demonstrate how that is so.

                  Honestly your response seems to be a bait and switch sales tactic that many Ozbargainers would find distasteful.

                  Do you have specific experience with Victorian adverse possession law? If so, I find it hard to believe that you could say that it's relatively straightforward.

                  However I'd be happy to be proven wrong if you're willing to explain further.

                  • -2

                    @i like coffee: Mate - don't worry about the negs. This site is full of armchair experts who are clueless.
                    As for your question, just how much free legal advice do you think you are entitled to on this site?
                    I have already told you the position, and told you to get good legal advice in your jurisdiction.

                    • @Almost Banned:

                      This site is full of armchair experts who are clueless.

                      How do I know that you are not just a "armchair expert"? I've asked if you have experience in Victorian cases of adverse possession and you've refused to answer. I've asked you to explain how something could be straightforward and you've refused to answer.

                      As for your question, just how much free legal advice do you think you are entitled to on this site?

                      This is OzBargain and this section of the site is a forum. It's where people offer information on how people can save money (through deals/classifieds/etc.) and forums exist for people to assist others with information. I assume you are here because you'd like to assist others with your knowledge. What harm is there in offering some initial guidance for free?

                      Obviously I'd pay a solicitor if an adverse possession claim was raised against us, however I don't intend for this situation to take that path as it would be expensive for both parties, time consuming, stressful and hardly the amicable relationship that I'd like to have with neighbours.

                • +2

                  @Almost Banned:

                  I charge out at $550 per hour ex gst

                  Come on, you know you aren't allowed to quote ex gst.

                  • -1

                    @MrBear: You make a good point, generally speaking prices should include all applicable fees and taxes.
                    However you can quote ex gst when you are giving a price in B2B transactions.
                    You just need to specify that it is gst exclusive.
                    However, I was not quoting for the work, I was just providing my chargeout rates.
                    If I was to accept an engagement from OP I would be obliged to give proper cost disclosure, including a proper estimate, which would have included GST.

                    • +1

                      @Almost Banned:

                      However, I was not quoting for the work, I was just providing my chargeout rates.

                      What is the point of providing your charge out rates if you are not going to provide details on your experience with the area of law that the topic falls under?

                      I'd genuinely like to know whether you have experience in adverse possession claims (in Victoria, as legislation is very different between states), or encroachment issues such as the one this topic is about.

                  • @MrBear: Dob him in!! Quoting ex gst to a non abn holder remains a federal offence!!

    • +1

      no idea why you have been negged - this advice is very accurate……..too many people on here seem to be using other states systems for adverse possession which are very different to Victorias!

  • Remember to build 90cm away from the wall ;)
    https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/601055

    • +2

      You don't need to build 90cm from a boundary if you follow the design guidelines or get a dispensation. Building on a boundary is actually very common on inner city property.

  • +2

    Re the fence - I had to look into something similar recently when an arrogant developer tried to get me to foot the bill for a new fence where one was not necessary. He accused us of encroaching on his land and said we were responsible for the cost of fixing it.

    Fun fact, turns out he was 'encroaching' on us by about 5cm. The advice I got (SA based lawyer) was that 5cm on the boundary fence wasn't going to be considered an encroachment in real terms. Funny when I wrote to said developer about his 'misunderstanding' I never heard anything back…

    Re the laundry, my research was that (in SA) a 40cm encroachment of a fence had to be fixed, I suspect 20cm is more likely to fit into that area. But I would definitely get some legal advice specific to your state.

    • Did the developer have a land survey as evidence of the alleged encroachment?

      Thank you for the advice. I assumed there was some small margin of error (like 5cm) that wasn't worth pursuing. I'll try to find out what that margin is for Victoria and whether it differs for structures like a partial boundary wall.

      • +1

        Developer sent us the plans that he had had drawn up for the redevelopment. He told me that the plans showed I was encroaching on his land. I reviewed them, disagreed and had an acquaintance who is in property law review them (for the accepted consideration of a good drop of red).

        I suspect the developer was just trying to bully us. The plans were accompanied by a pretty aggressive letter with some big legalese words in it about us footing the bill for a new fence. I also suspect it might be a tactic that would work on some people…

        And there is definitely a margin that is not worth pursuing, do not quote me, but I think maybe 10cm either way was what my acquaintance said.

        • +1

          It sounds very arrogant and dishonest of the developer, as they would typically get land survey done.

          However it may be a scam that works and saves them thousands of dollars on fencing.

          I'm glad that your friend was able to assist you for a reasonable price. SA is full of great options when it comes to wine.

  • +11

    All in all it's just another brick in the wall.

    • +1

      I see what you did there, and I like it.

  • +1

    Is your other boundary line correct? or is that 20cm out in your favour?

    • +1

      The opposite boundary is correct.* The other neighbour has built their garage wall exactly on the boundary and we are no encroaching on them in any way.

      Actually the fence on the otherwise is actually encroaching on us as well, but the neighbours were aware of this (as they also recently purchased in the last few years) and they have agreed that a new fence will be built during renovations on the boundary line.

  • +4

    Good friendly neighbours are worth their weight in gold….
    new neighbours and hitting them up with this … good luck.

    • +3

      Thank you. I was tempted to post this from the neighbours perspective as I wanted to understand how people would feel if they were the neighbour.

      I agree that good neighbours are an asset and people often don't know their value until they are replaced with someone worse.

      However this isn't something minor that we can ignore. It impacts 4sqm of land of our planned design. I don't see this as a problem that we have introduced. The neighbours likely purchased the property at a lower value due to the potential boundary issues. Following that logic, we may have as well. I don't see us as the party creating the problem. I'm hoping we can work together to find a solution that isn't going to negatively impact them, such as using the same builders, so that they save money.

      I'd be interested in hearing more about how this could upset them as that is definitely not my intention.

      • +2

        The neighbours likely purchased the property at a lower value due to the potential boundary issues

        crazy assumption.

        I'd be interested in hearing more about how this could upset them

        If you are asking how - theres no point trying to explain.

        • +3

          Their conveyencer would have told them the outbuildings weren't approved, and they decided to buy anyway

        • If you are asking how - theres no point trying to explain.

          Would you prefer that I ask "why this could upset them?"

        • The neighbours likely purchased the property at a lower value due to the potential boundary issues

          crazy assumption.

          How is that a "crazy assumption"? Properties with issues attract less buyers and sell for lower prices on average. I don't think that it's crazy to assume that a certain percentage of buyers would consider potential encroachment issues a deal breaker or something that would devalue a property for them. It's a similar situation to non-compliant / unplanned structures - they are a risk that may cost you in the future.

  • "land in inner city Melbourne is very scarce"

    You aren't kidding. I only became aware of the Phoenix Tower yesterday - I don't live in Melbourne- 28 storeys on a 6.7m wide block.

  • +1

    They may have purchased title insurance, which should cover this scenario. Hence they may not be out of pocket.

    I know it's a weird question to bring up with your neighbour, but you could ask them if they paid it with their conveyancing.

    • +1

      Thank you - this is something for me to definitely look into. We were advised prior to purchasing to get title insurance and I'm glad that we did. I'll investigate whether our insurance covers this type of situation as well.

      Hopefully our insurance can cover the cost to remove the offending structure and their insurance can cover the cost of rebuilding the structure within their property.

  • What will you say if your neighbour is willing to pay for the change, but tells you that they don't have the funds right now?

    • You are asking what I would do if my neighbour, who purchased an inner city Melbourne property, said they couldn't afford to pay 1% of the property value to fix a boundary issue?

      I'd ask whether they had insurance to cover this type of scenario (i.e. title insurance).

      I'd ask them to speak to their financial institution (who loaned them to purchase the property). The financial institution is in the best position to help them with that situation.

  • +1

    It’s not your neighbour’s fault. Your neighbours are not suffering because of the current situation. If you want a good relationship with your neighbours, you have two choices … either don’t change the boundary or you pay all rectification costs. Note, I have had a past boundary issue with a neighbour where they thought they had the upper-hand and played hardball … it didn’t work out well for them when I successfully objected to their redevelopment purely because of how they treated me. It cost me ~$200, cost them a major redesign of a $2M mansion and a lot of stress

    • Thank you for your response. I'd be interested in hearing more about your experience given that it's vaguely similar and from the perspective of the neighbour who is encroaching. Would you be happy to elaborate a bit more (or via DM)?

      I'm not suggesting that the neighbours are at fault. The incident of structure being built incorrectly over the boundary line occurred prior to either parties ownership of the land.

      I'm trying to determine what responsibility each party should take to correct the encroachment. I don't think it's fair that the encroached upon party pay 100% of the cost to correct the issue.

      I also don't think that it would be fair that the encroaching neighbour be 100% responsible for resolving the issue. I'd prefer that we work together as it relates to a boundary and I'd prefer to have an amicable relationship with neighbours (with this issue and whatever issues arise in the future).

      I'm not sure if I follow the logic correctly regarding plans to development plans. Are you suggesting that we try to keep everyone around us happy so that they don't object to our renovation plans? Lots of people object for emotional reasons but my understanding is that Council (& VCAT) decisions are based on adherence to the ADR & overlays (such as neighbourhood character overlay). Hopefully the planning approval processes protect us from people objecting for emotional reasons. We've put a lot of thought and effort into ensuring that our renovation adheres to all guidelines and is low impact on the surrounding neighbours.

      • +1

        So my situation was …

        I had a pergola mounted between my house wall and the neighbours brick garage (& common) wall, by agreement with my neighbour years earlier. The new neighbour wanted to redevelop the property and told me he was happy to rectify my pergola.

        I get a letter from council asking if I have an objection to the neighbour building closer to the boundary than the standard offset. Apparently the neighbour doesn't require a planning permit as they are replacing the old house with a new house, providing they meet certain requirements. The offset from boundary can be over-riden by agreement with the neighbour. Being neighbourly, I agree to allow it.

        Time goes by, then the neighbour announces to me he wont pay for rectifying my pergola as it doesn't have a permit. He told me this in a rather unpleasant manner, with no apology for backing out of his previous offer. Not a nice person. I speak to council and they advise me to object to the building being so close to the boundary. So I object. His architect contacted me a number of times seeking a solution, but other than talking about compromise, makes no offer. They were forced to make a significant design change.

        When the tradies started work at his property, I asked one of his labourers to quote remounting my pergola onto a couple of poles. He did a good job for $200.

        As for your situation, remember this … you and your neighbour each bought your property with the boundary where you saw it. That you're not happy with that now is your problem, not theirs.

        • Thank you for sharing your experience. It's helpful to know what occurred. It sounds like the neighbour was trying to push through a lot of things outside of the deisgn guidelines. I'm glad that your situation was resolved easily.

          As for your situation, remember this … you and your neighbour each bought your property with the boundary where you saw it. That you're not happy with that now is your problem, not theirs.

          I don't agree with this logic. When we purchased there were certain unknown risks (such as boundary encroachments) that we weren't aware of. We purchased Title Insurance to cover this. This encroachment issue is a shared problem that I assume neither party were aware of.

    • It cost me ~$200, cost them a major redesign of a $2M mansion and a lot of stress.

      Was the $200 fee for a VCAT objection? Or did you pay for your own land survey?

      It sounds like their proposed plan wasn't inline with ADR guidelines which is why you could object. However I would assume that council approval would pick up these issues as that's what the process is there for. It shouldn't be a neighbours responsibility to point out the issues of a planning proposal.

  • Not really a fault thing. It is what it is…..
    If you have gone to the trouble of a survey and have the information, why not share it with your neighbour and discuss it. Give it a little time if possible so you can both work out what suits. You have found a problem that you share with your neighbour. Shouldn’t be a big issue in the long run. If you had your heart set on the use of that piece of land, then act accordingly. You both have legal bottom lines after all, Then do whatever you are comfortable with at the end of the day.
    I think the perspective here is that until this is corrected some way, the whole issue will come back for the next owners and so on, so worth at least communicating about it.

    • Thank you. I'm glad that some people see the bigger picture of what is occurring.
      I guess we were quite nervous to organise an initial discussion because:

      • our neighbours moved in during COVID /lockdowns and we have only briefly met.
      • this is our first experience with a boundary issue & wanted to hear people's thoughts (hence this thread)
      • property ownership = legal responsibility, we want to ensure that everything is done right
      • this is our home, we plan to live for a very long time and want amicable relationships with all neighbours

      It's also worth noting that we are somewhat flexible on the time to resolve this. Our renovation plans may take several months to progress through planning approval depending on how efficient the council are. The neighbours may have plans to renovate sometime in the future as well.

      • Time is your friend here. If you decide to make personal contact about it, exchange emails and keep records of discussions without being too obtuse about it.
        Even if things drag on for a while you have some records to save revisiting stuff if it carries on past these neighbours,
        Remember, even if you pushed like crazy and both agreed on an outcome it would probably take 12 months to change titles etc.

  • How do know its the neighbours wall?

    Also, you are concerned about 0.75m2 given the dimensions of 20cm to 10cm over 5m.

    Sounds like a party wall for old rear now demolished garages that were never titled properly (very common in fitzroy etc.)

    Are the houses an attached row?

    • How do know its the neighbours wall?

      I don't know who's wall it is.. but the previous neighbour did mention that his laundry was attached to it.

      Also, you are concerned about 0.75m2 given the dimensions of 20cm to 10cm over 5m.

      Correct. I rounded up to 1sqm. I realise that it isn't a large area.. but the issue is that we want to build a garage wall on the boundary for ~20m. If we need to accommodate this encroachment, it means we lose 4-5sqm.

      Sounds like a party wall for old rear now demolished garages that were never titled properly (very common in fitzroy etc.)
      Are the houses an attached row?

      The houses aren't attached. The wall is only 5m in length with fences before and after.

      • Nah, even if you allow for wall, just step back after it, and it will be boundary x width for 15m. Still only lose 0.75m2. in scheme of things its sfa.

        Have you paid council for full planning, title permits etc.?

        I still reckon its an old garage wall, may even be yours.

        • may even be yours.

          How could this be confirmed? I guess there could be an easement of support on it, though I expect often people didn't bother with this, and op would have known about it.

          • @kiitos: Historical review, Including aerials. There are photos from the early days of flight for most of state.

            Nothing to donwith easements, but simply a structure built to boundary, at a guess the foundations may even be basalt pavers.

  • +1

    It is your neigbour's responsibilities to check for such compliance issues at time of purchase.
    i.e. thier conveyancer should have picked up on this.

    So put forward your issues and suggestions and discuss a remedy with them

    They too might want to pay for thier own survey to confirm your findings.

  • You've both bought property in the past 2 years and neither had a survey done, nor did the survey in the contract documents show an anomoly? That's unusual.

    • I'm unsure if the neighbours had a land survey done at the time of purchase. We are yet to speak to them about this issue. Their property was purchased during the COVID/lockdown period and we were unavailable during this time period.

      We weren't able to have a land survey done prior to purchasing, so we purchased land title insurance to cover this. We planned to have the land survey done in detail for our renovation plans and we have just received the survey results which is why I created this thread.

      I haven't seen land surveys included in contracts of sale before, only title plans which are usually the original land title. These don't show the current structures.

  • +1

    ms paint please.

    work it out like gentlemen though.

    • I uploaded an image in the original post. Apologies that I didn't use MS Paint.

  • I had a similar issue a couple of years ago. I split the cost with them.

    • Thank you. Are you able to explain a bit about your experience?

      • Were you the party encroaching or were you being encroached upon?

      • What concerns did you or your neighbours raise?

      • Did either party have title insurance? Was any of the cost covered?

      • Was the shared cost for demolition or also for rebuilding the structure?

      • How long did the issue take to resolve?

  • As a land surveyor in Melbourne, this thread is very amusing….

    • Are you able to offer some advice? I'm always looking to learn more, hence posting this thread so that we can determine the best path forward (for both parties).

      I found it concerning that some people question the accuracy of a land survey. Perhaps some people don't actually understand what is involved in the process.

  • Inform the neighbours of the survey and your proposed plans. Ask them what they propose. This is a situation best resolved by negotiation as legal costs would likely exceed the value of what you would win. Once you have established your opening stance and listened to theirs try to find common ground. Going to the end point in negotiation by suggesting sharing costs or allowing the new laundry to be attached to your wall doesn't work. It just sets your opening negotiation to the weakest point and gives the impression to them that you won't budge. I doubt that either you or your neighbour will feel like winners no matter the outcome of it goes to court.

    • This is a situation best resolved by negotiation as legal costs would likely exceed the value of what you would win.

      I completely agree. Involving lawyers would be incredibly messy, expensive, stressful and do nothing for the amicable relationship that I'd like to have with my neighbours.

      Once you have established your opening stance and listened to theirs try to find common ground.

      My concern with the brick wall structure is that it creates complications for the garage structure that we'd like to build on the boundary line.

      Their concern is likely to be that they do not want the complication of demolishing and rebuilding the laundry structure.

      I'm unsure what a middle ground we may end up at. Hopefully lthey have plans to renovate, like our other neighbours, but this may be unlikely due to them purchasing a property that was previously renovated by a DIY handyperson.

  • Did surveyor actually investigate the wall origin or state its the neighbours without any real reason other than " lean to laundry therefore must be neighbours wall? Given they were on a fixed fee and looking to make a buck?

    The optimal solution if you want, is to temp support neighbours laundry, demolish wall, new wall on boundary, reinstate neighbours laundry backwall support, get on with life. You do this at your cost (extra over minimal, and is about getting neighbour to not lodge any objections.)

    • Did surveyor actually investigate the wall origin or state its the neighbours without any real reason other than " lean to laundry therefore must be neighbours wall?

      The survey was expensive (approx. $3000) as it involved measurement of several neighbouring properties as well as our own but it didn't involve investigation of the origin of encroaching structures. It showed where they occurred in regards to the title boundaries.

      The optimal solution if you want, is to temp support neighbours laundry, demolish wall, new wall on boundary, reinstate neighbours laundry backwall support, get on with life. You do this at your cost (extra over minimal, and is about getting neighbour to not lodge any objections.)

      This was actually my first thought regarding the situation, however I'm not a builder so I wasn't sure if I was over simplifying the process.

      • Remove joinery and detach pipes from internal part of laundry
      • Support the roof structure (similar to how dividing wall is braced when retrofitting open-plan)
      • Demolish brick wall
      • Reinstall a thinner back wall to support the structure.
      • Reattach all of the piping and joinery
      • Patch up any cracks in plaster / tiling

      Are there any builders / DIY handypersons that could give a ball park estimate? Or feedback as to whether this is an advisable solution?

  • +1

    TLDR version; So sometimes its not all about financials, especially with neighbours. If you plan to live there for a long time. Think about the relationship in the future. Sure you lose a bit of space, but gain friendship/good relationship?

    Long: This happened to my parents 10 years ago when the new owners purchased the property next door for a knock down rebuild. Except we were the other party encroaching.
    Survey found the rear granny flat was encroaching approx. 40cm for about 8m length in one of the corners. So this was not a small amount, considering it was in Syd Inner west location, and the double brick structure and garage was approx. 80 years old.

    Neighbours builder approached my parents telling them they need to knock it down… They were distraught, as they did not understand, and English wasn’t their first language. We engaged a lawyer and they eventually dragged it on for 14 months! But in the meantime, neighbour already decided to build in around the encroachment after few months. And by the time the lawyer builder sorted out conclusion (each pay ½ for the demo and move). My parents and them had already have become friends.

    e.g. During the build parents allowed them to use power when they had none. As the builders could not get a permit to run a generator on the street for the duration of the build.
    When their project overran, and they had already moved out of their place. Parents let them lodge in the granny flat for those 4 weeks. (The same structure their builders wanted to demo)
    Their kids primary school age were over a lot when they both were at work. They lost their house keys a few times and it just became a thing for them to come over and play and have some food.

  • 20cm is quite a lot… remember… you paid for this land.
    Ask them to rectify or notify the Local Council

    • i can see that you are in nsw……..that isnt how things are done with regards to adverse possession in vic.

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