School Contributions in Public Schools

cheaptech20 on 27/02/2021 - 14:32
Last edited 27/02/2021 - 14:40 by 1 other user

NSW Government policy is that all school contributions are voluntary, and it's the Principals responsibility that parents know this fact.

I am OK with the ordinary subject fees. However, I have noticed more recently, this is deliberately hidden and more odd line items are being introduced like "wellbeing contribution". In addition, parents are chased for these contributions as if they were not paying a bill.

But I've been paying everything to avoid being chased, but curious what do you all do? And comment on whether this relates to your level of income.

Poll Options

223
Pay 100% of contributions
6
Pay partial contributions
63
Don't pay any contributions

Education & Work

Comments

- - - brendanm on 27/02/2021 - 21:02
      
      +4
      
      The justification is that the same amount is spent from the government on each child. Whether the parents choose to pay more and go private on top of this, is their choice.
    - fossilfuel on 28/02/2021 - 00:02
      
      +13
      
      The usual justification is that it saves the states educating those children, but so what? Send them to public school and raise taxes a bit.
      
      Finland got rid of all their private schools which forced rich families to send their kids to their local schools. Consequently, rich parents had to invest in their local schools to ensure their kids get quality education (which also benefits the less well off kids). Australia should definitely move towards this model as private schools alienate those who cannot afford their fees.
      
      I disagree with raising taxes. Like the American education system, no matter how much money you throw at education, the system will still fail to adequately educate students because of how it's design i.e inadequately developing/targeting essential life skills (like financial literacy and IT skills), standardised testing, heavy administrative burden for teachers, achieving targets (which aims to push up results for average students but disregards those at the bottom with extra learning needs) etc. Rather than allocating more funding, the whole system needs to change in order to better educate our students.
      - brendanm on 28/02/2021 - 11:05
        
        +3
        
        @fossilfuel:
        
        private schools alienate those who cannot afford their fees.
        
        This is sort of the point? Some state schools are packed with kids who don't care, because their parents don't care. The teachers time is wasted trying to curb the behaviour of these kids, while the others that want to learn miss out.
        
        The parents who don't care, don't send their kids to private schools, so the amount of behaviour management issues are far lower.
        
        fossilfuel on 28/02/2021 - 11:50
        
        +1
        
        @brendanm:
        
        The parents who don't care, don't send their kids to private schools, so the amount of behaviour management issues are far lower.
        
        There are catholic and private schools where behaviour issues are more rampant than public schools. That's because parents pay higher fees and believe that they don't need to do anything and expect the school to do everything. So no matter what the teachers do, the kids know if they misbehave, there won't be major consequences from the parents and the parents will always palm it back to the schools.
        
        Some state schools are packed with kids who don't care, because their parents don't care. The teachers time is wasted trying to curb the behaviour of these kids, while the others that want to learn miss out.
        
        Kids always care, even if you think they don't. It depends on what type of care you give them e.g shouting which leads to more behaviour issues or time to understand their problems which decreases behaviour problems.
        
        It also depends on how the school manages behaviour. You can have a teacher or school that focuses all their attention on punishing kids and naturally the rest misses out. This only serves to label misbehaving kids, fuels further efforts to punish them and less time is given to teaching.
        
        Alternatively, you can have a teacher who focuses on understanding what the issue is/why they're misbehaving and implement strategies to support their learning. This is far more effective than punishment.
        
        Also rather than seeing that parents don't care (which is a very small minority), they're probably dealing with problems in their lives (whether it be drugs, alcohol, separation, trauma, financial, addictions, health issues etc) which makes it difficult to parent. Hence why you see those difficult behaviours in kids in school.
        
        brendanm on 28/02/2021 - 12:53
        
        @fossilfuel:
        
        Alternatively, you can have a teacher who focuses on understanding what the issue is/why they're misbehaving and implement strategies to support their learning.
        
        That's fine, but while this is happening, other kids are missing out.
        
        My son has been to public and private schools. I know the pros and cons of each. He is currently in an out of catchment public high school, which is better than the vast majority of private schools. He has also been in public schools that were terrible, where he was basically ignored, because he was smart and had no behavioural issues.
        
        Most of the time, he was far better off in a private school, where he could actually learn.
        
        Kids always care, even if you think they don't.
        
        They would, but most have a terrible attitude ingrained in them from terrible parents, that's hard to break without a lot of help. Help which the other students then miss out on.
        
        fossilfuel on 28/02/2021 - 13:57
        
        +1
        
        @brendanm:
        
        My son has been to public and private schools. I know the pros and cons of each. He is currently in an out of catchment public high school, which is better than the vast majority of private schools. He has also been in public schools that were terrible, where he was basically ignored, because he was smart and had no behavioural issues.
        
        Definitely agree, there are some public schools that are shocking because they ignore both the students and the parents.
        
        I think the problem is that most schools aren't taught how to cater to gifted students because the focus is on how to cater to low performing students. We have plenty of literacy and numeracy programs to help students achieve grade expectations but very little to challenge gifted students. Gifted students need differentiation, extracurricular programs, content acceleration and challenging activities to stay focused. But like you said, if they're sitting quietly, doing their work, then they get little attention from the teacher because there's no problem. Some schools have Gifted and Talented (GAT) classes which caters well to these students.
        
        They would, but most have a terrible attitude ingrained in them from terrible parents, that's hard to break without a lot of help. Help which the other students then miss out on.
        
        True but I don't think they need a lot of help rather they need the right help. There's usually other factors than parents contributing to behaviour problems in kids. I've seen some very troubled students who came from other schools but they settled well after a few weeks once the right strategies were implemented.
        
        We had a student who misbehaved and refused to do work at his old school (and the old school let him off) but then could at our school, his teacher hammered into him that work must be completed otherwise he would stay in during breaks and his attitude changed. If the work was too hard, it was scaffolded and modified to the point he could do it independently. It's effortful for the teacher but there was a long term reduction in behaviour problems.
        
        Another time we had a student who would always call out, ask the teacher to reclarify instructions and annoy other students instead of doing work. The school found out that he couldn't focus because most of the time, he didn't have enough to eat at dinner and skipped breakfast. The school started providing the student with breakfast (a sandwich and some milk) and the behaviour problems dropped significantly.
      - FoxJump on 28/02/2021 - 17:27
        
        +1
        
        @fossilfuel: I'd also like to see the public funded childcare. It's more expensive than school! Its more expensive than rent!
        
        fossilfuel on 28/02/2021 - 22:06
        
        @FoxJump: Definitely and very strongly agree!
        
        It makes sense from a developmental perspective because kids develop essential social, learning and living skills so they're more prepared for kindy and reduces the risk of problems developing in the future.
        
        Economically, it allows parents to somewhat enter the workforce and maintain their skills.
    - GourmetFoodie on 01/03/2021 - 09:11
      
      I agree. It makes me mad. There should be zero govt funding for private schools.
      
      And I say this as someone who will probably send my kids to private schools if I can I afford it because the quality gap between public and private at secondary level is SO enormous.
- mskeggs on 27/02/2021 - 17:54
  
  +16
  
  Join your local p&c and you can have excellent visibility on the school’s use of funds.
  They will welcome your contribution.
  Examples of things the p&c have funded at our local high school are lockers, a chilled water dispenser for filling drink bottles, awards to kids who did well, morning tea once a year for all staff, and other bits and pieces.
  These are nice to have, rather than essentials, but it seems like a good idea to make the school less grim where possible.
- fossilfuel on 27/02/2021 - 23:33
  
  +3
  
  Are public schools that cash poor and receive very limited funding from the government?
  Would be interested to know how money is allocated and the rationale for extra fund raising school events during the year.
  
  It really depends on the demographic of the school. This is a good visual of how funding is allocated. All schools get a base school allocation to pay for staffing and general operations. If there's any additional needs like low SES, EaLD, Aboriginal etc, the school will receive equity loadings. Then there's refugee, new arrivals and IFS which is very targeted supported for specific groups.
  
  Also many parents volunteering for school (eg canteen, excursions). I think it’s a good idea from a social angle.
  
  Definitely. It's unfortunate that parents aren't allowed back on school grounds apart from pickup.
  
  Although not parents volunteering, our Community Liaison Officers (CLO) run a parents group weekly and do excursions, general chatter, linking with services, wellbeing, presentations etc. This does wonders for the parents since they're all from a low SES and refugee background. If the parents feel well supported, it reduces the risk of family dysfunction and the kids will be more ready to learn/socialise.
- bargainbrats on 28/02/2021 - 13:08
  
  You cant do volunteer school canteen anymore as the canteens are leased by a private company and they have employees
  - netjock on 02/03/2021 - 03:25
    
    canteens are leased by a private company
    
    Owned by mates of the powers (I am not talking about the school).
gimli on 27/02/2021 - 17:59

+3

For many years I felt public school should not charge school contribution because it goes against the whole idea of all people should be entitled to the same quality of education. (i.e. you should get significantly better education just because you go to a private school or a school which charges higher contributions).

With time I've become lest idealistic and realise things will never be completely equitable. Government funding is not adequate to give students a well rounded education. Sure mandatory subjects will be taught but sports/ music and other aspects will often be very limited. Overall, the contributions are small price to pay for something as important as education.
- snooksy on 28/02/2021 - 10:34
  
  Plus all the people who don’t have children of their own or all the people under (<30) or well beyond (55+) child raising age are still contributing to your kids education. The government can’t justify taxing everyone more all the time for things people don’t see the need it of. I’m not saying that I wouldn’t agree to pay more tax if it went to education but I think parents of kids at school have to keep in mind who is contributing to their kids learning and not complain too much if they have to pay a little bit extra at a state school themselves. Every working person pays income tax and GST but not every working person has any connection with a school child. It’s the same with hospitals, healthcare, welfare payments, etc. I don’t have children of my own yet but I have savings put aside for when my partner and I do to pay for education expenses.
  - Quantumcat on 28/02/2021 - 11:30
    
    +10
    
    Educating children well helps society as a whole. You don't have to be connected with a school child to realise the benefits of publicly funded education in your own life.
pjcook on 28/02/2021 - 08:00

+3

As a previous member of the School council I learnt that the funding provided to Public Schools barely covers the essentials. Teacher cover a lot of costs out of their own pockets to ensure the kids don't miss out. The contribution funds are voluntary and if you are in genuine hardship talk to the school, they will help.

Simple fact is the Federal Government doesn't value public education and favour private institutions. If you want your child to have all they need then pay the contributions if you can afford it.
- bawdygeorge on 28/02/2021 - 09:12
  
  +1
  
  Aren’t public schools the responsibility of the states to fund?
- morse on 28/02/2021 - 10:57
  
  +2
  
  I totally agree with this, and will pay voluntary contributions when my kid is school age. However I wonder if the government relies on this, ie it’s kinda expected revenue so the more parents pay the less gov feels it needs to make up the shortfall.
  - Vote for Pedro on 01/03/2021 - 20:28
    
    Kinda like the celeste barber rfs crowd funding. Government will just reduce contributions because she has to give the money to the rfs trust
MontyMacaw on 28/02/2021 - 09:52

+3

A school for your children is something you should support if you are able. The money you pay doesn’t go into bonuses for the CEO like a company it goes into things for the kids. The sad part is that schools in poorer areas obviously get less by way of school fees from parents because of their ability to pay. Looking at schools solely as being taxed out of your income to the ATO may well affect how much your kids get from the system. Parents who are more involved with their kids education mostly have a better social life with other parents and kids have a better chance to have the best childhood experiences. So if you think the school “owes” your kids an education then you may just be looking at it from the wrong angle - directed mostly at the comments btw.
Mustang2017 on 28/02/2021 - 11:05

Since the introduction of local schools local decisions school principals have the power to do what they want with the school money. At the school that I work the principal has cut the budget to fees only. This way he can spend the money on items and projects which will make him look better when he goes for a promotion.
- MontyMacaw on 28/02/2021 - 11:10
  
  I assume you have taken action and brought this up with the ministry?
  - Mustang2017 on 28/02/2021 - 12:46
    
    +2
    
    This has been passed by the government.
bargainbrats on 28/02/2021 - 13:33

+1

The high school my son goes too the “voluntary “ school fees for year 7 and year 8 actually pay for the BYOD which was a chromebook that the school gives to your child when they are in yr 7 so i think its good way as every child gets their own BYOD as this area is most probably classed as a low income area which alot of refugees ect as its around bankstown area
- [Deactivated] on 28/02/2021 - 17:35
  
  +1
  
  Do they not have commas in low socio economic schools?
- FoxJump on 28/02/2021 - 17:47
  
  +1
  
  Bring-your-own-device that they give you‽ Doesn't sound very your-own-y
porsche26c on 28/02/2021 - 20:16

+1

Just pay. I'm sure it's not that much. My Catholic school fees are 3k for the year i.e kindy. Again not that much in the scheme of things as day care was 5x that amount.
The fees you pay no matter the school, always go back to the school for better equipment, supplies etc. Which your kids will benefit from. Unless private, probably going to a private jet.
Fier2 on 28/02/2021 - 20:20

+2

I just pay the contributions as i know it go towards better equipments for students and the school ground.
Mustang2017 on 28/02/2021 - 21:09

+2

One thing you can do is ask your school where the money is allocated. Eg a school I know of is spending $750,000 for a new library. There is nothing wrong with the old one. Cutting budgets to each department is one way of raising the money. Once again ask the school or get on the p and c meetings to find out. It’s easy to say the money will go to the students but in many cases in does not.
- fossilfuel on 28/02/2021 - 22:15
  
  +2
  
  Schools are very transparent about that information and it's published in their annual reports. It details how much money is allocated and how it's spent. You can google XXX school annual report. It's that most of the time, the general public don't bother reading it.
  
  e.g Canterbury Girls HS 2019 Annual Report
- samfisher5986 on 01/03/2021 - 10:58
  
  At least in Queensland public schools, funding doesn't work that way, they can't decide not to build that Library and then use the $750,000 on school resources.
StalkingIbis on 28/02/2021 - 21:14

Basic funds paid to schools will cover the essentials (like a teacher, a whiteboard, and a cleaner). The extra fees go towards buying resources and creating programs that will provide better than minimum learning impact.
DarkOz on 01/03/2021 - 08:11

We support our kids' schools 100%. Will always pay 100% of the contributions. Plus donations when we are not tight with money.
johnno07 on 01/03/2021 - 09:07

+1

How much are we taking here?
- cheaptech20 on 01/03/2021 - 19:46
  
  +1
  
  Some high schools are in the $1k plus per annum range.
macfudd on 01/03/2021 - 10:57

+2

Kids aren't at school age yet so haven't had this issue. We're in a position that we can afford those extra fees though so we would pay them. I still remember a friend of mine at high school and his mum were constantly and publicly harassed by school administrators for not paying the 'optional' extra fees.They couldn't afford to pay and the school knew that but didn't let up.

The funding of schools is really out of whack. I don't know about other states, but here in Victoria in government funding - Catholic schools get $3000 (per student) more than public schools. Then independent schools get nearly $10k (per student) more than Catholic schools. Meaning they get more than double the government funding compared to public schools. Used to be much closer but it's really blown out in the last decade or so.

We'd consider a private school, but given we would prefer a co-educational, non-religious school that pretty much leaves only public schools as an option.
Vallani on 01/03/2021 - 11:05

+2

I live in a wealthy area with a high proportion of kids going to private schools. Mine go to the local public school, which I'm happy with.

I think the voluntary fees are around $200 a year - I would not dream of not paying them. The amount seems pretty modest, even more so because we are on good incomes. I would not begrudge those who don't have means to pay, but the attitude of most parents at my children's schools is that state education is in general extremely affordable, and so they are happy to pay these kinds of fees.
- Orico on 01/03/2021 - 12:09
  
  where?
  
  are you chinese or indian?
  - Vallani on 01/03/2021 - 12:59
    
    Sydney lower north shore, and neither Chinese nor Indian.
    - Orico on 01/03/2021 - 14:03
      
      I just wanted to know what it was like (for kids) as a Chinese/INdian living in the affluent areas of Sydney like eastern suburbs and north shore.
    - Ryk on 01/03/2021 - 16:08
      
      Sydney lower north shore (North Sydney and Mosman LGAs) has a Private:Public ratio of 4:1 (high schools)
      
      Private schools: Alyosius, Loretto, Shore, Monte, Wenona, Marist, Redlands, Queenwood.
      Public; Mosman, Cameraygal.
      
      (NSBHS & NSGHS are selective so they dont count as real public schools)
Captain Miller on 01/03/2021 - 13:45

+1

There is another option to increase funding to public schools. Means test the parents. There are a lot of wealthy people educating there kids via the public system.
Ironically if you are on a high income and have no private health insurance you will pay more tax but a millionaire can send the kids of to the public system with zero to pay.
On the flip side I know of people who work two jobs to send their kids to private schools and they are far from being rich. Remove the funding from the private schools and the fees would rise and many would withdraw forcing more pressure on the public system.
A couple of interesting points.
I was advised it costs the taxpayers $6000 for every student in a public school and $3000 for every student in a private school. Also, 52% of children in Australia attending high school are in non-government institutions. (Voting power?)
Any teachers out there seen similar figures?
- Vallani on 01/03/2021 - 16:40
  
  +2
  
  Private schools love this idea because they think it will reduce the attraction of public schools and increase demand for private schools. It's a sure-fire way to destroy public education, turning it into a refuge for low income parents.
- netjock on 02/03/2021 - 03:31
  
  There are a lot of wealthy people educating there kids via the public system.
  
  Smart ones, they know their kids will be dead beats that will spend their money.
  
  I was advised it costs the taxpayers $6000 for every student in a public school and $3000 for every student in a private school
  
  Bit like medicare vs private health insurance. In theory paying less for private sector to step in.
- abb on 02/03/2021 - 10:19
  
  There is another option to increase funding to public schools. Means test the parents. There are a lot of wealthy people educating there kids via the public system.
  
  Beware that if too extreme, this could push the rich people towards private. It's a very good thing that there are rich kids in the public system! If you're not rich, you might want your kids to be friends with the rich kids for possible advantages later in life (this is why people pay to go to private schools - connections).
  
  Rich kids also tend to be better students, and it's beneficial for both the 'smart' and 'dumb' students to have a mix of ability levels in classes. (The lower performers get help from the better performers, and in helping others, the better performers further improve). [Citation needed, yes, but I did read one and CBF looking it up for a buried ozbargain comment]
  
  Remove the funding from the private schools and the fees would rise and many would withdraw forcing more pressure on the public system. […] $3000 for every student in a private school.
  
  I'm not sure your numbers are correct, but for sake of argument let's say they are. A $3k rise in fees is what, 10%? That's not going to push many people out.
  
  Further, more people moving to the public system would increase the priority of funding as a voting issue…
berry580 on 01/03/2021 - 14:20

When I was in yr 12. No school fee contribution equal no end of year school report.
School fee is not mandatory, neither is evidence of your school report as well by the looks of it.

To be fair, the school fee is already rock bottom price. Although some certain class "mates" are also rock bottom quality. Lol
imurgod on 01/03/2021 - 14:31

-2

It makes me sick every time I have to pay school fees (private).

I just paid some on Friday… It's just an insane amount of money.
- FoxJump on 01/03/2021 - 15:21
  
  Is it more or less than $153 per day?
  - Ryk on 01/03/2021 - 16:02
    
    >
  - imurgod on 01/03/2021 - 16:18
    
    Thankfully less, but I went through childcare as well for 2 kids.
    That was an absolute joke despite the exceptional, resort-like facilities.
    
    That said, 2 kids in private schools is way, way more than $153 per day.
    - FoxJump on 01/03/2021 - 21:53
      
      +1
      
      I have twins. i pay $153 per day for childcare per kid :(
      Sure .. the govt chips in $10k a kid per year but once that runs out in a FY then its the full $153 a day i get slapped with.
      
      And for that I get the benefit of my kids getting sick every week.
      - imurgod on 02/03/2021 - 09:21
        
        @FoxJump: Yep. Far too expensive for the average wage earner.
        
        I don't know how people do it. I'm lucky enough to earn a very high income but I don't know how I would have done any of it on the average Aussie wage.
        
        It really should be subsidised 100% for those who can't afford it so they can work to earn rather than work to keep their kid in daycare.
        
        Oh, and don't talk to me about them getting sick all the time…. it was a nightmare!!
        
        I can tell you though, it all gets better once they start school. Hang in there!
Ryk on 01/03/2021 - 15:50

+2

Public schools exist only to educate citizens to the point of being useful doers in the system, for exploitation by the owners of capital.
91rs on 01/03/2021 - 20:26

+1

Disheartening to see those against spending a little extra on their own children's education, that's really the thing I've taken away from this thread.
Why even have kids if you're going to do the bare minimum as a parent for them? Especially over such trivial amounts of money.
If it helps your kids great, that should be your goal, but even if it goes to helping others in the class or school what is the harm in that?
Easier to complain about how stupid kids are or how crap the schools are no doubt.
- imurgod on 02/03/2021 - 09:27
  
  It depends on how much people value education.
  
  I agree that a parent should stretch to provide the best opportunity for their kids to be educated. This will give them options in life.
  
  On the other side of the coin, there are parents who don't see education as a priority (being largely uneducated themselves).
  
  Same as people who complain about police but only because they keep breaking the law.
Apoca89 on 01/03/2021 - 20:35

A quick run down on how schools get funded (please take this with a grain of salt - it's not exactly correct butbenough to go on with).
Schools get a set amount of money per child enrolled on census DAY. That one day (I think it's been changed recently to multiple days but still).
This means if 50 students turn up the next day there is no extra funding for them (as an exaggerated example).
They get buildings based upon room space - principals don't calculate this, it gets calculated for them.
Teachers generally fit out a lot of their classrooms from their own pocket.
If you want extras, special events, student enrichment - pay the fees.
If you can't afford to, talk to the school and they'll help out.
If you can afford to and don't…
macfudge on 01/03/2021 - 21:32

+2

Wow, this discussion is nuts! Figures used as examples in the thread range from around $200 up to $1000 as "extra" for the year. How would you not pay this if you are economically able to? You would happily pay 20-30 bucks an hour for a babysitter, you would have paid $100+ per day in daycare and you would happily spend $50/week on beer down at the local, but $300 for a whole year of additional benefit for your kids? Whoah! That's not on! Seriously?

Government schools have fixed funding for the year based on number of students. They are also obligated to accept any new kids who arrive in their catchment during the year (with no additional funding). The government will also pay for school buildings and other facilities which are not cheap and so it's difficult to get these large expenditures through the system (hence the number of demountables in many public schools). The government funding is calculated to provide a set level of education for your child. Extras like music / band? Not considered part of the standard level of education. Museum visits, swimming carnivals, etc etc? Not considered part of the standard level of education.

So the schools ask you to pay a little extra (and seriously, it is a little in the big scheme of things) to be able to provide something over and above the standard level funded by government. It is for your children - they benefit.

The argument that government should stop funding private schools is severely flawed as well. How full is your local public school at the moment? I know our local primary is designed to cater for 300 students and currently has well over 500 enrolled. Stop funding private schools to "force" parents to send their kids to public would put a monumentally large strain on the public education system. It would not be viable and would simply cause everything to fall in a heap. Yes, private schools can offer more facilities than public schools but they fulfil an extremely important part of the education system. The lifetime cost (total cost including capital works, teaching funding etc) to government for a child in the public system is MORE than the amount they pay to private schools for that same child (generally). The parents of the private school kids pick up the tab for the extra and then add even more on top to ensure they provide the very best for their children.

At the end of the day, a child that goes to public school can be extremely successful and child that goes to the best private school can be a drop out. Raising a child is the responsibility of a lot of people - the school and the teaching staff are part of it but parents also need to actively participate and support their kids - help them with their homework, spend time with them, teach them about life instead of just leaving it all up to the school. If you are not able to afford private school perhaps that might require just a little extra effort on your part to help your child.

But please, give all schools the credit they richly deserve, private or public, teachers are among the most amazing people around. They have to deal with your kids far more than you do! Anything you can afford to help them with, you should do so gladly.

And please, this tall poppy syndrome is getting old. If someone has worked hard, put the effort in and been rewarded with a good job and a good salary, why would it fair for them to contribute more than their fair share to anything? Guaranteed, if you managed to move into a career where you were one of these "rich" people you keep talking about you would be the first to squeal when someone tells you that you need to be punished for your success.
- imurgod on 02/03/2021 - 09:28
  
  Well put
- fossilfuel on 02/03/2021 - 21:42
  
  Stop funding private schools to "force" parents to send their kids to public would put a monumentally large strain on the public education system.
  
  Which is why government should stop funding private schools and convert them to public schools. If private schools became public property, then it won't strain the public education system because there will be more than enough schools for students to attend.
  
  In the 1960's, Finland scrapped all their private schools and all Finnish schools are publicly funded. They have some of the best student results in the world and their education system is much less convoluted than ours. Have a read of this.
  
  The current Australian education system resembles the Finnish before significant educational reforms were introduced (data-driven curriculum, competition, private schools etc). Our politicians and beaurocrats will always bullshit and say that it's too expensive or it'll piss people off however, if Finland was able to reform their education system to produce some of the best learners in the world, Australia can too.
  - jv on 02/03/2021 - 21:44
    
    +1
    
    Which is why government should stop funding private schools and convert them to public schools.
    
    Who's going to pay to buy out the 1000's of private schools around Australia? and what if they don't want to sell?
    - fossilfuel on 02/03/2021 - 21:50
      
      Who's going to pay to buy out the 1000's of private schools around Australia? and what if they don't want to sell?
      
      That's for the ministers and politicians to figure out. Finland made it work, Australia can do it too.
      - jv on 02/03/2021 - 22:24
        
        @fossilfuel:
        
        That's for the ministers and politicians to figure out.
        
        Do you have any idea how much that would cost?
        
        fossilfuel on 02/03/2021 - 23:14
        
        @jv: No and you're using red herrings instead of addressing the point. This is about whether government should fund private schools NOT how much will it cost.
        
        jv on 02/03/2021 - 23:16
        
        @fossilfuel:
        
        This is about whether government should fund private schools not how much will it cost.
        
        and if you can read, you will see that all children should be funded or no students should be funded, otherwise it is discrimination…
        
        Parents that send their kids to private schools also pay tax and they shouldn't have to pay for other people's kids to go to school and not their own…
        
        fossilfuel on 02/03/2021 - 23:33
        
        @jv: The point is should government stop funding private schools NOT should all children be funded or no students be funded. Discrimination and funding are completely different and irrelevant points.
        
        jv on 02/03/2021 - 23:33
        
        @fossilfuel:
        
        The point is should government stop funding private schools
        
        They are funding the kids, not the schools. That's why we pay taxes. So that all kids can get an education.
        
        fossilfuel on 02/03/2021 - 23:42
        
        @jv:
        
        Parents that send their kids to private schools also pay tax and they shouldn't have to pay for other people's kids to go to school and not their own…
        
        Parents that send their kids to public schools also pay tax and they shouldn't have to pay for other people's kids to go to school and not their own…
        
        So your point being? It's a circular argument.
        
        They are funding the kids, not the schools.
        
        Funding is per student which ends up being used by the school.
        
        This is about The argument that government should stop funding private schools is severely flawed as well. NOT how private schools are being funded.
        
        jv on 02/03/2021 - 23:47
        
        @fossilfuel:
        
        Parents that send their kids to public schools also pay tax
        
        Correct, same as parents who send their kids to private school, so those kids deserve education funding too.
        
        Parents who work hard, long hours, work extra jobs, pay way more tax than they should, should not be penalised for it by the government. Their kids are just as deserving to get education funding that other parents who choose to spend their money on other things.
        
        fossilfuel on 02/03/2021 - 23:54
        
        @jv:
        
        Parents who work hard, long hours, work extra jobs, pay way more tax than they should, should not be penalised for it by the government. Their kids are just as deserving to get education funding that other parents who choose to spend their money on other things.
        
        Yes however the original point is government should stop funding private schools. You pay taxes to support public initiatives not private. If they choose to go to a private school, then they should not receive public money to fund their education.
        
        jv on 02/03/2021 - 23:57
        
        @fossilfuel:
        
        You pay taxes to support public initiatives not private.
        
        Education is a public initiative.
        
        Government funds lots of businesses and not-for-profits because they provide a public service, often better and more efficiently that the government can do themselves.
        
        fossilfuel on 03/03/2021 - 00:08
        
        @jv:
        
        Education is a public initiative.
        
        Education as a public initiative vs funding for a private school are separate. Students are entitled to education however this is about whether private schools should be funded by public money.
        
        Government funds lots of businesses and not-for-profits because the provide a public service, often better and more efficiently that the government can.
        
        A private school DOES NOT provide a public service to students.
        
        jv on 03/03/2021 - 00:21
        
        @fossilfuel:
        
        Education as a public initiative vs funding for a private school are separate.
        
        This thread is about funding education and whether the government should discriminate against families exercising their right to choose their kid's education.
        
        andresampras on 03/03/2021 - 11:56
        
        @jv: disclaimer: not trying to be funny or anything, this is a serious question.
        
        does the AU govt provide any funding assistance to parents who send their school kids overseas?
        
        jv on 03/03/2021 - 11:58
        
        @andresampras: i doubt it.
luffyex2010 on 01/03/2021 - 22:52

Its a public school what do you expect….how much could it be/or they want? Hundreds? Thousands?

If my kid's teacher are happy and provide excellent teaching, any parents will be happy.

If every parent not happy with the contribution, do send the kids to private school they have a very detail itemised billing. Maybe the money is worth more value over there.

Nothing more to debate. Just pay without any questions asked.
[Deactivated] on 01/03/2021 - 23:05

-1

Unbelievable discussion - you don't pay voluntary fees at hospitals, parks or when the cops pull you over for your safety — why is hell would you pay voluntary fees to schools.

I have sent specialist teachers to over 6000 schools in 4 countries and can tell you Australian schools don't deserve it and will squander it via 'committee decision making'.

It is a pot of money with limited oversight and direction from parents.

The best decision that could be made for NSW Government schools is to remove the power of veto that the socialist/communist Teachers Union have over the curriculum - your state government is held hostage by the teachers union on the content of your childs education.

This is the same union who would promote the supercheap subsidised aeroflot holidays to the Soviet Union for teachers during school holidays in the 1970's to explore and learn about communist and marxist ideology. These vermin have now infested the hinge policy positions of Dept Ed hierarchy.

As a child my parents refused to pay the fees 'on principle' I can assure you these socialists will remember, will talk amongst themselves and will ask your children why they haven't paid - at least they did in the old days.

The cancer will affect their grading consciously or unconsciously.
- p1 ama on 01/03/2021 - 23:54
  
  +1
  
  you don't pay voluntary fees at hospitals, parks or when the cops pull you over for your safety
  
  Most hospitals, parks and emergency services (not police specifically, but others) have charity arms where you can donate money on a voluntary basis. It's the same thing with schools, it's a voluntary charitable donation. Nothing more, nothing less.
  
  The best decision that could be made for NSW Government schools is to remove the power of veto that the socialist/communist Teachers Union have over the curriculum - your state government is held hostage by the teachers union on the content of your childs education.
  
  The state government hasn't been responsible for curriculum in almost a decade. Get with the times my friend.
  
  This is the same union who would promote the supercheap subsidised aeroflot holidays to the Soviet Union for teachers during school holidays in the 1970's to explore and learn about communist and marxist ideology. These vermin have now infested the hinge policy positions of Dept Ed hierarchy.
  
  I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I've worked as a teacher. I've met teachers who are from all places on the political spectrum. On average, yes, teachers are left leaning, but so are many other professions. I've never met a teacher who has talked about communist or Marxist ideology. Either way, I don't see how political views shape one's ability to teach algebra, calculus or chemistry.
  
  As a child my parents refused to pay the fees 'on principle' I can assure you these socialists will remember, will talk amongst themselves and will ask your children why they haven't paid - at least they did in the old days.
  
  Teachers don't know who pays what and who doesn't. Ultimately nobody cares. I've never understood why people are so self-obssessed. You're literally one in hundreds, if not thousands of students. Nobody has the time to give a flying hoot about whether your parents made contributions or not. And what is with calling teachers socialists? There are hundreds of thousands of teachers in Australia, they're obviously not one monolithic block of people.
  - abb on 02/03/2021 - 10:27
    
    On average, yes, teachers are left leaning, but so are many other professions.
    
    Indeed, progressive political views are correlated with higher education.
- mdavant on 02/03/2021 - 15:52
  
  Don't worry, I'll pay your share.
  
  I probably do for most things anyway.
p1 ama on 01/03/2021 - 23:56

+1

Reading this thread has helped me understand why the schooling system in Australia is so broken and why there seem to be an ever increasing number of idiots every day.
- [Deactivated] on 02/03/2021 - 01:12
  
  -1
  
  I have provided teachers to over 6000 schools in 4 countries.
  
  We only employed recently graduated new teachers because career teachers become so institutionalised from never having stepped out of the educational arena they see their collective myopia as enlightenment.
  
  It is truely a most typical response by teachers to blame the students but never themselves.
  
  The teachers Union has veto over NSW Education curriculum.
  
  If the 'Teaching System' produces an "ever increasing number of idiots every day" then the common factor must be the educational content and teacher - all other things being equal in a time of increasing wealth, technology, information and knowledge.
  
  If a teacher laments the average result of 13 years of their input perhaps it's time to admit they do not deliver quality or results.To not lament the result of your failing indoctrination instituted by your colleagues in the Teachers Union as the cause is disingenuous or institutionalised blindness.
  
  For anyone deeply interested in the failings of education a short journey with three time New York City Teacher of the Year, and one time New York State Teacher of the Year John Taylor Gatto is a few hours valuably spent if you love your children and especially if your child is intelligent and capable.
  
  At least please just watch the first one
  
  John Taylor Gatto - The Purpose Of Schooling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeEWPbTad_Q
  
  John Taylor Gatto - What Does It Mean To Be Truly Educated? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ty3hBXN-oM
  
  John Taylor Gatto: The Pathology of Schooling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxzLEG7hUGU
  
  John Taylor Gatto - A Short Angry History Of Modern Schooling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_5h0aO8ZaE
  
  Quotes https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/41319.John_Taylor_Ga…
  - netjock on 02/03/2021 - 03:34
    
    +2
    
    I think parents try to outsource their responsibilities to schools too much. The education system is minimum standard. Those kids who do better have parents who invest time (not necessarily money only) into their children.
    - Takeonme on 02/03/2021 - 13:39
      
      Exactly.
- [Deactivated] on 02/03/2021 - 15:26
  
  +1
  
  Anyone who has been around the 'Teachers System' long enough knows and remembers their protests and claims for more technology, more training, more skilled teachers, more pay, more opportunities for advancement and recognition, more teachers assistants, more resources for <insert minority/diversity group> AND lower class sizes.
  
  Remember they claimed it was in the best interests of the children and no child should be left behind - it wasn't the Children's fault - it was the Government for not appeasing to their demands.
  
  Well now never satisfied or self reflective witness the teachers hypocrisy of blaming those same children for current educational failings - their idiocracy is producing idiots - little wonder.
  
  Here's just the latest example - albeit the USA the same ideology applies
  
  Berkeley Federation of Teachers president Matt Meyer, who has incessantly preached about how unsafe it is for students to return to the classroom, came under fire from a local group of concerned moms after he was spotted dropping off his two-year-old daughter at a private learning institution for in-person learning.
  
  https://www.zerohedge.com/political/after-leading-school-clo…
mdavant on 02/03/2021 - 15:51

Most of the people complaining about paying stuff all of a contribution to essentially free education forget that the people who actually pay majority of the taxes for schools to run would undoubtedly pay contributions always.
mitchellp on 02/03/2021 - 18:10

+1

Just looking into this thread and decided to look at my kids statements.

The sport fee alone is $324 for each child (NSW public primary school) to cover the cost of an external provider to do the sport lessons.
cheaptech20 on 02/03/2021 - 22:04

If tax dollars were adequately distributed, essential fees for courses should really be covered. There is evidence in our plummeting global rankings, this system is broken.
I don't buy into the "public schools would be over capacity " argument. Adequately fund public schools and you have:
- More equitable outcomes as public schools are well funded and resourced
- Greater social mobility as poor kids still access great public schools
I don't want us to get even worse and go down the US route with charter schools…

But at the moment we are at about 80/20 for pay all fees vs pay no fees. Interesting.
- mdavant on 03/03/2021 - 04:58
  
  And scrap selective schools. Free private schooling for middle to upper class families at the expense of well balanced public schools.
  - cheaptech20 on 09/03/2021 - 09:14
    
    I'd argue the presence of selective schools is the only thing keeping average public school grades at an acceptable level - such is the failure of the public system
    - mdavant on 10/03/2021 - 08:56
      
      Sure. Let's pick winners in year 6.
      
      Let's take away competition from the other public schools.
      
      What is wrong with general public schools having genuine a stream classes?
bigbadboogieman on 03/03/2021 - 18:19

No kids… I did not know that Public schools in NSW had school fee. I always thought it's all covered in our taxes.
- mdavant on 10/03/2021 - 08:57
  
  A lot of people don't pay income tax do they.

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