Recording Video While Calling 000 - Is It Possible?

Lady Grey Tea on 07/03/2021 - 23:42
Last edited 08/03/2021 - 00:32

Hi all,

Today, I unfortunately was the sole witness to a violent incident (a large man punching and kicking another man on the ground), while walking my dog early in the morning. From a safe distance (I'm a petite girl with a smallish elderly dog) I start to video for evidence and call 000 at the same time.

As soon as I get through to the police, my video app cuts out and says I can't phone and video at the same time. I ended up with only 30 seconds of footage or so. The police still found it useful but it was frustrating.

Is there a tweak or app that lets you phone and film together? Until today, I didn't know this was an issue but want to be prepared for the future.

I've searched reddit and the app store, but no luck yet. Any ideas about what might work? Thanks again for any suggestions.

Edit: my phone is a galaxy s10e on Android 11, and I was using Bluetooth headphones

Mobile Mobile Phone Samsung Android

Comments

  • deme on 07/03/2021 - 23:46

    Which operating system and version?

    I'm on android 11 and have done this many times, even when doing video calls taking video just kills the video in the video call.

    Thanks for being an awesome human btw reporting it.

    I wonder if the order is important thought I don't think I've taken a call while recording video. Let me test.

    Oh lame as soon as you minimise the camera app it stops. I think you'll need to call 000 then start the video again next time.

    • Lady Grey Tea on 07/03/2021 - 23:49

      Samsung galaxy s10e, Android 11.
      It's possible it cut out because it recognised I was calling the emergency services. I haven't tested it on a regular phone call as that hadn't occurred to me. It certainly put a message up on the screen saying "camera can't be used during emergemcy calls". Maybe it's saving power? Either way, it seems very unhelpful.

      I'll do some trial and error too, and see what order works. I can't quite remember but I think I did try to start the camera again after it closed and then I got that message on the screen.

      As far as reporting it, all I could think of was one punch hit deaths, and was terrified that the guy on the ground might not ever get up again!

      • deme on 07/03/2021 - 23:54
        +3

        I don't really know why that message happened.
        If I had to take a guess from experience it would be some compliance with ACMA. But I'm just guessing.

        Could you go to settings > about > send feedback

        And write a quick Camera doesn't work during emergency calls. I needed to record evidence of a crime….

        • Lady Grey Tea on 07/03/2021 - 23:56

          Good thinking, I can do that. I wonder what they'll come back with. I had a quick look on the emergency services webpage, but it was mainly about staying safe and not videoing in a scenario where it could put you in danger (I.e if a building is collapsing). Will report back if I hear anything :)

          • Scrooge McDuck on 08/03/2021 - 04:32

            @Lady Grey Tea: Was the victim OK?

            Did they catch the perpetrator?

            • Lady Grey Tea on 08/03/2021 - 06:51
              +3

              @Scrooge McDuck: Yes, they did, and when I left the scene after giving my statement, the victim was conscious, though I don't know what damage he sustained. I doubt I'll ever hear anything more from the police about it, as I've provided all I know, so no need to contact me again. But I'm glad that they were on the scene so quickly.

              • Scrooge McDuck on 08/03/2021 - 10:18
                +1

                @Lady Grey Tea: That must have been very confronting. But you did an invaluable deed for the victim and quite possibly the perpetrator too, so bravo.

                • Lady Grey Tea on 08/03/2021 - 13:12
                  +2

                  @Scrooge McDuck: I was a little shook up for the rest of the day, but honestly didn't even think twice before calling 000, because all I could think of was that the guy on ground might not ever get up again if I didn't. So, in the end I was glad I happened to be there to call the police, really! :)

                  • Tee Rex Arms on 08/03/2021 - 13:31
                    +1

                    @Lady Grey Tea: Depending on what state you’re in, the police will need to sit you down for a typed statement of witness which you sign 1 of 3 copies and keep 1.

                    If the matter goes to court then you may be required to give verbal evidence in court and introduce your recording into evidence.

      • abb on 08/03/2021 - 14:04
        +1

        Maybe it's saving power?

        This was my first thought.

        Imagine if you accidentally trigged a video recording while trying to call for help in some emergency, and as a result you ran out of battery power before you could finish the call…

        Taking a video for evidence is less important than getting help mobilised. You can give eyewitness testimony, narrate the events to the call taker ("the big guy in the green shirt just punched her again") or take video after the call.

        (you might suggest "do that only when the battery is low", but the battery level is not always reliable)

  • dizzle on 07/03/2021 - 23:52
    +2

    That would depend on the phone, the apps and maybe what version OS they use.

    I think the issue you had was switching from the video app (to anything) stopped the recording.

    I know my phone if I start a phonecall, switching apps it will minimise the phonecall and I can do pretty much anything including video. But if I start the video recording and then minimise it stops the video straight away.

    So try the calling first, then switch to the video app.

    • Lady Grey Tea on 07/03/2021 - 23:54

      Thanks, as I mentioned above Samsung galaxy s10e, Android 11.

      It does seem the order is important, I'll have a play tomorrow and see if I can call someone, and then start videoing. Until today, I'd never closed the app mid video, so I learned something new, I guess!

  • funeste on 08/03/2021 - 00:06

    You’ve shown some light on a significant gap in smart phone functions. It surprises me you can’t make a call and video at the same time. “Do I film or do I call” shouldn’t be mutually exclusive because it’s the same impulse. Plus in a tense, scary situation you want to document and ask for help at the same time, ideally.

    Although the ability to record a phone call ought not be possible, so that may be why it’s not possible to film and talk at the same time - thoughts?

    • Lady Grey Tea on 08/03/2021 - 00:17
      +5

      Plus in a tense, scary situation you want to document and ask for help at the same time, ideally.

      Exactly! I would have thought that if your phone recognises that you're calling the emergency services, it would open up some of the restrictions, not close them (such as voice recording or sending private data ect). I think the only thing it does do is that it it automatically sends your gps location to the police.

      The scary part is finding all this out on the spot, so when the guy started walking towards me, I wasn't filming anymore, but just got out of there and the operator told me to stay on the line and stay safe. But later, I had no proof of this beyond the phone call, and just my 30 seconds of footage.

      Nowadays, I know everyone is filming incidents, not always appropriately, but in a scenario like this, where you are alone, it seemed really important to use the video as a) evidence but also b) potentially protecting yourself as they might stop if they realise they're on video.

      • cfuse on 08/03/2021 - 17:18

        I would have thought that if your phone recognises that you're calling the emergency services, it would open up some of the restrictions, not close them (such as voice recording or sending private data ect).

        That's the thing though: your phone doesn't have to recognise anything, and given it is an emergency function it may even be preferable to have the phone stay as much out of the way as possible. Nobody needs a crashing phone on that call.

        I think the only thing it does do is that it it automatically sends your gps location to the police.

        No, it doesn't.

        A call to 000 is exactly that, a voice call. No data, no special anything. As such 000 gets to see one bit of location data: the mobile network cell you are connected to for telephony. That information can be very useful for figuring out where you are, but cell areas, even in cities, can be big. If you are moving it can make it easier because mobiles seamlessly hand off between network cells, and the 000 staff should be able to see that at their end.

        • Techie4066 on 09/03/2021 - 19:18

          As such 000 gets to see one bit of location data: the mobile network cell you are connected to for telephony. That information can be very useful for figuring out where you are, but cell areas, even in cities, can be big. If you are moving it can make it easier because mobiles seamlessly hand off between network cells, and the 000 staff should be able to see that at their end.

          Your phone is always "aware" of multiple cell towers in range, and most of the GPS work done on your phone is triangulation between multiple cell towers to which it is connected (not A-GPS from satellites, which is what most people think) - it is not just "a cell". That is what allows your phone to transfer seamlessly between towers, to the closest tower with the best signal.

          Also, you're wrong - since December, AML has been implemented, automatically providing GPS location within 5-25m accuracy.

          • cfuse on 10/03/2021 - 00:35

            @Techie4066: Your phone gets a signal strength from cell towers and nothing (well, little. Cells have ids, etc.) more. It doesn't know anything about position, and without a known fixed point (which is central to A-GPS) it cannot trivially perform triangulation.

            All the phone will do is attempt to use the strongest valid signal it can register on (yes, I know there's more to the handshake than that) to transmit. I don't know the exact failover pattern for 000 calls but I would imagine it starts with the registered carrier and then tries others (I wouldn't even begin to guess at the rules governing handoffs here, or the interactions with AML that could result in. I'm glad that's not my job to figure out).

            You need to read your own link here:

            Section "If AML information is not available" tells you what 000 can see without device assistance. This is all they can get without the device performing additional processing.

            Sections "AML works across all of mainland Australia" and "AML will not work if you are emergency ‘camped-on’ on another provider’s network" indicates that AML requires carrier based SMS functionality, and that AML will not work without a valid provider. SMS is a packetized, unreceipted transfer. Client side, this is firing a message off into the ether and hoping it gets there (and I know this because I'm old and had to support it in the days when it didn't work. I had spare pagers in my desk drawer for that reason).

            Finally, and most damningly, section "Turning AML off" indicates that this is by nature supplementary information. If you can turn something off then it isn't part of the basic nature of an emergency service. Everything about AML is telling you that this is a nice to have, but don't count on it feature.

            As an aside: it would be interesting to know if AML can be spoofed. Despite claims that AML cannot be used to track people that statement is clearly epic bullshit. Handing the carrier some bullshit data might be useful. As AML is an SMS, presumably it could simply be faked without any GPS spoofing at all.

            • Techie4066 on 10/03/2021 - 08:53

              @cfuse: Network-based GPS triangulation

              How else do you think something as small as your phone gets a strong GPS signal during storms etc? Obviously A-GPS is used when you're in the country and you're only connected to one tower, but most of the GPS work is done by cell towers in cities through MLAT and GSM.

              Your device knows the location of each cell tower it's connected to, and measures distance based upon the strength of the signal and triangulation.

              Additionally, you have to dig into your settings to turn emergency location off. I don't think many people are aware of this.

              it isn't part of the basic nature of an emergency service

              Yes it is… They trialled it in 2016 and have now decided to implement it. Most of the time, location is available because most calls come from cities.

              • cfuse on 10/03/2021 - 15:01

                @Techie4066: TL;DR - This whole thing is a quibble. Ordinary people don't give a crap about the mechanics of positioning.

                Your phone doesn't do the work of positioning because it cannot do the work with what data it can gather on its own.

                Again, read your own link. It's literally in the title of "Network based". This is a carrier/provider service and cannot be done without third party data and participation. The A-GPS page on wikipedia goes into that in detail.

                For triangulation to work you have to know where two of the points on the triangle are. GPS satellites know where they are (thanks to some horribly complex math involving intersecting spheres, atomic clocks, and quantum physics to correct for the effects of spacetime/gravity on said atomic clocks accuracy), they tell receivers where they are, and then the receiver can calculate where it is thanks to that data (which is why GPS is a simplex technology. You only have to listen to the signal to get everything you need, no transmission occurs). You don't need a giant aerial for GPS and dedicated handheld GPS devices are the proof of that.

                Storms aren't a problem for GPS (as long as you can see the sky clearly), but solid objects are. Stand in the rain as much as you like and it won't make much difference, walk into a parking structure with a GPS receiver (and not a mobile which will have all the fancy A-GPS features) and watch it have no clue where you are.

                The basic issue here is really simple: your phone only has positional data it has been given by an external source, it cannot compute its own position just from what it can gather itself. Even when it is involved in third party triangulation it is always the unknown point to be solved. If dead reckoning was a solved problem then we never would have needed GPS in the first place (we didn't launch hundreds of satellites at the cost of billions just for the fun of it).

                In day to day use the A-GPS that most people use is less about mobile carriers and more about wifi. If your network is on then it's able to see SSIDs and both google and apple have giant databases of that information. You can easily get a faster position from a look up of your neighbours SSIDs to google than by using GPS or A-GPS.

                Finally, and quoting from your own previous link, "AML will not work if you are emergency ‘camped-on’ on another provider’s network". This is not a fundamental part of the system because it only works under certain circumstances. It's nice to have but it's an optional extra and not something baked in at the foundation.

    • cfuse on 08/03/2021 - 16:17
      +1

      There are all sorts of non-user centric issues at play here, some of which might be unavoidable.

      At the very top of the stack is the nature of emergency calling, mobile services, and mobile handsets. It is a legal requirement that 000 works on a handset (https://www.acma.gov.au/emergency-calls). As long as it has battery and is in range of any provider it just has to work. It has to do so when it is locked (any kind of lock, including anything a carrier or provider might do to a stolen phone, for example). Emergency calling, via mobile services, must take precedence over everything else.

      I cannot speak to iOS, but on Android there are a lot of barriers (purportedly for security) within the scope of what applications can do, and when they can do it. This also varies by Android version and by manufacturer hardware implementations. So if you're an app developer you're probably going to steer as clear as you can from features that are difficult to implement or that may disappear with an OS or firmware update.

      Audio call recording falls into the above. This is a feature that can be difficult to impossible even when you explicitly want to do it as a user. It's a huge PITA but it's a good way for google to cover their asses legally. Video recording and picture taking can have the same kinds of problems, but generally to a lesser degree.

      Legally, there's no way a developer could make a user app that acts like a badge cam and calls the cops. Pragmatically, they couldn't do it either, because of platform constraints like those above.

      What really needs to happen at this point is an upgrade to the 000 service on mobile. If we can mandate for 000 calling to work then we can also mandate for badge cam and call functionality to be exposed to the user. It's entirely possible to make an app that will only function as a badge cam/000 caller. Literally two buttons: call and stop, and a viewfinder to see what you're doing. The problem with that is that it has to be a stream (because local storage cannot be guaranteed) and therefore it has to have a network connection (which is independent to the calling functionality on a mobile. Welcome to the wonderful world of legacy/multiple comms standards). I have no idea how viable that would be on the provider backend (if they're already carrying 000 traffic over IP then you'd imagine issues of service levels would have been dealt with, but I'm not going to assume).

  • bazingaa on 08/03/2021 - 00:21
    +3

    That is because both phone app and video app need to access the microphone to get audio input. Try with a bluetooth headphone for phone app and built-in mic for camera app to record video + audio, but I haven't tested it.

    • Lady Grey Tea on 08/03/2021 - 00:25

      Hmm, good to know. I was using Bluetooth headphones to make the call. I don't know quite how to change the settings to split the mic settings but I will have a try. The thing is, I don't know I'd be able to do it on the spot in an emergency!

      • Hybroid on 08/03/2021 - 00:28
        -1

        You didn't mention which device you have but I don't think it's possible anyway. You can take photos on an iPhone while on a call, but not video.

        • Lady Grey Tea on 08/03/2021 - 00:34

          Using a galaxy s10e on Android 11.
          Yes, I've always been able take photos while on a call, but today was the first time I tried to video and so was surprised I couldn't! Judging from feedback, it seems universal across all phone types (unless you jailbreak/root, I guess)

          • bazingaa on 08/03/2021 - 13:38

            @Lady Grey Tea: I have a S10 running Android 11. I managed to record video while on a phone call but the recorded video doesn't have audio recorded. I used Google Camera (GCam) instead of Samsung Camera as it didn't allow me to record video while on a call. May be you can use some other 3rd party camera app as well.

  • Newgod on 08/03/2021 - 00:36
    +7

    Thanks OP for your bravery, and bringing up this neglected matter.

    I've tested with an iPhone and whenever I have a call, the camera function is totally hidden. So regarding the order of opening apps like previous suggestion, it's not applicable that way for iOS.

    However, I found a workaround: record your screen when you're hovering your camera around, whichever mode is fine (even photo taking), as long as you have the camera on. Though you can't record any sound but at least have some video as proof. Hope it works with your Android too.

    • Lady Grey Tea on 08/03/2021 - 00:43
      +2

      Thank you, that is a very clever work around. I just tried it on my Android and it worked perfectly, as you said - no sound, but video is better than nothing!
      I think I'll add it as a shortcut on my main screen for future reference (so I remember how to do it.)

      Thanks for the excellent out of the box thinking, I'm sure it's going to help someone out in the future :)

      • Newgod on 08/03/2021 - 00:57

        Wonderful, adding a shortcut is a great idea too! I wonder if you can record a call in Android as it might help you gain some audio proof, in iOS we can only do so after jailbreaking.
        But I reckon audio is not too necessary since 000 would record all calls, so any noise caught up in the conversation can be your evidence too.

    • kiitos on 08/03/2021 - 07:20

      How do you do that?

      • Newgod on 08/03/2021 - 15:53
        +1

        Turn on screen recording first, then you can give a call and open camera app without taking anything, hover it around as if you’re recording. It will have the camera input but no sound.

  • ECE on 08/03/2021 - 01:50
    +6

    Just bring two phones.It will solve the problem next time 😷

    • Lady Grey Tea on 08/03/2021 - 06:56

      Haha, yes another good idea, though an expensive one, as I'd have to buy another one. Could also wear a go pro like cyclists, and become a human dash cam lol. Something tells me I'm going to start looking like the suspicious one!

      Though, I suppose you don't need a phone plan for the second phone, just have to remember to keep it charged so you can use the video app…

  • trustnoone on 08/03/2021 - 04:13

    my phone is a galaxy s10e on Android 11,

    I feel like this is a new thing on Samsung, because I swear I never had issues with it before. But now I can't recieve MMS vids unless I quit my call and I don't think I can record as well? I haven't tried a photo yet, but I swear it only started happening at the start of this year. Once they updated android and brought in the new UI.

    • Lady Grey Tea on 08/03/2021 - 06:59

      Could be, because it certainly surprised me, as I too thought I had done it before. I have never had much luck with video mms though, and tend to use WhatsApp for videos.

  • kiitos on 08/03/2021 - 07:23
    +1

    I found a similar problem when trying to take a photo when I have the flash on as a torch - the flash turns off so the camera app can use it. Often I want the flash to remain on and the camera app to just use the torch light for exposure and so I can see where to aim the camera.. Instead I get no torch and can't see where to aim the camera, and the photo often is it of focus as a result.

  • spal on 08/03/2021 - 08:55
    +2

    Thank you for your kindness. In case of an emergency, preservation of life has priority over evidence gathering.

    You call helped the victim in getting help. Which might make a big difference in their recovery. What you witness itself is also evidence. Plus, what you say to the 000 call taker is also recorded and noted by the call taker. So, the evidence as it is happening is preserved. Your video could have been of additional value if you would have noticed any odd behaviour by the person before the actual assault itself.

    I would say that the Police will contact you once they process the case to charge the person. As you have witnessed a violent crime, they might also contact you to see how you are doing and refer you to the victims of crime resources.

    • Lady Grey Tea on 08/03/2021 - 13:04
      +1

      Thank you for your kind comment, and I feel confident the police will take whatever steps they need to. And yes, they do have the recording of the call itself, in which I describe what's happening, so there should be enough evidence if anyone decides to proceed with charges or not.

  • MontyMacaw on 08/03/2021 - 10:12
    -1

    You probably won’t have to do that again so move on.

    • GrueHunter on 08/03/2021 - 11:09
      +7

      The universe doesn't remember how many violent crimes you've seen then set a cap. "Hey you've seen one so let's make sure you never see another one." It does do stuff like "public violent crimes are not black swan events, but rather correlated with underlying socioeconomic drivers and locational factors, so if you've seen one in an area you're actually more likely to see another one in the same area."

      You're also ignoring all of the other people who are yet to see a crime being committed but may do so in the future, black swan or not.

      • Lady Grey Tea on 08/03/2021 - 12:59
        +3

        Yes, and as I've mentioned in my reply, all knowledge is useful and sharing these stories may help out someone else or make them aware of their phones limitations.

        Also, as you've noted, yes, my area is a little rougher around the edges than others (and early in the morning does bring out some of the troubled souls, mingling amongst the dog walkers and joggers), though most of the time I feel pretty safe and there is no call for alarm. Yesterday, however, was a different story and realising that I couldn't video and call together was a bit of a surprise.

        Knowing how to call and video will also come in handy for situations such as if you're being followed at night by someone suspicious. My trick is usually to call someone (hello mum) and stay on the line until I can find a handy cafe or maccas to go inside. Making a video at the same time would also be useful in that case. On international women's day especially, it seems apt to share the discussion and the ideas the great community here have come up with.

        • Newgod on 08/03/2021 - 16:39

          Your topic is absolutely helpful to everyone. Like survival skills, you never know if you will apply them but you should always know.

          Sorry that you’re living in a troublesome area. As you said, calling someone or even pretending to do so can help dampen the criminal intention of stalkers. Another thing to keep in mind is not to use headphones as it might make you look vulnerable and harder to observe the surroundings.

          So when you’re alone, most secured way is to always hold your phone, calling someone (best to have video calling without headphones). Mind your surroundings and prepare to trigger the emergency SOS mode on your phone if anything occurs.

    • Lady Grey Tea on 08/03/2021 - 12:48
      +1

      I wish it were so, but unfortunately I live in an area that has its share of troubled people, and having to walk my dog early, I occasionally see a little bit of the rougher side of life.

      I hope that you are right and I never need to call 000 again, but all knowledge is useful and if I ever need to film and call at the same time, for whatever reason (even if not an emergency) I am glad I know I have some options now.

      Plus, other people may not be aware that this does happen to the camera app when on a call, so it's a good discussion to have.

  • bargain huntress on 08/03/2021 - 11:56

    The scary part is finding all this out on the spot, so when the guy started walking towards me, I wasn't filming anymore, but just got out of there and the operator told me to stay on the line and stay safe. But later, I had no proof of this beyond the phone call, and just my 30 seconds of footage.

    you had to run away?

    • Lady Grey Tea on 08/03/2021 - 13:01
      +3

      Unfortunately, the attacker noticed me, and although I was on the other side of the road, started to approach me, at which point I backed away and walked off quite quickly (not ran) while still on the line to the police, who told me to keep myself safe first.

      After I eventually hung up, I got a call back about 5 minutes later from the police asking me to return to the area as they had everyone involved and wanted the video and a statement.

      So, run away, no, but remove myself from the situation, absolutely yes.

  • smalltime0 on 08/03/2021 - 18:08

    Good of you to bother helping, rather than walk away.
    It doesn't matter how much footage you got, the man beating the other when he is clearly defenceless is enough.
    When you submit the evidence, you might get a summons to court to testify. It is merely a "where were you, what time was it, did you hear anything not recorded on the footage etc."

    But, uh, next time call 000 then video/photograph. In case he managed to run you down.
    A sole witness with no discernible link to the victim (especially a petite girl walking her older dog) will still fly in court.

  • BertieBrown on 08/03/2021 - 22:04

    That sounds terrifying. I really hope you’re okay, and can reach to a friend, or a counsellor if you need to talk about what you saw.

    I understand that the violence was directed at another person, but please take care of yourself.

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