[VIC] Vacate Clean Not up to "Sales Standard"?

Lanushi on 10/05/2021 - 14:11

My partner and I recently ended our apartment tenancy due to the landlord wanting to sell. The property went to auction, with the buyer wanting to occupy the premises after settlement.

We had been in the property for just over 2 years when this occurred. The landlord offered us a rent free period of 2 weeks out of goodwill for the inconvenience caused. We vacated and cleaned the property to their list of requirements including a professional steam clean.

Our property manager has come back to say that the vacate clean was done well, but not done to "sales standard." And because of this, has decided to hire a professional cleaner and invoice us for it. Thankfully we were able to negotiate this from being removed from our bond.

I personally do not think that it should be the responsibility of the tenant to have the property cleaned for a buyer-occupier. My question is, are we legally responsible for paying for this?

Poll Options expired

  • 5
    Yes, you are responsible
  • 131
    No, you are not responsible
  • 0
    Other - comment below
Home & Garden

Comments

  • Fredfloresjr on 10/05/2021 - 14:16
    +14

    1-2 hit combo by the real estate agent and the cleaner. BTW, group of friends are from both sectors. Disgusting tactic.

    • SF3 on 10/05/2021 - 20:53
      +4

      Wouldn’t surprise me this property manager is taking “extras” from the landlords and the tenants to line their own pockets.

  • Cheaplikethebird on 10/05/2021 - 14:19
    +13

    Not done to 'sales standard'? That's a hustle.

    • HeWhoKnows on 11/05/2021 - 09:53
      +1

      Never heard of cleaning to "sales standard"

      Thats a new one for me and definitely the responsibility of THE OWNER

      Tenant is obliged to return the unit in the same or better condition as when it was occupied.

      The incoming condition report is hence the standard.

      Nothing else

  • beeawwb on 10/05/2021 - 14:20
    +11

    AFAIK you only need to keep the property "reasonably" clean. Expecting it to be showroom shiny doesn't sound reasonable to me.

    TenantsVIC states: "You have to leave the place 'reasonably' clean but this does not mean you have to steam clean the carpets or pay for professional cleaners."

    • Stopback on 10/05/2021 - 14:34
      +4

      What is considered ‘reasonably clean’ can depend on how long you have lived in the property and what state it was in when you moved in.

      • beeawwb on 10/05/2021 - 14:37
        +3

        True, and as "reasonably" isn't specifically defined there's some room for interpretation but expecting it to be "sales standard" after 2 years living goes beyond reasonable.

      • wizzy on 10/05/2021 - 14:53
        +1

        Different people have different standards as to what they consider "reasonble" too. This adds confusion.

        For example, I don't think it's reasonable to leave grease in a rangehood mesh filter, mould in a bathroom, or dust on skirting boards or window sills. But I'm sure that lots of other people would think this is perfectly reasonable and not even notice it.

        In Queensland tenants are required to leave the property in the same condition they found it. That seems a bit easier to me as long as the incoming condition report is sufficiently detailed (and honest).

        • Ridiculous Panda on 10/05/2021 - 22:07
          +1

          Leaving it in the same condition you found it is easier said than done. If it was the case, a 30 year old apartment would look the same as a new one.

          • wizzy on 11/05/2021 - 07:13
            +2

            @Ridiculous Panda: Ha!

            Yes that is true, although it also allows for fair wear and tear which is meant to cover deterioration due to age.

      • HeWhoKnows on 11/05/2021 - 09:57
        +1

        Yes and no
        You are confusing reasonably clean with reasonable wear and tear

        Its easy to clean a place to a high standard
        Its difficult to restore reasonable wear and tear and not required either.

        But yes
        you only need to hand over the place in the same condition as it was when you entered it.
        Anything cleaner/better is optional to the tenant

        The incoming condition report is the standard required

    • timthetoolman on 10/05/2021 - 16:43
      +2

      Does it negate that when you sign a contract to say you will get a professional steam clean when you leave though?

      • beeawwb on 11/05/2021 - 08:12
        +1

        I'm not 100% sure but I'd think that would be different. If you sign a modified agreement that states you must get steam cleaning prior to your exit then you would have to do that, I know in the last apartment I lived in I had to do that (note: QLD) - but while I suspect the OP's agreement might have had a requirement for steam cleaning I doubt that there was a requirement that the whole apartment be cleaned to "sales standard".

      • Love a bargain on 11/05/2021 - 13:08

        If I remember correctly, doesn't the tenancy legislation basically say any such clause is not legal nor enforceable? (It's been a long time since I last checked though.)

  • Muzeeb on 10/05/2021 - 14:23
    +15

    Thankfully we were able to negotiate this from being removed from our bond.

    That not negotiating. That's letting yourself getting reamed.

    • Lanushi on 10/05/2021 - 14:28

      How so? Having it not taken out of the bond prevents us from having issues applying for rental properties in the future.

      • coffeeinmyveins on 10/05/2021 - 14:30
        +7

        Because you still paid for it, or at least that's what I'm assuming based on you saying you prevented it from "coming out of your bond". You didn't need to pay for this, you got taken to the cleaners.

      • Muzeeb on 10/05/2021 - 14:30
        +11

        Because you shouldn't be paying for the additional cleaning at all.

      • brendanm on 10/05/2021 - 16:10
        +4

        Because it's not something you should have to pay for, full stop. Why don't people know their rights?

        • Lanushi on 10/05/2021 - 20:29

          It's a bit of a curly one. I've read my tenants rights, and this aint in there.

          • brendanm on 10/05/2021 - 21:10
            +1

            @Lanushi: It's not a curly one at all. You clean it to a state a reasonable person would accept. The dirty scumbag property manager told you directly that you did a good job.

            Far out, stand up for yourself.

            • Lanushi on 10/05/2021 - 21:24

              @brendanm: If I've done a good job, then why bother charing for a professional clean? Hence this whole post.

              This is my first time renting, and no one warned me about the bs that comes with scummy property managers. He didn't speak to me directly either.

              • brendanm on 10/05/2021 - 21:32
                +3

                @Lanushi: "Good job" is not the same as a professional clean. You are not required to do a professional clean. You are not required to prepare the property for sale. Whether they are selling it, renting it out again, or blowing the place up, it doesn't matter. You do a clean to a reasonable standard. That's it.

                This is my first time renting, and no one warned me about the bs that comes with scummy property managers.

                You've now been warned. Call them properly manager tomorrow, tell him you won't be paying. If he disagrees, tell him you will see him at tribunal. He will then change his mind.

              • lainey13 on 10/05/2021 - 23:23
                +1

                @Lanushi: Haahah the last place I rented, the agent sent me some "recommended" cleaners who wanted to charge me $700 to clean a 3br 2bth townhouse!!
                I found some myself that did a bond return guarantee for under $200 inc carpet cleaning. You can guess the amount of kickback for the agent!

                • Love a bargain on 11/05/2021 - 13:14
                  +1

                  @lainey13: My ex-landlord suggested we split the cleaning fee charged by the cleaner suggested by their selling agent and my half would be more than what I would pay for the cleaner (which also guarantee bond return) I had lined up. Needless to say, I told them to get lost.

                  RE agents really are scum.

      • dmbminaret on 10/05/2021 - 16:31

        Having it not taken out of the bond prevents us from having issues applying for rental properties in the future

        If you allow payment out of your bond, you are not penalised for it. It's no different to having a line of credit. You just don't get as much back.

        It's only if they forcibly take it from your bond you may have dramas.

        • Ferretface26 on 11/05/2021 - 08:24
          +1

          Most rental applications have asked me whether I’d ever had any of my bond withheld. I’ve negotiated in the past to pay separately and not have money taken out of my bond.

          In this case however, OP needs to tell them to get stuffed!

  • DrPotato on 10/05/2021 - 14:23
    +7

    You aren't expected to keep it to a 'sales standard'. In Victoria, it should be 'reasonably clean'. This is very dodgy.

    If I were you, I would threaten them with VCAT which would almost certainly side with you, if the landlord had unreasonably high expectations from your vacate clean. Doing so has worked for me in the past when they realise their arguments won't really hold up.

  • coffeeinmyveins on 10/05/2021 - 14:29
    +16

    Thankfully we were able to negotiate this from being removed from our bond.

    Lol. Real estate agents can't just "keep money from your bond". They don't have it. If they want to use money from it for something, they have to apply for it (at least in NSW).

    (profanity) me real estate agents are the scummiest pricks on earth. When I moved out, they wanted to repaint the entire place because of markings on the wall (which were due to poor quality paint used in the initial build). The walls couldn't be touched without leaving a mark, and you couldn't clean them without literally stripping the paint.

    They sent me a quote for the paint job and I said "no" and never heard from them again.

    99% of what they say is a bluff. They are there to get money for the owner, not you. so they work against you even when it's illegal.

    • orangetrain on 10/05/2021 - 14:37
      +5

      They get money for themselves. Bet some landlords are unaware of extra charges from gullible tenants.

  • Lanushi on 10/05/2021 - 14:29

    It is also worth mentioning that we have the same property manager for our current rental. My concern is that should I contest this, it may lead to issues with the current place down the track.

    • Muzeeb on 10/05/2021 - 14:32
      +6

      No. Has nothing to do with it. Just ask for your money back.

    • orangetrain on 10/05/2021 - 14:34
      +5

      You are looking like a pushover. Expect the REA to send you all invoices for the property in future. Lol

    • Cheaplikethebird on 10/05/2021 - 14:39
      +3

      They've already scammed you so you've got nothing to lose. Pushing back will at least hopefully deter them from trying something swifty in the future.

    • SF3 on 10/05/2021 - 15:36
      +5

      we have the same property manager for our current rental

      Run

  • pharkurnell on 10/05/2021 - 14:40

    I cant see any difference in having to clean it for another renter or a new owner… ???

    • Presence on 10/05/2021 - 15:10
      +4

      There is no need for it to be "sales standard", just "reasonably clean".

      And to make it even worse when you sell a property is normally "as is" and the seller has no obligation to clean it.

    • terrys on 11/05/2021 - 08:54

      Of course you can't Dear, you couldn't even see this:

      "cleaned the property to their list of requirements including a professional steam clean."

  • Mechz on 10/05/2021 - 15:55
    +3

    Total scam, call them and make sure they do not take your money.

    • orangetrain on 10/05/2021 - 16:03
      +6

      Do it via written communications. They'll lie and say their request for refund will be processed eventually.

      • dmbminaret on 10/05/2021 - 16:32
        +5

        Do it via written communications.

        I absolutely do anything like this via email. Keep the bastards honest.

    • andrek on 11/05/2021 - 04:03
      +1

      I'd say don't even talk to them over the phone. Move all communication to email or paper.

      When I was renting, the agent tried to pull a similar trick at the end of my tenancy over the phone. I told them to send me a letter. Never heard from them again, got my full bond back.

  • brendanm on 10/05/2021 - 16:08
    +3

    You do not have to pay this! You do not have to clean a place to a "sale standard". That is their problem.

    I really hate property managers.

  • dmbminaret on 10/05/2021 - 16:36
    +2

    but not done to "sales standard."

    AFAIK there is no sale standard. There is rental cleaning standard which should be according to your entry report.

    We bought a house in october and the place was grubby as hell but we got it cheap. We put a condition in that the sellers had to get a bond clean and show receipt to the conveyancing solicitor so we didn't do in to a brothel full of dead rodents. If we didn't put that in, there is nothing you can do…no "sale standard".

  • spackbace on 10/05/2021 - 16:56
    +2

    Guarantee that the new place, under the same property manager, wasn't up to "sale standard" when you moved in…

  • mshanann on 10/05/2021 - 18:08
    +4

    Name and Shame

  • [Deactivated] on 10/05/2021 - 19:32
    +5

    It's a lesson you learn the first time it happens to you. Always spend an hour or two when moving into a rental TAKING PHOTOS of every wall, floor, and ceiling. When an unscrupulous agent then hits you with a bill of missing items or damage you have some evidence for protection.

    And yes, I was once charged a large amount for things that weren't there when I moved in. The agents spend all of 10 minutes introducing you to the place but they'll spend hours when you move out finding every scratch and scrape they can.

    It also helps to make a bit of a show to the agent when moving in that you're taking note of every bit of damage.. as a result they may not bother with the tricky stuff because they know you'll argue every point.

    This advice also goes for rental cars.

    • Third_Gear on 10/05/2021 - 20:06
      +5

      Best advice. We did this when we rented years ago and made note of a cracked tile and a few other things. Took photos and emailed to the agent. They never replied. When it came time to move out 4 years later they tried to say we were liable for a new tile floor and all this other crap. I simply forwarded the original email with the photos and never heard from them again.

      Takes ten minutes to do photos but can save you a lot of hassle down the road.

    • Lanushi on 10/05/2021 - 20:33
      +2

      Thank you for the genuine advice. I had taken plenty of photos upon moving into that property, and I'll be sure to send them to him upon writing up my email. Right after accessing my bond from the RTBA.

      • jsb on 10/05/2021 - 21:02
        +3

        But, did you take the photos after the cleaning was done at the time of moving out? I think that is more important here as the dispute is regarding the quality of cleaning.

  • Ridiculous Panda on 10/05/2021 - 22:04
    +5

    I would’ve just replied with one line:
    “Well, I’m not selling it, am I?”

  • HeWhoKnows on 11/05/2021 - 09:50
    +4

    You are only required to return the property in the same condition as it was when you entered the agreement.

    Refer to your incoming condition report.
    That's the requirement

    That's all

  • backpaqer on 11/05/2021 - 11:05
    +2

    I was in the exact same situation, though they didn't try hit me for extra cleaning as I had taken photos of EVERYTHING the day I moved in and could prove that the property was returned in even better condition than when I'd moved in. I would ask them to point to where in the lease contract where it says "sales standard". Spoiler alert: it doesn't.

  • WT on 11/05/2021 - 19:34
    +1

    send them a link to this thread

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