Should I Spend $2k on a Good Breville or an ECM Classika?

Hi all. We're getting married (hopefully) this December and are looking forward to what we should spend some of the gift money on. We've always wanted a cafe quality coffee machine at home and currently get by with an Aeropress and stovetop caffetera.

Our coffee habits are mainly espresso with the occasional soy latte - she loves those. It's just the two of us in the home and with the little need of warm milk drinks, I'm thinking a dual boiler is only surplus to our needs. Having read reviews and teardowns of the OzB cult classic Breville range, they seem to have longevity issues with plastic internals failing. This is why I've looked into something with an E61 groupset and metal internals. The PID also sweetens the deal. Here's a listing.

https://www.jetblackespresso.com.au/shop/p/Ecm-Manufacture-C...

I'd love to hear your thoughts on a comparison between this and say a BES980. I don't have a grinder and purchase my coffee pre-ground (I know, we're working on it). We eventually want to get a grinder, but a good coffee machine is what we want to start with.

The Breville does kill two birds with one stone but do its extractions even hold a candle to the ECM Classika?

Thanks!!

Comments

  • -1 vote

    Breville

  • +9 votes

    ECM Classika every day of the week. Consistency, longevity and serviceability are the key differences. Consistency means every time you pack your puck with the same amount of coffee, and tamp it the same, you get the same shot. Longevity is self explanatory, as is serviceability. The ECM crushes the Breville on all 3.

    My housemate has had the Breville, and I have an ECM Classika. He has had nothing but issues - plastic parts breaking (as you mention), power cut outs, inconsistent shot pulling, inconsistent temperature - the list goes on. These are anecdotal of course, but the reviews speak for themselves.

    The ECM Classika is exceptionally reliable. You get consistent heat and consistent pressure, allowing every shot you pull to be a decent one. I make milky coffees, and it's really not a big deal (2-3 mins) to heat up the boiler to steam. If you're only occasionally making milky drinks, it makes even more sense.

    The E61 is an very well known espresso machine standard, which makes servicing cheap and easy to the end that you can definitely do it yourself. The Breville is a pain in the ass to service, and you definitely will need to take it to a service centre. My ECM Classika is going very strong in it's 12th year. My housemate's Breville died in year 3.

    Buy a separate grinder. Combined grinder + machine = more things to go wrong. The breville in-built grinders are cheap, and grind inconsistently. A separate grinder is not expensive, and will last you as long as your machine does.

    I hope this helps. Buying an espresso machine is definitely an example of quality > quantity.

    •  

      Thank you for the detailed response. 12 years and counting is a phenomenal lifespan. Makes me wonder why people buy the Breville. Probably because it's so readily available at all the big department stores.

      Can you recommend a good grinder while you're here?

      • +1 vote

        I imagine because it's accessible and well marketed, particularly as the "do it all, cafe quality coffee machine".

        On grinders, have a read of this first: https://www.talkcoffee.com.au/buying-guide-coffee-grinders/?...

        Few options:
        I) Eureka Manuale - $479 - https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/eureka-manuale-black-espresso...
        High quality, stepless, doserless grinder. Allows you to make tiny adjustments and put the coffee straight into your basket without it going stale if it sits there. Nice and compact, well priced.

        II) Rancilio Rocky Grinder - $450 - https://www.jetblackespresso.com.au/shop/p/rancilio-rocky/
        Again, HQ doserless grinder, but this one is a bit more stepped (doesn't make a massive difference, as long as they steps are not huge). Compact, well priced. The blue is a bit weird, but each to their own.

        If you want to go cheaper, apparently the Breville Smart Grinder is decent: https://www.jbhifi.com.au/products/breville-the-smart-grinde.... But I would personally get spend the extra $200 and get something you feel considerably more confident with.

        •  

          Had a read of it all. After the responses I'm avoiding all things Breville, grinder included. Might need to convince the future wife to get a grinder now in preparation for the ECM 🥴

        • +2 votes

          I went from the Smart Grinder Pro to the Eureka Mignon.

          I used a naked portafilter. Shots with the Smart Grinder Pro used to be terribly inconsistent and sprayed everywhere due to channelling. None of those issues with the Eureka Mignon.

          A better distribution technique with the Smart Grinder Pro (like the Weiss Distribution Technique) might have helped.. but I didn't know at the time.

          In other words, you can get away with a cheaper grinder if you have better technique.

          • +1 vote

            @lasertip: Very interesting take. I'll look these methods up. Thanks.

          •  

            @lasertip:

            In other words, you can get away with a cheaper grinder if you have better technique.

            Distribution technique cannot not change the coarseness and consistency of the grind.

        •  

          +1 for the Rocky! I've got it with my Rancilio Silvia and it rocks!

          Agreed the blue is a bit off putting but you get used to it.

      •  

        Go for the Eureka Mignon Specialita. You can import from Italy for under $550 and it will likely arrive faster than local stock. Otherwise looking around $800 to buy locally.

        •  

          Whats after sales service like if you import yourself?

        •  

          Where can you buy direct from Italy?

        •  

          @nubzy I followed your advice and got the Eureka Mignon Specialita from Italy and am very happy with it so far. What are your thoughts on getting a rocket Appartamento from that same place as well? It looks much cheaper than locally sourced.

          •  

            @bbqandbargains: I am looking also for machine later on when I update my Barista express. The Rocket Appartamento is HX (no count down timer) and the ECM Classika is single boiler! So direct import seems to be €1,163 + €120 delivery + GST, so considering exchange rate & bank commission around $2400, right? guess no warranty & EU plug. I also looked at Lelit Elizabeth (double boiler) and seems to have very good features, drawback does not look as great and steam knob small plastic on the side. Lelit Mara X is HX with 1.8lr SS boiler is viable option too. But I think I prefer double boiler machine. Let us know how you go.

            •  

              @huntabargain: Yeah that maths is pretty much right, cheaper with a fee free credit card. A profitec 500 is similarly priced.

              Regarding warranty, you'd be looking at sending it back to Italy at your cost and they'd cover the return shipping and that's for the first 12 months. You could probably get it serviced locally but at your own cost.

              Regarding EU plug, you get an AU adapter that screws in with one-way screws that basically locks the plug in so I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's actually pretty well done - the plug is just a little bulky.

              I guess I'm looking for advice regarding if a coffee is more of a risk relative to a grinder like I just bought.

              •  

                @bbqandbargains: cheaper with a fee free credit card
                Is that ING credit card or different? I might open one as my current credit card charge 3% and exchange rate is bad.

            •  

              @huntabargain: has anyone imported a coffee machine from overseas?

              •  

                @derdew: I've thought about it but decided to buy local to many variables and risk for me
                USA will be 120v so out, Italy stuff is fine but by the time you factor currency conversion, 10%gst, 5%Duty, Processing fee plus shipping 20kg Not really enough savings for the risk

                •  

                  @Geoff897: May be naive here but I don't think your math quite adds up.
                  Duty and tax didn't apply to my grinder purchase from Italy. Here's the breakdown:
                  Subtotal €376.34
                  Discount €37.63
                  Shipping and handling €51.43
                  Tax €0.00
                  Total €390.14 ~ $624

                  Apply that same logic to a Rocket Appartamento and you've got:
                  Subtotal €1,145.00
                  Shipping €160.00
                  Total €1,305.0 ~ $2,112

                  Compare that locally and you've got:
                  $2,849 with free delivery

                  A $737 saving at the cost of local warranty. For a well built unit that boasts longevity, it's an attractive proposition.

      •  

        People are sheep

    • +2 votes

      FWIW, for the OP, my Breville is in year six and isn't missing a beat. Clean it regularly, service it every couple of years (yearly is overkill) and treat it well.

      •  

        Hi mate, how does your coffee compare with one from a coffee shop in your opinion?

        • +2 votes

          Better than some bad/average cafes but maybe 80 percent of a very good coffee. I always use fresh beans. Breville not a bad choice for less coin. Getting a quality grinder is about half of the puzzle. If your budget is set, please set aside 600-700 for a decent one!

      •  

        2.5 years on my bambino plus with smart grinder pro. Still running smoothly. Perform cleaning every 3 months or so.

        With fresh bean, i roasted them myself, 85% cafe quality with 20% of the cost.

        3 seconds from powering up to ready to brew.

        OP needs to check ECM power up time to ready to brew. Some takes up to 30 minutes. Take that into consideration.

        Also, Be ready to be disappointed and get ready to waste a fair amount of bean to get the first good coffee.

      • +1 vote

        I also have a the Breville Dual Boiler and can highly recommend it. If you look after it well it will last a very long time, plus spare parts are easy to find if something does go wrong. I've had mine approx 6 years and it still makes great coffee. Easily comparable to cafe quality.

        I'm not sure which Breville model is being referred to above, but the Dual Boiler has very few plastic parts. It's a very solid machine and quite easy to service yourself.

        If you can buy one on special for $800 it's an unbeatable deal.

    • +1 vote

      Thanks for that, have you had to do much servicing/parts replacement on your ECM machine in that time? I have a small Lelit machine and have had to repalce a few parts over the last 5 years or so. Just wondering about our next machine.

      Thanks

      • +1 vote

        I've done the seals every 12-18 months. This is about ~<$50 worth of parts and can easily be done yourself. There is a plethora of guides and manuals out there for servicing an E61 group head. I've also replaced the thermostats on the boiler (~ $20 each), which was also done by hand.

        I've had it professionally serviced about every 3 years ($200-300), where each time there were tiny parts replaced. I used filtered water, so I have never needed to de-scale.

        Major things where you can't problem solve = professional
        Seals, small parts or descaling = yourself. Just be gentle with your tools, as polished stainless steel will scratch very easily.

        For reference, I make about 4-6 milky coffees a day, or ~ 30-40 per week.

  • +2 votes

    If you do decide to get the Dual Boiler / Oracle then check out https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/breville-dual... .

  • +8 votes

    Get yourself a grinder first.
    You can't make good coffee with stale beans no matter how expensive the machine you're using.
    The machine quality will add the last 10% of quality.
    Fresh beans, good grinder and correct technique will make up the first 90%.

    •  

      Good point. It'll have to be a simultaneous purchase!

    • -2 votes

      I'd say you can make as good a coffee as majority of coffee shops with supermarket beans.

      •  

        majority of coffee shops

        = Gloria Jeans and Starbucks

        Yeah, agreed.

        It's not that hard to find a non-chain coffee shop that makes excellent coffee though.

        • -1 vote

          True. I'd say 95% of people can't tell an excellent coffee from average. So 95% of people will be happy with supermarket beans.

          •  

            @iamherenow: How are these beans in terms of freshness though? Surely they're not within three weeks of roasting.

            •  

              @bbqandbargains: Within 3weeks of roasting as a rule doesn't cut it. Probably first 5 days they are settling, and result will be grassy mess that no one will enjoy. More likely you have about a week or so where they are at their best.

              Old beans can get the basic coffee taste right, but won't have any interesting notes in there. That's what supermarket coffee can hope for. And that's not bad at all, just not exceptional.

              Don't think all beans from roasters are quality. Even if they are fresh. Crap beans = crap result, no better than a supermarket. Roasters make their money buying cheap beans and selling them to people who have no idea.

              •  

                @iamherenow: Wow! Have you got a resource you can link me to help me understand what a good bean is? We buy from a Melbourne based roaster for a lot more than what a supermarket charges. They're called Vertue.

                •  

                  @bbqandbargains: Don't have reading. Base it on taste. Like wine - try out the options and close in on the style you like. All part of the fun!

              •  

                @iamherenow:

                Roasters make their money buying cheap beans

                What determines cheap beans? Is it sourcing beans from one country instead of another, or are there markedly different prices for beans from different growers within the same country? Or something else?

                I don't know why, but I never really thought there would be a huge variation in bean prices, mainly because all the independent roasters seem to sell coffee at similar prices, but you're right, it would be subject to the same market forces as any other commodity.

                •  

                  @kiitos: Yeah good beans become popular and price goes up. Beans within a country can vary a lot.

    •  

      I’ve been enjoying beans from Queensland growers recently. There’s a few who sell direct from the Atherton Tablelands regions. Also Zendveldts in Byron Bay have Aussie beans that are great.

  • +1 vote

    Breville won't last. E61 like you link will last (although I am not familiar with the particular model you link). Problems you will encounter with the link you include are generally around the domestic style pressurestat and the pump. Sometimes water tank plastic degrading. All are are cheap and easy to replace. Some of these can be a bit flimsy in their build, so you get a bit of flex when you put in the group handle. But that's not big issue.

    •  

      The one I linked seems to be the cheapest with E61 and PID at the cost of a single boiler. Seems like a single boiler Rocket Appartamento

      •  

        Ah yeah PID, Missed that. 2.8l boiler is getting ok size too. 2l sucks for steaming. 5l and you are like a commercial machine.

        Don't see single boiler as bad.

        •  

          I always thought of dual boiler as giving you more versatility to perform two tasks at once. Does it have its own inherent disadvantages?

          • +1 vote

            @bbqandbargains: Hx can do both at once. A well setup hx performs just as well as a dual boiler. A dual boiler just gives both control over individual boiler temps. It's for the snobs…

            •  

              @iamherenow: This (Classica) is not an HX machine. It's a single boiler.

              You have to switch to steam mode and wait.

          • +2 votes

            @bbqandbargains: if you're only doing the occasional soy latte, single boiler should be fine.
            It becomes more of an issue if you start preparing multiple coffees at once, or switching between milk to shots if you don't have a PID.

  • +5 votes

    I'd get the BDB over a single boiler. You'll also need a grinder and the Breville combo is a really solid starting point.

    I don't have a grinder and purchase my coffee pre-ground (I know, we're working on it). We eventually want to get a grinder, but a good coffee machine is what we want to start with.

    Sorry but we just can't be friends. Your thinking is absolutely bonkers. Maybe you should just get a pod machine.

    • +2 votes

      Can you tell me which is better: the ALDI or the Woolworths Pez dispenser? I think both would pair perfectly with my Gloria Jean's mug and socks with toe slots but not sure.

      •  

        haha!

        get a heat exchanger.. surely the ECMs selling point is that it is compact.. so I think go for a heat exchanger and you'll get the E61 too. PID not as necessary in an HX apparently.

        anyway… you have to understand I have yet to actually drop $2.5k on a machine.. but I do have upgrade-itis from a BDB and there is no way I'd consider the single boiler an upgrade.

        •  

          What is it about the BDB that makes you want to upgrade?

          •  

            @kiitos: In the ECM machines the single boiler heats to say 130deg so it can steam, their is a copper tube running through the boiler which heats the water for the espresso to 92deg. But this temp can fluctuate and cause inconsistent shots.

            BDB set the boiler at desired temps for consistency

          •  

            @kiitos: Nothing really. I did have a complete machine failure but instead of getting it repaired I bought a refurbished unit.

            So maybe I'd upgrade if it were to a more reliable unit (but I do worry that's wishful thinking).

            But let's say the BDB is a queen bed. I'm definitely not upgrading to a King Single.

    •  

      Nothing at all wrong with a single boiler. You do know most machines in coffee shops are single boiler?

      •  

        Well maybe there is, if it's not a hx as I assumed…

  •  

    Bought the BES980 a couple of weeks ago. Very happy, makes great coffee out the box, makes really good coffee with some tweaking. Would recommend.

  • +2 votes

    100% the ECM. E61 machines are a pleasure to use and look at, and will last much longer than any Breville with regular servicing. I have the Profitec 500 and it's one of the best things I've ever bought.

  •  

    I'm looking at similar options for when I move out as well hopefully at the tail end of this year. I have a mate who swears by the Rocket Appartamento which is what I was thinking of buying.

    Hadn't heard of ECM but I am now interested.

    •  

      If you like the Appartamento also look at Profitec 500 it has a few additional benefits around the same price

  • +1 vote

    Watch a few hours of James Hoffman, the Breville/Sage often are not the best value for money.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMb0O2CdPBNi-QqPk5T3gsQ

    Just keep in mind, Breville is highly rated in UK/Europe because its cheaper there, all the machines are a extra $200-300 in Australia.

    •  

      Can you provide some links comparing prices - I've never seen that before @nephilim. In fact, prices in UK are usually considerably higher than in Australia.

      Amazon Australia has the Dual Boiler for $1,570 (with the grinder), UK has it for 1,040 pounds (> $1,900 AUD) without the grinder. And Australia regularly goes down to $1,000 AUD for the DB without the grinder).
      Amazon Australia has the Barista Express for $680, UK has it for 650 pounds (> $1,200 AUD).
      Amazon Australia has the Oracle for $2,400, UK has it for 1500 pounds (> $2,800 AUD).

      And that is the case pretty much for all models. Where are you seeing the higher prices in Australia?

    • +1 vote

      Hoffman rated the BDB very highly at a price of £1000 pounds (pre covid price) … We can get it for $1000au and that's covid prices (was $850au two months ago)

      • +1 vote

        $850 today - https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/640717 :)

        I strongly suspect @nephilim is comparing prices without doing currency conversion. That is the only explanation I have for their view that UK pricing is less (when it so clearly isn't).

        •  

          Been waiting for this price, just bought one ! Will pair with the niche when they bring out the AU plug

  • +1 vote

    Bought the dual boiler for my wife 2 years ago when it was still reasonably priced - under $800 which included the smart grinder. My wife loves it, she used to be a barista and loves making coffee. I don't drink coffee but she makes me matcha latte, chai latte, hot chocolate and baby cinno for kids. Overall it was a great purchase.

  • +3 votes

    We considered noise with a small family and day time naps and went the ECM Synchronika, Eureka Atom grinder and TPlink smart plug with monitoring.

    The ECU brand is amazing quality, The quality of stainless is so nice to clean brings a smile every time, We compared 2 models Synchronika/Mechanika and found the steam ran out with 2 milk coffee's on the Mechanika, so went the Synchronika, With a small family we can do the extra milk for the kids.

    Also wanted the PID as it nice to know shot times and temps automatically, I know not necessary but its dam nice to have

    The Atom grinder is great and can make coffee when kids are sleeping without the worry of waking them. It also has timed dosing which is nice and very consistent when dialled in, (It doesnt like Single dose grinding as it pops the beans)

    It was expensive start but with some ozb planning we got very lucky and stacked the world in true ozb style
    Ebay make an offer + 11% Ebay Site wide + $2500 woolies 15% GC off + CR/shopback. ended up about 2.5k + grinder. (Plus I think we stacked few hundred $ in Virgin and flybuys points)

    • +1 vote

      Agree - Rotary pump on the Synchronika is much much quieter vs. vibratory on lower end models, but certainly at an additional premium.

    •  

      Mad deal you scored there! Do you use the smart plug to automate turning on the machine to warm up?

      • +1 vote

        Yeah amazing deal, Yes use the smart plug to turn on in the morning, Also a few off timers in case left on. ie 2pm and 11pm.

        I haven't found myself waiting for the machine for too long to warm up if I woke up before the morning start time tbh.

        •  

          Sweet. I was going to do the same with my home assistant and hook it up with my morning script routine.

  •  

    I had 3 x Breville dual boilers over the years and have had a far better experience once switching over to a Profitec Pro 700 V2, fortunately in November 2019 before the pandemic began. Profitec is a sister company to ECM, you could look at a Profitec Pro 300 if you can stretch your budget. It’s a dual boiler machine and saves by having a vibration heat pump over a rotary heat pump along with the overall smaller footprint. In saying that, the Breville Dual Boiler is a good option at a good price point and I will say that you should upgrade from the Breville Smart Grinder if you do go for it. When upgrading to the Profitec, I bought a Eureka Atom grinder a few weeks before the Profitec machine and still had the Breville Dual Boiler. With the Eureka grinder the coffee the Breville machine produced was a step up over using the Breville Smart Grinder, I sort of said why have I gone and bought this expensive coffee machine! I didn’t regret it after, however, I know a better grinder gets a way better result with the Breville Dual Boiler.

  • -2 votes

    I do not understand people buy these manual machines when automatic machines are SOOOOOO convenient and mess free! Press the button and awesome coffee is dispensed without needing to be more than half awake. No spilled coffee, no grind to worry about, tamping,…

    I have personally gone through a decade of trialling different coffee methods, probably preferring the stovetop percolator best. I kept on forgetting to put coffee or water in, or leaving it on the stove too long, melting the rubber seals etc. Dripulators I spilled coffee and sometimes made it too weak or too strong. Regular coffee espresso coffee machine I was too shaky in the mornings and make a huge mess, or I would stamp it too hard or too light, or ran out of ground coffee and had to grind. Eventually, I started on the automatic coffee machines. I don't use the milk steam functions as I will still make a mess, just add a dash of milk and microwave for 30secs or use the milk frother/heater, which saves me farkeling with the steamer, though most people would use the fancy milk frothers on the machine! Some auto machines would flash lights at me in the morning alerting me to wash, decalcify, clean,… and I would plead with it to give me just one cup before I would attend to it but it wouldn't. Then others have leaked and caused problems right from the day I bought it new, till I discovered the Jura machines…. a seriously awesome machine. Makes about 6 cups a day on average for us, years on end. Because I live in a rural area I cannot get them serviced easily, meaning I sell the machine when it needs attention and buy another second-hand machine online. People always want these machines, and people service them at home, but I am terrible at these things and rather leave it to someone confident and sell the machine cheap. I never buy new…. but for your wedding…. go on, treat yourself to a Jura fully automatic machine.

    PS These machines have different buttons and customisations to ensure you and partner both always get your ideal cuppa!

    • +2 votes

      I've used plenty of automatic machines at different offices and the taste doesn't even come close to what I can achieve with my Breville Dual Boiler at home.

      •  

        ^This
        The difference is night and day.

        An Automatic machine makes marginally better coffee than a Pod Machine.

  •  

    ECM no doubt. We've got one at work and it's probably getting used 100s of times a day and that thing will cop it sweet.

    Those things do need regular servicing though.

  •  

    Coffee odyssey update: we just used the tax return on a Eureka Mignon Specialita from espressocoffeeshop.com. The flavour is worlds better than our pre ground, even for a cheapo Grinders bag of beans.

    Next stop is the ECM. I also see the Rocket Appartamento is heaps cheaper from espressocoffeeshop. Anyone have any thoughts on direct importing a coffee machine? I chose to go the grinder because it's a simple and reliable machine that I had confidence in without local warranty.

    •  

      would like to know this as well

  •  

    Either stick with single boiler or go DB. I personally don't see the point of HX apart from what is in the overall scheme of things immaterial savings over DB. If you can stretch your budget for prosumer coffee machine do it right once rather than getting something that comes with compromises.

    I would advise against getting Breville too. Breville is an appliance and won't last the test of time.

    •  

      Thanks for that. Where did you get your unit from?

      •  

        I went with single boiler machine (Lelit Victoria) myself as I rarely drink milk based drinks. I got a lightly used one from coffee machine specialist in Brisbane and paid around 1k a couple of years ago. Paired it with Lelit William grinder which I also picked up used from coffeesnobs for 400 bucks or so. It has served me well with no issues.

  •  

    100% go the ecm. I had a breville dual boiler for about 3 years, was about 1 or 2 yrs old when I got. I had to service and replace parts each year, things broke super easy. Water tap and steam nozzle leaked, was noisy. The ecm will last forever. I just bought a synchronika and will never look back

    •  

      Awesome. Been also looking at Profitec 500 or Rocket Appartamento. The grinder has been an absolute treat so far.

      •  

        Great to hear! I was looking at the specialita. Did it take long to come? And how was the extra taxes? I'm eyeing off a eureka atom or malkhonig X54 as I already own a sette 270w and feel the specialita won't be a huge jump up

        •  

          I ordered it on a Sunday. It came on the following Friday, faster than Auspost is currently that's for sure. All up it was $624 for the chrome version. Still so so much cheaper than the local stockists. What's making you want to upgrade from your sette?

          •  

            @bbqandbargains: Wow super quick hey! And yeah I'd seen it's an impressive price. I was looking at getting ym sync overseas and was at least 1k cheaper than aus. I just didn't want to run the risk of the plug, warranty and maybe other things if they arose. And an upgrade from the sette. It's loud! It's obnoxiously loud haha. Ive had for about 2 years now and you have to pause any conversation in the kitchen when it's on, even if it's 10 seconds as it's super quick to grind. It's consistent, but I feel if I upgrade it'd need to be quieter, and also just as consistent, if not better. I have seen the Eureka atom, or malkhonig X54, and maybe a few other options, I need single dose/minimal retention

            •  

              @Discoaus: Yeah it was shipped via UPS and moved from Italy to Cologne to Melbourne.

              Plug is far from an issue. They supply an AU plug adaptor with one way screws that lock the EU plug in. Looks very neat albeit a bit bulky.

              Warranty is definitely a gamble. They will service it for a year at your outbound shipping cost. There's also plenty of local repairers you can surely pay to service it, they are apparently quite easy to DIY I hear. I will learn that when the time comes.

              Wow, sounds loud! The specialita is like a calming hum! I haven't done a single dose but can definitely see the benefit especially if I wanted a decaf.

  •  

    Have you spoken to technical sales to get their advice which type of machines suite your need? From what I understand HX without PID is guess work for good extraction and even with PID is not straightforward routine with the 61 grouphead. I thought if you making mainly espresso and occasional latte, then consistent temperature at brewhead would be critical in choosing a machine, which seem is not the strongest points of HX machines!. Also warm up time would need to be considered! I would also like to hear from other experienced users, but Italian design machines seem to be the way to go..

    •  

      Hi there, no I haven't. Just been researching and asking questions to the OzB community. Interesting take on PID, I had a feeling this would be the case but wasn't entirely sure of its importance. Warm up time I'm happy with working around as I'll probably be hooking it up to a wifi switch that'll automate turn on times.

      •  

        Huntabargain is right. Hx machines, even with pid you still won't get the perfect temp. A single boiler or dual boiler with pid will be more accurate. Obviously e61 group heads are known for not having spot on temp accuracy, but these days with the pid they are very accurate to within a few degrees. Hx will be a few degrees off. But you can alleviate this issue by installing a temp guage on the group head, this way you'll either be able to temp surf to where you need, or know more accurate temps when adjusting pid temp, as temps change from the boiler to the group head. Also would recommend the WiFi plug, I use on mine and either turn on when I wake up from my bedroom or set an alarm 20 mins before I get up

        •  

          Interesting. I guess the ECM Classika is the one for me then! Love the idea of having PID do the thinking for me.