Company Did Not Process Order after Arbitrarily Declaring Fraud, Did Not Notify Me

picklewizard on 12/10/2021 - 10:01

An unusual situation, this, but reading more on the company had me realise that this is not an isolated incident!

I recently placed an order on an Australian website, a well-known retailer. I have made many purchases from this company in the past.

I realised a couple of weeks later that following my order confirmation email, no further comms had been received, nor the product I ordered.

I reached out and was told the following:

  • My order has been flagged as potential fraud
  • My order had been cancelled and refunded
  • They do not notify in cases of suspected fraud, they just quietly cancel the order
  • I cannot place any further orders with them, as my account has been flagged and this will happen with all future orders
  • I need to send ID, utility bills etc, for them to consider lifting this ban

Of course, they can get stuffed and I'll just shop elsewhere, and reading other forums I'm not the first this has happened to. I just don't understand as I've placed thousands of dollars of orders with them in the past.

But this got me thinking - is this above board? I realise I am not out of pocket, but the inconvenience of intentionally NOT being told my order had been cancelled really annoyed me, and I'm wondering if there's grounds for complaint based on this practice. Have I not entered into a contract by placing and order, and then had that contract breached when they did not fulfil that order and not advise that they had no intention of fulfilling that order?

Or is this a case of "old man yells at cloud"?

Before you ask: there is no more to this story; based on others identical experiences they have an overly sensitive fraud detection system that seems to easily trigger false positives. The order was for $35.

TIA OZB!

Financial

Comments

  • oscargamer on 12/10/2021 - 10:11
    +3

    Yes it's annoying, but it's legal. Move on.

    • picklewizard on 12/10/2021 - 10:16
      -1

      Well that's just it - it doesn't feel necessarily legal. Is literally the only obligation here to refund my money?

      It doesn't pass the pub test.

      • oscargamer on 12/10/2021 - 10:20
        +1

        Legal? Yes.

        Pub test? Depends which pub I guess.

        • picklewizard on 12/10/2021 - 10:39

          What's this based on? I don't mean to be a dick, coming and asking for advice and then arguing, but it doesn't feel legal.

          • SF3 on 12/10/2021 - 10:52
            +3

            @picklewizard:

            feel legal

            laws don't care how we feel… it's binary.

            "I don't care about how you feel. Your feelings are irrelevant to me. If you want to talk about your feelings, go on Doctor Phil." - Judge Judy

            • picklewizard on 12/10/2021 - 10:56

              @SF3: I get that, but I suspect that the counter argument may also be based on feel rather than 'this is the actual law'.

              • Company allows me to place order
              • Company takes money
              • Company writes to me to notify of order being received
              • Company refunds money
              • Company intentionally ceases all further communication

              Yes, it's a "feeling" - but with the above in mind, none of the above was a breakdown, accident, whatever - they deliberately chose to not fulfil my order and not tell me.

              • SF3 on 12/10/2021 - 11:02

                @picklewizard:

                "old man yells at cloud"?

                Maybe you are a man, buying woman cosmetics? /s

                If you feel invested in this, is there a customer support # you can call, maybe speak to a higher up? Maybe they can tell you something or not 🤷

                • picklewizard on 12/10/2021 - 11:10

                  @SF3: I tried that. "You have reached the highest escalation point" was repeated several times to me.

            • Almost Banned on 12/10/2021 - 12:37
              -1

              @SF3: If laws were able to be applied in a simple binary way to all situations we wouldn't need lawyers, or half our judges.
              Things are complicated and a lot will turn on the facts of the matter.
              The real issue here is whether a contract was formed.

          • oscargamer on 12/10/2021 - 10:54
            +1

            @picklewizard: What's what based on?

            The company had some reason to suspect the transaction was fraudulent.

            The safest, quickest and fairest solution is to cancel the sale and refund you.

            It would have been nice if they had told you, but they didn't and it's not a requirement to do so.

            They are not required to tell you why they think the transaction was fraudulent.

            You really need to move on with your life………….

            • picklewizard on 12/10/2021 - 10:57
              -1

              @oscargamer:

              It would have been nice if they had told you, but they didn't and it's not a requirement to do so.

              What are you basing this on?

              You really need to move on with your life………….

              This comment "feels" unnecessary.

              • oscargamer on 12/10/2021 - 11:02
                +2

                @picklewizard: I'm basing my view on the rationale that they believe the transaction is fraudulent and communicating with you (the person involved in this potentially fraudulent activity) might adversely affect the 'real' client or themselves.

                And the "move on" comment is exactly that. I felt it necessary to say that you are overthinking this and you need to move on from this incident and live your life without buying from this company again……

            • djkelly69 on 12/10/2021 - 12:41

              @oscargamer: I can't say I agree it is ok for one party to be able to (or claim to) unilaterally rescind a contract because they suspect fraud, without providing any evidence and more importantly without even notifying the other party to the contract.

              Even if this is permitted by their T&Cs, it seems like an unfair contract term which could be struck out if it went to court.

              Sure this is just a $35 item, but what is to stop a nefarious company doing it any time they decide they would be making a loss on the sale of an item?

              • MissEm on 12/10/2021 - 12:56
                +3

                @djkelly69: @djkelly69

                I am not a lawyer but …

                What is in the website is in effect "invitation to treat"

                You decided to offer money to buy the items.

                They didn't accept your offer to buy.

                There was a consideration by the seller when you submitted your order - or offer.

                Contract is when it meets invitation to treat, offer, consideration and acceptance.

                When you respond with the offer to invitation to treat I would deem that you accepted the T&Cs at some stage.

                • picklewizard on 13/10/2021 - 15:09

                  @MissEm:

                  They didn't accept your offer to buy.

                  The debiting of money from my account, and a confirmation of order received email would suggest otherwise, IMO!

                  • MissEm on 13/10/2021 - 18:58

                    @picklewizard: I believe Mecca T&C form part of "Invitation to treat" -

                    Offerer I believe on their Invitation to Treat can dictate their own terms for Offer acceptance based on it and reserve rights -

                    Acceptance of your prospective Offer in Mecca T&C is seemingly defined as:

                    confirming that the goods have been dispatched and handed over to the designated carrier

                    https://www.mecca.com.au/website-terms-and-conditions.html

                    —selective "fair use" snip from above—

                    ACCEPTANCE OF YOUR ORDER OR BOOKING
                    When you place an order or make a booking via the Sites, you make an offer to purchase the selected goods or services from us in accordance with these Terms. Unless you cancel your order or booking, your offer is accepted, and the contract for the supply of the goods or services completed, when:

                    in the case of goods, an email is sent from us (or our authorised agent) confirming that the goods have been dispatched and handed over to the designated carrier; or

                    in the case of services, we commence providing the services to you in accordance with the booking.

                    For the avoidance of doubt, your offer has not been accepted when:

                    you add 1 or more items to your cart; and / or

                    following the placement of your order or booking, you receive an email acknowledging details of your order or booking. This email is only intended to confirm that we have received notice of, but not accepted, your order or booking.

                    The contract for the supply of goods or services (as the context permits) is completed in Victoria, Australia. Please note that some services may only be available at selected MECCA stores.

                    We reserve the right to:

                    reject your offer at any time at our discretion, including in the event that we are unable to obtain authorisation for payment, the goods or services are unavailable or that you do not meet the eligibility criteria set out, or otherwise contemplated, in the Terms;

                    —snip—

      • dizzle on 12/10/2021 - 11:14

        Why would they notify if they think it's fraud?

        If it's actually fraud, and they notify the fraudulent person, all that's going to happen is they try another fraudulent method of payment.

        It's a different matter if they think there is something wrong and think the buyer can clarify things. But if they think it's fraud then they either notify the police (if serious enough) or stop all communication.

      • jacross on 13/10/2021 - 11:10

        Well probably what you 'feel is legal' and what is legal are two very different things. But if you are really interested in the legality there is a profession of people who's job is to help you with just these sorts of questions, and a series of regulators and interested parties who provide basic information for free to help with questions of this level of complexity.

        Or you could indeed ask someone at the pub. That's certainly an alternative approach to seeking out considered information.

        'Hey dropkick who knows nothing about the law and is four pints in, what do you think of this issue relating to contract law and consumer law?'

  • pharkurnell on 12/10/2021 - 10:11

    Its cloudy today…

    what company?

    • picklewizard on 12/10/2021 - 10:17
      +1

      Are we allowed to name and shame? I guess I'm only telling the truth.

      Mecca Cosmetica. The most annoying part was that it was a gift.

      • Jimothy Wongingtons on 12/10/2021 - 10:46
        +1

        Are we allowed to name and shame?

        Yes? If you keep it to the facts, and nothing but the facts. Online reviews/postings can be a bit of a minefield these days.

      • kerfuffle on 12/10/2021 - 11:12
        +2

        Mecca Cosmetica.

        Knew you were gonna say Mecca. Hasn't happened to me, but have seen it happen to others online.

        • picklewizard on 12/10/2021 - 11:14

          I just don't get why you'd blatantly say "F you" to customers like this!

          There was zero apology or offer to help make good.

      • Zachary on 14/10/2021 - 12:42
        -4

        Mecca Cosmetica

        What the hell is Mecca Cosmetica? A well-known retailer my ass I don't even know who they are…. I was thinking more of Harvey Norman, JB HiFi or The Good Guys, but this Mecca Cosmetica? Nope, never heard of them.

        • Ughhh on 17/10/2021 - 10:36
          +2

          I don't even know

          What do you know? - should be easier and shorter to list.

          • Zachary on 23/10/2021 - 01:48

            @Ughhh: He said "I recently placed an order on an Australian website, a well-known retailer." and i had to reply to that.

            • Ughhh on 23/10/2021 - 09:06

              @Zachary: It is a well known aussie company, they just sell stuff you wouldn't be interested in. You probably have never heard of the brands they sell too, even if they're sold all over the world and are very expensive.

              • Zachary on 25/10/2021 - 13:00
                -1

                @Ughhh: Uggh, thanks for that informative information.

  • Jimothy Wongingtons on 12/10/2021 - 10:12
    +1

    "old man yells at cloud"?

    That's a bloody outrage it is - have you considered taking it all the way to the Prime minister?
    (I assume you are also a simpsons fan).

    But seriously though - was it Harvey Norman? The online website is operated by a separate franchise - and I have had nothing but issues with that site.

    Also some sites use a third party security/fraud mob, like what Prezzee do. Once its been flagged CS cannot 'unflag' it as its a third party system which needs to jump through the hoops to get it unlocked. Sometimes something like checking out on your phone as opposed to your PC, or using a VPN can trigger the fraud system.

    Just shop elsewhere I guess. Surely being a well known retailer, whatever you want is available at a bunch of other places?

    • picklewizard on 12/10/2021 - 10:19

      Look, I don't really mind them looking out for me. However, the "we aren't going to tell you and just leave you sitting by the mailbox" was what shat me off.

      Furthermore, if you thought it was fraud, why did you:

      • Take my money in the first place, and
      • Not notify my bank, so they could notify me?

      None of it adds up. Company is Mecca Cosmetica.

      • Jimothy Wongingtons on 12/10/2021 - 10:38

        Mecca Cosmetica.

        Ok i did not expect that - i guess its hard, they do have a range of exclusive stuff.

      • dizzle on 12/10/2021 - 11:25

        Furthermore, if you thought it was fraud, why did you:
        Take my money in the first place,

        I assume like many CC transactions, it went into a pending state and during this time something was flagged. The transaction was cancelled and you got the money back in your account.

        Not notify my bank, so they could notify me?

        It's most likely an automated process by whatever online transaction system they use. It's less likely to be someone looking through transactions and saying I think that one's bad. On the end of the person printing orders (to pick the items) it probably just looked like a transaction that was cancelled. I doubt anyone looked any further into it until you called and asked them too.

  • brendanm on 12/10/2021 - 11:17
    -1

    Or is this a case of "old man yells at cloud"?

    The order was for $35.

    Yes.

    • picklewizard on 12/10/2021 - 11:18

      Thanks for your input!

      • brendanm on 12/10/2021 - 11:19
        +2

        Happy to help. You've already spent more than $35 with of effort thinking about it tbqh.

        • holdenmg on 12/10/2021 - 11:29

          Don't make the clouds angry. :+)

  • skinner on 12/10/2021 - 11:30
    +1

    It sounds like you're stuck on the "why did they take my money in the first place" "it's a contract" bit of this situation so try thinking of it a bit differently. The "invitation to treat" laws haven't really been updated with online shopping etc so look at it like this:

    • You've placed an order on the website = you have taken an item to the counter and put your money down as well. The money has come out of your account but it's likely it's just an authorisation at this stage and they haven't really got it yet either.
    • While it has been accepted by the system it may have raised a flag on the other end for manual approval = this looks a bit weird, manager needs to approve this purchase.
    • No contract has yet been formed, it seems this only really happens when they ship the item out or you pick it up. They can decline the purchase for a number of reasons at this stage, from genuine price error to you being rude etc. Bait and switch and others etc is illegal though.
    • If they've decided it is fraudulent they cancel it and that's it. I would expect an automatic cancellation email but any other communication is just a chance for you to get info to beat the system next time.
    • picklewizard on 12/10/2021 - 11:43

      it seems this only really happens when they ship the item out or you pick it up

      See this is where I get funny about it, I feel it's when they take my money and say "we've received your order".

      But this is some good insight, thank you!

  • apple2016 on 12/10/2021 - 11:56
    +1

    inconvenience of intentionally NOT being told my order had been cancelled really annoyed me

    It’s quite common for suspected fraudulent transaction. If they decide to inform, there is a chance they are informing the fraudster who can then address his shortcomings.

    • picklewizard on 12/10/2021 - 11:58
      +1

      I'd be inclined to agree if I hadn't placed thousands of dollars of orders with them to the same address previously.

      But at the same time, just "sorry, no" doesn't really address any shortcomings unless they specifically say "this is exactly how we made this determination"

      • Seraphin7 on 12/10/2021 - 13:18
        +2

        But at the same time, just "sorry, no" doesn't really address any shortcomings unless they specifically say "this is exactly how we made this determination"

        Never, ever, ever going to happen. By telling you/the fraudster "this is exactly how we made this determination" it provides information into the way in which they manage security and therefore an insight into a way the security parameters can be avoided by fraudsters in the future.

        • picklewizard on 13/10/2021 - 10:05

          That's the point I'm making.

          They just need to send an email saying "sorry, no". That doesn't somehow increase the chance of a legitimate fraudster being able to bypass the anti-fraud protection. The comment I was replying to suggested that a "sorry, no" email would "inform the fraudster who can then address his shortcomings."

  • MissEm on 12/10/2021 - 12:16
    +2

    Did you put different billing / ship to address?

    Previous orders with new order in a short timeframe?

    New account?

    Lots of Gift cards?

    Might be just that you hit the magical risk threshold in a given time that triggered extra checks.

    Fraud is typically merchant category basis e.g. electronics is worst and interchange fees as result are higher

    Card not present risk is challenging for the retailer to deal with - chargeback fees have sunk companies before

    https://kount.com/blog/top-4-payment-and-fraud-challenges-in…

    https://www.shopify.com/retail/what-is-a-chargeback

    Merchants can be either reactionary or preventative from the beginning -

    With some merchants they just charge random small amount when authorising a new card and ask for verification what the random amount was to verify the transaction is by the authorised user of the account.

    Asking blunt ID / documents is just laborous and dumb insecure process but that's on Mecca implementing lazy dumb verification process creating mindless friction and headaches for the consumer - no shocker there the market is full of bad implementations.

    Mecca typically runs small(ish) transactions (not thousands) so for them to pick the reactionary process based on risk% threshold - compared to initial hurdle for everyone authorising the card - would on one hand make sense if someone crossess the threshold compared to merchant who sells high value electronics / computer gear (thousands)

    As to the docs - You could always try to black out any unique identifiers / sensitive personal data etc. per privacy.

    It's a bit like how AMEX Financial Review gets triggered.

  • Seraphin7 on 12/10/2021 - 13:12
    +1

    But this got me thinking - is this above board?

    When you get down to it, any business can refuse service to any person where they have a valid reason to do so. In this case, they have identified potential fraud on your account that would then constitute a valid reason.

    It's a total PITA, but it is what it is.

  • runamuck on 12/10/2021 - 18:59
    -2

    Let me guess, its Big W???

  • Speckled Jim on 13/10/2021 - 08:49
    -2

    My guess? JB.
    They tried a similar thing on me. Bought a Kogan TV instead, but that's another story.

  • Waltervp on 13/10/2021 - 09:59

    Bizarre. I often fall through the cracks and I hate it. Nothing you can do about it. Chose to stress about it or chose to move on. No answers likely. It's a shitty manipulated world we live in, I just worry about my 'backyard' and try eliminate stress from everywhere else. Not easy, and not fair, but what do you do… watch this company go broke and glee or stress about them doing well? Nah, just move on to greener (other) pastures.

  • OzHunterNSW on 13/10/2021 - 10:05

    Those clouds build up into major storms. If no one curses the clouds, then they will simply do as they please. How many exotic holidays have been ruined bc of clouds? Clouds prevent NASA from launching (co2 polluting) rockets, and clouds affect washing days.

    Complain to the manager. Complaint to the Dep of Fair-Trading.

    • picklewizard on 13/10/2021 - 10:06

      I'm sure that Dan Andrews is somehow involved with this.

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