Should I Upgrade from My 2003 Camry to a More Modern, Safer Car?

whiterice on 20/11/2021 - 14:23
Last edited 20/11/2021 - 20:44 by 1 other user

Hi guys,

Also posted this on r/AusFinance in case anybody goes there haha.

Currently drive a 2003 Camry with around 230,000 kms which has had no major mechanical issues (usually try to stay on top of preventative maintenance), some electronics issues like central locking not working, driver side window sometimes not closing. In terms of getting from A to B, the car does perfectly fine, and I don't anticipate any major mechanical issues with the car in the near future. It does not cost much to maintain. I usually drive fairly often around Sydney (not for work or study) and go out onto regional/rural roads every few months or so. I'm actually quite attached to this car (I've had it for a long time) and it would be sad to let it go.

It is also an older model with no ABS, side or knee airbags, or ESC. I hear that newer cars are tested much more rigorously, e.g. the small overlap test that even the newer cars struggle with, roof strength/rollover protection, structural integrity etc. It is for this reason I'm looking at a safer, more modern car.

I'm a uni student at graduate school working one day a week, and can pay for a car in cash (probably looking at a Subaru). Just wanted to ask if anyone in this sub has any opinions or thoughts on this matter.

Automotive Car Toyota

Comments

  • spackbace on 20/11/2021 - 14:28
    +2

    I'm a uni student at graduate school working one day a week, and can pay for a car in cash (probably looking at a Subaru). Just wanted to ask if anyone in this sub has any opinions or thoughts on this matter.

    To what sort of budget are you considering for the newer car?

    • whiterice on 20/11/2021 - 15:05
      +1

      Probably 15-20k, can stretch a little for the right car/price. Don't mind driving manual.

    • SF3 on 20/11/2021 - 20:39
      +5

      To what sort of budget are you considering for the newer car?

      The very 1st question asked by a sales person in a dealership :).

      • spackbace on 20/11/2021 - 21:24
        +5

        When they come in saying "I want a car", yeah it's gonna be one of the first 😉

  • AndyC1 on 20/11/2021 - 14:28
    +1

    First check out the prices and delivery times of new cars before you do anything. You can do this this afternoon by using google and then ringing up a few dealers and asking what the delivery time is for XYZ car…

    • whiterice on 20/11/2021 - 15:06

      Mmm I'm probably looking at second hand cars if anything. I've heard about the stock shortage on new cars though, sounds pretty bad.

      • Euphemistic on 20/11/2021 - 18:33
        +1

        Used car prices are up too because of extra cash around and new car shortage.

        • whiterice on 21/11/2021 - 08:23

          You're right, some of these used car prices are approaching new car prices…

  • drprox on 20/11/2021 - 14:33

    I'm guessing here but sounds like you didn't buy it that long ago which means you would've thought this through at the time. Why the change of heart? Personally I'd keep driving it.

    Edit - sorry you do say you've had it a long time. I unfairly assumed your age based on being a student. Ignore me but I still say keep driving it as doesn't sound like you drive all that much.

    • whiterice on 20/11/2021 - 15:08
      +4

      I've been driving the Camry for under a decade now. I guess life circumstances have brought me to the point where I value the safety of a car more than I used to - for myself, my partner, and any one else in my car.

      All good re the age thing, honestly I might have done the same haha.

  • Hugh G Rection on 20/11/2021 - 14:52

    if you can afford it, get a new car.

  • deme on 20/11/2021 - 15:05
    +1

    Depends: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Adams_(geographer)#Risk_compensation

    • whiterice on 20/11/2021 - 15:09

      Interesting perspective.

  • cruiserbruiser on 20/11/2021 - 15:19
    +1

    I would

  • Stopback on 20/11/2021 - 15:29
    +5

    If you just drive mostly in the city at low spends, nah.

    But keep and eye out for new cars, thing could die

    • subywagon on 20/11/2021 - 15:37
      +1

      I'd agree with this.

      • 2024 on 20/11/2021 - 16:14
        +1

        In SA the number of serious casualty crashes in 2019 on metro roads was almost twice that of regional.

        Even at 17km/h there is a 1 in 100 chance of serious injury with a head-on
        http://casr.adelaide.edu.au/publications/list/?id=1968

        Go the safest car you can afford :)

        • whiterice on 20/11/2021 - 17:47

          Interesting point about metro accidents! Would have thought regional driving was more dangerous with the higher speeds and undivided roads. Maybe people are just paying more attention on those roads.

          • GordonD on 20/11/2021 - 18:48
            +5

            @whiterice: Regional driving is more dangerous. In the 5 year period from 205-2019 57% of South Australian road fatalities, 41% of serious injuries and 17% of minor injuries occurred in rural areas. So rural crashes are more serious. More serious but non-fatal crashes occur in the city, but more fatal crashes occur in the country.

            https://dpti.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/247341/Ru…

            And 65% of the people killed or seriously injured in rural parts of the state were from that rural part of the state. The state government is currently running an advertising campaign telling people who live in rural areas that its not city people who have the crashes in the country, they take care driving in unfamiliar areas and conditions, its them themselves. Country people are 2-3 times more likely to die on the roads, and are much more likely to be drunk driving.

        • Stopback on 20/11/2021 - 18:21
          +1

          The analysis found significant positive relationships between the risk of serious injury and travel speed for all of these impact types.

    • whiterice on 20/11/2021 - 17:43

      I share the same thought re suburban driving … occasionally go out on on those undivided 100km/h roads though, but I guess risk profile wouldn't be the same compared to someone who does that everyday.

  • kingdoofus on 20/11/2021 - 16:24
    +6

    Here's a crash safety comparison of 1998 vs 2015 Corolla.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xidhx_f-ouU&ab_channel=CARTV

    • 2024 on 20/11/2021 - 17:12
      +1

      This! I think this says way more than any post here. Why would anyone want to eat that much older car dashboard if they could afford not to?!?

    • whiterice on 20/11/2021 - 17:48

      Yeah saw that. 1998 looks legit scary in comparison. Although I realise also that the newer Corollas have gotten a lot bigger and heavier .

      • Big Lenny on 23/11/2021 - 10:04

        if you crash in the 1998 one, youre finished

    • RoosterBooster on 20/11/2021 - 19:18
      +3

      I used to own a '98 Corolla… Until I saw this video! I know a lot of things nowadays are built to last nowhere near a long as years gone by. I sort of figured that was similar with cars. However, it wasn't until a few years back when I was hearing about and reading about car safety. I watched this video comparison which scared me into upgrading. I'd had no plans to upgrade but I pretty much went car shopping the next day. I loved my 98' Corolla. There was nothing wrong with it but I had no idea how far car safety has advanced. Being more educated in this field, safety then became my number one priority when buying. I would suggest you buy the newest car you can afford which will be much safer in terms of build and safety features than your current car.

  • EightImmortals on 20/11/2021 - 16:47
    +1

    Meh, we recently got rid of our 2003 car, but only because it was starting to cost too much money, had done around 265,000K. Would still have it if it wasn't for that.

    • Stopback on 20/11/2021 - 17:08

      What sort of repairs

      • EightImmortals on 21/11/2021 - 07:26
        +1

        Just a lot of stuff wearing out, in the last 2 years I did the radiator, Alternator, timing belt, rocker cover gaskets as well as the usual stuff, plugs, leads, rotor cap and a few other things I don't remember for now. And I still wasn't happy with how she was running.

    • whiterice on 20/11/2021 - 17:49

      What car was it?

  • Transient on 20/11/2021 - 17:55
    +1

    Something with ABS would be good. I used to drive a car without ABS and stopping distance while skidding is longer.

    • whiterice on 21/11/2021 - 08:40
      +1

      Yeah I upgraded my tyres back in 2019 to try and make up for this, but on the occasions I've needed to brake hard, I still do notice it locking up (in dry weather!)

  • mapax on 20/11/2021 - 18:32
    +1

    Wasn’t ABS mandatory on all passenger vehicles in 2003?

    • spackbace on 20/11/2021 - 18:41
      +1

      Looks like it kicked in during 2003
      Some of those cars aren't listed with ABS

    • whiterice on 21/11/2021 - 08:40

      The Camry production model after my one got ABS and side airbags it seems.

  • Euphemistic on 20/11/2021 - 18:39
    +1

    Except for the ABS I’d say that most of the other stuff is incremental safety improvements and possibly not worth upgrading especially for. The fact you’ve been driving it this long indicates you probably aren’t a terrible driver.

    Save your money for now and keep driving for a couple more years. The market is silly, prices are pretty high. You light even find that you can save some more coins and get a plug in hybrid if they ever start offering us a decent range of vehicles.

    • whiterice on 21/11/2021 - 08:49

      Clean driving record here hehe. ABS sounds like a great thing to have though, as I replied to another poster, I do get wheel lock on hard braking in dry weather. Maybe not having that shorter stopping distance might bite me back one day who knows.

      Personally I'll be sad when ICE vehicles start going away, although I get why this is the way it has to go.

      • Euphemistic on 21/11/2021 - 10:05
        +1

        Why sad for losing ICE? They are noisy, smelly, inefficient and have significant maintenance requirements.

        You’ll be able to start every day with a full tank of fuel, unless you currently only have on street parking. Over the next decade range anxiety will be less of an issue. There will be more fast charging available and we will be more used to having a pleasant 30min stop every 3-4hrs on a long drive.

        • whiterice on 21/11/2021 - 11:49

          I certainly would agree that electric vehicles are the way to go for commuter cars. The reasons I'll probably miss ICE are not pragmatic reasons - just the personality, the sound of the engine revving, gear shifts, and what not. The hybrid vehicles I've driven are very quiet, comfortable, and plenty powerful - but they have a very different character.

          • Euphemistic on 21/11/2021 - 13:44
            +1

            @whiterice: Ha ha. I’ll miss the roar of a V8 as I step on the gas, but I’m not going to miss that same roar that comes from down the road in the middle of the night.

  • Bid Sniper on 20/11/2021 - 19:44

    Yes

    Modern cars way more safer and reliable. Get something with less than 100,000km on it. You will notice the stability and traction, particularly since you're looking at Subaru. Also ergonomics, older cars have smaller mirrors, big blind spots, worse visibility, no ESC, small brakes, skinny tyres, crap suspension. All these seemingly minor details can be the difference between an accident and near miss, then structurally difference between hospital and walking away.

    Can possible get a used Subaru XV with a manual in that budget with about 60,000km on it. Night and day difference to an old Camry with ancient suspension, particularly in the wet.

    • whiterice on 21/11/2021 - 09:09

      Yep I test drove a manual XV with about 50,000 kms the other day at a decent price - unfortunately another buyer got to it while I was deciding whether or not to go through with it (thinking about the question I started the thread with!)

      While I definitely agree that modern cars are safer, interestingly I've found that (in my limited experience) visibility is better on older cars - the newer cars I've driven seem to have massive pillars and more 'door'/less window - I often need to look 'around' the A-pillar when I'm making a turn e.g. at a T intersection. And some of them seem to have almost non-functional rear windows - sometimes I think features like blind spot monitoring and rear cameras are a necessity to drive them. It's probably a structural integrity thing, I'd guess.

    • Euphemistic on 21/11/2021 - 10:10
      +1

      ergonomics, older cars have smaller mirrors, big blind spots, worse visibility, no ESC, small brakes, skinny tyres, crap suspension

      True, no ESC but I’ve not used it in our car that has it, except in testing being silly on the beach. All cars have blind spots, just the modern ones have a little light to tell you to look over your shoulder instead of doing it instinctively. The brakes are adequate in car built this century, haven’t found one lacking. Skinny tyres is relative, and actually less libel to aqua planing. Crap suspension is relative. Suspension tech hasn’t changed much for run of the mill cars for the last 20 years. Sure, high end stuff has active camping etc, but a corolla pretty much doesn’t. The only reason old cars seem like the have crap suspension is because most of them have lots of kms and it’s worn out compared to a new one. Out a new set of springs and shocks on and it’ll match a lot of new stuff.

  • Eshay on 20/11/2021 - 23:07
    +1

    went from a 2003 ateva to a 2014 rav4.

    the camry was using 15L/100km, the rav uses 7.
    the camry needed a lot of maintenance, and if any repairs had cropped up they would've probably costed 50% or more of the cars worth.
    the camry was bloody big, no parking sensors and what not so it was occasionally a bastard to manoeuvre
    I rate the rav4, and there are QoL and safety improvements across the board.
    that said the ateva was a way smoother drive (v6, better suspension feelz) and probably less likely to roll.

    I reckon it'd be more up to what driving environment you're in (speed/region/etc) if you're just thinking about safety.
    Without any major repairs happening, the camry might actually be more economical in the short term as the extra petrol cost would be lower than the upgrade cost. In the long term, rav4 saved me a lot on my fuel bill, it will be repairable for longer and it's got more gadgets and safety stuff.

    • whiterice on 21/11/2021 - 09:18
      +1

      Thanks for sharing your experience. Most of my driving is suburban driving, but do go on regional/rural undivided roads probably every 2-3 months.

      I've got the 4 banger Camry, still very comfortable to drive. I've had the same experiences regarding parking - big turning circle and no parking camera/sensors makes it pretty hard to fit into a lot of spots!

      • resisting the urge on 21/11/2021 - 10:30
        +3

        Lots of new cars are very complex and built to meet and work-around a regulatory smorgasbord of outdated initiatives, whilst being built down to a price. Meaning problems due to design oversight, inept engineering, complexity, manufacturing oversights, etc. These affect TCO, insurance, resale and reliability. Instead of just wear, owners risk severe difficulties paying shops to troubleshoot and resolve ongoing/intermittent problems. Your old Camry has none of these risks- as any it did have were resolved years ago.

        Then you have basic things, like more plastics used in the cooling system, engine internals, meaning that new cars simply cannot last as long as those made when yours was.

        So if you're current car is proven solid, you only achieve safety by getting a new one, and may risk reducing reliability!

        3 years ago bought a 2003 model car with 340000km on the clock. Maintained reasonably well, never crashed. On board computer showed it was using 9l/100 city cycle, ok for a 1400kg 2.5L auto with 225 tyres.

        I found it used 7.1l/100 on the highway.

        It then started reporting higher consumption during the second year of my ownership. 7.3l, then jumped to 10l. Found the intake leak (allowing air in so the computer was unable to keep it combusting properly). Changed a rubber boot, and some hoses (as they were all 17 years old), then consumption back to 7.4l.

        Decided that seemed wrong, so changed two oxygen sensors; $200. Back to 7L/100

        With simple cars like yours, its far easier to do these sorts of things, just measure your consumption religiously and fix things that will cause other things to fail- ie never accept poor economy, idle, start, jerky acceleration, gear changes or breaking- and change all fluids every 2 years. Some oils and filters should be annual if you do <5000km. What I'm saying is try to spend your money on maintenance, not up-front capital cost, as maintenance is a form of insurance against failure which on a new car you still get.

        If you deem comfort and safety as important, fix the broken locks and buy a roll cage and racing seat with harness for long trips. The impacts they test in tests are all front-end collisions, not the side impacts and rolls that are more likely to kill you, IRL. I really wouldn't recommend this, but it is far safer and more sensible a purchase than a new car in my eyes. (Chances of dying from an ineptly managed pandemic may well be less than dying in a road incident* and are all things you can influence at near no cost yourself, like improving behaviours around others, diet, and exercise)

        /* Depending on the widely varying stats available, and how overloaded our poor hospitals are at the time, despite decades available to prepare for the next catastrophe/pandemic :-(

        • whiterice on 21/11/2021 - 12:00

          Yes, the Camry hasn't been very much trouble and I've heard is pretty easy to work on.

          I chuckled when you mentioned the roll cage and the racing seats, but point taken!

        • Dogsrule on 21/11/2021 - 18:51
          +3

          They most certainly do test side impact crashes these days:

          https://youtu.be/rXlRHybU3XI

          Check out the difference between the modern Camry above, and OP’s Camry (built on the same platform as the 2000 model in the video):

          https://youtu.be/vBOoSj-a4_c

          Significant structural intrusion and collapse of the passenger cell, look at how badly the A pillar folds. They didn’t even bother testing side impacts back then because of how bad most cars were. There is no arguing that you are far more likely to die in a crash in a car like the OP’s.

          • Euphemistic on 22/11/2021 - 13:46
            +1

            @Dogsrule:

            They didn’t even bother testing side impacts back then because of how bad most cars were.

            It was probably the other way around. They didn’t build extra strength in there because the test wasn’t required. Safety inclusions tend to be based on legislation - especially at the lower end of the market. In the good old days no one was really interested in paying for safety features, it was all about comfort features. Oh a small fortune for a CD player and power windows, but not interested in paying less for ABS and airbags.

            • Dogsrule on 22/11/2021 - 16:03

              @Euphemistic: Perhaps that’s true, but my point is - you don’t want to cop any side impact in an old car like the OP’s, you will likely die. Modern cars have made great advances in this area which may well save your life.

              • resisting the urge on 08/12/2021 - 13:00

                @Dogsrule: May save your life. In some, limited circumstances, unlikely roll-overs. Safety ratings all prioritise front end collisions, so pretty much everything has more stars than consumers can comprehend.

                The reality is that side impact protection is minimal in most vehicles. It consists of bars, hooks in the door jams, and door/pillar airbags. Without a solid frame (think >2000kg Mercedes models), a tree or any 4WD will make short work of them, let alone a truck.

                OTOH, a roll cage and a harness can be effective, but not practical, and still, not great. To protect requires cabin rigidity and an entire crumple zone beside you. There is no space for this. Volvo tried with with SIPS, but it is limited. Anything that helps costs a lot in weight, width, and consumption and ultimately sales, all for a relatively minor protection improvement.

  • Waltervp on 21/11/2021 - 09:37
    +1

    I think if you want a comparable size car for about 10-20k I did my research to get most bang for buck in safety, with great economy I don't think you can go past the Ford Mondeo TITANIUM Diesel. I would try get a the MD model 2015+ but the model before MC is great too if you don't need navigation and reverse camera…. check them out. Awesome

  • fprjet on 21/11/2021 - 09:53
    +2

    Main issue for me is NO ABS this is a clincher in this day and age…. Definitely time to upgrade….Doesn't matter how good a driver ABS is important as is traction control.

  • OzHunterNSW on 21/11/2021 - 11:40

    Sounds as though this vehicle is absolutely brilliant.
    I am driving a 2002 ZTT MG. Mechanically A1, but interior, and paintwork looking like me.
    However, it is in ways, more advanced than current vehicles on the road today.
    If it is not broken, why fix it!
    I bet you are not driving too much these days… and look, here is some advice… don't pay Full Comprehensive Insurance. Your vehicle is only worth what some kid would give you. 1k if that. Insure 3rd Party. That way you are fully covered if you hit a Merc, and if you do, the insurer actually pays you 3k for your vehicle.

    • whiterice on 21/11/2021 - 12:03

      Yup never had comprehensive on this vehicle, just third party. The excess alone is probably worth a significant portion of the car's value…

  • brad1-8tsi on 21/11/2021 - 13:20
    +3

    Personally, if the car is reliable, everything works and does the job you need then I'd stick with it.

  • Easyteas85 on 22/11/2021 - 10:58
    +1

    Short answer…. Safety first. Upgrade to a suitable model

  • tonyjzx on 22/11/2021 - 19:01

    I keep saying this and I always ask… what is your risk factor? What do you stand to lose? Who relies on you? Who do you also give a ride to?

    If you're a young guy who is just starting out and wants A+B and have no commitments no dependents then drive that 20yr old Camry.

    I know lots of young contractors with 2001 Lancers and that sort of shit. They aint got no kids and thats all they can afford.

    If you are hauling kids then that's a different matter. If you're a sole breadwinner then maybe reassess.

    I would be suggesting an avg. driver with avg. skills move to a say a 2010+ car that has 7 airbags the full dsc tc rear camera… ie. the base stuff you get on any new car.

    I really love cars from say 1995-2005. I love that old hydraulic steering and 'older' car feel. But most people just want an easy all electric modern feel and safety.

    If you have $25k+ buy a new car. You dont need to mess with someone elses story.

  • brownsound on 25/11/2021 - 09:58
    +1

    subaru's have a pretty great driver aid system called Eyesight.

    I think they started appearing around 2014+ onwards. My 2014 Forester has it and has literally saved me a few times (since 2018) by beeping and/or automatically hitting the brakes to avoid hitting a car infront that has started stopping/slowing down.

    • Euphemistic on 26/11/2021 - 13:49
      +1

      You need to pay more attention if it’s saved you several times. You are not supposed to use those drivers aids regularly.

      • brownsound on 26/11/2021 - 16:59

        u aint wrong

        • tonyjzx on 28/11/2021 - 12:30

          i do it deliberately… i like pinging the aeb warning bing

  • crazyrichasians on 27/11/2021 - 15:27
    +1

    look up the used car safety guide. https://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/buyers_gui…
    It gives you an idea about the safety of some old cars in real world situation. The 2003 Camry is rated at 2 stars. Yes as a general rule, new cars are safer, but sometime, an older big car is safer than a newer small car.

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