Private Car Sale - Cracked Cylinder, Evidence Seller Lied

SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 09:44
Last edited 12/03/2022 - 11:48 by 1 other user

Bought a 2000 Deisel Mitsubishi Delica in late Dec for a premium price ($16k) with the seller claiming it was mechanically immaculate which seemed to check out in every regard… However, three months later it's at a Delica specialist getting a cracked cylinder head fixed which is going to cost approximately $3-$4k.

Two insections prior didn't detect any issues with he head (difficult/impossible to detect for anyone other than a specialist in this case), however turns out this Delica specialist had already diagnosed tis delica with a cracked cylinder head just WEEKS before I bought it. Meaning the seller knew about it didnt disclose the issue.

I have been communicating with the seller via text after the head issues started a few weeks after owning it, but he specifically advised against me taking it to the specialist as they charge too much etc. The seller claimed there were no known major issues at purchase, even when asked specifically about the head (as they're known to go around the 200k mark). I have this all on text messages, so I do have some written proof of this.

The seller also seems to be well known in Delica circles on the forums and FB pages an appears to do then up and sell them occasionally. He appears to have an automotive company and has custom swing arms fabricated for Delicas. He doesn't know I currently know he lied.

Unlikely, but if I have this evidence from the garage in writing, is there some way I can claim the $4k for repairs back from the seller? VCAT perhaps?

Automotive Mitsubishi Delica

Comments

  • Amaris on 12/03/2022 - 09:49
    +7

    The seller was dishonest with you. However, you bought a used car. I don't think he's required to tell you all he knows about the car's faults even if you ask specific questions.

    • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 10:00
      -1

      Pretty sure legally they do have to tell you. My understanding is its just near impossible to prove they lied in most circumstances. However question is whether the garage's evidence is enough to prove it, and how exactly I go about trying to reclaim the repair costs. Not sure if VCAT will hear about private car sales, its not really clear on the website, but you can make a claim for "Not as advertised" and "Not fit for purpose" online by the looks of it.

      • danbal on 12/03/2022 - 10:08
        +13

        Private buy/sell will be sold "as-is"

      • apsilon on 12/03/2022 - 10:15

        You'll need a solicitor IMO. INAL but it's something like obtain financial benefit by deception but I'm not sure it applies to private car sales. Either way you're paying so you can either pay the repair cost and move on or you can pay the same or more in costs to a solicitor and have everything take much longer.

        • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 10:20

          So VCAT doesnt hear private car sale disputes I take it?

          • apsilon on 12/03/2022 - 10:22

            @SkMed: No idea, you'll need to check with them.

            • oscargamer on 12/03/2022 - 11:08
              +3

              @apsilon: The seller doesn't have to volunteer anything. However if they advertise it had no known major issues and you have evidence to the contrary, then yes, you can make a claim against them. Likewise, if you asked the question 'does it have any engine issues' and they reply 'no' and you can prove that they did know, then you can initiate a claim .

              Good luck

              • apsilon on 12/03/2022 - 11:24

                @oscargamer: Definitely and it can come down to things like did OP actually ask if there were any issues. We haven't seen the ad and there's always two sides to a story.

                • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 11:34

                  @apsilon: Yeah, I asked re the head specifically and have text message exchanges afterwards where he claims there were no issues too. So I've got some evidence to go with a claim.

                  • apsilon on 12/03/2022 - 14:23
                    +2

                    @SkMed: Good luck with it then. Hopefully you'll come back and give us an update.

              • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 11:32

                @oscargamer: Ok cool, yeah was advertised as Mechanically sound with no issues, and I prettyuch have it during the text exchange after purchase as he said repeatedly there were no issues with the head that he knew about etc. However the specialist garage says otherwise (which is obviously why he was telling me not to go there).

                • danbal on 12/03/2022 - 14:58

                  @SkMed: At the end of the day, no contracts written and nothing signed. Just a transfer of rego. You may TRY YOUR LUCK with using those text messages in VCAT. Whether the tribunal will side with you or not, while using your text message exchange as evidence, is solely up to the tribunal.

                  • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 15:01

                    @danbal: Thanks, yeah, seems that all I can try really. I'll first try ask he pay for half the repairs, or VCAT for the whole repair amount if that fails.

                    • oscargamer on 12/03/2022 - 16:48
                      +3

                      @SkMed: DO NOT ask for half.

                      If you do, that will be the maximum you will get if you win at VCAT.

                      Pm me for advice, if you want

                  • xyee on 12/03/2022 - 16:53
                    -3

                    @danbal: Consideration, offer and acceptance are requirements for a contract to be valid.

                    In this case, consideration is the $16k and offer and acceptance is payment of the said value and transfer of rego.

                    Therefore, there’s a contract; a verbal one.

                    If the seller sold you the vehicle through the automotive company, you might have a recourse under ACL for misleading and deceptive conduct.

      • cameldownunder on 12/03/2022 - 18:03
        +1

        I think if the garage is willing to testify, that the seller knew about the issue ( report from garage ) and did not mention, then OP might have grounds for a case.

  • Jetstream on 12/03/2022 - 09:51
    +12

    Caveat empter
    Buyer beware
    You $hit outta luck

    • SlavOz on 15/03/2022 - 13:57

      Pretty much this. I've never heard of a worthwhile legal case mounted by someone who bought a shitty car. It happens every day and nothing gets done.

      By the time you talk to a lawyer and initiate proceedings, you'll be paying that extra $3k in legal fees. Just let it go. Do your research in the future and don't buy unless you can reasonably afford the risk of an untested repair.

  • pegaxs on 12/03/2022 - 09:53
    -1

    (Fropanity) how much? Christ, you got had, cracked engine head or not.

    • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 09:57

      Yeah, prices doubled due to covid. Assuming the head wasnt screwed, its a fair price for model and conditon. But an absolute rip-off with the screwed head.

    • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 10:36

      Diesel Delica prices are still high just looking now. Some creeping up to $30k even :O

      • cameldownunder on 12/03/2022 - 18:05
        +1

        Anyone want my 18 year old boat for 45K ? 60HP on a Quintrex Bowrider

        Boat prices have gone silly too.

  • whitelie on 12/03/2022 - 10:02

    "Checked out in every regard" - Did you get a professional, mechanical inspection on it?
    You don't have a leg to stand on. If you don't want to repair it, you do the same. Cover it up and sell it. I don't think any state has a 'cooling off' period with private sales.

    Perhaps this thread will offer some advice for the seller when you chase it up…

    • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 10:10

      Two mechanics inspected it and said the head was fine. Unfortunately Its not something that's easy/possible to diagnose during an inspection, or even with a dedicated test. I specifically had a TK head test done and it came back as ok. Some head isues can only be pinpointed over a longer period of time and noting the symptoms which is the case here.

      • whitelie on 12/03/2022 - 10:12

        Some advice here which basically says to me that a) it will take a long time to chase any money, b) the cost of a solicitor's work may outweigh the cost of repairs and c) there's very little chance of getting any money.
        Different story if it was sold thru a dealer but a private sale, it's essentially as is, where is due to a lack of contract.

      • DemocracyManifest on 12/03/2022 - 11:58
        +8

        You had two inspections and it’s 3 months later…hell no. It’s also a private sale. You should complain to the mechanics

        • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 14:37

          The issue was detected before the sale and kept quiet by the buyer is the point. It's difficult to diagnose, but point is that he knew and lied about it.

  • Euphemistic on 12/03/2022 - 10:10
    +7

    Shock news: car sellers lie and conceal problems.

    Once you pay for a second hand car from a private seller it’s yours as is.

  • Muzeeb on 12/03/2022 - 10:17

    Surely your PPI identified the cracked cylinder head.

    Edit: NVM

  • Stopback on 12/03/2022 - 10:17
    +1

    Ask for good will.

    Sort of hunting you will ruin his reputation with bad posts

    • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 10:21
      +7

      I'll be calling him out on all the FB groups and Forums if nothing comes of it for sure. Sick of being ripped off at every corner lately. Happaned with dodgy plumbers overcharging recently too.

  • Derrick Crane on 12/03/2022 - 10:41

    My mechanical expertise ends at putting petrol in the car but is it possible the crack occurred after you purchased the car?

    • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 10:48

      No, the specialist garage identified it before I purchased it.

      • Hybroid on 12/03/2022 - 11:33

        Allegedly though. Can that be proven beyond he said/she said?

        Are there are records of the specialist advising the owner. For example sometimes if mechanic advises you something is wrong but you decline to get it fixed, they write it down on the receipt to say services rejected so they're not liable in future if it causes an issue.

        Either case, don't think there's anything you can do really. Private sales are as-is here. Don't know what possessed you with that ridiculous purchase price in first place.

        • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 11:35

          It's a Diesel. Similar models have been going for over $20k in some instances depending on the modifications. This came with a few mods too.

        • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 11:36

          Similar setups go for about $20k+ at a dealer, so the price is about right (if it didn't have head issues of course)

        • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 11:39

          Re records, I'd assume they'd have records but I've not yet asked. Either way they've confirmed it had been to them multiple times prior to my purchase and they'd informed them of the issue and sure they'd provide this in writing to me at a minimum.

  • Hithere on 12/03/2022 - 10:51
    +3

    You purchased a car from a private seller, the car is not covered by a statutory warranty, two mechanics inspected it and said the head was fine.

    It's a case of buyer beware.

  • madreece on 12/03/2022 - 11:15

    What a shame you didn't get it checked out at the specialist garage.
    Sounds like you did the DD before purchase. Sometimes things just suck.
    Pay the money and move on with your life, the quicker the better.
    Good luck.

    • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 11:53

      I know! Problem is the only specialist is located in Geelong! So pretty much impossible to get it there for a pre inspection check :( was a nightmare even getting it there after I'd bought it.

  • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 12/03/2022 - 11:51
    +3

    First of all -16k on a 22 year old car YIKES

    Second of all - get legal advice

    Third - this is another example why it is generally better to buy from a dealer. Even if the dealer is shonky you can issue proceedings or claim compensation from the Fund

    Fourth - GET LEGAL ADVICE

    You had every opportunity to inspect as presented, and admit 2 inspections occurred, you are going to have a very difficult hill to climb.

    • DoctorCalculon on 12/03/2022 - 20:14

      Fourth - GET LEGAL ADVICE

      Which may simply add to OP's cost of owing a faulty vehicle.

      On the other hand, if OP goes to VCAT, and loses it is also possible the Respondent (Seller) can apply to recover their legal costs.

      • DemocracyManifest on 13/03/2022 - 20:46

        Hence don’t get legal advice, rely on precedent or establish your own. The seller probably won’t get any either beyond community legal centre. Lawyers are a waste of time re tribunals. OP would have to have kept a lot of documents and would have to submit them according to the tribunals guidelines

      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 15/03/2022 - 12:40

        Legal advice

        So should OP get car insurance? This may simply add to OP's cost of owning a vehicle.

        On the other hand, if OP gets into a crash, and is at fault it is also possible the other driver can sue OP and for costs and damages.

        Also it is extremely rare for VCAT to award costs unless a matter is frivolous. Regardless OP should get legal advice before they waste days, months, potentially a year of their time. VCAT is swamped right now. 6+ months for hearings.

        • DoctorCalculon on 15/03/2022 - 14:07

          So should OP get car insurance?

          Seriously not even the same analogy. We are talking about a faulty vehicle not a roadworthy one.

    • [Deactivated] on 12/03/2022 - 22:04

      First of all -16k on a 22 year old car YIKES

      Someone hasn't been looking at the used car market lately.

      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 15/03/2022 - 12:37

        Certainly have been, just because that niche model has blown up in price doesn't mean it's a good buy!

        • mapax on 15/03/2022 - 12:47

          Its not just niche models though, everything 4x4 and even 4x2 utes are way overpriced these days because every muppet thinks they need a four wheel drive or ute.
          Still doesn’t make it a good buy though, I briefly looked at Delicas about 4 years ago and OPs car would have sold for less than $10k.

        • [Deactivated] on 15/03/2022 - 14:19

          uhhh everything has shot up in price.

          It's a "good buy" if you need a vehicle now or think that prices may rise further (eg: house market) due to everything going on globally.

          Personally I don't want to pay $15k for something that was $5k two years ago and I don't need a car right now, so I'm not inclined to buy anything, but some people don't have a choice.

  • Jetstream on 12/03/2022 - 11:53
    +6

    Just to save you wasting your time, think about this from this point of view.

    Two mechanics said it was fine, one mechanic said cracked head. Therefore what would a reasonable person think, that’s it’s maybe not cracked?

    Second, if this guy (the seller) deals with delicas, and the specialist mechanic probably deals with him often - what chance do you think you will have getting the mechanic to go along and side with you - completely destroying the commercial relationship with King Delica?

    • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 11:58

      The mechanic who diagnosed the cracked head is an actual Delica specialist, it's litterally all they work on. Other two were general Mechanics, one had never even see one before. So I trust the specialist, they're just located in Geelong some 60km away though, so near impossible to get to.

      From their tone, sounded like they were familiar with him and they don't do business together, in fact, this guy actively tells people not to go to this specialist (including me) and tried to direct me to other mechanics instead, all of whom I couldn't contact at all

      • brendanm on 12/03/2022 - 14:15
        +3

        Other two were general Mechanics, one had never even see one before.

        It's a 4m40, it's nothing special. Its in pajeros, tritons etc. The Delica is just a mix of Pajero and triton bits.

      • brendanm on 12/03/2022 - 14:24

        From their tone, sounded like they were familiar with him and they don't do business together, in fact, this guy actively tells people not to go to this specialist (including me) and tried to direct me to other mechanics instead, all of whom I couldn't contact at all

        So, the guy didn't use them, but they diagnosed a head issue just weeks before you purchased it?

        • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 14:35

          Due to client confidentiality they can't say if it was him that brought it in, but said they can confirm it had been bought in about 2 weeks before I had purchased it (and possibly a 2nd time prior to that) and had the issue. I suspect someone else bought it in or asked him to take it as a pre purchase inspection check. Either way, point is, he would have known about it.

          • brendanm on 12/03/2022 - 15:52
            +1

            @SkMed: Perhaps it was sold to him in that way?

          • mapax on 12/03/2022 - 15:53
            +2

            @SkMed: If they won’t give you the name how do you know it wasn’t a potential buyer that took it in?
            The buyer might have then gone back to the seller and claimed that due to a bad head they will only pay $8k, meanwhile the seller thinks it’s a lie to get a cheaper price.

          • stewy on 12/03/2022 - 16:18
            +4

            @SkMed: Unless you can get the specialist to give you written confirmation the seller bought it in and the seller was directly told of the issues, you have no case.

            I'd be very wary trying to trash their reputation on the internet too, because unless you can prove your statements, they will potentially be able to pursue you for defamation if they wanted to.

            However, as others said, get proper legal advice.

          • altomic on 13/03/2022 - 21:27

            @SkMed:

            Due to client confidentiality

            lol

  • Hithere on 12/03/2022 - 12:30
    +1

    located in Geelong some 60km away though, so near impossible to get to.

    For a $16000 spend I'd push the car to Geelong, a 3/4 hour drive away at most. :D

    You could even have trailered the car there if it wasn't driveable.

    • SkMed on 12/03/2022 - 12:39
      -1

      Nah, closer to 1.5hr from here. What I mean is it is impossible to get it there for a pre purchase check prior to the sale due to distance and their backlog.

  • payless69 on 12/03/2022 - 13:13
    +1

    Mitsubishi Australia NEVER imported them. They were not thermally rated for Australia. I looked at getting one but way too many diesel specialists advised against. Ended up with a Toyota direct import van. It also overheated and died halfway thru a normal life.

  • resisting the urge on 12/03/2022 - 16:33
    +1

    First thing to check in Jap imports is if they have clean coolant and oil. A lot of Jap cars aren't well serviced with fresh liquids, due to owners making short trips and hoping this means they can eek out services. Also the high cost of chemical recycling, short periods of ownership, it all stacks up.

    Sludgey engines are a dead giveaway, their causes likely lead to pretty major failures.

  • kizzy on 12/03/2022 - 17:04
    -1

    Sell it to someone else ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    • bobbified on 12/03/2022 - 22:48

      A couple of people have negged your comment, but that's what I would expect most people to do if they were in that situation themselves! lol

    • SkMed on 13/03/2022 - 18:45

      Yeah I'm at the point in life where I'm realising this is how you get ahead, rip people off, be an arsehole and look after your own self interests. :/

      • brendanm on 14/03/2022 - 09:42

        Happy 5th birthday 🎂

      • kizzy on 14/03/2022 - 21:52

        Dunno, I only stated it as an option. Everyone is quick to say 'buyer beware'… so let them beware.

  • blwnhr on 13/03/2022 - 07:36

    You only get 3 months warranty buying a used car from a licenced dealer, you're never getting the same coverage from a private seller.

    Save yourself the grief and move on, have the repair made and enjoy the vehicle.

  • 2023 on 13/03/2022 - 08:22

    Sounds like case for Judge Judy!

    I've always seem 2nd hand purchases as a buyer beware situation, and should do any inspections/tests that would make you feel comfortable in making an informed decision.
    What constitutes that is up to you and dependent on what you're buying and for how much.

    If the seller is not agreeable to this then is usually a good sign to walk away from said sale.

  • Waltervp on 13/03/2022 - 10:28

    So why did he have it looked at by that specialist? What could the seller have done to stop the symptoms of a cracked head for 3 months so other tests didn't pick it up? Is it possible the specialist is confused? Or was the specialist keen to get the repair knowing that these models do crack heads at that age and that it was inevitable so he may as well get the job?

    I tend to say no matter what you think to just get the repair done and know that even if it didn't have a cracked head at time of purchase it was inevitable for any delica that age in the next year. At least from now on that won't be a problem. Think yourself lucky it didn't happen whilst on a trip, and fixing it now will ensure it won't happen on your next trip!

    • SkMed on 13/03/2022 - 18:51

      Yeah, i'd already assumed I'd be needing to fork out for some work on the head when buying it knowing the issues with Delicas. However if not factored this into the immediate cost, and I I'd known I obviously wouldn't have paid so much. Until a few days ago I just figured id gotten extremely unlucky with the timing, but now that I know he's pulled a fast one it's a harder pull to swallow. Especially after getting stitched up by tradies recently too. But you do have a point regarding being on a trip and the head going so I'll try focus on that. Wow be nice to call him out though and possibly prevent this happening to someone else.

      • brendanm on 14/03/2022 - 09:43

        but now that I know he's pulled a fast one

        You don't know that at all. You are ASSuming.

  • jrvb42 on 13/03/2022 - 10:30

    Caveat emptor. Buyer beware.
    Seller not obliged to tell you anything.
    This is a moral vs legal issue.
    Morally wrong, if they knew, but legal.
    Pay for a pre purchase inspection by a professional.

    • SkMed on 13/03/2022 - 18:34

      Yeah, unfortunately it's a difficult issue to detect apparently, took a dedicated specialist to know what was going on and the specialist is backlogged and located too far away to organise a PPI.

  • bobbified on 13/03/2022 - 10:33

    You bought a 20+ year old car. You buy it as-is. Even if you bought it from a dealer, there would be no warranty.

    So.. bad luck.

    • SkMed on 13/03/2022 - 18:28

      Pretty sure there is a warranty with a dealer isn't there?.. same model wld have gone for $20k+ so after all this i be in about the same place financially I guess.

      • Jetstream on 13/03/2022 - 18:31
        +3

        Nope . If it’s over 10 years old or 160,000klm, there is no statutory warranty

        • SkMed on 13/03/2022 - 18:32
          +1

          Oh really? I didn't know that. Makes me feel slightly better about the purchase then 🤣

      • bobbified on 13/03/2022 - 18:33

        Pretty sure there is a warranty with a dealer isn't there?

        In VIC, the statutory warranty that dealers must provide only applies to vehicles that are less than 10 years old and travelled less than 160,000km - and when it does apply, it's only for 3 months or 5,000km (whichever comes first).

        The car you've purchased is over 20 years old.

        • SkMed on 13/03/2022 - 18:40

          Yeah I didn't know that. So then there litterally no reason to pay a premium for an older car through dealer then?…

          • bobbified on 13/03/2022 - 18:45

            @SkMed: Not much benefit when the car is that old.

            Just a couple of things actually… the car they sell has to have a clear title and if there's any other issues (other than mechanical), it's much harder for them to run away because they can't just pick up their car yard and disappear like a seller on facebook or gumtree can. lol

            • SkMed on 13/03/2022 - 19:05

              @bobbified: Pretty easy to check if it's stolen prior though, so really no benefit buying from a dealer I guess?

  • dp1 on 13/03/2022 - 13:40
    +1

    Best advice my dad ever gave me was "Nobody gets rid of a good car. When you buy an old car you buy someone else's problem".
    There are exceptions such as ex fleet /rental cars or if the seller has had a genuine change in financial circumstances but if a car runs well, costs nothing in repairs and you've already worn the bulk of depreciation you'll keep it until it dies.

    • bobbified on 13/03/2022 - 18:35

      "Nobody gets rid of a good car. When you buy an old car you buy someone else's problem".

      That's true in a way, but their problem may not be a problem for someone else - for eg, the car is too small or too big. Or it's a fuel guzzler. haha

    • HeadTheWall on 13/03/2022 - 21:32
      +2

      What if you don't need a second car because you can now get Public Transport to your job, what if you are going travelling, what if you need to cut costs and a car or second car is a luxury.

      There are many different situations where you may have to sell a car, ridiculous statement IMO

  • tonyjzx on 13/03/2022 - 17:06
    -2

    if he was dishonest with you and you knew and you still bought the car then who's the idiot???

    • SkMed on 13/03/2022 - 17:44

      Obviously didn't read the post, found out 3 months after buying it that he was dishonest…

  • Peanut money on 14/03/2022 - 08:31
    +2

    Just state facts when you comment online incase of defamation liability

  • OzHunterNSW on 15/03/2022 - 16:20
    -3

    The seller may not have know. It was up to you to assess the vehicle. You did get a mechanic's report…. didn't you.

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