Windows 11 Comments on Refurb Deals

Sleeqb7 on 21/07/2022 - 09:04

I've noticed a trend that I don't understand.
Every deal for refurb PCs has the comments discussing whether or not the unit will take Windows 11. Whether it supports it, whether it will load it anyway, whether the unsupported version makes any difference, etc.

What I don't understand is why is it such a huge make or break for people.
I don't know of anything Windows 11 does that makes it a better OS than Windows 10, and I've not bothered updating.
In fact, with Microsoft fairly publicly trailing inserting ads in as many places as possible including Explorer, that's making me less likely to want to upgrade.

As I no longer work in IT sales, there may genuinely just be something I'm missing.
Is it purely W10 support ending in 2025? Because that's not going to make it unusable, it's basically just going to stop getting feature updates but honestly I can't remember a feature update that's made any impact in ages.

Why do people say a refurbished PC is a bad deal because it doesn't support W11?

Computing Microsoft Operating System

Comments

  • Quantumcat on 21/07/2022 - 09:15
    +4

    Not getting updates might mean no security updates and thus your machine is more vulnerable to being hacked?

    • mskeggs on 21/07/2022 - 09:19
      +7

      Eventually. Probably not an issue for the life of a refurb that is already 6 years old.
      And security updates will run longer than feature updates.
      I think there was even a free public patch for an XP vulnerability sometime in the last couple of years!

    • peternow on 21/07/2022 - 09:37
      +1

      https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/products/windows-…

      Oct 14 2025 is when Windows 10 Home and Pro go EOL.

      That's still another 3 years worth of support.

      • JimmyF on 21/07/2022 - 09:41

        So 6 years away at least, assuming they don't extend W10 support updates even longer. So heaps of time to get a new PC that supports W11 ;)

        • Sleeqb7 on 21/07/2022 - 10:13

          This is my assumption too. It's been the same with prior versions of Windows with very high adoption, why wouldn't they do the same for 10?

  • Brian McGee on 21/07/2022 - 09:22
    +6

    Because people seem to have an over inflated opinion of new operating systems. W11 will do nothing for a majority of users that W10 doesn't already offer.
    Once support ends they can either update to a newer and better supported machine for a similar cost in 2025 that will support the W11, or change over to a version of Linux or to Chrome OS for $0. Many options that will work just as well.

    • Sleeqb7 on 21/07/2022 - 11:42
      +3

      Historically I don't agree with people having high opinions of new a new OS. At least not on the Windows side of the fence.

      From at least XP onwards every new OS release was met with a sea of upset people, even when for all intents and purposes the new OS was simply better. Jeez some of those people who declared XP was the last OS they would ever need were fighting to keep 7 forever, and are now annoyed that 10 support is eventually ending.

      This is different from the Apple ecosystem in which new OS versions are seen pretty widely as good, the Windows environment has fairly unanimously has whiners.

      • Brian McGee on 21/07/2022 - 11:48

        W11 seems to be a bit of a combination case of people pushing for the update while simultaneously comdenming the TPM/Processor/RAM/etc restrictions.
        There'll probably be a support package for security well after '25 OS updates end, whether free or through subscriptions, that'll keep the older devices running til they break.

      • Gareth on 21/07/2022 - 13:29
        +1

        When you have 1b+ users, there doesn't need to be a high percentage of people with a complaint for it to affect several million people. A lot of these are often essentially 'who moved my cheese'.

        Microsoft doesn't help it though by providing a new version with features missing from the previous version - and then iteratively adding them back over months or years.

        Mac users have been trained with regular updates, often breaking changes, on an annual basis. Anyone who can't handle that will be back using a PC within a device generation. (It doesn't hurt that Apple's updates are usually very polished)

      • AndyC1 on 21/07/2022 - 15:58

        Then why are you asking about a new OS (Windows 11) if you "don't agree with people having high opinions of new a new OS"?

        • Sleeqb7 on 22/07/2022 - 08:52

          Because the comments on deals keep talking about the viability of installing W11 on the system, when the wider internet (Including this thread) shows that most people either dislike or couldn't care less about it. The disconnect between that comment section and everywhere else is the whole point of the thread.

  • Cheaplikethebird on 21/07/2022 - 09:38
    +3

    Why wouldn't you mention it? Mention if it does to use it as a selling point, mention if it doesn't to avoid a potential complaint.

    • Sleeqb7 on 21/07/2022 - 10:15

      If someone were posting the deal, absolutely. Should definitely be mentioned.

      However most of the discussion about W11 suitability is coming from the comments, rather than the people posting the deals. And they seem real confused and concerned about the outcome in some cases.

      • Cheaplikethebird on 21/07/2022 - 11:44

        True, well I think most people who aren't geeks are drawn in by the aesthetic similiarity to MacOS and haven't been burnt by early upgrades in the past.

  • Switchblade88 on 21/07/2022 - 09:45
    +3

    I don't know of anything Windows 11 does that makes it a better OS than Windows 10

    Exactly, I wholeheartedly agree. Don't forget the classic Windows cycle - every second version is bad. Win 95, ME, Vista, 8…

    The other potential issue popping up might be upgradeability options - if you can't use W11, you likely can't upgrade to 12, later assuming it's an improvement. So FOMO maybe?

    • mskeggs on 21/07/2022 - 10:20
      +6

      Win 95 was "bad"?
      Did you really wait to 1998 to let go of Win 3.1!

    • Roman Sandstorm on 21/07/2022 - 13:54
      +1

      Don't forget the classic Windows cycle - every second version is bad. Win 95, ME, Vista, 8

      I think you are confusing this with Star Trek movies.

      • Switchblade88 on 21/07/2022 - 14:03

        The only good Star Trek movie is one with Captain Katherine Janeway!

        Which is… checks notes 30 seconds in one of them. Not nerdy enough to tell you which one it was

    • misu p on 21/07/2022 - 14:02
      -2

      This is a myth already debunked.

    • juzza87 on 21/07/2022 - 14:16
      +1

      Wait…
      XP - Good
      VISTA - Bad
      7 - Good
      8 - Bad
      8.1 - Good?
      10 - Bad???
      11 - Good?????????

      • Switchblade88 on 21/07/2022 - 14:19
        +4

        Don't give Microsoft any credit for trying to make 8.1 a 'new' version of Windows. You can't polish a turd.

        • Sleeqb7 on 21/07/2022 - 15:28
          +4

          Agreed. 8.1 was 8 with a mod.

      • ParmiAndChips on 21/07/2022 - 17:28
        +1

        Not sure if 8.1 was meant to be included, but Windows 10 is total trash so the cycle is right in that regard

  • illogicalerror on 21/07/2022 - 09:50
    +6

    As a sysadmin trying to tame W11 now, in my opinion it's not ready.
    I just spent 30+ hours scripting and testing and applying policies and it does not meet the stability and usability requirements for general deployment on my network.
    W10 21H2 is currently the most secure and stably version and will likely remain so for some time, until W10 22H2 has finished it's teething issues at the end of the year. I anticipate that W11 will start to become usable late next year but will not be as stable as current W10's until early 2024. Ironically MS has announced EOL for 11 in 2024. I suspect it may just be a beta OS for W12, like W8 was a beta OS for W10.

    • kusama on 21/07/2022 - 10:12
      +1

      We are letting early adopters evaluate Windows 11, alongside testing enhanced security NTLM off, CIS policies in. We have quite a few models that don't pass the WIN11 Microsoft requirements. We will decide after W10 22H2 if it goes default.

      I'm using it for work and it has been fine for me, but not at home due to a GPU issue.

      • illogicalerror on 21/07/2022 - 11:10
        +1

        If I was in a straight up cloudy azure 365 corporate environment W11 might be passable, but being in a secure manufacturing environment it fails. It makes far too much noise and expects to default to shadow IT and cloud. As we don't do that single point of failure scheme it fights administration at every step.
        I tested it heavily and was able to get it to throw a bunch of errors that are just "oh that's a bug" with no known solution, just try these 25 things and it might come right, type events. So many dead GPO's that just don't work and it fights not to allow you to make those changes in any interface. That's really not where I want to be right now, someone else can do the heavy lifting and sort out this clusterfk. I'll come back in a year and have another look.

        For a home computer like just surfing the net and personal documents it might pass. Most people don't really want to control their machines so MS taking full control is probably a good thing.

        • kusama on 21/07/2022 - 14:11
          -1

          Yeah, sounds like you need to wait it out.
          11 sounds like the next Vista/W8 for environments such as yours.

        • Roman Sandstorm on 21/07/2022 - 14:12

          @illogicalerror, I do not doubt your technical competence, nor your conclusions, in your environment.

          But your blanket assertions "does not meet the stability and usability requirements", "anticipate that W11 will start to become usable late next year", "someone else can do the heavy lifting and sort out this clusterfk" are certainly not applicable for every enviorment.

          And the problem is: casual home or business users (the overwhelming majority of whom do not have specialist, turnkey software and hardware) may superficially read your comments as "Here's an IT pro who has tested W11 and thinks it's rubbish".

          I read somewhere recently (sorry, can't be arsed finding the actual reference) that the proportion of incompatibilities, software fairlures, etc reported to MS from Windows 11 is proportionally lower than previous version upgrades. (Of course, that may be due to this being a lesser 'jump' than say XP to 7, etc.)

          I agree 100% with your due diligence, and your conclusions, in your particular specific industrial situation. But for the vast majority of 'normal' offices and home users, Windows 11 isn't really a big issue.

          BTW, for those horrified by the repositioning of the Start Menu, Button and Taskbar to the centre (a la Mac) there is a single button click option to move the button and Taskbar back across to the left just like Windows 10.

          • illogicalerror on 21/07/2022 - 14:52
            +1

            @Roman Sandstorm: I didn't make blanket assertions, you just quoted all bits of my sentences and put them together without the context. Other people can read too. Pretty bloody weak mate.

            I wouldn't choose W11 yet as a consumer either, it's still in teething phase. As every MS OS has been in their first 1-2 years. Sure many people won't have issues, but many will, many more than those who stayed with W10 for this phase. Nine out of ten machines are no issue at all… then there's that one. All that said, I wouldn't downgrade a consumer laptop if I bought it with W11 now, but if I was on W10 I wouldn't update either. Anyhow… just thoughts on the topic.

    • Sleeqb7 on 21/07/2022 - 10:17

      W11 EOL in 2024? Whereabouts was that announced?

      I did hear about "Major releases every 3 years" meaning W12 is presumably not far off, but to have W11 support cease before W10 support would be interesting.

      • kusama on 21/07/2022 - 10:20
        +1

        https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/products/windows-…

        The update process will get smoother every release

        • Sleeqb7 on 21/07/2022 - 10:21
          +1

          Ah right, the specific version. My bad.

        • illogicalerror on 21/07/2022 - 11:13

          "The update process will get smoother every release"

          Hahaha… and Win10 will be the last version of Windows and the 365 number refers to availability.

          My educated guess is that even MS doesn't know what they are going to be doing in a year, their tech decisions appear to be being made by marketing hit squads.

          • kusama on 21/07/2022 - 13:52

            @illogicalerror: I share your pain.. I have spent a lot of time upgrading enterprise machines and making work arounds, there's things that they haven't or wont fix for us. I have noticed improvements like enablement packages for feature updates and doing more of the upgrade inside the OS. I'm sure it will get better.

  • jv on 21/07/2022 - 10:00
    +4

    What I don't understand is why is it such a huge make or break for people.

    Only "make or break" if you want to use Windows 11.

  • randomusername2017 on 21/07/2022 - 10:11
    +1

    System would be current with W11
    Easier to flip on fbm.

    • Sleeqb7 on 21/07/2022 - 10:24

      Remember when W10 forced upgrades came around? W7 comptuers were fetching a premium!
      Maybe we can do the same with W11/W10?

  • OMGJL on 21/07/2022 - 10:15

    Windows 11 have "Windows Subsystem for Android", which I think works better for light app than bluestack etc,

    the application DPI scaling seems to work a bit better on win11 (only applies when you have 2 monitor with different DPI scaling), though either win10/11 have worse DPI scaling than Mac OS…….

    But at the same time Windows 11 break animation on Virtual Desktop (Ctrl + Win + Left/Right arrow) for almost a year now, which is extremely annoying, Virtual Desktop on win10 is not broken though… (again either win10/11 have wayyyyy worse vitrual desktop than Mac OS)

    Mac OS on the other hand have very shitty game support and I hate the mouse accerlation handling on Mac OS…. With everyday app Mac works well enough for me, but I still need to come back to Windows to play games, and it is very tiring to reboot back and forth (I use hackintosh btw) so I kinda have to stick with windows……

    I wish one day Windows can copy Mac's Virtual Desktop, smooth animation and DPI scaling, or Mac can come up with better game support.

    • Gareth on 21/07/2022 - 13:17

      Windows 11 have "Windows Subsystem for Android"

      Yes, if you're in the US, you can access the Beta service which lets you access a limited supply of apps from the Amazon AppStore.

      Basically useless (at the moment, and it would appear for the foreseeable future)

      • OMGJL on 21/07/2022 - 14:12

        I have it installed on my Surface Pro 8 via the DISM command, it's working and everything, you can install app via adb too, works quite nice.

  • netjock on 21/07/2022 - 10:17

    For W11 you need an 8 series Intel CPU (and TPM which most laptops have). If there isn't much of a price difference between 8 series cpu and 6 series (you also get additional 2 core) I'd wait for a deal to come up.

    There was a Dell Latitude 7390 (16gb 256gb SSD) for $399 (ebay with 20% off) about a month ago. Laptops only get cheaper.

  • Clear on 21/07/2022 - 10:23
    +2

    Still incredibly easy to bypass Win11 requirements anyway.

    • jv on 21/07/2022 - 10:48
      -1

      and risk issues with drivers for older devices…

  • pharkurnell on 21/07/2022 - 11:36

    I don't know of anything Windows 11 does that makes it a better OS than Windows 10, and I've not bothered updating.

    Same… even with new machines work buys we still go Win10 thru Dell.

  • boomramada on 21/07/2022 - 11:39
    +2

    Biggest joke off all, people expecting 10yo hardware to be future proof for next 20years :)
    if people seriously worried about security update, just get a current generation PC. Getting a 10yo and installing windows 11 by bypassing the TPM check doesn't make it any secure either.

    Nothing wrong with buying a old tech, with win10 and use it beyond October 14, 2025. I know plenty of business (inc gov) still running on win7.

    • Sleeqb7 on 21/07/2022 - 11:45
      +1

      A lot of medical and key infrastructures are still on XP in areas.

      • boomramada on 21/07/2022 - 11:58
        +1

        Yeah some of them are pretty impossible to upgrade. Mainly due to no upgradable drivers. I know some places best they could do was to block them from internet.

      • toomuchdogfur on 21/07/2022 - 15:00
        +1

        Yeah these things are a nightmare for IT. Engineering firms building software to engineering timelines (e.g. this generator should last fifty years so the software will stay the same too).

        All fine and dandy if its just a control PC connected to its device and nothing else, but an increasing proportion of devices are now demanding network connectivity due to some smart feature or remote control functionality. Thankfully IT security awareness is only ever rising so I'd expect that the pressure from larger customers of these companies will lead them to provide proper ongoing software support, or at least provide better ways to harden their systems.

      • AndyC1 on 21/07/2022 - 16:00

        That is due regulatory and insurance costs due to the costs of upgrading an OS and … and …

        Why do you think NASA still uses 1980's and 1990's era computers on their satellites?

  • bdl on 21/07/2022 - 12:43

    Coz they don't wanna use Linux :)

    • NigelPearson on 22/07/2022 - 19:21

      Um, but WSL ? Maybe some of them do !!!

  • Raulioli8810 on 22/07/2022 - 08:10
    +1

    Windows 11 is worst then windows 10. I updated my surface pro 7 and all I had was issues with it. Program compatible issues, brightness issues, face unlock issues, the list goes on. I've had a hard time downgrading it now cause windows doesnt like that but I figured it out thankfully.
    So never go back to 11

  • ColtNoir on 22/07/2022 - 18:05
    +1

    Not everyone knows IT and it’s a simple requirements questions. If someone who has no idea bought a computer they couldn’t upgrade, they’d be pissed. Pretty simple.

  • Nillionaire on 24/07/2022 - 02:16

    Win 11 > Win 10

    Why? Win 11 looks nicer aesthetically. Nothing else matters.

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