Hey guys
Need your advice on this Red Light Infringement. I was new to the area and went in the lane that was turning right. I did not go right but went straight (can be seen in the second image) but the camera detected it and received the Infringement.
https://ibb.co/7gNQBtL
https://ibb.co/0BMp2Hb
Do you guys think there is a a chance I can get out of it if I take it to court?
Your advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks for reading.
Hey mate, yes I did indicate but it didn't show up in the pics as there are only 2 I could find online.
Why not. LEDs don't have a lingering time. It's your eyeballs still seeing light and a camera is definitely a lot faster here. Even so. The indicators could simply be out of sync with the camera. Eg
Indicator on at 16:12.00.100
First Flash at 16:12.01.000
Indicator on again at 16:12.01.100
Second Flash at 16.12.02
This gives the indicator 900ms to "cooldown" after they turn on.
@Yawhae: A good demonstration of this can be seen in motorsport footage. The WEC series is excellent at it. Fancy shaped brake/tail lights doing weird funky disco dances. You always get comments from noobs asking wtf is going on with the lights and why the drivers aren't distracted by them.
@banana365: It is equal when you are trying to comapare the timings of what is seen in 2 still images.
@stumo: Absolutely, but not for exposure length though, which is what makes the difference for whether it will pick up an indicator flash. In practice, there's probably not a lot of difference between them these days though.
@[Deactivated]: I know, but that's irrelevant. If the indicator is lit half the time, then there's obviously a chance that two (or more) frames are taken that show no light on even if it is used. Just FYI.
I'm not saying OP is in the right or in the wrong, just trying to point out that the weird obsession with no indicator being shown is irrelevant. Just FYI.
@Yawhae: some people like to pretend to be smart and when they dont have facts to back it up - they make them up
Why does it matter if OP indicated or not? The lane change is still illegal … with an indicator or not!
@factor: It's not a lane change. It's entering the intersection in contravention of the signal.
Changing lanes in an intersection is also an offence, fyi.
It doesn't matter about the probability.
Your mistake was not to reverse as to not trip the sensors when going straight. If reverse will hit another car, just turn right and not tempted the light.
Omg you must be an insufferable person if that is the way you think.
Nailed it.
No excuses or pardons with red light fines.
Apart from the one where you didn't actually turn on the red light! That excuse still works.
Your logic, if you go through a red light and T-bone another car you didn't actually run the red light because you never completed the turn.
What car would they be t-boning if they are driving straight through the intersection on a green light?
Did you at least indicate for the illegal lane change?
Is it actually illegal to change lanes from the turning lane?
It's illegal to go through a solid line or to change lanes in an intersection, so yes.
TIL.
@magic8ballgag: When are you going for your licence?
At least you know before you get to drive by yourself.
Crisis averted.
Yeah I think the fine will stand on this one.
To anyone wondering, this is the intersection. Low key really excited that I immediately knew the intersection from the pics.
Wow well recognised.
ooft I originally came here to say that OP may have an argument if there wasn't much notification that it was a turning lane.. but now that I see it on google maps I see that OP was in the wrong.
OP I think you're gonna have a bad time on this occasion, there was plenty of notice that it was a turning lane.. there's a sign that states right lane must turn left, and there's a pretty clear line that guides you into the left lane..
I wonder if the camera would have flashed if you went in the left hand lane when you crossed the line and then turned right?
@tonyjzx: Any other ridiculous fines you would like to see waived? Maybe the ones where the driver is only 75% over the speed limit? Or 75% of the way over the pedestrian crossing or 75% of the way over the stop line? Maybe get rid of that 75% of the way into the bicycle lane? How about the only 75% of the way over double white lines? Or maybe indicating when you’re already 75% of the way round the corner or into the next lane.
he's guilty in the eyes of the law but that wasnt his intent.
Laws seldom care about your good intentions but more about your observable actions. What OP did here was just downright dangerous and should be copping multiple infringements, not just being let off because “MuH iNtEnTz”.
I hope OP seeks a review and they do review it and throw another 2 or 3 infringements on top.
I SeE yOr uPsEt…
Pointing out your ridiculous “iTz OnLy 75% oVeR tHe LiNe” observation makes me upset? Lol. Ok, champ. At least my IQ is still 75% higher than yours when it comes to road rules…
wHaT wOuLd tHa cRiMe bE
Breaking road rules is not a criminal offence (unless it’s driving very very fast or very very drunk and/or you kill or injure someone) so no “crimes” here. But, no camera and a police car was following OP instead, could have rendered them something along the lines of this
Or were you trying to play the “iTz OnLy iLLeGaL iF yOuSe geT cAuGhT” angle?
@pegaxs: Sorry @pegaxs, I've had to neg this comment because I hate alternate caps. You're allowed to be petty on Ozbargain right? ;-)
BTW, I upvoted a couple of your other comments to compensate.
@tonyjzx: The car driver absolutely ran the red. It's people like you who think they're so much smarter than the road laws who are the first to pull stuff like this, nearly knock me off my motorbike, then fling out the classic "OopS I DiDn'T SeE yOu"
Think it uses a image mask or inground wires to detect where the violations zones in the framing of the shot are. Would be interesting to try if you didn’t care about the $$$ or points.
@[Deactivated]: You could probably try it with a push bike with a strong magnet attached so it thinks you're a car. But running a red in a push bike might be a bit scary.
Right lane must turn left…. Damn I'm surprised this intersection doesn't get more accidents.
Yeah I cooked that but was too late to edit haha
Lol. Turn right lane is like 100m long. 100% no excuse
I was new to the area
Then concentrate harder.
It's actually closer to 110m long and OP drove over a broken line and 3 turn arrows before coming to the continuous lane marking and stop line.
At 40km/h (measured from the photos), OP had some 10 or so seconds from just before the lane dividing to where the continuous line starts, (not to mention the road sign that quote clearly states "Right lane must turn right" at the start of the lane division, big, bold right turn arrows and a dotted line directing your lane to go left) to make their decision to leave that lane.
This isn't about "Oh, I didn't know…" from not concentrating/new to the area, this was willful. 100% OP got closer to the lights hoping it would change as they got there, it didn't, so they just took the other option, and that was to just merge left and keep going.
OP could have turned right into the road earlier from Orford St (and missed most of the arrows).
Also, the google maps link shows a red car straddling the two lanes too (just after Orford St).
OP, is not alone in the sloppy driving stakes it seems.
howdy neighbours :)
Southside justice
Just like that - with know actual knowledge of what the precise offence is, you think it will stand? Nice
i would 100% appeal to get this fine withdrawn, the reason why red light cameras take two shots is to prove the direction you were going and to assess the speed. if its just for running the red and not a speeding fine, you "may" get out of a technicality since the 2nd pic shows you didn't make the turn, its worth the gamble appealing it imo, may not go your way, but it may just work. In terms of taking this matter to court, if the appeal doesn't work, it may be more hassle then its worth but thats completely up to you, as the courts rarely show much leniency + your maneuver at the lights was not legal either, even if you thought it was safe to do so.
TL;DR try an appeal, even if it's unlikely it'll work it's quick and easy, otherwise, courts will just be a waste of time
Thanks for your response. Okay, so technically I didn't run the red light. I just went straight from the wrong lane.
Do you know much about the appeal process? Should I seek legal advice or just show up myself?
You currently have 3 options, of which a letter of appeal is still available to you if you have not exercised that right yet. In this instance, my recommendation is for you to be sending an appeal letter (this is not a court appearance) to the address that you can find on the fine itself, also put your fine with your letter when you send it off, they will just return you a notification letter of whether your appeal was successful, or just another copy of the fine if unsuccessful of which your only 2 options left would be to pay the fine or go to court.
The main contents of the appeal should contain;
Hey mate, its a QLD fine if that makes a difference. The 3 options listed are:
1. Pay the fine
2. Submit a declaration - if I was not the driver
3. Take it to court.
@singhsta: what I stated above was for VIC, I would suggest calling up the QLD GOV general enquiries/fines department to discuss what your options are.
Anyway, if you are not feeling confident you will win the court case, it will end up costing you much more than the fine itself, don't shoot yourself in the foot unnecessarily, the fine itself is already enough punishment as it is. You should weigh out the risks and potential additional costs of going to court, as you will still be charged court fees even if you represent yourself and lose. You have to win the case, and this is unlikely unless you have strong legal counterpoints, but due to precedence they will throw everything at you to win with virtually unlimited resources, just keep this in mind, and furthermore, to prove the red light camera was faulty you would need to bring in an expert to dispute the accuracy/validity of the device so it won't be free regardless. There's also the fact that even if the red light infringement is withdrawn, they have cause to charge you for the other violations as explaining your side of events may implicate you for other penalties.
@ULT: Take it to court - it won't cost you more than the fine. You might have to pay a court fee at worst, but the court is very unlikely to award costs of the other party (i.e. Revenue QLD or whatever). So you're really risking the court fee, and you're likely to win this one. Read the legislation in detail about how they define what constitutes running a red - does your lane origination matter.
@ULT: He would win the court case though.
It would be an absolutely travesty of justice for a fine to be upheld when clearly the offense wasn't committed.
@ULT: He doesn't need to prove the camera was faulty.
They need to prove that he turned on the red.
And the pictures themselves show that this did not happen.
@trapper: @trapper @echelon valid points, I did say if OP were "not feeling confident" they should not go to court, both of you have strong views and reasoning and could easily reply with reference as to why you should not be fined based on evidence alone, so going to court may be most appropriate for your circumstances. I totally agree with you both hence my OG comment above saying OP should appeal as the photos give them favour as OP did not make the turn (even though he tripped the sensors the second photo implicates he technically did not run the red light for a right turn specifically), but with it being a fine in QLD with only going to court being their only option, I do not want to potentially egg OP on unnecessarily unless OP strongly opposes the fine. OP just can't be wishy washy when testifying against the fine, especially with their expression of self representation. As a matter of principle OP should definitely go to court to fight it, but as a matter of belief, if OP does not have the willpower to fight the fine or does not even believe that they can win the case, the judge will not be swayed either. I can not assess OP's temperament as I do not know them personally, I just hope OP is able to make the decision that causes them the least amount of pain.
You did technically run the red light. You crossed the stop line while the lane you where in had a red light. You should have waited. Turned right, then navigated back to where you wanted to go.
Exactly my thoughts!
If you dont run red light, what's the fine of crossing that solid line?
He hasn't been issued any other ticket, so it doesn't matter.
It's not a technicality. You 100% did not run the red light.
He absolutely did. Do not give legal advice if you're not a lawyer.
He entered the intersection in contravention of the signal for his lane. The court will stack bricks on his head for wasting their time.
@[Deactivated]: I dunno, I feel there's a difference between being infringed for going straight from a turning lane and entering an intersection on a red light. OP was fined for turning right on a red, but didn't do that.
OP was fined for turning right on a red, but didn't do that.
No, they were fined for running a red light, which they did do.
Check the fine and demerit points in your state. Unbroken line between turning lane and straight lane which you have technically disregarded so they can nail you for that, see which one has the lesser fine and penalty.
I would 100% appeal this (at first by mail, and then at court if necessary), I wouldn't waste money on a lawyer, but there is a thing called a section 10, means found guilty, but no fine / demerits apply. (don't forget ,your insurance, greenslip and licence fees all increase with demerit points) I did something similar to this for a school zone (was a "gazetted school day" but in all effects a school holiday) and got to watch a LOT of other people plead their cases, (including a guy there with the same issue as mine). There was one lady (think Karen type) who argued with argued with the judge for nearly 10 minutes after being pulled over by the police for not keeping in the left lane. I wouln't have let her off but the judge did. I think they hand out section 10's without much fuss.
What's the actual infringement for? What's the road rule you breached?
Running the red light? Turning on red?
Is that accurate for what you did?
If I were you OP I’d atleast make an appeal at minimum to see how the case officer would consider. If they are strongly against what you are stating as your intentions I would cop the fine and move on. You might get out of it with a warning.
Do us all a favour and update later on how it goes.
Good luck 🤞
What's the fine for changing lanes without indicating?
It doesn't matter since he received no ticket for that.
Also the police don't vindictively charge people for other random offences just because they were innocent on the initial offense.
That would be a miscarriage of justice.
Are you saying that no offences were committed?
No offences for which a camera is the only required evidence were committed. To charge for anything else would require a witness.
@factor: You are unequivocally wrong. The light is the signal for his lane. He entered the intersection in contravention of it. What he did after crossing the lane doesn't factor into it.
Take it to court and get a no guilty they'll just reissue you the fine with that. It's not being vindictive, or maybe it is but I know people it's happened to
Hmmm, I once caused an accident through misjudgement of an oncoming cars speed, my fault. No police attended the scene. I drove straight to the police station and reported the accident and they fined me for failing to give way. I thought it was a bit vindictive. Out of interest any Ozexperts know if they were required to issue me this fine or if they had some discretion?
The police aren't required to do anything really.
But when someone walks in and hands them a confession then why not?
It depends on what the rules are in QLD.
If I recall in NSW you can get fined by not using the lane properly.
Does it state which type of rule was broken?
e.g.
Rule 32 (1) Not turn right from far multi-lane road from within right lane
https://www.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-10/demerits-…
Hey mate, it says failed to stop at a red light.
Yep - at least half your car crossed the right turn lane's stop line. The right turn lane had a red light arrow at the time so you failed to stop at a red light.
You can try to contest it but at that point, you're playing russian roulette. You either end up with a nice judge who may throw it out, or you end up paying court fees and fine.
Not sure what state you're in, but you could possibly try to have the penalty downgraded to "disobey right/left lane must turn right/left sign". In NSW it's a lesser penalty (albeit still with demerits) than running a red.
I did the same, camera's flashed and was worried but never received the Infringement . It was in Sydney though. I think you should appeal for this one.
Same, but on a motorbike. I got the flash, but no ticket arrived. VIC. I figured I would be able to get off the red light, but I might get done for the lane change if they were keen.
I did the same also in Sydney, from the right turning lane then changed my mind to go straight got flashed and never received a notice.
LOL :D
Are you saying to want the fines for the crossing over continuous line, disobey lane turn arrow, changing lanes without signalling and failing to travel within single lane instead???
Do you guys think there is a a chance I can get out of it if I take it to court?
I think you should head to your closest motor vehicle registry and hand your license in.
InB4: OP asks to delete thread, OP deletes post with [DELETED] and it gets revised, DisabledUser123456, photos deleted (saved for prosperity)
Here in QLD, these mean nothing. It really makes me wonder if people understand what continuous lines mean.
From the Qld demerit points schedule
Total: 8 demerits and $459 (+ potential fine from not staying withing own lane.)
vs.
Red Light Camera: 3 demerits, $575 fine.
I know in Victoria there's a limit to how many traffic offences you can be fined for simultaneously, which I think is 3. That leaves only the first 3, or maybe a bigger fine and less demerits.
@Zephyrus: Yeah, that I don’t believe.
You’re trying to tell me, that if I was speeding, without a seatbelt on, while drunk, down a one way street the wrong way, on the wrong side of the road in a bike lane, blasting through a stop sign, while using my phone and watching a video on the in car display in an unregistered and uninsured car that I would only get 3 fines in total?
Cool…
On a side note, I took the measurements of OP's car (Around 2014 Mitsu. Oulander, wheel base of 2.6m) and did some calculations using the road markings.
OP's car was moving at approximately 40 km/h. The red light had been red for 86.6 seconds before OP arrived at the line. In 1second, they had moved approximately 11.5m between the first and second photo.
So, sadly, I cant add "speeding" to their list of other infringements.
sadly
The schadenfreude is strong with this one
There is no 'instead', he was only issued one ticket.
Yikes, listen to yourself.
Time to go outside for a walk mate.
Unfortunately going straight in a lane indicating you can only go right is just as bad of an infringement.
Also changing lanes at an intersection is illegal as well unfortunately.
Either way it's an illegal move.
Also changing lanes at an intersection is illegal as well unfortunately.
I believe that may be incorrect as I can not find any reference in the legislation that asserts that.
Most of the references that I can find clearly say it is legal to change lanes in an intersection (as well as on a roundabout) as long as the usual precautions are taken.
They all clearly opine that it should be avoided if at all possible.
Well, that article is vague at best and doesn't actually reference any solid legislation or at least a particular rule in that legislation.
Also changing lanes at an intersection is illegal as well unfortunately.
This is not entirely correct. The lines before the intersection are considered to continue through the intersection. So, say if I am in the left lane and approaching a set of lights and the dividing line between left and right lane is a broken line, then I can move from the left lane to the right lane as I enter the intersection (providing that I also adhere to the "give way when moving lanes" road rules).
If the line between left and right lanes is a continuous, unbroken line, then no, I cannot change, as these lines are considered to continue through the intersection. (here, have some MS Paint examples)
Now, this changes if there is any other road markings, as in OP's case, because the lane they are in specifies that you MUST turn right and that there is a continuous white line. doing anything other than turning right is considered as turning left. So, yes, absolutely it is illegal in OP's case because they A: disobeyed the signs and arrow for that lane and B: disobeyed the continuous white line for their lane not to cross over it.
I can do that too -
HereYouGo
It is still just a link to an opinion piece (an informed one, but still not the legislation).
There was also a poll by VicPol on Facebook on the same issue and they confirm that it is not illegal.
He wasn't fined for anything else.
You don't pay a fine for something you clearly didn't do because of all the things you did do but weren't fined for. That makes no sense at all.
But you can have a fine thrown out and replaced with another, especially when you have evidence like this ;)
No excuses or pardons with red light fines.
It's just bad luck and a life lesson.
Did you at least indicate for the illegal lane change?