I turned on the news for the first time in a while, and see that Sydney Train industrial action is still in progress.
Thankfully, it does not affect me, but I am having difficulty understanding what all of this is about.
The news does not seem to cover the relevant details such as what the train drivers are actually getting paid.
I was always of the impression, that train drivers get good money - anyone in the know able to make comment?
liberal government just don't care
they know what ever they do they will lose in a land side. Labor needs to remain silent for 6 months and they will win.
like scomo in the federal election, he was just splashing cash like crazy near the end, racking up debt, driving inflation up, care factor zero
unions want more pay, don't care, wanna strike, go for it, not check tickets and lose money, that's the next government's problem
Then a week after Labor wins, it will be “Look at what Labor has caused…”
Then we find out Perrottet was the minister for everything and secretly running an autocracy which apparently is completely legal and the fact he didn't tell anyone doesn't matter.
He’ll probably give those roles to his 7 kids.
If anything the Korean made trains would be better quality than what they've got surely. Admittedly after the light rail trains started cracking NSW procurement doesn't exactly have a stellar record and they're definitely lazy. WA managed to get their fleet built in Perth. Classic Liberals, get it for the bottom dollar and then worry about the fallout later.
Yes train drivers are highly paid (after overtime in WA some clear upwards of $140-$150k+ a year)
Although it sounds like the union wants a safety officer/guard on every carriage which is a bit of a reach as CCTV etc has reduced the need for this. This screams of Ansett's union demanding their planes be equipped to accommodate flight engineers be on board when Boeing had effectively designed out their role, and we all know what happened to them.
Surely this would make for a better argument to automate the entire network, think of the cost savings (and not having drivers face confronting images when their train hits a person) I think the union is just flexing its muscles on this one and think it's a joke of a strike action.
If the trains are from New Zealand, these lots still find cause to (profanity) the whole thing up for consumers. Lucky, I don't need to travel on bus or train for work for like 2 years now.
The cost is ludicrous to make it driver free. They are already canceling projects because they can’t afford them.
Stop wasting my money on ideological wars. Ffs.
The return on investment would take decades meanwhile projects wont get built because you used those dollars to fight a stupid war. What the hell is wrong with people
Cost Source?
The nsw government advised the bankstown line conversion to metro from sydnenham to bankstown will cost $1 to $1.5billion and that line is basic with no interface with other lines.
So, you can do the maffs
@Awoke: Thats a civils construction project.
This is a technological project.
Apples and oranges.
No where near the same input costs
@Drakesy: I do know a little about the network. Hiw long has ATP been going from a technological and retrofit perspective and how much has it cost. Also, thats not even capable of driverless because you cant go driverless without having metro like safety protection for boarding and alighting
@Awoke: This is purely automation costs.
Secondary costs such as level crossing removals are a project in itself, aimed at reducing car collisions so would not be a part of the automation side of things (this is already occuring and costed out anyway.
@Drakesy: So. How much for the full network to go driverless and to operate as driverless? Including all safety requirements for users etc etc
A billion might get you the line between sutherland and Cronulla
So it looks like the CCTV system is flawed and has alot of issues with displaying through bad weather.
Source:
https://www.9news.com.au/national/transport-nsw-news-major-s…
The cameras are also obscured when the doors are open, so if someone falls into the gap, the driver can't see them.
The cameras are also obscured when the doors are open, so if someone falls into the gap, the driver can't see them.
So just install more cameras where you can see them
Also you won't have gap issues when they install the platform doors that prevent you from walking into the gap, and they can bring down the tolerance a fair way by widening platforms. Engineers do exist ;).
M8 I'm not doubting that it cant be fixed, but it needs to happen.
They just need to put the cameras further out from the body.
Imaging having to look at a matrix of 16 cameras that all look the same to check if no one is stuck instead of just looking down each side of the train.
I can't wait for the new South West Sydney Metro. No train driver no guards. Today there were public transport officers at the station gates and one asked me where I was going. I hadn't even tapped on yet or moved into the 'ticket holder zone'. They were there to intimidate people into tapping on. Then on the train there were police. Where are they all coming out of all of a sudden?! During non strike days they're rarely seen and now they're all over the place.
the official announcement I keep hearing is that they are not allowed to give out fines during the strike. I think the police presence is just a scare tactic to make people think they will get fined. It's a subtle misinformation trick from the government - make people think they need to pay when really they don't.
I've been riding the train all week without tapping on. I'm the type of guy who'll go back to McDonald's if they give me $1 extra change…it's practically stealing to accept it. But trains were built using my taxes and then some, and the politicians earn a very handsome coin on the back of my hard work. I am morally entitled to free train rides. You cannot steal something that was stolen from you in the first place.
I agree with your assertion. There is definitely heaps of misinformation regarding the "free travel". I believe it should last atleast until the 6th september if the strike action continues. I personally haven't made use of it yet but it will be interesting to see what happens if the police/transit officers start fining people. I don't think the fine would hold up in court considering all of the messaging from the govt about not needing to tap on and that there won't be any enforcement during this period. I have this information from newspaper articles referenced on my phone as evidence.
The union should tell us how much train drivers actually get paid. They're silent on that. I heard that train drivers get paid six figure salaries! If they received less I think that the union would be telling us all about it but they're silent on train drivers who I believe are getting paid very well and want more.
Why don't you apply to be a train driver if you think they are paid very well?
More info about the strikes, however, found here.
Why don’t you look it up yourself. Go to fair work and look it up. The awards and agreements are all there. The employer is called… wait for it… sydney trains.
Or would you like someone to hold your hand and show you because its too hard?
Has anyone actually seen or been on Korean trains & subways? So quick to judge an imported good, yet failing to see outside the box or the real cause.
Their operations are spot on. On time to the minute, never any delays, safe as anything with plastic/glass preventing falling onto tracks, transporting greater X amount of people than Shitney. Never an issues since the rails are all the same height & sufficiently levelled. They had Opal 10-15yrs ago, you can even put your spare coins to top up too. Imagine that.
The problem with "safety concerns" lies not on the train, but actually on our infrastructure & p1ss poor rail/roads planning. 1 rainy day on the tracks and entire lines of distribution are cucked all the way from CBD, out to the West of West. Then you wanna put buses replacements on already congested, warped, scribble-like roads.
And have you seen our network. Its wonderful. Some platforms are 3 metres long and people can only get out through the rear door.
I actually think there’s no way to fix transport in Sydney. The topography of the land is not conducive to an efficient network. Instead of a flat land where you can build roads and rail any direction you want easily, the land is so hilly that roads are designed to curve instead of go straight because the road will be too steep or because it will be too hard to bore through a hill.
Same thing with the trains, and any project to bore tunnels underground when housing is so dense everywhere will need a lot of planning and assessment.
Sydney’s topography does not lend it any benefits whatsoever. Any sort of development for anything; roads, houses, rail tracks etc. would inherently be more expensive in Sydney simply because it’s so hilly.
Adding onto this also, driverless trains require straight platforms for the gates to line up with the train easily. There are train platforms in the southwest such as Bankstown station which are curved which will make engineering driverless trains for that line more difficult.
Are you telling me all other countries have railway systems structured around flat topography and straight lines?
@82norm: Yes, of course, that is exactly what I’m saying.
There is absolutely no way, ever, that any country, in the history of the planet, ever, and in any possible permutation of any and all futures, ever, can build transport infrastructure if the ground isn’t 100% flat, ever. Trains don’t ever exist anywhere there is a mountain, ever. That is exactly what I’m saying. /s
@Ghost47: "Trains don’t exist anywhere there is a mountain" - That would be quite a surprise for the Swiss and other European Countries as well as the Japanese …
So it looks like the CCTV system is flawed and has alot of issues with displaying through bad weather.
Source:
https://www.9news.com.au/national/transport-nsw-news-major-s…
The cameras are also obscured when the doors are open, so if someone falls into the gap, the driver can't see them.
I love how everyone thinks it’s all about train drivers…… it’s the whole railway, from cleaners to guards, station staff and office workers.
It's not the actual rail staff that have any issues, majority are grateful to have a job, it's the unions who have nothing else better to do than be a disruptor to society. They so not have the public's safety as a priority concern nor do they actually care wat rail staff get paid, union members are just the poor man's equivalent to try to get into real politics, without any qualifications. And no money to find their political career
You're confused. Unions are the members. Un qualified politicians? You're thinking of Barilaro.
Wow. Right. I’m not calling you stupid, but your comment is.
Union members are the ones taking the actions. Who are union members? They are, as you call them, ‘actual rail staff’
Sure, some are very likely ideologues but my guess is the majority are just like you and me and are fed up.
Like i keep saying, not a fan of unions but they’ve done it by the book. They followed the rules and what they are doing is legal. The government took them to court and lost. So its survival of the fittest in the dog eat dog world. Goods luck to em
I think you're kind of right but also kind of wrong. Union being the poor mans equivalent of real politics is pretty spot on (although I think politics in general is just a sham). If you are not a union member and are under an Enterprise Bargaining Agreement you will be pressured or possibly bullied to become a member. It's some sort of cultist club where you must peddle the views and perspectives handed down to you from the Union delegate. The union delegate is pretty much an ex-union worker who will always get paid more than the highest paid member he represents, so there's a self interest for them to constantly push wage and member number increases. But here's where you are wrong, most members are happy to follow along because they get constant pay rises, benefits and union protection (meaning very few suffer disciplinary action from their behaviors, some can pretty much get away with murder). The few members who recognise the lunacy of union demands aren't going to oppose the union, it's just not worth it.
So it looks like the CCTV system is flawed and has alot of issues with displaying through bad weather.
Source:
https://www.9news.com.au/national/transport-nsw-news-major-s…
The cameras are also obscured when the doors are open, so if someone falls into the gap, the driver can't see them.
I posed a response to this below:
Yeah, which was recognised through testing. You test to commission and fix recognised issues before running them in an official capacity. The union is striking from the result of initial testing, not what NSW Trains are actually running their services with. They jumped the gun before these issues were able to be fixed (that's part of normal commissioning) because they needed a reason to argue that they need more union members.
You are wrong.
The NSW government agreed to the changes yay but they refused to put it in writing.
So the "strike" continues.
One thing for sure, we’ll never know the truth behind the strike. Just let China run the system for us.
Let's just go back to the 2008 train timetable!
lol Ozbargain gets a hard on for any group that demands more pay. Nurses, teachers, big pharma companies, now it's the 6-figure train drivers. Never ends with this lot. Why not just give that money to actual homeless people who are starving to death?
Probably because homeless people don't bother voting, so no point in helping them.
Dog eat dog world. If they can get it, good on them. I’m kinda enjoying watching the place burn a bit.
Dog eat dog world
Only if we design it that way
From what I've read it's a two part dispute.
First part is on the premise of safety. Currently trains have two or more main staff on the train. The driver and the guard. The guard ensures the safety by observing, they obviously also have the duty to monitor the cameras and if there are issues on the train they'll call police, amongst many other things.
The new fleet of trains have more high-tech cameras etc that will enable the driver to see everything, but that means they can ditch the guard. But the safety issue is, the driver is focused on driving the train, not doing another person's extra load of work, and they think it's still going to be unsafe if it's just relying on cameras, maybe some blind spots.
The other is obviously higher wages. One thing I read is that people who work at Sydney Trains cannot go up to their bosses or anything and ask for a salary review like we can in our normal jobs, they require the union to negotiate for them.
Anyways I think the state govt, specifically the liberals always hate unions, so there's no doubt about that, but they are also great at painting the union and the employees as the criminals who are destroying this city, that's basically the narrative they continue with and with the help of murdoch they push that through.
I was watching some morning sunrise interview with Cockchie (Kochie), and he goes hounding on at the union lead about why are you doing this to Sydney, the government has promised what you want, what more are you guys after. Well the union lead calmly tries to explain it's an empty promise that is not signed off on, and the state government continues to keep saying they have agreed already so it's the unions fault, but the articles never mention the government hasn't made their promise in a signed off writing, which is why these strikes are back on.
The state government is just using it's media power to make the public turn against sydney trains.
The new trains have huge blindspot issues.
https://www.9news.com.au/national/transport-nsw-news-major-s…
Gov't jobs should not be based on a fixed award rate. There is no way every train driver is worth the exact same amount of money. Salary for these jobs (nurses too) should be based on individual negotiation when being hired, just like the private sector. Ask the applicant how much they want. Find a middle ground. Either they meet halfway or they reject the job and move on. We don't need them, there are plenty of others who would be willing to accept that offer.
And don't let them talk about pay on the job. This should be a rule in the public sector too. It's unethical and unfair. You agreed to do the job for $X, what someone else is earning shouldn't matter. If you think you're worth more, you can renegotiate and see how you go.
its based on who can agreee on what. I’m all for free market. So in this case its working as it should. Two sides are battling it out and the end will depend on who is stronger.
Seems you want government to intervene with laws to stop the free market which is odd. Really odd
lol the status quo is not a free market negotiation. Far from it. Very fee government industries operate on a free market model.
If you have 10 years of experience driving trains and you earn the same pay as a brand new train driver, that is not free market.
But who are we to say those two drivers can’t get together and agree amongst themselves to achieve what they want.
If thats what they want, then thats for them to decide. I’m sure there are non union members who can negotiate for themselves. And that’s good on em as well.
@Awoke: Sure, they can team up in an effort to increase their pay. Perfectly fine with that. But they don't have the right to the taxpayer's platform to do it. Accepting a job and then holding us at ransom for more money is a crock of shit and we should not stand for it. They can get together and do whatever the hell they want in their own time on their own platform. They will not use people's need for transport or healthcare as a bargaining chip.
@SlavOz: They have every right. How dare we restrict their freedoms. Have you lost your marbles?
Just like when people voted in dan and anna and then they did the lockdowns. Imagine people not protesting. Imagine saying too bad you voted them in now shut up and cop it.
@Awoke: Like I said- they are free to protest, but they don't have a right to other people's platform. I can protest too but that doesn't mean Channel 7 is obliged to report on it, nor can I force the train network to shut down so everyone has to read my signs. That's not how protesting works in a free market.
If my message is important enough, people will spread the word and listen. If my message is shit, people won't bother. That's the free market. Sabotaging the entire state's transportation network for your own benefit is not free market. That's akin to tying people up and forcing them to listen to you.
@SlavOz: Right. So if i work for the train network and decide to withdraw my labour (legally) to protest and not get paid, you are saying i should not be allowed to do it because slavoz might be inconvenienced getting to his whatever it is you do.
The free market is me and the boss negotiating. If i want to withdraw my labour during the negotiations well, I should be able to freely. Anything different is not the free market but really a government controlled arrangement.
You of all bloody people should know that. What the hell is up with you? I actually don’t believe what I’m reading is actually you.
And don't let them talk about pay on the job.
I don't think censoring employees is a good idea and I would go the other way and have complete transparency of wages.
100%. I definitely don’t want government telling me what i can or cannot talk about. Talk about over reach and restrictions of my freedoms and liberties. I have no idea why lefties always want to censor things. I don’t get it.
it's not censoring them, it's simply holding them accountable for their choices. Many jobs have conduct and ethics codes. Nurses aren't allowed to talk about who they're shagging while administering medication.
Technically they can if they really want to, but they should not complain when they lose their job.
Wage transparency is what got us in this situation in the first place. People can't be trusted to act ethically when money is at stake. Keep it private.
Its absolutely censoring them. Cancel culture gone insane. “Don’t talk to your workmates or else”. That’s what you are calling for. It’s ludicrous government over reach. Exactly like when they said we couldn’t protest. Silencing the people is dangerous and I’m surprised that of all people you are siding with the lefties on censorship. What the hell is wrong with this world today. Have you turned into sbob or thithlord or quantumcat or something. Insane.
Taking away someone's livelyhood because of a discussion about pay, which is not comparable to medical information is blatant censorship.
It's not even a big deal, any company that thinks pay isn't being discussed under the table between employee's is kidding themselves.
@Zondor: Mate, every company has rules around discussing pay. It's an unspoken code of every workplace. I'm not saying people should be monitored and censored, but pay should not be publicly advertised to all employees. Keep it confidential.
You might also be shocked to hear that purchase contracts, settlements, or other forms of payment often also come with non-disclosure terms. It's not censorship. People have a right to privacy - and that right to privacy extends to employers and how much they pay their staff.
A job is a private contract between you and the employer. You might not care about confidentiality but they do, and they have a right to it.
Technologies should/will replace mundane work (yes, driving trains is one of them) so human can do more value/creative things. Australia train system is way more behind some countries and paying more wages and hiring more safe guards won't make us to catch up with other countries any faster, but driverless trains are. Be it 200mil dollar or more I'm in full support (of course whatever party can build it cheaper is preferable).
I don't know all the facts so it's hard for me to make a judgement but what I do want to know and gain a better understanding is;
1// Are the employees being paid fairly for their work? Public opinion seems to think so.
2// Are the conditions fair? Reports say it's understaffed and lots of overtime is available.
3// How do we know the new trains are unsafe?
4// Why does it matter where they are made? We should aim to get the best trains which suit out requirements and budget. If it happens those built overseas are better, it shouldn't be an issue.
This is about two sides battling it out for whatever they think os fair. Both sides are complying with the law. So it’s about who has the bigger balls tto stay the course.
Of course strikes are annoying. Thats the point.
Safety concerns can be found with a basic google search.
https://www.9news.com.au/national/transport-nsw-news-major-s…
TLDR the open train doors and poor weather heavily obstruct the cameras used to check that everyone is clear of the train before departing.
I just wondering couple of dozen of SoC and shit ton of sensors and redundant sensor around the train and AI could solve the problem right? Moving back and forth are easier than changing lane and predicting civic ricer right?
And about $40billion or more
They will make it back in no time right? No OT, no penalties, no super, train will be on time to the second
Let me see. $100 million per annum wage bill vs $40billion cost. Sure. A 40year ROI.
Good investment. Not.
@Awoke: For public facilities yes, if this is long, wait until you see power plant investment and return cost. That is initial cost, as time goes by newer tech that require even less maintenance, and economic of scale kick in, government subsidies, it will be different
@hunterhalo: So you want to spend $40Billion on a network that already exists instead of investing that on hospitals and schools and ambos just so you can beat some drivers over the head. No, not with my money. How insane is that.
@Awoke: Why rnd on new electric technology for e-vehicle when we can dug up dinosaurs and use it right? Why rnd and newer greener way of producing electricity when we can burn rock? You know??? But thats just my insanity cuz those thing are way more high risk investment cuz we have to literally create something new
@hunterhalo: No you misunderstand. I support gradual upgrade over a few decades. Absolutely technology should be used. I don’t support money being thrown at this instantly because “i dUn LiKe tHeMz dRiVeRz”
@Awoke: Ok fair enough, but from what people said in the topic, and from the spec of the train, i think union is kind of unreasonable right now, im sure there is a middle ground
@hunterhalo: I make no comments on reasonable or not. I don’t want my money blown on ideological warfare.
It’s a free market. They’ve complied with the law. They can strike. The government took them to court and lost. So no one is actually doing anything illegal.
Who dares wins, right?
After visiting family in Asia, I recall returning to Sydney last week and all the trains were delayed.
So frustrating, I say get migrants to Australia and let them do the job for half the price, hell train centrelink people with training and they'll do it all day with drug test.
I think city rail employees are ungrateful having a secured job, while doing nothing anyways(standing in particular area of the station avoiding the cam for social media) I think it's up to the NSW Wales government to employ police officers at stations from 9am-3pm/3pm-11pm on a 2 shift roster of over 7 days, rather the useless 24/7 random patrol for 30 minutes amongst 70,000 police force.
Even new York city employ police.
The strikes will likely continue for as long as they feel they can legally strike under a protected industrial action so they can get as much out of their new agreements as they can, happens with every union.
So its all legal? Good on em. This is exactly how a free market works. Dog eat dog, fight fire with fire. Winner takes all.
This is where the conflict of interest takes place, There's no free market for employers who are forced to implement union agreements by Labor governments, but if employers aren't happy they have a free market to go find another job. Fair work eliminates the need for a union, I'd much rather seem employment conditions negotiated for Australian workers as a whole rather than only for union members. Get rid of them
Your response is incomprehensible gibberish.
I don’t like labor or unions, but what labor government are you talking about? This all started under the liberals in feds and state. So that’s baffling from you.
The free market is exactly this. Businesses negotiating directly with staff. Staff got together and said, we don’t like your offer, we’re walking off the job until you improve it.
The boss can hire strike breakers or can come to an agreement.
You basically want the government to step in and say to one side ‘we don’t like you, so you can’t operate freely and we are banning you from striking’
That’s not free market. That’s government control.
Also, of course unions only look after their members. Imagine not having insurance, getting into a crash and complaining that nrma won’t fix your car - oh wait, this is OzBargain the land of no insurance and entitlement
@Awoke: It's not gibberish if you actually understand what the union is and if you had any first hand experience with them. This strike isn't started by a political arm, it was a decision made by "NSW Trains" which doesn't change employees every time one party is voted out. Only difference is that if it was a Labor government, they would force NSW Trains to make favorable decisions in accordance with the Union. This is because "state branches of the unions are affiliated to state branches of the ALP. Affiliated unions give financial support to the ALP".
When government services are privatised or government leases (such as leasing land for port operations to a publicly listed company) are given under a labor government they are forced by contract to implement Employee Bargaining Agreements under pre-existing union organisations. This is why the union pushes it's members to vote Labor. More members means more Labor votes, more Labor power means more union power. This is the only reason unions still get the light of days in modern Australia where we have Fair work. EBAs aren't a free market, they are political pressure whereby they say do business with the union or don't do business at all.
Also, of course unions only look after their members.
I'm not sure what you responding to here? Talk about gibberish. For someone who has repeatedly claimed to not like the union, a lot of your comments throughout this thread suspiciously seem to resonate with the union lunacy in their defense. Seems like a wolf in sheep's clothing if you ask me.
I'd much rather seem employment conditions negotiated for Australian workers as a whole rather than only for union members
I was responding to this gibberish. You essentially want wage fixing. Look that up.
No offence. But you do know that the labor party is the political arm of the union movement? That’s no secret.
But lets take out unions or government services.
Basically you are saying you want to ban workers from talking to each other and forming a combined committee to negotiate with their employer?
@Awoke: So you can't read the start of the sentence???
Fairwork eliminates the need for a union, I'd much rather see (maybe the typo confused you???) employment conditions negotiated for Australian workers as a whole rather than only for union members.
FAIRWORK
Which applies to all Australian employees??? You know how Labor government negotiated with fairwork to increase minimum wage? I'd rather see that then providing political pressure behind a business (because they all have ABNs) which is paid dues by members to gouge employers for excessive wages and ludicrous conditions.
No offence. But you do know that the labor party is the political arm of the union movement?
Yep, if you can figure out how to click the link it's all there buddy. Just thought you needed some context.
ban workers from talking to each other and forming a combined committee to negotiate with their employer
Anyone can do that without the union, you negotiate your salary and down the line you can negotiate or move on, and that's a free market. Being hamstrung by government contracts into only hiring on EBAs overseen by the union should be banned. But public opinion of the organisation is on the decline and they are slowly being pushed out of various sectors, so hopefully not long before they are a thing of the past.
@Juice-Wa: Just so I understand. So what you are saying is that you are ok for workers to get together as a group and negotiate with their bosses. You have no issues with that?
@Awoke: Something in me really thinks your inability to make the connection that 1+1=2 has you believing you've got a real gotcha and you're eagerly awaiting to hit that Post Comment button. Which will then having me bashing my head against a brick wall, wasting me time trying to spell out why your simplistic statement is uncontextualised nonsense.
But against my better judgement I'm intrigued as to what stupidity you have ready to spill out. So sure, no issues if you want to go negotiate together go for it.
@Juice-Wa: Nice. And if the boss says no. Then what should the workers be allowed to do and not allowed to do
@Awoke: Then they go get a job elsewhere if they're not happy. If the negotiation is reasonable another company would gladly take up the offer if the acquisition of their expertise makes it worthwhile, otherwise they aren't worth what they originally negotiated with their existing boss. That's how the majority who aren't under an EBA have to do things. As such, power for negotiation increases systematically, because your boss just lost out on a worker because he refused to give you what you were worth. Now he has to spend time and money on recruitment (where he has to go through further negotiations) and training, and will be more open to negotiations in the future to avoid a repeat. If your boss can't recognise what you are worth and come to the table then he's not worth working for in the first place. But if you over inflate your worth (like the union does of it's members) you'll quickly come back down to earth.
@Awoke: Nope, but if you strike it shouldn't be a protected action just because you didn't get what you want. You go on strike to show your boss what it is like without you, then you have to be willing to take the risk that they might just find someone else who would be happy to work there.
@Juice-Wa: What?
The law today allows the boss to lock out workers during negotiations and to hire replacements.
I’m guessing you have no idea about that.
@Awoke: Technically no, but there are some ways to get around it and results in certain redundancy entitlements, this is all protected and governed under fairwork.
Ideally if you negotiate, you should be protected from backlash if your boss isn't happy (which you actually already are) but if you retaliate to the rejection of negotiations, such as reducing capability or striking then you should be treated no different to someone who would be fired for not doing their job. "Generally, an employer must not terminate an employee’s employment unless they have given the employee written notice of the last day of employment.". which then has clauses for unfair or unjust dismissal. I hardly doubt walking off the job and not completing duties because you didn't get a pay rise can be argued in a tribunal though.
EBAs are incredibly controlling. Patricks Terminals wrote this:
“At present our operations are restricted by the MUA in terms of who we recruit, how we roster, who we promote and how we service our customers.
This is not about their members’ pay – this is all about the MUA wanting to maintain their stranglehold and control of the Australian waterfront.”. Eventually these companies will have enough of the union controlling their operations and will sack all their union members (similar to what Qantas did). The worker will have suffered because he just did what a greedy, power hungry organisation told him to.
@Juice-Wa: What the hell are you on about. Hello here’s a tangent.
Do you see anyone on OzBargain calling you an idiot?
@Awoke: Just because you're reading what you don't want to hear doesn't make it a tangent.
I'm sorry, am I debunking you simple view of the world?
@Juice-Wa: Its insane. Literally insane.
Today, and employer can actually lock out workers which is what you were demanding they be able to a few messages ago and then suddenly you start talking about other stuff because who knows why.
So literally all you are saying is enterprise agreements are bad.
@Awoke: Sure, if you want to put it in simple terms: EBAs bad, Unions generally bad.
If you want actual reasoning and context to why this is the case then actually bother read what I have written. Basically Fair Work has made Unions irrelevant and the unions have mutated from representing workers to representing greed and power hunger.
That sounds expensive.