I turned on the news for the first time in a while, and see that Sydney Train industrial action is still in progress.
Thankfully, it does not affect me, but I am having difficulty understanding what all of this is about.
The news does not seem to cover the relevant details such as what the train drivers are actually getting paid.
I was always of the impression, that train drivers get good money - anyone in the know able to make comment?
But going back to it, you think the bosses should be able to do what they want, but workers shouldnt be allowed to strike.
To which I respond:
Nah mate, you're protected by the fair work act.
Quote yourself: "Wow. Right. I’m not calling you stupid, but your comment is."
@Juice-Wa: Your comprehension is lacking.
I asked about what you think the arrangements should be. Not what it actually is.
Let me try again:
Do you think the bosses should be able to do what they want, but workers shouldnt be allowed to strike.
@Awoke: I think the fair work act should still apply, minus the ability to perform Protected Industrial Action.
There are legitimate safety issues though:
https://www.9news.com.au/national/transport-nsw-news-major-s…
The driver is unable to safely check that everyone is clear of the platform with the doors open or in poor weather.
Yeah, which was recognised through testing. You test to commission and fix recognised issues before running them in an official capacity. The union is striking from the result of initial testing, not what NSW Trains are actually running their services with. They jumped the gun before these issues were able to be fixed (that's part of normal commissioning) because they needed a reason to argue that they need more union members.
You're wrong. Stop spreading misinformation. Here's 2GB interview
In an explosive interview with Joe Hildebrand on Afternoons, Rail, Train and Bus Union (RTBU) Secretary Alex Claassens has revealed this week’s Sydney train strike could have been avoided.
Mr Claassens explained that the offer of $264 million to modify trains due to safety concerns was never provided to the unions in writing.
“All we want is a commitment to say that $264 million is there to fix the train, we’re happy to sign a deed tomorrow,” Mr Claassens said.
Because it is already a part of commissioning the trains in the first place…
This is a standard part of project work and fixing it is not an offer to the union, it's completing the project.
Please explain how you would provide a "commitment to say that $264 million is there to fix the train"? They are trying to get a revision on the EBA, that's how they get a commitment in writing. It's a ploy for an early EBA negotiations, typical union things.
They would not commit to the rectifications in writing.
Why would the Union trust one of the most corrupt State Governments in existence?
@ThithLord: It's part of the commissioning documents, the unions want a commitment directly to them which is done via an EBA.
It's not about trusting the government, the commissioning process is signed off by those who are actually qualified to do so (involving Engineers Australia chartered professional engineers).
From my experience with the union I wouldn't be surprised if the union told it's members not to report the issues during testing but rather share them with the union so they can make a public release.
@Juice-Wa: Yeah, no. Sorry mate.
The Unions literally rejected an an offer for a pay-rise because the NSW Transport Minister would not commit in writing to rectifying the obscene safety concerns regarding these trains.
David Elliott literally said that on 2GB radio and thought he walked away looking the bigger man. *"We also offered them, in lieu of those modifications, the cash … we said to the railways, you can all have a three thousand dollar bonus just to make sure that we operate these new trains in accordance with manufacturer's requirements"
You may as well come out and just say UNION THUG!!1!
@ThithLord: Rejected because it didn't match inflation… And it didn't address their real issue which is that they won't get an influx of new members with more new trains.
I know you don't understand how a project is run/managed, nor do you seem to want to understand. But they are striking on the initial tests of the trains, not allowing for identified issues to be rectified. They strategically released a public statement based on the very first day of testing.
We also offered them, in lieu of those modifications, the cash… operate these new trains in accordance with manufacturer's requirements
What I'm getting at is that it is already in writing by technically qualified personnel who understand much more than the union or the government, but the union refuses to accept it in a form that isn't an EBA renegotiation. Safety isn't the real issue peddled here, otherwise they would be working with the people who actually do the work and not trying to make this a public circus. Where are the engineers making statements about safety?
@Juice-Wa: You can find the entire process laid out here Sorry, Imma take the workers rights beholders more seriously than your project manager credentials.
- The Government is also telling you that the National Rail Regulator has deemed the NIF safe.
This is untrue. All the Rail Regulator does is ensure that rail operators follow the correct procedures. It does not determine whether any component of the trains, including how they are operated, are safe. And what they aren’t telling you is that we have a Federal Court ruling that says NSW Trains needs to work with us to make the trains safe for our members to operate that in turn makes you safe. But they haven’t done this, and that is why these trains are costing taxpayers money sitting in the sheds. The cost of the modifications if done three years ago would have cost taxpayers significantly less than they might now. The Government told the public in May that the cost would be $1 billion. By their own admission in the media now, this was a flat out lie.
We did not and will not accept blood money to operate unsafe trains; we want commuters, their families, and workers to be safe. Industrial action we have been forced to take is the only method we have left to ensure the safety of the travelling public. We’ve bargained in good faith, we’ve showed up to meetings, we’ve made our asks clear, we’ve tried to work together on this safety issue since 2016. We aren’t playing politics; we aren’t being unreasonable; we just don’t believe safety is for sale. The Government had the choice to turn off our industrial action, and they’re choosing not to. They’d rather put a price tag on your lives and the safety of the more vulnerable people in our community.
@ThithLord: I'm not a project manager, I'm an engineer… I actually understand the language they are trying to use to spin it their way.
While at face value it sounds reasonable, the whole post is about having an extra union member. They don't care about improvements, it's pretty clear that their solution to all the problems is to put another union member there. If they got an extra guard on those trains, they would forget all their issues. Also "We’ve bargained in good faith" which is exactly what I was saying, they want it written in their Employee Bargaining Agreement (plus more). You shouldn't be "bargaining" safety rectifications.
"They have also included in the proposal a clause that says they cannot commit to safety modifications that would void their contractual obligations and “design warranty” of the trains. This is a loophole they hoped we wouldn’t spot." So the proposal actually comes from the manufacturer to NSW Trains, it wasn't a "loophole they hoped we wouldn’t spot" the manufacturer added that as a clause to the government. And reasonably so, what do you know of that you can buy and then modify all whilst still leaving your warranty in tact? It just means that the manufacturer has to make the modifications as to not void the warranty.
The cost of the modifications if done three years ago would have cost taxpayers significantly less than they might now.
Ah yes, the old pull at the taxpayer wallet strings trick. If they had of known of the issues three years ago I'm sure they would have made the modifications. But they found the issues after… testing. WOW, who would have thought that they didn't get everything absolutely perfect. I'm telling you as someone who actually has extensive first hand experience with commissioning, this is pretty usual. A mistake, yes, the governments fault for not foreseeing specific technical issues before testing, no.
I'm a train guard at Sydney Trains if anybody has questions about pay, conditions etc.
User name checks out. Is that from sticking your neck out of a train instead of using cctv?
😂 just kidding. Cause chaos mate. Love seeing governments squirm.
Pre existing injury but looking out of a train all day certainly doesn't help. Cheers for the support mate.
So, what are the real issues here?
The safety concern with the NIF is certainly an issue but it is also trying to save jobs. Its more of an issue for intercity guards,it won't effect my job.
As much as the union doesnt like to mention it, pay increases are also a sticking point
Are safety concerns really warranted on trains? I don't imagine it's like planes where crashes need to be planned for. You would have to seriously display negligence to cause a major collision on the tracks. It's not like trains can flip over or lose control on a normal day. They glide on an empty track at like 70km/h.
@SlavOz: The safety concern is more to do with when the train is on the platform. The driver would be in charge of the doors and watching passengers. Currently this is the guards role.
@SoreNeck: It's been reported that the automation can easily mistake a child-sized body as not being a body at all.
@SoreNeck: Ram, Tram and Bus Union NSW Branch stated:
The New Intercity Fleet (the ones bought from South Korea to replace trains travelling from Sydney to Newcastle, Lithgow and Wollongong) is unsafe, particularly for our most vulnerable members of the community. An independent safety report into the NIF found that:
“there will be an unacceptable risk to the travelling public if the NSW Trains proposed operating model is implemented. Particularly to the most vulnerable of the travelling public, children and movement impaired passengers.”
@ThithLord: That quote and your previous statement don't line up, were you quoting something else or is that actually what you took from that statement?
@Willy Beamish: I was adding to my comment, not clarifying. My apologies.
I've posted the link to the Unions stance elsewhere in this thread
Why is it we can never hear the announcements clearly as a passenger?
On the newer sets ( waratah millennium oscar) it's all automated so you should be hearing it. On the older sets it would be a combination of aging equipment not working too well and some guards just not bothering.
Just get driverless trains
Or new people that would be happy to take over these jobs
They are very understaffed due to stress levels and burnouts . A lot of lives are in their hands, they come across all sorts of crime , violence and suicides, a lot of times with suicides they may even feel partially responsible. They are asked to work a lot of overtime hours / the hours arent good for a normal family life / social life. And they get paid a lot less than a lot of private sector jobs in australia.
So thats fine, if people feel they are overpaid and lucky to have that job, why dont these people then go and do these jobs instead of complaining they are getting overpaid. If they are so overpaid, and their jobs are so easy, there will be an influx of people wanting to work in the sector rather than them being short staffed. Sometimes its not so clear how "easy" a job is to do till you do it with all that it entails.
I see and know so many people in $200k+ jobs sometimes way higher salaries than that, complaining that train drivers are getting paid too much….and they have it so easy…Then go do their jobs…
Back in the day i used to think it sounded like a easy job and fun job and then i had a friend who was doing it and after several years, i noticed how crazy this person's life was with the hours they worked and the shift work / timing of their work and how it was difficult to fit into their family life. And then theres all the things and stresses that come with being responsible for all those lives.
Then there's nothing for them to strike for since they will supposedly have some available members to train after the guards wont be needed :) As much as they complain, they are happy to work the hours for the pay. Refusal of extensive overtime is possible due to union protection but majority of them want the money from working excessive hours.
Actually a lot of them feel obligated to help out and like the extra pay but would rather not have to work that many hours. All well and good to say you can say no thanks but when your manager is asking for help to cover shifts and you dont help out..good luck getting more shifts.
Not sure what your first statement is.
And you havent covered all the other issues.
So they want extra shifts but not too many extra shifts???
Do they not have a base salary with base hours? So because they want extra shifts there's no want/need to employ anyone else because they all want the extra time?
@Juice-Wa: umm why is it you seem to be putting your spin into it? You still havent addressed all the other issues but seem stuck on extra shifts. Well I never said they WANT extra shifts. I said its not on offer but its basically required for the trains to run. So someone has to step up and say yes i will do this and another step up and say i will do that.
If no-one does those shifts, the trains dont run which has happened at times and hence cancellations / delays. But at the same time management will look down upon staff not "willing" to help out the team to make things run. Anyone who has worked will know what thats like. Its not so easy as an individual to just say " No I dont want to do that" time and time again. Because basically you will not be looked upon well by management as they feel this is required to continue running things.
I miss when it was called City Rail, so we could call it City Fail :(
Pretty sure it was Shitty Rail back in those days too.
The unions are the voice of everyday Australians
I think the strike should get bigger and longer until the people are heard properly
We cannot be held ransom by a minority of the rich and white collar elites
I think this doesn't help the issue if the general population only has news outlets to go by. So far do you think that news websites have been unbiased with reporting? If they made the strikes bigger, the headlines will get bigger "unions holding sydney ransom" plastered everywhere. If even these morning sunrise hosts etc don't know the correct facts of why the strikes are continuing and that's their damn job for knowing facts, then you have no hope of the general population sympathising or understanding.
Suppose the trains just went out, and the issue of safety comes true and someone is seriously hurt or died because they were caught somewhere and the driver couldn't see, then the population will point to the train drivers still, the government will step in and go this is unacceptable, we need to have a full blown inquiry into this incident and make sure our drivers have better training, blah blah.
The population is fooled by these politicians and their media mates puling the strings.
When these issues came up earlier on ,I noticed a lot of media was not reporting the full story and blaming the drivers and not reporting how the politicians actually decided to have the stoppage rather than what the drivers had proposed.
Is this just another "Are train staff "really" underpaid" thread in disguise?
frysquinting.gif
driverless train. current metro line is brilliant. driverless network has been used in high density populate asian cities for decades and successful. e.g. HK metro, tier 1,2 china mega cities
maybe too difficult here with all these political smugs around
When I was in Dubai, all the trains were driver-less and were packed but I never saw a single kid get taken out by the doors.
Yeah but these systems are fairly new and built for purpose, the network in Sydney is old school.
True, but they are complaining about the new trains, I hope they are built for purpose. But I suppose it is a government project, so we are all being hopeful here.
suggestion - can you strike in mornings but keep evening trains
the delay in getting to work will affect productivity and cost economy - industries/businesses will put pressure on the govt.
delaying people from getting home is only going to piss off the public and turn public opinion against you
i would have thought this would have been obvious from the start
I’m not involved or an expert, but I think it is very tricky to run part timetables - the trains are in the wrong places when the interrupted timetable is to be commenced, the crews aren’t with the trains and it is really hard to marry it all up, considering the end to end journey can be 100km or more.
More reason to work from home. No idea why people are back to being crush loaded on trains for a daily migration so they can all work under observation like covid never happened.
So many examplea of GoA 4 trains in the world
Time to get with it Aus. sydney has started with the metro.
people are complaining about Australia outsourcing, but then also about locally produced trains in favor of imported
also complaining about high prices, and then immediately about high wages
strike is not a good thing of course - but I guess all other options were exhausted? also shows our collective capacity to deal with each other and disagreements..
I can read comments of employees here, not focusing on what's best for the community but their own interests.
Is there a way to work for city rail but not be part of a union, because I suspect the reason the union exists is the same reason some people hold onto a job longer and the reason getting into that sectors harder.
Union members are community members .
What's the actual effect of these strikes anyway? I'm still getting a service every 5-10 minutes, with peak hour trains still running fairly smoothly.
If anything it seems faster to me recently. If this how things operate while the workers are on strike, I vote for them to keep protesting.
@Juice-Wa: But going back to it, you think the bosses should be able to do what they want, but workers shouldnt be allowed to strike. That’s basically it, isn’t it?
My friend, thats not the free market you think it is.
Have you looked up wage fixing yet? That was another one of your wonderful ideas.