Okay, today I received my penalty notice of Double Parking and have to pay $283. As per the photo, council was driving car opposite me and took photo for me to appear I was really double parked. As per the photo attached, obviously i have my left indicator on as the gray car’s driver came in and about to move so I waited for his spot.
Edit: i was inside the car
Should I:
Edited. And Yes I am.
And to save everyone scrolling for the nugget of the thread:
OP was waiting in that spot for (at least) 2 minutes.
Can't tell if you're in the car or not from the pic provided. However, you can elect to have your fine heard in court, and argue your case to the magistrate - telling them that you were in your car waiting for the silver Camry to move out (can't tell if there is a driver in the Camry either).
I love how the "Load full resolution" button is sitting exactly over the part of the photo that we care about (whether or not you're in the car)
Hmmmm have you tried tapping it? 🤷🏽♂️
I didn't see that button over the face - and a skin-coloured patch where the driver's face would be suggests that they were in the driver's seat at the time
if so I would understand it to be 'standing' not 'parking'
however - just now I arksed Go(oogle)d - and it appears that in NSW
'A driver must not stop on a road if to do so would put any part of the vehicle that he or she is driving between a vehicle that is parked on the road and the centre of the road' - http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/rr2014104…
'You must not stop or park your vehicle: alongside another parked vehicle (double park)' - https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/roads-s…
https://www.driverknowledgetests.com/learners-permit-questio…
so - in short - surprisingly, as many folks do this all the time - it would look like the OP is double farqued
@Hangryuman: Yes, in this case the stop time time was excessive, but if you take it to the extreme, then 'You must not stop or park your vehicle: alongside another parked vehicle (double park)' means reversing into a parking spot is illegal.
It can even mean being stuck in traffic is illegal - and yes, I know of at least one case where someone got a fine for that!
Obviously there is some wiggle room.
The indicator is clearly lit even in the low rez photo.
Lucky your blinker happened to be flashing at the moment of the photo. You should be fine to fight it (not that I have any experience of fighting a fine).
I wouldn't think the indicator matters. I've seen people put the indicator on to "run inside for a minute" and leave the car empty. That would still be double parked.
Personally I can't tell from the photo whether someone is in the drivers seat or not, but the answer is if he was in the car he should not be fined.
Oh yeah fair enough. I guess it is just a tiny bit of extra evidence to help OP but doesn't prove anything on its own.
Write back to the council, tell them that what they're putting down is utterly inconclusive and that they should withdraw the infringement notice, with a further line saying that if they're not amenable to your suggestion if they would so kindly send over their brief because your next correspondence will be in front of a magistrate.
OP, I sympathise, but its double parking if you stop or park alongside another parked vehicle. You appear to be stopped alongside another parked vehicle. So you were double parking. The image, taken from the other side of the street clearly shows you were blocking the flow of traffic on your side of the street. I wouldn't waste my time fighting it.
https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/roads-s…
There are drivers who think that as soon as they see that a parked vehicle might be going, like someone is getting into the drivers seat, they stop just behind it and wait so they can get that parking spot. Most of us would think that's fair enough, until someone comes up behind them and can't get past because they are blocking the road. Whatever we think, the law says you are double parking as soon as you stop, That if the parked vehicle isn't pulling out you can't stop and wait. So take your chance that you'll get a sympathetic magistrate if you want, but council parking rangers know what the law is, and they know what they can get a booking for that stands up.
Isn't OP standing rather than stopping/stopped if he is still in the car with the engine running?
There used to be a distinction between no stopping and no standing. You could stop somewhere you were not allowed to stand for the time it took passengers to exit or enter the vehicle. Once they had done so, if you remained stopped you were standing, and were breaking the law.
No stopping was the more strict rule. You could not remain stationary unless the traffic, traffic lights, a police instruction, or something else similar prevented you from moving.
In this case the rule against double parking prevents you from stopping next to a parked vehicle.
I understand that to make it clearer, the law now distinguishes between "stopping" and "parking". Those are terms whose meaning is perhaps a little more clear and obvious.
OP, I sympathise, but its double parking if you stop or park alongside another parked vehicle.
Is that why people leave such massive gaps between themselves and the car in front at traffic lights? Enough to fit a bus or two in the gap. They don't wanna get booked for double parking next to parked cars.
/s
Neg Voted by 1 user
Found the silly sod who leaves a 2 bus long gap between the car infront of them. You may shred your license now.
They're multiplying!
@Kangal: And I bet they won't even come here to comment and say that I'm wrong. If I was such a bad driver I wouldn't want to admit it.
This hurts but 'GordonD' is correct. The parking people are ass hats - just pay and move on.
obviously i have my left indicator on as the gray car’s driver came in and about to move so I waited for his spot.
How long did you wait for the car to move? The council officer would have sighted you from a distance not moving as they drove towards you.
Having your indicator on isn't a get out of the fine, many people double park with it on. The rules are pretty clear
https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/roads-s…
You must not stop or park your vehicle: alongside another parked vehicle (double park)
So yes while a normal person would say this is acceptable to stop for a minute while waiting for the space to clear (and I agree), the rules are black/white. Stopping aka double parking while waiting for someone to exit the space, is technically a no no in NSW. You just got unlucky they had been driving by at that moment.
Do any of the photos taken show the driver in the car you had been waiting for?
The issue I see, is the driver just got in the car when you stopped. So your 'waiting' had been a long time which means you had been double parked with no signs of a car moving based on the photos you provided (no lights on, no indicator or wheels turned etc)
TL;DR All that said, write to the council, explain what you had been doing and you had been unaware that any stopping like that woudl be double parking but now you knowl you won't do it again, see if they are having a nice day and will let you off with a warning.
I was with you to fight the ticket, until you said you were there for that long…..Sorry, pay up.
Yeah sorry but 2+ mins is a long time to be 'waiting' for someone to pull out of a car spot while blocking traffic. They clearly hadn't been 'ready' to leave when you pulled up.
So the council didn't instantly fine you, they gave you a 2 min grace window to park/move.
2 minutes is ludicrous, man. Surely after 30 or so seconds (or when other cars started piling up behind you) you'd cut your losses and drive on, optionally giving the parked slowpoke a one-finger salute and some choice words through the window as you rolled on out of there?
lol man, two minutes? no way you're getting out of this fine.
2 minutes. that's double parked. pay the fine.
Wait, what? You were there for 2 whole minutes waiting for a car to pull out? If there were cars behind you waiting or they were pulling into the opposite traffic lane to overtake your stationery vehicle you should be fined.
You really need to update the misleading title.
I was like go for it man, fight the bastards….. until I read the 2 minute detail.
Pay up, learn that what you did is both illegal and disrespectful and don't do it again.
/thread
As per the two photos sent by them
I believe that the first photo was taken by the council officer after observing that you were stationary for longer than expected and then started taking those pictures. There is a very good possibility that you were there for much longer than two minutes.
I have no doubt that you were double parking with indicators on.
As others have said, update the description please. The fact you waited upwards of 2 minutes is pretty significant.
I always thought this kind of behaviour was just poor form, now I know it is also a double parking offence.
I see the key detail (truth) got in the way of a good story again
If I were you, I would write to council appealing this. And if they disagree, escalate it somehow. Just look at their website or call them to ask what the process is.
Sydney councils really are trying to scrape the bottom of the barrel for more money it seems.
Anytime anyone gets a fine, if you don’t think it’s fair, just write a letter to whoever has fined you and explain why you think you should be let off.
And if they disagree, escalate it somehow
But your Honour, my blinker was on. Surely rules don't apply then!
Councils don't set the rules and double parking rules are pretty clear. OP was also blocking the lane for an unknown amount of time while stopped aka double parked.
Fair enough, I didn’t realise waiting for someone to leave their parallel spot is considered to be double parking.
Seems like a poor rule that you can’t sit there waiting for someone to leave their spot (unless of course it’s going to take that person a while to leave, e.g. they’re loading their boot or get in their car and end up sitting in it waiting for someone to get back).
Fair enough, I didn’t realise waiting for someone to leave their parallel spot is considered to be double parking.
based on the rules here, yes
https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/roads-s…
Seems like a poor rule that you can’t sit there waiting for someone to leave their spot
I think it 'depends' on how long you waited really. In the case of the OP, they said the photos are 2 mins apart showing they haven't moved. Its fair to say it was way longer than that. So it wasn't a case of the council just instantly fining them. They give you 2 mins, any longer and it seems it is classed as double parking.
So I would call it double parking. They had been blocking the lane while waiting, 2+ mins is a long time to wait for someone who clearly wasn't about to leave when they pulled up.
Why? If everybody just operated off the principle that a parking spot is yours if it's empty, rather than its yours if someone is about to leave, traffic would flow so much better.
Particularly in car parks where this double parking can jam the whole car park for no reason.
No Parking
You must not stop or park your vehicle:
alongside another parked vehicle (double park)
https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/roads-s…
So if there was a person on the road in front of OP, he would be obligated to hit them because to not hit them he would need to stop alongside another parked vehicle (double park)?
I'm not saying that's a reasonable argument, but the rule while is seemingly written as black and white, there will be exceptions to it. The question is, is waiting for a car to vacate another park considered an appropriate exception?
So if there was a person on the road in front of OP, he would be obligated to hit them because to not hit them he would need to stop alongside another parked vehicle (double park)?
You would stop like a normal person. The person in front is doing the double parking not you, you are just 'waiting' for the traffic to clear
You can always stop anywhere to avoid an accident.
So if you’re driving along a road with parallel parking spots, and there’s someone getting into their car to leave, you can’t wait because that’s considered to be double parking?
Seems a bit silly to me, but if that’s the rule then I stand corrected and OP shouldn’t fight it then.
I see people stopping quite often to wait for a parallel spot in areas in Sydney.
So to avoid this you basically can only enter a parallel parking spot if it’s completely free?
So if you are waiting for a parking spot, it should be ok to do the old trick with a manual car of rolling forward and then rolling back because technically you haven't stopped?
Ahahahaha i think this should be the behaviour now.
The rolling back part may get you fined.
You have stopped for a brief moment at the transition between rolling forward & rolling backwards. This was argued in court a few years ago successfully for someone who was fined for not stopping at a stop sign but was witnessed to have rolled backwards, I believe.
@bcarp: That would mean you cannot legally ever reverse park into a car spot because as soon as you stop the car alongside another car to place the gear into reverse, you have double parked.
@Transient: No cause you stopped to park, hopefully after indicating. If you stopped to reverse and sat there for a while then you would be double parked.
@jerrus: But that means what @bcarp said about stopping for a brief moment is not correct? We are talking about stopping for a fraction of a second = double parking as you have stopped beside a car.
Edit:
189 Double parking
(1) A driver must not stop on a road if to do so would put any part of the vehicle that he or she is driving between a vehicle that is parked on the road and the centre of the road.
Maximum penalty—20 penalty units.
Does not say anything about stopping "to park". Just says "must not stop".
Edit: seems there is an exclusion in the definition of "stop"
stop, in Part 12 and for a driver, includes park, but does not include stop to reverse the driver’s vehicle into a parking bay or other parking space.
So stopping to reverse park = ok
How long were you waiting for the other car to move?
I have noticed a propensity for some ignorant people sit in the car playing with their phones instead of driving off so someone else can have the spot.
A lot of people work on their phones, how do you know they are being ignorant and not just completing tasks before driving to next appointment?
Same way you know they are.
I don't know why you were downvoted for asking an important question. You turned out to be correct. He was waiting for over 2 minutes.
Its not even on a highway, nor high traffic road and was a cul-de-sac street.
My question now is, how do we wait then if someone is about to leave the parking spot?
Damn man, this happens 24/7 every single minute at Leichardth Norton street where the shop and day care is.
O well.
How do you wait for someone to leave a parking spot?
You don't if doing so obstructs other traffic. You keep moving until you find a parking spot that doesn't require stopping and waiting for the parked vehicle in it to move. The parked vehicle has to already be in the process of moving out of it, or the parking spot has to be empty.
Yes, heaps of people do it, and most probably get away with it, just like heaps of people speed a little bit, run amber lights when they could stop, park too close to driveways and corners and other cars, etc.
Doesn't eliminate the risk of being caught.
Lots of people do it but honestly I hate it. Couple times I've got in my car not intending to move immediately (packing/unpacking or setting up navigation) and had someone honk at me to hurry up because they were blocking traffic waiting for me to leave.
It's just entitlement, what gives you the right to hold people up just so someone else doesn't get the spot? Drive down the road, turn around, and if the space is still there then you can take it without blocking the road.
Deserved fine IMO, especially if you blocked the road for two whole minutes.
not intending to move immediately (packing/unpacking or setting up navigation) and had someone honk at me to hurry up because they were blocking traffic waiting for me to leave.
You could motion to them that you're not leaving… And if they've already honked you and you're close to leaving, motion to them that you're not leaving anyway and then proceed to leave immediately after they drive away, ideally so they see you do so.
I wish all drivers do that, quite often I witnessed a car wait for the parked car to move out, building up traffic on the road.
Problem is there are places in Sydney and others cities where you'll just never be able to find a park if you have to find one that is already empty cause everyone else will be queuing for it before the driver has even started the car.
Damn man, this happens 24/7 every single minute at Leichardth Norton street where the shop and day care is.
Complain to the council. They've proven their willingness to enforce it, so why not make the streets safer now you know?
Hogben St is intersected by Bank Lane. Is that still considered a cul-de-sac?
The sign says "No through road to Princes Highway" but it's not a dead end street.
Whatever you want to call it, I would think that a street leading to a hospital carpark would have fairly regular traffic. Stop trying to make it sound like some quiet residential street.
You’re double parked. End of story
Lol, waiting for someone to leave for a carpark spot. Okay.
LOL people have posted the rules, there is nothing in them saying you can stop, block traffic for 2+ minutes waiting for someone to leave a car spot.
In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups. The 👮♀️ magistrates who investigate double parking crimes and the grey bombers who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories.
100% would watch.
Does the atto 3 have auto parallel and reverse parking feature?
DUN DUN!
Councils getting lazy
Take it to court.
Don't they personally have to come and put the ticket on your car though?
Councils getting lazy
OP posted above the council provided them 2 pictures, 2 minutes apart. Which is double parking by the law.
Lol
Just read that
Convenient little piece of information to leave out.
Ok OP is in the wrong and needs to pay up
Don't they personally have to come and put the ticket on your car though?
Not if they couldn’t find a car park, or would have had to double park to get out of their car.
$283 is such a bargain! Imagine you were in Germany and you would have to fork out a massive 30 Euros fur such a horrendous crime!
Flights to Germany are a bit expensive at the moment
Scoot has fares from the Gold Coast to Berlin for $600 to 700. Hard to get back and they are running out of gas…
2 minutes clogging up a roadway is double parking no matter which way you look at it.
To be completely fair, how are you suppose to know how long someone will sit in the spot for after getting in the car?
Most the Chinese communities in Sydney are notorious for this, haha. Like literally know you're waiting but don't give a s*** and just continue to sit in their car without even showing you any indication that they are going to go or not go. It's like the classic, 'just don't make eye contact' and you'll get away with it, lol.
And then there are those with Prams that literally take 5+ minutes to pack their prams up before going. You're suggesting he can't wait for those with a 2 minute timeframe?
I think the only appropriate time to wait, if traffic is being held up, is after a person is actually in their car with the engine on and indicating to leave the spot. You don't know if they're leaving until they indicate to say they are.
It's not nice when I'm trying to safely buckle up my kids (and yes, taking longer to fold the pram) and someone stares me down while they're waiting for my spot. I need to make sure my kids are safely tied in. Fold the pram. Maybe set the GPS. Maybe settle the kids, get their water bottles. Maybe get the carpark ticket out of my bag. I shouldn't be pressured to race out of there just because some person is holding up traffic while I wasn't ready to leave.
@jolee3: When I see someone waiting for my spot in a car park and I need to buckle up 2 kids + pram in the boot + shopping I basically wave to them, point to the kids, and put a "five" sign and mouth "five minutes", some will still stay depending on the scarcity of spots, but at least I have warned them.
Seriously?
Nobody's suggesting - we're stating (what should be) the obvious.
Okay, I will be paying this fine to contribute to the welfare of people on Centrelink
Centrelink is like ~88% funded by the federal government and ~12% by the state/territory government. You're just lining the pockets of the local council 😉
Meh just fight it first. Last resort is paying it.
I mean, devils advocate here…. Some people take their sweet time getting out.
I had a guy nod to me he's going, after putting away his groceries in his car, getting his sweet time getting out, it took like 3 mins. But it was a good spot lol.
once i got to my friends car in a parking lot and was showing my friend the way home on the refidex. a lady then hurled abuse at us because she was waiting for the spot. plenty of other parks around; she just wanted to park close to the entrance. there's no need for abuse.
Abuse is never accepted but you never know why she needs to park close to the entrance, could be entitlement, could be that she is injured. Who knows…..
But it really depends on the location, if it's a busy area and finding a car spot is hard then waiting 2 minutes or waiting for someone to get out and take their sweet time is worth it.
Even in shopping centres, people will just wait in the lane for 5+ minutes instead of driving around, even worse in weekends. For example, someone may want to park next to woolworths entrance and wait for a good parking spot instead of walking 10+ minutes from the other side and carrying all those groceries back.
IMO, 2 minutes is nothing compared to what others wait for. I do understand it's a public road, but if the person is going, the person is going.
Would it be different if the person going is loading in their pram and the person is waiting for that spot?
@hasher22: Happy for people to wait. No need to abuse anyone for any reason. We're all in the same boat.
I wouldnt have patience for 2 minutes, but when i stop to wait for a car to drive out and they farkel with babyseats and keys and walking frames and a car comes up behind me I isually just give it a miss and go. Plus if i drove up to a car blocking the street, waiting for a park, I'd beep the horn after 20 seconds, and normally the offender gives up waiting. To me a really annoying situation is when someone cant reverse park and is persevering for 3 minutes whilst i am blocking the road for others as well, trying to be patient.
Raise your complaint at the next council meeting. It won't get your problem resolved, but it might at least inconvenience the councillors and the executive team.
scumbag revenue raising all it is, gotta meet those quotas of fake infringements.
He was stopped more than 2 mins blocking road. It
Seems open and shut case and a well deserved ticket.
Watch it get overturned when someone with a brain actually handles the case.
We'll see how "open and shut" and "well deserved" it is then.
spotted a flower power Accord Euro
Yea take it to court.
If you're telling the truth then you'll get off the fine
But If it turns out you're telling fibs and they have multiple pictures timestamped showing you sitting there for longer and no evidence of the other car leaving then you can look forward to paying court fees.
Are you in your vehicle?