Rewards Credit Card Deducted My Points Because I Refunded

justwii on 24/09/2022 - 18:31
Last edited 25/09/2022 - 09:18 by 1 other user

I was baffled that recently I noticed my points earned were less than expected in my latest statement.

I called CS and they said because I refunded so they reversed some of the points that I earned. But I explained to them that I didn't use their CC to purchase those items that I refunded, I actually used another CC to purchase them but that card was cancelled later on, so I refunded into their CC. But they blame it is just how the system works and not going to give me back my points.

What's your experience on this? Should I get my points back?

Thank you

Financial Credit Card

Comments

  • askbargain on 24/09/2022 - 18:36
    +6

    No, how do you think they earn money?

    • justwii on 24/09/2022 - 18:59
      -6

      What is justice in front of earning money?

      • askbargain on 24/09/2022 - 19:05
        +4

        They pay back fees when you make a refund. How do you expect they pay you in points?

        Refund to a debit card in future.

        You already gained points by using the first credit card. The fact that you lack the logic to understand this situation means you need better financial literacy.

        • justwii on 24/09/2022 - 19:15
          -7

          Red herring here? You're describing a different case than mine. For 1, not getting points when refunding purchases on the same credit card makes sense, but thats not my case. 2, the CC I used to purchase was not a rewards CC, so there was no point for me. Learn to read.

    • Tech5 on 25/09/2022 - 00:03
      +3

      I'm not sure if you read the post?

      The original purchase was not on this particular credit card. They never earnt any money on the transaction or gave any points to OP to begin with.

      • askbargain on 25/09/2022 - 00:08
        +1

        When you buy something, you might pay a surcharge. That surcharge is paid to the card issuer, who may give you points in exchange for using their card.

        When you refund something, you get a refund on the surcharge too. Most places don’t have surcharge but imagine if they did. Now the card issuer has to pay back the merchant the surcharge for the refund. That is why you’re suppose to use the same card when refunding items. When the card issuer pays back the surcharge, how do they fund your points?

        • cookie2 on 25/09/2022 - 15:52

          So you did read the post?

    • HeWhoKnows on 25/09/2022 - 21:07

      As they say - thats how the system works
      We dont have any jurisdiction over your credit card here

  • AndyC1 on 24/09/2022 - 18:43
    +4

    Make a formal complaint to the CC issuer.

      • askbargain on 24/09/2022 - 19:08
        +13

        but enough effort to make a fool of yourself

      • AndyC1 on 24/09/2022 - 19:25

        It's costs the bank to make a refund, so they need to get the money from the lazy user.

      • Roddi on 24/09/2022 - 23:35

        Fair enough if it's too much effort for you to chase up.
        But that's what the bank has told you too - it's too much effort to refund as the system doesn't support it.
        Are the points worth big $ … or has the bank just p'ssed you off?
        If it's the latter, you'll be better off letting this go and getting on with your life.

  • PissLUR on 24/09/2022 - 18:43

    System fault.

    • justwii on 24/09/2022 - 19:00
      -2

      Apparently

  • markathome on 24/09/2022 - 18:58
    +1

    How many points are we talking about here?

    • justwii on 24/09/2022 - 19:01
      -2

      Few thousands

  • WookieMonster on 24/09/2022 - 19:36
    +14

    This seems to be standard practice, as outlined in (for example):

    This is also happened to me in the real world too. I once purchased an item from BIG W, splitting payment between my AMEX and a BIG W gift card. However, when I returned the item a few months later due to it being faulty, the staff member refunded the full amount to my AMEX. Although I pointed out that I paid partially from a gift card and the amount paid for with a gift card should be refunded back to a gift card, the staff member said “doesn’t matter, you’ll have the full refund put back onto your AMEX”. I checked my statement later and saw that my Qantas points balance on my AMEX was decreased based on the refund amount.

    If you think about it, it makes sense for credit card issuers to adjust points balances for refunds, regardless of whether you originally made the purchase on the credit card. If they did not do that, some people would make transactions on a given credit card purely to earn points, then obtain a refund later to ensure they are ultimately not out of pocket for a transaction they did not want to actually make in the first place.

    Flybuys also reverses standard points if you earn points from a purchase where you scanned your Flybuys card, then obtain a refund later on for whatever reason through a receipt-based refund. (This is at least what Coles does.)

    If you are wondering what I think, I think you are not entitled to a reversal of the points reversal, but you can always try your luck for a goodwill gesture from your credit card issuer.

    • askbargain on 24/09/2022 - 19:42
      +3

      I would argue that getting money back over gift card (hopefully discounted) is worth the whatever points lost.

      • WookieMonster on 24/09/2022 - 19:46

        True, particularly since the gift card was discounted in the first place. I may have been deducted 20 Qantas points, but I “gained” $1 by having the gift card amount no longer locked onto a BIG W gift card. I obviously didn’t actually think about it that way until after I got home!

    • justwii on 24/09/2022 - 21:02
      -2

      Kudos to your effort. But all your references are for the situation the transaction happened on the same credit card (feel free to correct me), and I totally agree that case.

      Mine is like some totally unrelated extra money goes in to my CC and I am being punished (losing points) because of that. And my CC I used to purchase was not a rewards CC, so I am at the loss at the end.

      • askbargain on 24/09/2022 - 21:39

        i buy something from officeworks sydney, very good product i say, but then something happened, i go to officeworks melbourne, they return, but they want the product? i say, i buy from sydney, if i return to sydney, i return product, but this, this officeworks melbourne, why i return product?

        • Hardlyworkin on 24/09/2022 - 22:09
          +1

          You return product because something happened.

      • WookieMonster on 24/09/2022 - 23:13
        +5

        But all your references are for the situation the transaction happened on the same credit card (feel free to correct me)

        I had another look at each of the examples I provided earlier, and I only sort of agree with you.

        Credit Card Program Original Text My Interpretation
        Qantas / AMEX When the Basic Card Member or an Additional Card Member obtains a refund or reimbursement for items purchased on the Card or an Additional Card as applicable, a credit is posted to the Card Account in the amount of the refund or reimbursement. This credit will reduce the Accrued Points to reflect the refund or reimbursement. The clause only specifically references a refund for a transaction that originally took place on the card, so that would technically not cover your situation.
        Westpac Altitude Rewards You earn Points for each transaction on your Card Account unless the transaction is ineligible for a reason set out in Clause 3.2. Points will be deducted when a transaction is refunded or reversed. The bolded portion of this clause implicitly covers any transaction where the refund or reversal is processed onto a Westpac credit card with a rewards program tied to it, not just transactions that originally took place on a Westpac credit card with a rewards program tied to it.
        Citibank Rewards When you obtain a refund or reimbursement for an Eligible Transaction that you earned Points on (e.g. from returning goods or services or a disputed transaction) (Reversed Transaction) the total number of Points you earned for the Reversed Transaction will be deducted from the total number of Points you actually received and would have received (e.g. points not earned due to the maximum spend limits being reached) for Eligible Transactions during the Statement Period in which the Reversed Transaction was posted. The clause only specifically references a refund for a transaction that originally took place on the card, so that would technically not cover your situation.
        CommBank Awards Program Your Points balance will also be adjusted when you get a refund or reimbursement to your Card Account (for example, for returned goods or services, Card fraud, or theft). We will adjust your Points balance retrospectively for refunds and reimbursements by deducting the number of Points you previously earned for that transaction. If we cannot pinpoint the exact transaction being reversed in your transaction listing, we will deduct the number of Points from your Points Balance, which can currently be earned for that transaction. CommBank is extremely clear in that any refund or reversal processed onto a CommBank credit card tied to the Awards Program will cause you lose points.
        ANZ Rewards When you, or an additional cardholder, obtain a refund, a reimbursement for charges previously incurred (for example for returned merchandise) or a chargeback is made to your card account, this will cause Reward Points to be deducted from your Points Record. The terms does not state that the previously incurred charge must have been made on the ANZ credit card tied to ANZ Rewards, so you will therefore lose points.
        NAB Rewards We will reduce your Points Balance where… there is a refund or reimbursement for a transaction previously charged to your Rewards Card Account and a credit is processed to the same Rewards Card Account. This may happen for a number of reasons but usually for returned goods or services; The clause only specifically references a refund for a transaction that originally took place on the card, so that would technically not cover your situation.
        Coles Mastercard Rewards If You or an Additional Cardholder receives a refund or reimbursement (for example returned goods or services), … the Flybuys Points relating to that reversal will be deducted from Your Flybuys Membership Account. Coles makes it quite clear that any refund or reimbursement processed onto an applicable credit card will have the relevant number of Flybuys points deducted from the associated Flybuys account.

        My suggestion is for you to read the terms and conditions of the rewards program tied to the credit card where the points have been reversed, as it will either spell out that you will only lose points for refunds on transactions that originally took place on that card (e.g. Qantas/AMEX) or for any transaction (e.g. CommBank Awards Program). You have not actually told us the name of the credit card rewards program connected with your current credit card, so I will leave it up to you to refer to the relevant terms and conditions.

        I suspect that Qantas/AMEX, Citibank and NAB Rewards have written their points reversal clauses to only refer to transactions that originated from the card, because that is generally in line with the scheme rules for various card networks. For example:

        • AMEX (clause 2.5.1.2a) requires a refund for a transaction that took place on an AMEX card to go back to the same AMEX card unless the card in the original transaction was an AMEX prepaid card (which are not sold in Australia), or the transaction was originally a gift and the gift recipient is the person seeking a refund.

        • Mastercard (clause 3.14) state that any refund is to go back to the same card used for the transaction, or a card reissued by the same issuer to the same cardholder (and I suspect the latter is intended to cover the case of a card being reissued due to the original card being lost, or stolen, or randomly incurring unrecognised charges as a result of a BIN attack). However, Mastercard does also state that the refund can be processed at the discretion of the merchant if the original card is not available or the original card does not accept the refund for whatever reason.

        • Visa (clause 1.5.4.15 takes a similar stance when compared with Mastercard, so I won’t repeat myself.

        Some extra thoughts that I also want to point out:

        • Usually, if you have a refund processed to a credit card that has been closed, the credit card issuer for that closed credit card will mail you a cheque for the refund amount. (That happened to me once, but that was quite a while ago.) However, for transactions originally paid for with prepaid gift cards, you do not want to do this, as a prepaid gift card issuer will keep any refund amount processed to a prepaid gift card that has been cancelled or has expired.

        • Your argument that your original purchase was on a credit card with no rewards scheme attached is largely irrelevant. A credit card issuer will not care whether you actually earned any points or rewards for the original transaction, especially if this was through a credit card from a different card issuer. They only care about the fact that a refund has landed on your current credit card.

        • If I have a merchant agree to a refund and they do not seek to verify that I have the card originally used for the transaction (or I explain the original card is no longer available and the merchant agrees to refund the amount to another card), I usually use a debit card to accept the refund to avoid the situation you have found yourself in.

        • In terms of next steps for you, if you feel confident the points reversal is not in accordance with the applicable reward program terms and conditions, raise a formal complaint directly with the credit card issuer. If you are dissatisfied with their response, raise a complaint through AFCA (assuming they are a member organisation of AFCA, which I would like to think they are).

        • justwii on 25/09/2022 - 00:17
          -1

          Kudos again. I understand that the T&C is the law on this matter. However, I am interested to know how you could interpret, for example Points will be deducted when a transaction is refunded or reversed. to cover transactions from another bank/CC? Quite far fetched if I may say.

          • WookieMonster on 25/09/2022 - 10:26
            +1

            @justwii:

            You earn Points for each transaction on your Card Account unless the transaction is ineligible for a reason set out in Clause 3.2. Points will be deducted when a transaction is refunded or reversed.

            When I read this clause:

            • The first sentence indicates you will earn points on a transaction made on the Card Account (i.e. the Westpac credit card that earns Altitude Rewards points) unless it is ineligible to earn points.

            • The second sentence (which is the one you point out) only makes references to a refund or reversal of a transaction. It does not specifically reference a transaction made originally on the Card Account, which implies that any transaction where the funds of the refund is processed onto a Westpac credit card earning Altitude Rewards points will accordingly have points deducted, regardless of whether the original transaction took place on the same Westpac credit card. You could argue that the reference of a transaction is in the context of the definition of a transaction in the previous sentence (i.e. a transaction on your Card Account), but I would argue that the absence of on your Card Account in the second sentence means that the definition of a transaction in this sentence reverts to a broader definition (i.e. any transaction).

            Look, ultimately, no one is going to care about how a random person/monster like me on an internet forum interprets the terms and conditions of a credit card rewards program. What is more important in any formal complaint to the credit card issuer (or AFCA) is how you (the cardholder) interpret the terms, as well as the evidence you provide in said formal complaint to back up your position. Even if the terms and conditions relevant to you is extremely clear in reversing points for any refund transaction (regardless of whether the original transaction took place on your credit card), if you fire off a complaint to AFCA, a credit card issuer may make a goodwill gesture to you to keep you happy, even if they still think you are in the wrong.

      • CheapskateQueen on 25/09/2022 - 08:41
        +1

        in your example, the first credit card didn't have a points scheme. ok, let's say that's true.

        how do you think it should work IF the purchase was on a CC WITH points? Do you think you should get to keep the points from the purchase "because the card is closed and I've already used them"?

        • justwii on 25/09/2022 - 13:54

          I think they should have a clever system to trace back whether the original transaction did award any points and either do nothing or reverse those points accordingly. But if they don't have such system in place, don't blame the victim.

          • CheapskateQueen on 25/09/2022 - 16:51

            @justwii: so your answer is yes you expect to keep the benefit of the points already used on a card now closed

  • dragonos81 on 24/09/2022 - 20:22
    +6

    If they ask me for a card to refund I always give them my debit card … usually nobody checks if it's the same card used for the purchase. If someone asks, just tell them you canceled the other card.

    • askbargain on 24/09/2022 - 20:27
      +2

      there are retailers with pos terminals that do check for the same card number. better hope you have an excuse then :)

      • stirlo on 24/09/2022 - 23:23
        +6

        "Oh sorry, what was the card number again? I must have paid on a different one"

    • PissLUR on 24/09/2022 - 21:28

      This. Debit card for the win.

    • daanish on 25/09/2022 - 07:50
      +2

      Refund back onto Google/Apple Pay and they don't even see what card you're using. Google also masks the card numbers so you can say that the last 4 digits on the receipt are a security thing and this is actually the same card. I've done this a few times when I've had a substantial refund and wanted to keep the points.

      • justwii on 25/09/2022 - 13:50

        Great advice! This is the solution for future reference.

  • Coops1 on 25/09/2022 - 07:50
    +10

    If your going to refund a transaction to a different card, which your not suppose to do, never put it back on a points earning card. Lesson learnt.

    • justwii on 25/09/2022 - 13:49

      Yeah, but I don't think its justified.

      • pjetson on 25/09/2022 - 19:35
        +1

        Basically, the banks are saying that if you get any refund to a points-linked card, we'll take back the points that you would have accrued from the purchase that is being refunded, even if you didn't actually accrue any points. That's their rules, so it doesn't matter if it's justified or fair.

  • pjetson on 25/09/2022 - 08:39

    Did you earn any points on the original transaction?

    • justwii on 25/09/2022 - 13:48

      No, that original card was not a rewards CC.

  • BigBirdy on 25/09/2022 - 09:04

    So can you buy using a rewards card, but refund to a non-rewards card, and get free points?

    • justwii on 25/09/2022 - 13:48

      Some loophole you've found!

    • povertytrap on 25/09/2022 - 13:53

      Yes.

  • HelpMeiCantSee on 25/09/2022 - 09:54
    +2

    Did Pam change her username again?

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