Neighbour Replacing 2m Sliding Gate with 3.5x5m Roller Door - Doesn't Have Permit

Hey all,

I purchased a tiny 1 bedroom unit with a very small (2x6m) outdoor courtyard 18 months ago. My courtyard gets some nice arvo sun from about Oct - Feb and was primarily the reason I bought this unit.

I spent 8 months designing and renovating the outdoor space to be able to fit a small outdoor studio pod to WFH, erected permanent hammock poles, a clothesline, BBQ and a small outdoor setting all specifically designed and oriented so they have access to the limted light that I do get. I've also had to remove and plant a protected tree as part of a permit condition witin my courtyard which cost me several thousand $. The tree was chosen specifically so I could prune it to allow access and sunlight through to my courtyard, and for it's location with limited acces to sunlight etc. I had to make many design iterations to my space to make it work, enable access to sunlight and to keep it within council regulations. This included reducing the size of my WFH studio pod as it wasnt allowed to form part of the fenceline etc.

However I just got home and my neightbour has put up some big 4m poles right on the fence line of his property right next to mine, and now I have just realised its going to be a big 5m wide, 3.5m high roller garage door!! This structure is going to block a about half the already limited sunlight to my property, and will mean that the protected tree I've had to plant will be in perpetual shadow.

He needs a permit for this roller door and he doesn't have one (I've checked and well aware of the rules having gone through it myself last year replacing my own fence and gate) but not sure what to do now? Best to try chat to him? Or just call Council enforcement?

Is it likely Council would simply fine him and allow him to continue? Or require him to go through the permit process which will allow me to object and shadowing / alternative locations for the door might be taken into consideration? He is on a large block and the roller door could be relocated several meters to the west where it wouldnt cast shadowing into my courtyard.

Photo of my courtyard and the two poles he's erected over his sliding gate where the roller door is going up: https://ibb.co/3WvJkfb

Update: Submitted the request to Council to investigate last night with photos, measurements, reasoning on how it will impact me including dropping water into my property (we are in a flood zone too), dropping stuff onto my clothes lines, with shadow diagrams and suggested alternative location / height which wont impact me or anyone else. I submitted it assuming I wouldn't see him before the weekend to discuss in person and he'd complete it over the weekend (and I'm planning to be away).

He rocked up early this morning to do some more work on it, I wasnt going to say aything, but then I overheard him gloating with a neighbour who passed by how he got the roller doors for free and saying how he had a scissor lift lined up to put it up over the weekend. So I went out to talk to him, hoping to save him the time/money/effort of potentially pulling the whole thing down rather than just the poles.

As expected he was hostile and unreasonable claiming he didn't need a permit and he knew because he is a builder, didn't believe me about my own permit/tree requirement etc. Tried claiming it wouldn't impact me at all even after showing him the giant shadows of the poles covering my courtyard, just completely denying it. Eventually left in a huff saying he was going down to council to get a permit today (not possible). Started pointing out roller doors across the laneway asking if they all had permits lol. I just said, yeah, probably.

I assumed he'd know it was me who dobbed him in confrontation or not as it really only impacts me so figured it was worth a shot to save him time/money over the weekend and having to hire a scissor lift again and pull it down and move it over etc. But I'm sure he wont see it that way of course.

Update #2. He returned, obviously unable to get a permit. Still angry he started saying I have to compromise and let him continue. I said I was willing to compromise so lets talk.

His first "Compromise" was to build it where it was at the same height otherwise he would plant trees all along my fenceline out of spite. lol. I told him that's not a compromise, and if he watns to do that then theres nothing I can do about it, but at least I'd have some nice trees and not a garage door eyesore.

He also tried claiming he spent $8k on the roller doors before I pulled him up on his bullshit saying I heard him say he got it for free… This was the first time he stopped being hostile. lol.

Said I'd be willing to withdraw my complaint if he reduced the height to 2.4m total which is the legal requirement. Obviously it wasn't going to work as he wants to be able to drive his van into the property. So we got out the measuring tape and measured it up, found the height that allowed him to get it in (without the roof racks loaded up) which put the brackets at 2.5m rather than 3.4m or so (so top of the roller door will still reach about 2.9m or so, so still very much illegal without a permit).

I said it wasn't ideal, and I'd like him to cap it on my side to prevent water and debris going all over my property and clothes line etc. but I'd compromise, agree and let council know we came to an agreement. I also said I couldn't control what happened from Council's side though, as it was still illegal, didn't have a permit, they're already aware. I suggested he waits until he has a permit as it may still need to be moved or not granted a permit etc… but he said he would continue any way and install it tomorrow. I just said ok, but if you had have talked to me first we could have avoided all this, to which he kinda begrudgingly agreed. Ended up having a chat about other stiuff for 10 mins or so and seemed calm finally.

I sent an email to council letting them know we had reached an agreement, with some photos and measurements of where the brackets would be etc.

He's now cutting the brackets and moving them to the agreed upon height.

Interesting to see if council follows it up.

Comments

  • I think there is value in giving your neighbour the benefit of the doubt and assume they were oblivious to how this would impact you. Discuss with them calmly and see if you can come to a solution that works for you. If you find face-to-face discussions difficult, write a calmly worded letter explaining the facts and what resolution you desire. If they refuse to compromise then let them know of the rules they have broken and how much more painful (and expensive) it will be for them once council gets involved.

    • Yeah I think I have decided this is the best approach. Although he is going to have to either reduce the height by 1m, or relocate the door at least 2m further west. This will still block a little light but would be a compromise I'm happy with. However as he has obviously spent a whole weekend welding up and erecting the poles I don't have high hopes he will be into it…

    • Oh, also, he doesn't live at the property, its just a back block where he keeps some building materials and a small garden etc. Rental house in the front half. So getting a letter to him will be difficult. I need to try catch him in person.

  • +2

    Our neighbour just put up a 10m long by 3m wide by 4m high amphitheatre roof off their back tiled roof with no council approval. Not connected to storm water just runs onto existing roof, last heavy rains the gutter on the existing roof wouldn't take it and water ran behind eaves and into the house. Council knows about it and has seen photos but won't do jack.

  • +2

    A friend once built a deck without a permit. It looked great. He got a knock on the door by a council inspector asking if he had a permit for the deck. He asked "do I need one?". Inspector "not any more… Now you need a report from a structural engineer regarding the structure so I don't issue an order for you to tear it down". Getting a structural engineer after the fact to certify something is probably more expensive than a fine.

    If this is a roller door… That's going to be ugly. If it's a sliding gate, the posts will probably get chopped and capped later.

    • +1

      more expensive than a fine.

      They'll also need to tear it down without an engineer's report.

    • +2

      Yeah I was going to deck my small courtyard, but couldn't because its too close to the fence line (and knew they required a permit), one of the many compromises to my original ideas I had to make to comply with regs.

  • +1

    The neighbour needs a permit as its over 2.7m and sitting on the fence line. Talk to them first but i doubt they will remove as they have already spent money on it. Call council next and start the process, you might need to go all the way to the tribunal.

    • +1

      Height limit here one fenceline is only 2m without a permit. 2.4m for other structures within 1.4m of fence line but they cant be permanent structures (i,e. temp garden sheds are ok). These poles are 4m and the roller door looks like it'll be sitting at 3.5m.

  • +5

    I tried to be nice to my neighbour once with a smokey fireplace to stop him using poorly dried wood &/or using it at all (he had other heat sources). He did next to nothing. So I got council involved. He stopped burning wood. I couldn't give two shits if he was upset

    • +1

      Yeah we had some bloke over the back burning this treated wood during winter, it stank and produced thick smoke. Spoke to him and he continued so called the council and he stopped.

    • Wow what state are you in? Here in vic they don’t do shit all for wood burning smoke.

  • +1

    I spent 8 months designing and renovating the outdoor space to be able to fit a small outdoor studio pod to WFH, erected permanent hammock poles, a clothesline, BBQ and a small outdoor setting all specifically designed and oriented so they have access to the limted light that I do get. I've also had to remove and plant a protected tree as part of a permit condition witin my courtyard which cost me several thousand $. The tree was chosen specifically so I could prune it to allow access and sunlight through to my courtyard, and for it's location with limited acces to sunlight etc. I had to make many design iterations to my space to make it work, enable access to sunlight and to keep it within council regulations. This included reducing the size of my WFH studio pod as it wasnt allowed to form part of the fenceline etc.

    Nothing is permanent in life. Looks like you have made significant amount of decisions based on certain things that can change without your control and I'm sorry you're facing this issue.
    I guess if you're sure neighbour doesnt have permit then you can get some advice from council or if you are in good terms with neighbour, talk to them? But given they have already started doing this, it might be too late and you will end up being the bad guy. I'd personally seek council's advice and move on with my life and make different arrangements to the changes I've done in backyard, etc. It's not worth carrying so much stress on our shoulders that is beyond our control.

    • +4

      Cheers, however I did also design it knowing that nothing could legally be built there over 2.4m without a permit, so the likelihood of a structure (legally) being built here was pretty much zero. The only thing I considered might be put there which might block the sun would be if he planted a tree there, however its concrete and his entryway, so again, slim to none and would be years before a tree would block out light etc. Even so, a tree I'd have accepted as I'd at least get something nice to look at.

      Spoke with building department at Council already and they confirmed they'd have had him build it 2m to the west to avoid overshadowing and his block is large enough to do it. They've left it up to me whether to pursue it and have them investigate officially.

      • +7

        If the Council already told you this, I'd let the council pursue it. Unlikely that the neighbour will change just because you ask.

        You should be able to enjoy your backyard.

  • OP, I'm sorry I'm not able to assist you with your enquiry, instead I have one of my own.

    Which Studio Pod did you buy? looking into those myself, I saw the photo's but I'd love a product link!

    • +1

      I custom designed it for the space and just engaged a builder. The space is too small for an off the shelf solution, which is why it cost quite a lot more than some larger premade designs :(

      • +2

        Ahh no sweat! thanks for the reply and well done, neat little pod.

        Report your neighbour's activity to the council imo.

      • +1

        If you're happy to share..

        How much does something like that cost to build? How much cheaper would have been an off the shelf solution.. looks like a solid mini WFH pod, I quite like that its detached from the house.

        • +1

          Was a bit under 10k prefabricated and built off-site and then bought in on a truck and positioned. Has power, smart switches etc. I just plug it into my extremal power outlet I had installed. I may have been able to find someone to build it cheaper, but was short on time and had to coincide with the fence being erected and the guy I engaged had built a few office pods during lockdown etc. I also designed it in 3D and provided plans etc. Might cost a bit to get someone to do that for you if you don't have the skillset I imagine. It's technically a portable structure, 2.4m high and under the SQm limit so doesnt require a permit in this instance.

  • +1

    Report it

  • If this photo is facing west and the roller door is in line with the fence on the west left hand side its not going to be a problem. However down the track he could built a carport etc down the track from the roller door along the fenceline to the right and that could cause significant shade. Best to send a snap send solve in

    • The fence line doesn't directly west, its angles towards the north about 11 degrees or so. I manage a project where I have access to accurate planning tools, 3D data and accurate shadow analysis software and can confirm the shadows cast from the roller door will impact my access to sunlight from about mid Oct - mid Feb. I've already tested the shadowing and can confirm that the roller door will impact my sunlight from about 1pm onwards. In Particular, the tree in the photo will be in perpetual shadow from after midday, where as it receives several hours of sunlight without the roller door there now. The shadowing will also impact my and reduce the sunlight in the courtyard starting from about 1pm and gets worse as the day goes on.

      • Also, why mount a garage door with a 3m opening if you weren't planning to be able to park a 3m high vehicle inside along the fence line?

        • Good question. This laneway is super narrow and ends at a really tight L junction Its so narrow that you cant even fit a large car/van down it, let alone a large/tall truck of some kind. It looks like he has goten the roller door 2nd hand, its pretty old looking. Think he probably just picked it up free or cheap and thought he'd just throw it up because he can.

  • +3

    Just report him to council and get them to deal with it. Better and less costly now than when he's finished. The expenses on already completed works is on him given the lack of permit.

  • +1

    When you asked the council if they had a permit, wouldn't they want to follow this up anyway?
    I would have thought that someone wouldn't ring & ask if their neighbour had a permit for something that didn't exist & this would be a red flag to the council to investigate even if you didn't report it as such.

  • +4

    Op you don’t have to justify anything to the masses. He’s in the wrong. Let him face the consequences. You shouldn’t be put out in any way by his actions.

  • I wouldnt talk to the neighbour and just complain to the council anonymously
    Speak to him he wont do sht since he already spent that much and when the council comes u will have to deal with his crap till one of you guys move.

  • If he applied for a permit, he would most likely be approved via council - especially if he can show some kind of security requirement and/or disability/ease of road access to his property. I have done similarly in the inner west of Sydney even though the garage door was technically not within council guidelines

  • +1

    Makes me laugh at this is what society has come to. Tiny box on a once 1/4 acre block as people are crushed closer and closer together. This is the end result, my pod! lol

  • +1

    Act FAST - complain to Council, ask them to inspect and stop work but be sure to be logical and give specific reasons why it impacts you.
    Once it is up - far more likely he will be able to leave it there.
    Whenever I've seen Councils intervene - they will happily stop incomplete works from happening, but are reluctant to require people to tear completed things down - more likely they threaten with a fine (maybe issue it, maybe just a warning first) and ask them to seek approvals

  • +4

    Does 99% of the investigation, including data modelling, checking regulations and permits with council, only to check with OzB to ensure it's ok to proceed with final 1%. Lol.

    • Haha, yeah, the question was more about what the likely outcome would be if I reported him (need to pull it down/move it, or he'll just get a fine and continue etc.) and whether it's worth trying to talk to him first or officially report him to council without talking to him.

      • +1

        The council did say they would likely permit a couple of metres over, so get them to enforce that. He should've asked them first, but he still gets his roller door. You get your sunlight.

        • Yeah that's what they said the second time I called (after posting this) to prod further about potential outcomes if I were to pursue it. They said to make an offical complaint I need to send it in writing. I said I would try talk to him first.

          • @SkMed: But after they get a fine, they get an approval and permit, then you lose your sun anyway?

            • +1

              @jerjergege: If OP acts before it is completed, they may not get a fine, but may need to move the location to get approval as indicated.

  • What happens after complaint to council, they may not have a permit now, but after the fine they get it approved?

    What would you do then?

    • That was exactly my queston, whether they will just get a fine/permit and be allowed to continue on, or they will force him to relocate it. Sounds like they may force him to relocate it.

      • They could force them to take it down best case for you, or find a way how he could legalise this. They might send someone in to check and approve

      • That's what I mean, just because he doesn't have a permit now, doersn't mean he can't have it there after he gets a permit.
        Worst case scenario you don't have sun.

        Middle ground he has to relocate it 1.2 meters away from boundary.

        Best case scenario he relocates it further?

        Usually for these small items to do with fences, they approve it… Especially this is a laneway rear of the property.

        I know for illegal builds its a hit or miss, you have to file for a "Request a Regulation 51 statement" from the council to basically never ask you to demolish said illegal builds.

  • Can you contact the councillor for your area and get them to pursue it? That's what I did for an inconsiderate neighbour trying to run an noisy industrial business out of his backyard. The councillor filed the complaint under his name so my identity was never revealed AFAIK.

  • Council are usually understanding and tends to find agreed mutual grounds. If I was your neighbour and the intention is to still not apply permit, I will erect it anyway and deal with the council later.

    At most the council will request an engineering report any fence above 2m, at least for mine.

  • Let those who have not sinned cast the first stone.
    By the way, the milk bar called. They want their milk create back.

  • FYI, here are a couple photos from mid afternoon today showing the limited sunlight I get in my courtyard. Can clearly see the shadows from the poles he's already erected. The red showing approximately the shadow the roller door is going to cast once completed. The overshadowing will be worst in Dec & Jan, similar to this in Nov & Feb & slightly overshadowing in Late Oct & Early March. The rest of the year this courtyard is in complete shadow and I have no other outdoor space. So you can see how much the roller door will impace my outdoor space.

    https://ibb.co/CJyqyp5
    https://ibb.co/Wx5TdLJ

    • The shadow doesn't seem to be impacting your pod… What's the issue?

      • It will shade the pod at certain times/angles, this is just where it was yesterday for an exampt. It's currently shading the council protected tree, my clothesline, my small seating area and the area exactly where my hammock goes. The entire courtyard was designed and oriented to maximise the space and access light.

        • my clothesline

          Think you should be more worried about the clothes getting wet in the rain. If the neighbour is putting up the roller door, you can go ahead and build a cover (pergola type) to cover your clothesline.

          The blocking of sun light is a bit of a pain, but TBH, I can't sit for more than a few minutes in the sun. It's too strong.

          • @RSmith: I suffer from seasonal affective disorder and vitamin D deficiency, and don't easily burn, so I look forward to the sunner months and seek sunlight whenever and however I can. The whole reason I bought this unit as I saw the potential for a small sunny outdoor space and I could JUST fit a hammock across to get some sun from midday until afternoon. I'd probably have made my office pod longer and gotten rid of the hammock if I knew my access to sunlight would be blocked.

            I was actually wondering if the roller door might also drop dirt and stuff onto my clothesline, as my clothes line is right below the end of the roller door 🤔

            • @SkMed: Alright, so looks like your only option is to complain to the council and hope for the best.

  • I'd never heard of studio pod before, but looking online they seem fairly reasonably cheap, now I want one. Can't believe I have had my desk setup in a bedroom throughout the whole of covid when I could have my own personal office away from the wife and kids!

    • Yeah, they're great! My unit is only 35sqm, but I saw the potential to get one built for the small courtyard and was the reason I bought the unit. Off the shelf pre-fab designs are relatively cheap now, but i needed a custom solution do to the small space.

  • Any news OP?

    • No, I've been waiting several days for him to return so I can talk with him and he hasnt been back to the property. Although I'm considering just going to Council as I'll be away over the weekend and its when he is likely to return and continue work, so looking like I wont be able to discuss with him at this rate unless he happes to come today or tomorrow morning.

      • +1

        I think I agree with other comments, there's to much sunk cost and effort for neighbour to likely want to amicably change their plan, and confronting them could make it worse. Do you believe there is genuinely opportunity to resolve the matter privately?

  • +1

    Update: Submitted the request to Council to investigate last night with photos, measurements, reasoning on how it will impact me including dropping water into my property (we are in a flood zone too), dropping stuff onto my clothes lines, with shadow diagrams and suggested alternative location / height which wont impact me or anyone else. I submitted it assuming I wouldn't see him before the weekend to discuss in person and he'd complete it over the weekend (and I'm planning to be away).

    He rocked up early this morning to do some more work on it, I wasnt going to say aything, but then I overheard him gloating with a neighbour who passed by how he got the roller doors for free and saying how he had a scissor lift lined up to put it up over the weekend. So I went out to talk to him, hoping to save him the time/money/effort of potentially pulling the whole thing down rather than just the poles.

    As expected he was hostile and unreasonable claiming he didn't need a permit and he knew because he is a builder, didn't believe me about my own permit/tree requirement etc. Tried claiming it wouldn't impact me at all even after showing him the giant shadows of the poles covering my courtyard, just completely denying it. Eventually left in a huff saying he was going down to council to get a permit today (not possible). Started pointing out roller doors across the laneway asking if they all had permits lol. I just said, yeah, probably.

    I assumed he'd know it was me who dobbed him in confrontation or not as it really only impacts me so figured it was worth a shot to save him time/money over the weekend and having to hire a scissor lift again and pull it down and move it over etc. But I'm sure he wont see it that way of course.

    • Good luck. Hope the situation resolves satisfactorily for both parties.

    • Great outcome for you since he will confer with the Council. You were trying to be kind, good on you.

    • +2

      Update #2. He returned, obviously unable to get a permit. Still angry he started saying I have to compromise and let him continue. I said I was willing to compromise so lets talk.

      His first "Compromise" was to build it where it was at the same height otherwise he would plant trees all along my fenceline out of spite. lol. I told him that's not a compromise, and if he watns to do that then theres nothing I can do about it, but at least I'd have some nice "spite" trees and not a garage door eyesore.

      He also tried claiming he spent $8k on the roller doors before I pulled him up on his bullshit saying I heard him say he got it for free… This was the first time he stopped being hostile. lol.

      Said I'd be willing to withdraw my complaint if he reduced the height to 2.4m total which is the legal requirement. Obviously it wasn't going to work as he wants to be able to drive his van into the property. So we got out the measuring tape and measured it up, found the height that allowed him to get it in (without the roof racks loaded up) which put the brackets at 2.5m rather than 3.4m or so (so top of the roller door will still reach about 2.9m or so, so still very much illegal without a permit).

      I said it wasn't ideal, and I'd like him to cap it on my side to prevent water and debris going all over my property and clothes line etc. but I'd compromise, agree and let council know we came to an agreement. I also said I couldn't control what happened from Council's side though, as it was still illegal, didn't have a permit, they're already aware. I suggested he waits until he has a permit as it may still need to be moved or not granted a permit etc… but he said he would continue any way and install it tomorrow. I just said ok, but if you had have talked to me first we could have avoided all this, to which he kinda begrudgingly agreed. Ended up having a chat about other stiuff for 10 mins or so and seemed calm finally.

      I sent an email to council letting them know we had reached an agreement, with some photos and measurements of where the brackets would be etc.

      He's now cutting the brackets and moving them to the agreed upon height.

      Interesting to see if council follows it up.

      • I have to compromise and let him continue

        But you do not.

        He also tried claiming he spent $8k on the roller doors

        Like that's your fault.

        You are very nice. Well done. Keep us updated please.

  • +4

    Update 3: Neighbour installed the illegal roller door today with his 3 sons, but did so at the lower height thankfully. They dropped it on one of their necks and one had to go rest, or to hospital or something… I don't wish harm in anyone, but seems like karma to me.

    Overhead him in complete denial about everything I showed him yesterday, even saying he had no idea where I got the photo I showed him as if I'd Photoshopped it or something 😮‍💨 was tempted to invite them over for a beer at 5pm and explain to them how the sun works. You'd think a baby boomer wld have known how the sun works after 65+ years under the thing eh?

    Now in my hammock looking at the roller door rather than the clear views of the sky and trees I had prior. Glad I made him reduce it by almost 1m at least…. Also I overheard him saying his van might not actually fit at this height, dumbarse maybe didn't measure it properly, again, Karma.

    Let's hope karma strikes 3 times and council still comes and gets him to move it 🤣

    • +1

      Now in my hammock looking at the roller door rather than the clear views of the sky and trees I had prior.

      Photo please.

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